|Condoning Atheism.Page 10 of 25 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25)|
the arguments of atheism that a creator do not exist is the big lie. because creation is all about them, so it is either atheists have a problem with religious ideas and concepts (relationships) which translate as having a problem with accepting others notions of creation (re-creation). which translates as having a problem (and solution) with self-identity.
As usual, exiledbyabusers has provided a rambling, excessively wordy and barely coherent post, with a dash of nonsense.
First of all, "Creation" is a belief. That the universe was "created" is a belief. If you don't believe that the universe was "created", then you don't believe in a "creator". Second, that a god or gods created the universe is secondary in religious belief. There is no connection between there potentially being a creator and his name being Zeus, Odin or Jehovah other than what men have made up. And third, atheism is not a reaction to religion. Atheism is the state in which humans are born. No one is born with established religious beliefs. Saying atheism is a problem with religion which makes it a problem with self-identity is as moronic as saying that people who are not pedophiles have a problem with their sexuality, since they have a problem with what pedophiles do.
Posted: 4/14/2010 8:49:22 PM
Err.... I am sorry, ohwhynot, but with all due respect... how do you get to that conclusion, exactly? Are you suggesting that children raised to be exposed to no religious beliefs will fail to develop critical thinking? Or are you suggesting that it is not possible to teach someone critical thinking without exposing them to people's religious beliefs
Not at all! More simply stated, if you don't give kids something to ponder, how can you expect them to be capable of critical thought? We all have a belief system, whatever we choose to call it. Belief in freedom, belief in the good or bad inherent in humanity, etc. We have no choice but to expose our children to our beliefs, as actions speak louder than words. Do you think that those who think that all theists are idiots don't pass this belief on to their children, and render at least some of them incapable of seeing it any other way? It's not any different.
I was merely trying to point out that not teaching a child anything at all about beliefs, even if they be the beliefs of others, is no different from teaching them not to think. One can decide to believe in evolution, but if that is the only thing they expose their children to, how is that any different, as it relates to critical thought? In any case, my use of the term beliefs wasn't meant for only religious beliefs. Children who are taught that women are lesser, or that blacks are dangerous, with no exposure to the alternatives are just as hindered, and they believe.
The idea that God may exist IS an idea; it's about how it is presented. This is, btw, my problem with much of what has been posted in this thread. There seems to be a complete lack of recognition that the majority of those who do believe in God are not intolerant, not condescending & not judging everyone else as unworthy idiots. The proponents of atheism have, however, shown themselves to be so. Is it so hard for anyone who doesn't believe in God to see that the majority of those who do believe in a god don't even practice a particular faith with any regularity? There is a vast difference between a belief and a forced way of life. There are many people who hold beliefs that they don't force on others, and who are able to debate intelligently, without simply dismissing their opponents as ignorant. There are scores of people, myself included, who believe in God, even practice a religion, but in a way that makes sense to them. We all choose to take what we want, or need from participation of any kind, and to assume that all who attend church believe that Mary was a virgin, for example, is ludicrous. It doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, or that the Bible teaches hate, it means we are tolerant, and recognize the fact that translation of writings in another language, interpreted & presented by a business (yes, most of us realize that churches are business entities, involved in fund raising) need not be taken literally in order for good to be taken from them. That is critical thought, if you ask me.
Posted: 4/14/2010 8:56:37 PM
I have never read the bible" yet you are a Catholic? How is that? Your telling us that your a Catholic that has never read the bible, I think that might not be how it works, to be a real Catholic I just think you might have had to open the bible a few times lol.
That is my problem with you, freetime. Who the hell are you to judge anyone?! I have no idea where you got the idea that it a requirement of Catholicism to read the Bible, but you are obviously in need of education. Your constant need to point out your perceived faults of others speaks more about your character than it does anyone else's. I don't have to explain to you the fact that my not having read the entire Bible is not the same as having "opened the book a few times". Quite frankly, you're a jerk, and that has nothing at all to do with my belief in God; I only need exercise critical thought to come to that conclusion. Unless you acquire the necessary skills to debate on the basis of intelligence, please refrain from responding to my posts, and I will happily continue on as if you cease to exist.
