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 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 26
Condoning Atheism.Page 2 of 25    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25)
Notwithstanding my own atheism, I'm all for a fair and balanced portrait of religions and the consequences of religious belief.

1. The religious have no monopoly on horrific mass violence. The regimes of the former Soviet Union, Khmer Rouge Cambodia, and the current People's Republic of China, have engaged in horrific acts of mass violence, which were quite specifically motivated by their militant atheism. The same could be said of virtually every religion I have looked at seriously.

2. With respect, OpenHeart928, it is difficult to take the following claim seriously: "Nothing in the Bible -- taken as a whole and in context -- says to go out and kill, start wars, etc."

The first problem is that you are arbitrarily determining what "as a whole" and "in context" means.

The second problem is that your claim is just inaccurate.

Let me cite Deuteronomy 25:

"17 “Remember what Amalek did to you on the way as you came out of Egypt, 18 how he attacked you on the way when you were faint and weary, and cut off your tail, those who were lagging behind you, and he did not fear God. 19 Therefore when the Lord your God has given you rest from all your enemies around you, in the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance to possess, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you shall not forget."

The fighting is mentioned again in Judges 3:13, in the Judgeship of Ehud, and again under Gideon, as the Amalekites allied with the Midianites (Judges 6:3, 6:33, 7:12). This enmity is also the background of the command of the Lord to Saul:

"2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." (1 Sam. 15:2-3).

Later on, we have Saul punished for not having completed the genocide of the Amalekites down to the last man, woman, infant and domestic animal. (Actually, I'm not quite sure why the Amalekite goats got off scot-free, but the L_rd moves in mysterious ways, I'm told.)

Since you insist on context, please explain for our benefit: what is the *context* in which we should read this very explicit mandate for **Total Genocide** of an ethnic group, right down to their domestic animals? What response would you have to an Israeli militant who insists the Palestinians are "Amalekites" and it's time to get on with G_d's work?

Now, let me be accused of hammering on Judaism and Christianity (both religions consider this text (or at least its original version) authoritative), similar material can be found in the "sacred" texts of many religions. This is just an extreme example.

The insistence on "context" accomplishes nothing.

Most religious texts are obvious palimpsests of wildly divergent texts written at different places and times, by different individuals, with no obvious reason for why they are put together, other than fiat.

Observant Muslims, by the way, consider what I just wrote to be heresy of the worst sort in reference to the Qu'ran, which according to every version of Islam with which I am familiar, is considered to be the divinely inspired work of one single individual, notwithstanding that vast passages of it look like they've been plagiarized from other works.

I gather the general Muslim answer is that the other works were corrupted over time. Muslims tend to get rather uncomfortable when asked whether they are personally confident about the accuracy of the isnads of the various hadith which they consider authoritative or not. Typically, anger at the line of questioning tends to end rational discussion. And I personally find Islam to be among the most rationalistic of faiths, notwithstanding it's distorted image in Western media.

EDIT POST: Wait, in the Muslims' defence, I forgot the insistence that the Prophet was supposedly illiterate. (Not sure that that's explicitly stated anywhere in the divinely-inspired/dictated-by-an-angel Qu'ran. I suspect it's a hadith. Q.E.D.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 27
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Posted: 11/10/2009 12:37:48 PM
"I have not seen any proof that there is no God. I haven't seen anything even close to proving that. All of you seem to have no problem with the fact that the matter that caused the big bang was just there, always. But you do have a problem believing God is just there, and has been. how is it any different?"

For one we know that matter exists for a start, it is here it is real. Then comes the theories on were the matter came from. One of them being that it was all ways here, your theory being god put it here and there are others. With your theory you have to explain were god came from and again it is he was all ways here. What is more plausible, matter was all ways in existence in some form or an other or there was an all powerful, all knowing all present entity that just was? Well for me that is an easy pick. I see people saying in the forums that Atheist do not believe in god because there is no proof. I do not reject a theory because of limited proof, you test the theory again and again just like we are doing today with the big bang. I do reject the god theory, because it is just so dumb (to me and lots like me any ways) add to it there is no way to test it. That theory has no more weight them this theory: all the matter that exists is there because I dreamed it and my dreams are different they transcend time and space, I therefore created all the matter with my dreams and I an responsible. Please send check of thanks to me, $5 and up will get you a special place in the after life. No way to prove or disprove, but some will call it a dumb theory. Are they bad for that? If not I can not be bad for saying the idea of a god is just dumb too.
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 28
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/10/2009 12:44:27 PM
Freetime, of course you are right, I am wrong. You have proven to me beyond a doubt that there is no God. Go in peace and prosper. (ThinkBoy, that was dripping with sarcasm)

One thing I have not done on this forum is call anyone's beliefs stupid or anyone dumb for believing it. That was you, just now. So your way of intolerance and hatred must be the better way. You win.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 29
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Posted: 11/10/2009 1:03:02 PM
"One thing I have not done on this forum is call anyone's beliefs stupid or anyone dumb for believing it. That was you, just now. So your way of intolerance and hatred must be the better way. You win. "

So will you be sending me the $5 check?
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 30
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/10/2009 1:35:11 PM
Yes I did and yes she was!
 Elmenreich
Joined: 9/23/2009
Msg: 31
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Posted: 11/10/2009 5:14:27 PM
Again...plausible to YOU. Not to me and many others. They don't make sense at all! A big bang created life....wow. ok. Well what put everything there to begin with? How did the stuff that went Bang get there? Um...that's right....no one KNOWS!!! It just happened....yeah ok.


You just don't understand the Big Bang. The Big Bang created matter/energy, not life. Life didn't begin until planets of second-generation stars were formed from the debris of supernovas.

The Big Bang Theory and the Continuous Creation theories have more weight because they are based on scientific observation, rather than pure superstition and legends. The idea that God created the World in seven days holds no more weight than the idea that the Earth is flat and that it lies upon an infinite stack of turtles, but it doesn't hold as much weight as a scientific theory.


what explosion have you ever known that CREATED?


Proton-antiproton annihilation, for one. It's a well-known phenomenon.
 Elmenreich
Joined: 9/23/2009
Msg: 32
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Posted: 11/10/2009 6:03:43 PM
Oh, I'm not as smart as all that. One time I got a book by Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose from the library and read it. The introduction said that you only needed a basic understanding of general relativity to learn something from the book. All I learned was that I didn't have even a basic understanding of general relativity. :(
 Elmenreich
Joined: 9/23/2009
Msg: 33
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Posted: 11/10/2009 8:46:02 PM

Speaking of which, have you looked at the science behind where a person's consciousness/soul goes at the moment of death? It's measured in perceived weight loss. If not, start with snopes so you know it's not an urband legend. http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp


No, silly. Snopes doesn't confirm that a soul weighs 21 grams; Snopes simply confirms that 100 years ago, some lunatic doctor came out with a report. In the 102 years since then, his results have never been duplicated. It was probably a hoax.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 34
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Posted: 11/10/2009 10:02:48 PM
[Some Jehovahs Witnesses recently left a copy of bible stories for children on my doorstep.
So i thought okkkk, i guess thats nice of them, spirituality is good for children, even though i have recently took initiation into the Dianic tradition and left Abrahamic religion behind, and normally do not care for the door to door religion salespeople.

So i handed my daughter the book, and told her why not read it out loud to her little brother, so they can both enjoy it.
Silly me, i thought thew book would be filled with sweet little things like "Jesus loves the children of the word" and stuff like that.
So my daughter approached me warily, book in hand, and said that the book is scary and she doesnt like it and that it will make Charles cry, she looked like she wanted to cry herse]

I will admit that I am curious to know how old your daughter is, and depending, why you would hand any child a book to read without perusing it yourself first?