Posted: 4/15/2010 3:53:17 AM
|Q: Who the hell are you to judge anyone?|
A: I am freetime2bme and when you said "I have never read the bible" and you are a "Catholic" in your post and you talk about the bible in other posts, well you are "quite frankly" not telling the whole truth.
"I have no idea where you got the idea that it a requirement of Catholicism to read the Bible"http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04215b.htm
Confirmation does call for bible study for you debating this "speaks more about your character than it does anyone else's." But you said " I was "indoctrinated", attending church, Catholic school, even, and what I was taught about God" in this very thread; so we know you have read at least some of the book you said you never read. Can you say busted lol.
" please refrain from responding to my posts" I will post on what I feel like posting on, this is how the forums work. If you don't think you will enjoy my posts feel free to skip them or don't that too is how the forums work.
Posted: 4/15/2010 9:54:47 AM
|^ ^ ^ ^ Could we have that again, in coherent english?|
Posted: 4/15/2010 12:19:26 PM
And what exactly does a fraud like EdgarCayce have to do with atheism?
Posted: 4/15/2010 8:15:31 PM
Why not read the bible before you stick up for it - which you DO seem to be doing? And read it with critical and objective mind set - you seem to be already decided about it beforehand. Just a suggestion.
I have not read all of it, but I am familiar with some of the contents. I could not possibly say what is the main aspect. It comes from so many sources, which you can tell without even knowing so. Some of it are real gems and indeed its message is love. Some of it is obsolete junk that would be found very offensive by todays standards: http://bible.cc/1_timothy/2-12.htm
The bible as we know it was finalised by a pagan roman emperor who was first and foremost a good politician. 300 years after the alleged Christ's death, it was finalised what can make it into bible and what cannot. And those decisions were politically based
I am not "decided" about the Bible, the Koran etc., and I never said I was. Nor have I said that I have no knowledge of it at all; that was a leap (perhaps not of faith) by another poster who assumes that all theists(or at least those with Catholic affiliation of any kind) base their belief on the Bible. Most theists base their belief on their faith, whether it related to upbringing, study, critical thought (YES, thought & logic!). Frankly, I am tired of this argument, and of defending what seems to me to be apparent to anyone with gray matter. The majority believe in a god; this belief does not make them ignorant, radical advocates of destruction, or incapable of rational thought or critical judgment. We each have a choice to agree, disagree, find fault with the logic of arguments both for & against the existence of God, but they certainly exist. They continue to be taught as part of philosophy & logic, thereby proof that there are logical arguments both for & against the existence of God. Logic doesn't result in scientific proof, that doesn't mean it is absent. I have no desire nor need to convince anyone to agree with me ( I am acquainted with the parts of the Bible that teach us not to judge), my participation is aimed at pointing out that not everyone who disagrees with someone else is an idiot, and & I am sick of hearing those on this thread who insist that those who believe in anything that lacks proof purely of a scientific nature makes them an unworthy intellectual advocate. Simple.
Posted: 4/16/2010 5:34:18 AM
|" am not "decided" about the Bible, the Koran etc., and I never said I was. Nor have I said that I have no knowledge of it at all; that was a leap (perhaps not of faith) by another poster "|
"I have never read the bible" It is a good idea to question things, often time it is the only way to see the truth. In this case the truth is that your post are not true at all.
"another poster who assumes that all theists(or at least those with Catholic affiliation of any kind) base their belief on the Bible. Most theists base their belief on their faith, whether it related to upbringing, study, critical thought (YES, thought & logic!)."
I don't know were you got the data or did your studies to jump to this, but if there was no bible or no koran I can tell you there would be far fewer people that call themselfs theists. That is just putting a different name one the same old thing lol. You can call yourself a theist, but you got your ideas via your cult studies in the catholic church even if you never read the bible while you were there like you said.
Posted: 4/17/2010 10:07:57 PM
|I do not defend this conversation, nor any religion. If you were to read back, what I defend is the right of anyone to choose what to believe without being called an idiot for doing so. The majority of my comments were directed at another poster. Atheists don't offend me in the least. Those who look down upon anyone who disagrees with them, and espouses their own beliefs as facts do. |
In that same vein, the fact that arguments for & against the existence of God exist & are taught as part of philosophy & logic doesn't prove any argument, and I didn't say it did. What it IS evidence of is the fact that one need not be lacking in logical capabilities or rational thought in order to believe, as has been stated by another poster to whom I was responding.
Such beliefs are actually very common, so every single child is exposed to them. It is then the process of the personal maturing and development, which people undertake to greater or lesser or hardly any degree where beliefs are challenged.
Insofar as the majority are theists, so then every child is exposed to this as well. Exposure to, and teaching of, is a far cry from brainwashing & teaching kids that there is only one belief which makes you intelligent. Again, this was my point, and I quite agree with you, as opposed to those who feel that exposing kids to beliefs renders them incapable of critical thought. I don't think that it does, I was merely drawing a parellel.
I do feel that religion is a personal matter, and often better off not being argued. This thread, at its inception, was about disbelief in a god, not about religion at all. Pointing out that I was raised Catholic was not intended to broach the subject of religion. I mentioned it as a means to argue that just because that was so, it didn't mean that I am ignorant, unable to think logically, or lesser than an atheist, as was insinuated (actually, fairly blatantly stated) by another. I don't believe that atheists are such, either, nor Protestants, Jews, etc. One's religion or lack of same is not their identity, it is merely one facet.
My statement about theists who don't attend services regularly may seem odd, but it is true. Again, it was a response to the droning insistence that those who believe in God are close minded, zealous creatures, unable to think for themselves. It matters not upon what basis the belief stems, nor the practice of religion. Simply, belief is not, in & of itself, religion. A discussion surrounding religion IS different from a discussion regarding theism. You practice religion, and do so to varying degrees. Neither theism nor atheism is a practice.
Why do you feel the need to know why I participate in ANY thread? Or why I tire or arguing with someone in particular, especially when it is not you? I love debate, I enjoy logic. Simply, I grow tired of answering to inane drivel, and stated my intention not to respond to it. I hope that satisfies you, although you had nothing to do with my fatigue.
Posted: 4/20/2010 9:07:19 PM
|I believe that is true, to an extent. The Protestant Reformation came about as a result of "crimes" by the Catholic chrch, related to collecting monies for sacraments and other malpractices. I am not sure to what extent disagreement with a priests interpretation of the Bible affected the split, but I think it points to what has today become what is known as "cafeteria Catholics" (imo, among the healthiest of theists).|
Once again, though, the organization that is the Catholic church is worthy of a separate discussion, and not indicative of theism in general.
Contrary to what some may suggest, I am knowledgeable of the Bible, to an extent, and what I glean from it (or choose to utilize as a basis for daily living) is not of hatred, it is of love for fellow man, and the obligation to do what is right, even if it is not popular. It doesn't include belittling those who believe or think differently from me, or judging them as lesser beings. You'll never convince me, for example, that Gandhi was incapable of logic or critical thought (or you, CS, for that matter ) or didn't make it to heaven, and the majority of theists are likely to agree. The Bible is a book, theism is a belief, belonging to any religion is part of one's life, blind adherence to any organization, regardless of religious affiliation, is a choice to put aside critical thought & allow others to run your life. They are not the same, not in the least.
Posted: 4/21/2010 4:31:17 AM
|"Contrary to what some may suggest, I am knowledgeable of the Bible"|
If that "some" is you then you are right. Since in this thread you posted " have never read the bible". The idea that the bible " is not of hatred, it is of love for fellow man" is a big leap, because there is lots of hatred of other men in it, but if you are so knowledgeable of the bible with out even reading it you all ready know that.