Religion can be a difficult subject, and a personal one. Organized religion even more so. For me, I teach my children my beliefs, in increments that apply to their age, in order to be somewhat confident that they can make their own judgments. I will share that, having been schooled in Parochial schools my entire life, I feel that the sense of community that comes from participation in a "church", of any kind, is invaluable (and sorely lacking) in today's society, but I do believe that tempering one's interpretation of the interpretations of others with common sense and logic is the ultimate goal.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 35
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Posted: 11/11/2009 7:51:35 AM
"And the big bang THEORY has no more weight than your "dream" theory or God freetime."
fab-mom you need to hit the books, even if you do believe in the big bang, it is likely you do because as theories go it is one that has been tested again and again. http://www.helenair.com/lifestyles/article_d9a0f353-e659-57af-ac20-a01dbfb252ae.html There are lots and lots of links and data on how this theory has been tested giving it weight. Un like your god theory or my dream theory, the big bang theory has ways to test and so far so good.
To the posters they say atheist can not prove that there is no god; setting out to prove the none exisitance of something can not be proven, but it can be tested and so far he/she/it has not been found and lots of people have been looking, for something all present it does not look like a good theory, because no real eveidence has been found yet. We have found lots of problems in the texts people base their belief in god on, so many in fact some people/posters no longer believe in the bible or religon, but they still hold on to a believe in god. One more reason why I believe the OPs child is making the logical and correct pick. A child smarter the lots of the adults on POF, who knew lol.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 36
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Posted: 11/11/2009 8:47:34 AM
"PS- Unicorns are goats and through folk lore and story telling turned into what we now think of when someone says unicorn. The beautiful white horse with the single horn. So...yes, unicorns did indeed exist. Not as you picture it but that is your problem...not the unicorns."

How would you know how I picture unicorns? Did god tellyou? But it is funny you would get into folk lore when talking about your belief in god, because they have much alike. May be your god is a goat that got given beautiful high and might status after all the years of stories getting told. Is that how you picture it, because un like you I can't read minds.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 37
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Posted: 11/11/2009 8:54:32 AM
"Sorry freetime..the first part of that post was directed at you the second one was directed at that other guy...I can't even remember his name at this point. Sorry for the confusion."

I saw that post too, it was just an opertunity I could not pass up, the folk tails god tie in yep, I see how that could have started this whole mess. Can you?
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 38
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/11/2009 10:58:44 AM
*Pulls finger* Oh what the hey. It could be funny at least to watch some the hot air leave this gasbag.
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 39
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/11/2009 11:40:54 AM
CS, if you have read any of the posts I have written, I am a believer, but I also admit to not knowing who is right and who is wrong.

Another thing you keep bringing up is how can we teach our children love, etc. and also teach them so many horrible things as well. One thing you don't seem to be catching on to is that the Bible is written by man. It was divinely inspired, yes, but it was written by men. The crusades were done by men. Witches burned at the stake, all done by mankind. Yes, done in the name of God, but still done by mankind. Jesus did not preach hate. He preached love. and tolerance. God did not condone all these violent and despicable acts. They were done for the sake of power and greed, God was just used as an excuse.


What about other people's gods - do you also believe in them? Egyptian gods? Greek gods? The muslim god, is it the same as the jewish or christian god? What about religions who believes in spirits rather than gods, are they the same? Why would there be only one? Why yours would be right?


Actually there are quite a few scholars out there that believe that Allah and the Cristian/ Jewish god are one and the same. Muhammed is a descendant of Abraham, through his maid. If you read the story, Abraham's wife could not have a child, so she gave her maid to Abraham to bear him children. Then when Sarai got pregnant the maid took her son and ran away. And promises were made to her regarding her descendants by God. And that is supposedly where Islam comes from.

Also, (and please don't go wild or crazy on this as what I am about to write is purely speculation, after doing a lot of studying on my part. No proof, no theory or hypothesis, just speculation) in the Bible there is a long period of time missing from Christ's life. Around the same time of those missing years there was a prophet traveling through India preaching some of the same things as Jesus, only difference, said prophet was supposedly Hindu, not Jewish. But what is to say that that wasn't Jesus spreading his teachings?

I guess my point is is that we have no idea who is right and who is wrong. That's why it is called faith. You question how we can teach out children things about our faith. How can you not?
 Elmenreich
Joined: 9/23/2009
Msg: 40
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Posted: 11/11/2009 11:44:12 AM

the Bible has been so altered by translations it is very logical to think that some meanings have got lost in those translations.

Although what Jesus spoke in the language He spoke doesn't exist, the Bible is still in its original language. You can get a copy of the Old Testament in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek at a good bookstore. If you don't want to learn a new language, try the New Jerusalem Bible. Unlike the King James Bible, it's translated directly from its original language, and not from the Latin vulgate, which is a translation of the original language.
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 41
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/11/2009 12:20:16 PM
^^^^^^^^



That's all I can say.......

 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 42
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Posted: 11/11/2009 12:49:47 PM
As I read the post it seem really strange how many people say they believe in god, but they don't really believe in the bible, koran or organized religion. Others cheery pick what they wish to believe and ignore what they do not. In essence, these posters have created there own religion or belief system. None have said they did it with divine guidance or intervention, but that they believe and in some cases they like the fellowship (group think) provided at church services (preaching stuff they don't all ways agree with) brings them some comfort. Not a lot of logic or reasoning being put forth, but a desire to believe. I truly think a belief in god is an opiate for the masses. I and other atheist choose to stay off this drug and use logic and reason, not group think or peer pressers to lead our life's. The idea that some do not believe the bible or really believe in any religion, but still believe that some god created everything with nothing to go on or support this idea, seem strange at best. Sorry for you that believe like this, but can you understand why I would not want you teaching my kids logic or reasoning classes? Logical reasoning seems to be missing here and the attempts to explain their beliefs here in the forums have all come up short. Again to the OP your child seems to be showing some logic, reasoning and questioning and these are good things for a child to be showing. Yes, support them!
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 43
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Posted: 11/11/2009 1:31:46 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity

By using logical reasoning our understanding of Infinty grows. There are some things that mans ability to understand completly (our mind are cool, but they are not without bounds) are difficult, but we pick away at them. Just what we know about DNA, space and the like now compared to 50 years ago is well it is a lot. How did we get there? Lagical reasoning, not blind faith. Don't sell the comprehension of the human mind short and remember at one point in time man did not know how to make fire lol. I am sure when those people found fire, some believed it was a gift from gods, but most know better now don't they lol. Even if you don't!
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 44
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/11/2009 3:16:54 PM
Freetime You on the other hand keep insisting that yours is the only way. Mankind is neither strictly logical nor strictly illogical. We love. We laugh at silly things, yet no two of us consider the same things silly. We love and who we choose to love is going to be different than who the person next to us chooses to love.

For those of you that are arguing about logic, how do you plan on choosing your mate? Are you going to wait until a female comes along and is ready to breed and puts out her scent? Or are you going to look for someone that has similar likes and dislikes? And do you plan on mating for life? Or are you going to do things the logical way and just mate to reproduce. For all of you logical thinkers out there, explain why we love our children? Or is it just that we do?

A lot of people feel that their chosen religion/belief is more of a relationship with their higher power. The written works are a guide to live by and an interpretation of the word of said higher power. But as they are an interpretation, that leaves them open for even further interpretation. Organized religion, in general, is very greedy and out to get what they can. But at the same time they offer a sense of community and belonging to those that share similar beliefs. They also offer the chance to serve the community through volunteer work and sponsoring programs that help those less fortunate. How many state sponsored homeless shelters and soup kitchens do you know of? How many battered women's shelters? Or children's shelters? I am sure there are the rare exceptions to that rule, but for the most part they are all sponsored by some religious organization. They may get funding from the government, but not enough to keep them running. And that is not to say that everyone that volunteers at these places are religious. But the majority are.