"You'll never convince me, for example, that Gandhi was incapable of logic or critical thought or didn't make it to heaven". Mahatma Gandhi, the proponent of civil disobedience, was born a Hindu in 1869 and practiced Hinduism all his life. So you many believe he made it to heaven, but lots of christian and theists would reject the idea of a Hindu making it into heaven. I reject the idea, because there is no heaven to make it into, but others reject it because he was not a good christian man and being a good man does not cut it. There are rules lol.
"Bible is a book, theism is a belief" http://www.biblicaltheism.com/ a beleief many base only on the bible even if you do not; which would be easy for you since you never even read it, but are some how knowledgeable of it (just not shown in your posts).
Posted: 4/21/2010 6:53:30 AM
|Ok, which moderator allowed 'exiled the tin foil hat guy' back here? |
Pssssst hey exiled........they're watching you!!!!
Posted: 4/21/2010 9:31:09 AM
|"A discussion surrounding religion IS different from a discussion regarding theism. "|
Theism in the broadest sense is the belief in at least one God. To put it simply, theism is a belief in the existence of at least one god - nothing more, nothing less. So Berg the Viking who believed in many gods and that the souls of heroic soldiers killed in battle were brought to Valhalla by warrior maidens called Valkyries, was also a theist. Valhalla was the goal because is better then Hel or Niflheim, so it was good to die in battle. Timothy McVeigh professed his belief in "a god", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and never really picked it up, however he did maintain core beliefs; might be some one you can relate to more then Berg the viking because your starts in catholicism and then drifting away form it, is more similar, but as long as you believe in at least one god you are theist. Polytheism, monotheism and ditheism all qualify as theist beliefs. Like christians' when a born again christian looks at a catholic and thinks "not a real christian" some theists' do the same and say things like, "they are doing X,Y or Z so they are not true theist". The thing is what ever you call it all most every one that believes in a god or gods got there view from writings like the bible, koran or other religious writing or from churches, family members or their tribe or societal indoctrinations. No one is born a theist. So call it what you will, theism is just a different name for a belief in god or gods and has many of the same problems that go with any religious belief.
Posted: 4/21/2010 6:26:32 PM
So, I'd say it's a very good idea for the believers and non-believers to read the Bible..
Why not? Mythology is often interesting & entertaining. Personally, I find the Greek & Roman mythology more entertaining than the Judeo-Christian mythology.
Posted: 4/21/2010 9:27:21 PM
As in God given right? You can either stomp your foot about being called an idiot like a little girl or you can accept that is what these forums are like and deal with it. Do you have to read it? In the same way you interpret freetime's posts as "being called an idiot", I could interpret many of his other posts as "being called a statistically worse parent" based on my gender. It is upto me to read it or not, and to decide how i react to it. Anything that grinds you so much points to a weakness, in this case - insecurity and self-doubt. Disclaimer: this is not an attack on you. If I started going on about re-incarnation here, soul ages and what nots, I would probably also attract some comments. I could stomp my foot about it, but diddly shit is going to change. If religion is so personal, then why arent you just happy knowing your own? Why do you have to have it publicly approved?
I am not sure if you haven't read this thread, or why you single me out, but you seem to feel the need to point out my responses to others and generalize them. I never stomp my foot, perhaps because I have big feet & something might break..... I was answering another poster, who, if you were to read, referred to me as delusional. I am well aware of what one deals with in these forums, and interpretation is a far cry from actual stated contentions. I ask for no one's approval, but that doesn't mean that I sit idly by while someone runs roughshod over my words, using falsehoods to make their own points! Discussion regarding religion IS personal to me, but this isn't a discussion about religion, per se, it about theism/atheism.
As far as I know, brainwashing involves causing someone to give up their basic beliefs in order to have them adopt new ones, so, I remain steadfast in my contention.
My refusal to be personally attacked here or anywhere doesn't lend credence to your assertion that it would be beneficial to me to know why, as if my reaction to personal attack were somehow a flaw. I cal 'em as I see 'em, period.
I am not arguing with anyone about the Bible, or the reading of it. I may disagree that it is a book of hate, as I believe that it is a matter of what one chooses to take from it, but my stating thusly doesn't mean that I studied it in depth. Nor does it mean that I have read it in its' entirety, or not at all. Neither is required for me to assert that it is an interesting study. It seems that you & I agree on so many points, yet you seem to want to refute everything I say, without context. It might be beneficial to you to know why.
Posted: 4/22/2010 2:26:55 PM
there has not been any argument about whether or not Zeus or Ares exists or anything like that
!!!! Heretic !!!
You're right, let's not compare some of the outlandish stories of ancient mythologie with the Bible.
After all, the ancient mythologies have gods impregnating mortal women, and you wouldn't find something outlandish like that in the...oops, lets move on.
The ancient myths have Dionysus killed then brought back to life, you won't see people being raised from the dead in the Bible, would you?
Yeah, the Bible is so much more believable...
The Bible is a book that many want to pass as historical and a book of truths that can save all of humanity. It's the foundation of the beliefs and faiths of many. Whereas as Greek & Roman mythology is believed to be just myths. No one is expected to believe it
So the majority rules when it comes to faith? If enough people believe something, that automatically means it's right?
Posted: 4/22/2010 7:18:13 PM
|Thanks for your post, susan. I took something completely different, nearly the opposite of what you apparently did. That only exemplifies the difference between us that make us individuals, and leads me, at least, to a greater understanding of the notion that true communication not only is extremely difficult. it doesn't exist! I thought that what he was saying was that Greek mythology, since it presented as myth alone, is far less harmful. In any case, I do get the need of each of us to be understood & not attacked for our extrapolation of the words of others. Not necessarily a personal attack, but certainly personal, as far as interpretation. So, sincerely, thanks.|
Posted: 4/22/2010 9:36:08 PM
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, or if you just decided to flip the script on me
Actually, I was trying to lighten the thread with some humour; I've mentioned in other posts that I don't care what religious beliefs someone has, as long as they don't try to force them on me or others.
If you took it as a challenge to you, it wasn't meant as one. But since the thread title is about atheism I thought it may be worth pointing out that the Bible ( and the books of other major faiths) are viewed by atheists as just other mythologies.
Too many people push to have religion brought into the schools, when it really belongs in the temples/churches/synagogues etc etc & in the home. And almost every group that says they want to bring religion into the schools will get upset when it's proposed that the Wiccan, Buddhist or Hindu ( to name 3 examples) faiths be taught in class; because when they say religion should be in the schools they mean only Christianity.
Posted: 4/25/2010 7:19:19 PM
|Forgive me, pixie, but I fail to see how you're stating that I was "stomping my foot like a little girl" had anything at all to to with the essence of the topic. As I have stated, I react to someone who decries those who disagree with their opinion, particularly when they state their opinion as inarguable fact. |
As far as not accusing me of any flaw, but instead asking why I am defensive, well...
Anything that grinds you so much points to a weakness, in this case - insecurity and self-doubt. Disclaimer: this is not an attack on you.
I would call that pointing out a flaw, and frankly, that doesn't bother me, we all have flaws. Simply putting a disclaimer on your posts, however, doesn't mean that you didn't do it. As far as I am concerned, I was defending many here, not simply myself.
If religion is so personal, then why arent you just happy knowing your own? Why do you have to have it publicly approved?
I don't need my religious beliefs publicly approved in the least. As far as I am concerned, this thread isn't about religion, it's about belief in God, and I have many times pointed this out. To speak about those who believe in God, no matter their religion, as if there were all dimwits is ignorant & condescending, and that is what I have been reacting to, and grown tired of. My post that I no longer wish to entertain argument with/from someone so narrow minded & incapable of seeing things any way but their own had nothing at all to do with you. I don't see how that warrants your disagreement, as far as the essence of the argument. You disagree with my stated intention to no longer engage in "conversation" with someone whom I find asinine & offensive? And that is a concrete point? Really?