Maybe we don't have a future as a great logical thinker like Socrates or Plato. Or Pythagorus (I think I spelled his name right) or Jung, or Freud (a very sick individual, if you ask me He is considered to be one of the greatest thinkers in psychology, but I don't think he had to much that was logical in his mind. Society disagrees though). But that doesn't make us unintelligent or bad people. It just means that we choose to live by our hearts instead of our heads. It doesn't mean we can't teach people things, it just means that we approach it from a different direction. We prefer to see the beauty in life, and not to look at everything from a cold, heartless, and scientific point of view.
 SweetnessInFlorida
Joined: 6/26/2008
Msg: 45
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/11/2009 9:27:40 PM
I think Lavey is awesome.
I liked his stance on "loving everybody, and why you shouldnt".
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 46
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Posted: 11/11/2009 9:47:00 PM
The world is full of paradox. Teaching your children that there is a higher power, of any sort, doesn't seem harmful to me. I honestly believe that there is a difference between organized religion & a belief system, although religion is often a good start. There is nothing wrong with teaching kids that there is a Santa and letting them find out in their own time, that Santa Claus is really the spirit of Christmas, rather than a physical being. There are many philosophical theories debating the existence of God. Is there something wrong with "whatever works for you"? One can find, and teach, comfort wherever they are most comfortable doing so. For me personally, I was raised Catholic, and, despite the fact that I attended parochial school my entire life, I have no problem with disputing literal "facts". I also have no problem believing in a higher power who loves me, and expects me to love others as well. I fail to see the harm in that, and I do see the harm in not teaching kids anything at all in this regard. As a matter of fact, I see it on a daily basis, now that my own children are in public school, where disrespect, both for self & others, runs rampant, and there is nothing to aspire to, as a human being in possession of a soul. My feelings have nothing st all to do with guilt or retribution, rather, love & comfort.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 47
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Posted: 11/12/2009 3:13:10 AM
Q:For those of you that are arguing about logic, how do you plan on choosing your mate?
A: I have all ways gone for the ones with the hot body.
Q:Are you going to wait until a female comes along and is ready to breed and puts out her scent?
A: No
Q:Or are you going to look for someone that has similar likes and dislikes?
A: What part of the hot body thing did you not understand lol.
Q: And do you plan on mating for life?
A: No
Q:For all of you logical thinkers out there, explain why we love our children? Or is it just that we do?
A: There is a real Darwin type advantage to having a feeling of caring/love for ones children. What group is more likely to have children that live and also have kids that care for the kids. Wait, you must have been home or church schooled to have missed this leason. WTF? My 12 year old knows about this stuff???

"And that is not to say that everyone that volunteers at these places are religious. But the majority are. " So are the majority of people in the jails in the USA, so are the majority of wife/husband beaters. Again your logic has fallen short here.

"We prefer to see the beauty in life, and not to look at everything from a cold, heartless, and scientific point of view. " What part of the hot body thing did you miss again? To think Atheist don't see beauty in life wow you have missed the boat again! We see beauty in life logical thought and reasoning does not make a rose smell any different, but it does help smell a dumb argument.
 NappyKAT
Joined: 7/2/2008
Msg: 48
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/12/2009 3:55:32 AM

I would LOVE to get a peek under the vatican...anyone with me on that?
Here here! I heard there are so many things that the vatican is hiding to keep the catholics masses from knowing the truth, whatever the truth is. One thing I heard he is hiding is several very old black madonna shrines. The very first Christians who built any kind of shrines to Jesus, those shrines were black. I'm not sure if was black material they were made out of if they are saying that the very Jesus and Madonna are black. But if you subtly want everyone to believe in a white god and jesus, there is just no way you can have that up contradicting what you say.

And the real lost books of bible that were thrown out at the Council of Nicea are in there.

And some things about Mary Magadaline and her heritage. I recently learned that she was NOT a prostitute, but a consort of Jesus. That would make Jesus a real man with a real lust for a woman - NOT something a perfect being such as Jesus is suppose to have.