There is nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate, I quite enjoy it, actually, as it is often thought provoking. If that is your intention, though, please say so, rather than couching your intervention on what became a personal affront as the crux of the argument here.
Posted: 4/28/2010 6:28:35 PM
|^^^ actually, I'll forgive you because I'm generally a good person ( yes, atheists aren't evil/bad by definition) & not because you believe God says we have to forgive one another ( actually, from what I have read of the Bible, God isn't forgiving at all, it's His son that says to forgive & turnthe other cheek).|
Posted: 5/3/2010 8:12:15 PM
|Sometimes, pixie, it is merely out of frustration, frustration at the hard headedness of some who claim to have intelligence, yet can't see beyond their own agendas. There most certainly is a difference between a belief in God & blind adherence to a religious organization.|
That having been said, I do agree with much of what you contend, but I am human, and when someone irks me, I sometimes react. I admit I rather enjoy calling them out, and sometimes, I am hopeful that they will enable themselves to broaden their vision. My statement that I chose to ignore a specific poster really was no different than your statement of choice to disengage from a conversation you felt was getting defensive. Sometimes it is best to let sleeping dogs lie, agreed?
Posted: 5/3/2010 9:12:51 PM
the Bible ( and the books of other major faiths) are viewed by atheists as just other mythologies.
As is often said about the difference between an atheist and a Christian, the *ONLY difference (in regards to belief) is that the atheist just believes in one less god than the Christian does.
*"atheist" means just one of the two belief (yay/nay) defaults in regards to the existence of god(s), nothing more ...nothing less.
Baal, Jesus, Zeus, Ra, Mithra, ...same thing, the only difference is in the specific petitio principii fallacy required for belief.
Posted: 5/4/2010 12:45:55 PM
|Speaking of mythology, there are numerous websites available that show that the story of Jesus is simply a re-telling of the Egyptianmyth of Horus. Here are a couple examples.|
The Egyptian Horus Myth Parallels to the Christian Jesus Myth 1. Horus was the son of Seb, an earthly father 1. Jesus was the son of Joseph, an earthly father
2. Horus stayed with his mother until the age of twelve 2. Jesus stayed with his mother until the age of twelve
3. Between the ages of twelve to thirty there is no record of the life of Horus 3. Between the ages of twelve to thirty there is no record of the life of Jesus in the Gospels (Matthew/Mark/Luke/John/Acts)
4. At age thirty, Horus was baptized by Anup 4. At age thirty, Jesus was baptized by John
5. By his baptism Horus was transformed into the beloved and only begotten Son of the Father, the Holy Spirit, represented by a bird 5. By his baptism Jesus was transformed into the beloved and only begotten Son of the Father, the Holy Spirit, represented by a dove/bird
From a stone tablet discovered in Nineveh, Assyria, and dated 700 B.C., now housed in The British Museum, and referred to by British Museum officials as the Marduk's Ordeal tablet
<div class="quote">The Egyptian Horus Myth Parallels to the Christian Jesus Myth The Egyptian Horus Myth The Jesus Myth
1. The Annunciation of the Birth of Horus 1. The Annunciation of the Birth of Jesus
2. The Immaculate Conception/Impregnation of a Virgin by God(s) 2. The Immaculate Conception/Impregnation of a Virgin by God
3. The Birth of Horus 3. The Birth of Jesus
4. The Adoration of Horus by Three Kings/Magi Bearing Gifts 4. The Adoration of Jesus by Three Kings/Magi Bearing Gifts
Posted: 5/4/2010 12:57:16 PM
|There was some sort of quote, can't remember who it was attributed to, but it went something to the effect of:|
When you can tell me by what reasoning you discount all other gods as fictional, I can tell you why I discount yours.
I'm butchering the quote, but that was the gist. Anyone know the real quote and who it's from?
Posted: 5/4/2010 1:10:46 PM
|I believe you're talking about this quote:|
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
...Stephen F Roberts
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