Free2beme. I am a 'weak' athiest. By that I mean I don't believe in any of the religion or their holy books. I like to talk about them, debate them, use on them on unsuspecting hypocrites (that's always fun) but I don't believe in them. I think some very ordinary person made them up and wrote them and I could just as well do the same and invent a new religion myself if I so wish. At www.atheist.org it states a definition of atheist to mean 'without god' and that's how I try to live my life - without god - meaning without anybody's definition of god but my own. And I don't have a definition of who or what 'god' is.

At the same time - I really do believe there are some things that are beyond human definition and comprehension. I've somewhat witnessed this in my life when it comes to certain events. I know there are other's who have witnessed it because they have a supernatural gift - whatever that is. Prophesy. Seeing spirits. Reading auras, personality, or tarot. There is something just above, about, and beyond this world unseen to human senses except for those lucky enough (or cursed) to see it and know it. I never figured out how that works for an atheist who is suppose to be in absolutely nothing but what he or she can see and define in this life only. I'm having trouble with that too but I'm fine with calling myself an atheist. Sometimes I call myself an 'atheist occultist' - an atheist who dabbles in the occult phenonmena. I can say I'm not good at it tho and have no natural gift for it, so I don't do it often.

About Lavey and Satonic bible. I don't know about the Satanic bible at all but he has a website. I perused it. I used some of his 'commandments' as inspiration to set my own beliefs to paper and make a list of them - but they aren't called commandments. From what I'm reading, Lavey isn't real Satanism. Real Satanism is just Catholism turned inside out. Where Catholics believe in God, they believe in Satan. Where catholics believe in Madonna, they believe in Satan's father. They have black mass, communion with real blood, and all that. And they practice ritual sacrifice. Lavey doesn't claim any religion, least of all Black Catholism. For him, Satantism is about hedonism really - the pursuit of pleasure and happiness above all else (within lawful limits and respecting rights of others), and putting away or turning frorm those can't somehow give you pleasure or be an instrument in of love or pleasure in your life. He embraces all 'sins of the flesh' that most religious tell you to be wary of and turn against. Sounds good to me so far. But that's as far as I've went or know about anything when it comes to Lavey.
 ValkyrieHJR
Joined: 8/8/2009
Msg: 49
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 11/12/2009 4:55:15 AM

And that is not to say that everyone that volunteers at these places are religious. But the majority are. " So are the majority of people in the jails in the USA, so are the majority of wife/husband beaters. Again your logic has fallen short here.


Actually, my logic, (which I never claimed any of this was based on logic to begin with. You are the one that is arguing about logic) did not fall short. Those people that are saying they are religious or believe in whichever god they so choose to believe in and go around hurting people and lying/cheating/stealing, etc. all in the name of religion, or even just claiming to be religious are not. Those are the hypocrites. For Christians, once you truly accept God into your heart it means that you try to live your life in a Godly way. You don't go around beating people up. You don't steal or murder. You try to live and do the right things because they are the right things to do.

One other point about the whole prison/criminal thing....did any of you stop to consider how many of those people that are in prison found religion while they were there? A good majority of the people in prison go into prison not caring and not believing anything, only to find their beliefs in prison. So yes, the majority of people in prisons are religious in some way shape or form, but most of those same people did not go into prison that way.

And, freetime, if you think your whole idea of looking for someone with the hottest bod is not a cold and heartless way of picking a mate, then you have defeated your own logic. Because that is a cold and heartless way of choosing someone to be with. But since you aren't looking for anyone, then I guess it doesn't matter.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 50
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Posted: 11/12/2009 7:59:06 AM
" So yes, the majority of people in prisons are religious in some way shape or form, but most of those same people did not go into prison that way. "
This is not a true statment!!!!! You might wish it was,but it is not. The facts point this out. Not only do atheist go to jail less then christians they tend to have higher IQs and be better educated. All good things if you ask me. Also did you know the United stated is the most Christian nation in the G-8 and it has both the largest prison population and the highest rates of murder. Japan is the most atheist nation in the G-8 and it has the lowest. Check your facts. Here is a good web link for you, you really need to educate yourself before debating: http://www.atheists.org/ check it out you will learn a lot and you need to.

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