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 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 163
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Condoning Atheism.Page 7 of 25    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25)
Coverups & turning a blind eye, if that is what you believe is happening, is most certainly unrelated to theism, even if the power of the organization that is a church plays a role. Money & power always play a role. Still, it is more than a reach to suggest that a belief on God would cause anyone to be a pedophile.

On a personal level, how dare you accuse me of being a member of any cult! You know nothing of my beliefs, my background or my understanding, so focused are you on making points. Much of what I've posted mentions the difference between organized religion & theism. I have even stated that blind adherence to any doctrine is evidence of ignorance. How convenient to ignore the truth in order to further an argument which, frankly, smacks of idiocy! You are NOT on topic. There is no relation between the compulsive behavior of the pedophile & theism. You blatantly suggest that believing in God causes one to be a pedophile, and I am misguided?!?! Spare those of us with a functioning brain!
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 164
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/5/2010 4:02:28 AM
"Still, it is more than a reach to suggest that a belief on God would cause anyone to be a pedophile. "

WTF? Who said that? I said a blind eye was turned which help enable these activities not that they caused them. Hello.

"On a personal level, how dare you accuse me of being a member of any cult!"

You are a member of the catholic church by your own admission. The catholic church is a cult by the vary definition of the word. Link and proof given in an earlier post, we have been over this. One more time hello!

For a how dare you, how about how dare you twist my words into something I never said. Again typical tactic used when you can win an argument. That must be all you have to resort too.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 165
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/7/2010 5:26:22 AM
Of course Juicemomma finds me again. Just don't drip any of your juice on to this page, that would be messy. Stalkers, they just follow me around. No real points to add or make, but she knows I won and publicly stated so. Just did it like a poor looser, but I saw that coming. To your question (remember you asked): at least once more!
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 166
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/7/2010 7:04:26 PM

Atheism is not void of moral relativism, lovekraft. I know to believer this may sounds difficult to understand, but you do NOT need a "god" or a spiritual belief in order to develop an ethical and moral code. As for negativity? There is nothing negative in life. Atheism is about living your own life as best as possible, it's about ethics and it's about passing down your values to your children and to the next generations. There is nothing negative or cold in there.


Neither athesim not theism are replete with or devoid of morality, but I will contend that the BASIS of morality is found in theism. Moral & ethical code had been developed over centuries by the belief in God (btw, I personally don't believe that the proves the existence of God, but I do wonder what the moral & ethical code, even as it has degenerated these days, would be were it not for the belief of the majority in a God). In any case, athesim, in & of itself is not anything, other than disbelief. The choice of how to live your life bears no relation whatever to atheism, it is not a movement, after all, simply a description for those who don't believe in gods; a personal issue, not the embrace of an ideology, really.

I would agree that there is nothing intrinsically negative or cold about being an atheist, but I do believe that the values one passes down stem from theism, somewhere in their history. Theism and athesim are not entities unto themselves, they are simply belief choices, or faith that resides in an individual. It is no more accurate to attribute characteristics to EVERY individual who adheres to either notion of the existence of God than to attribute the behavior of certain men or women to the entire gender. Blaming one's belief or non belief in God for behavior is simply negating personal responsibility, just another means of starting an argument!
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 167
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/7/2010 8:10:50 PM

Oh but it does happen. Not that people in Haiti died because of their believes, but people most certainly do die for their believes and religions. In India, people live very dangerously, for example not taking proper precautions when working with electricity, driving dangerously etc. and it has a lot to do with belief in fate and karma. Now i understand that these people misunderstand an awful lot and that there is a lot of ignorance playing its role, but my point is that the religion plays a massive role too. It also keeps people in abusive and even fatal marriages and is a source of all sorts of punishments for When people dont behave how expected. If you cannot see this, you must be blind.

How ethnocentric and condescending to fail to recognize that karma has nothing to do with whether people employ safety measures when dealing with electricity, it is lack of knowledge. If they seem in your eyes to accept their lot in life living in inadequate and dangerous housing this is more directly related to a feeling of helplessness to change their circumstances due to the structure of society not because they believe somehow that their "lot in life" is okay. Hm, ever hear of Ghandi? The principles of karma do not suggest that if you see a truck barreling toward you that you should refrain from moving out of the way. If you find, however, that you are so afraid you have literally become paralyzed you are perhaps more accepting of your impending death. Karma helps in accepting those things one cannot change.

To also generalize that any religion promotes remaining in psychologically and/or physically damaging relationships is ridiculous. Islam not only allows for divorce, it requires that the ex-husband continue to treat his ex-wife well and to support his children and also her if she needs help. Christianity theoretically frowns upon divorce and yet there is Scripture to support that a woman is not expected to stay in an abusive situation even if she is married, if she fears for her own or her children's mental and physical well-being, one presumes that the spouse has violated the marriage contract. Most religions are twisted by some people so as asserted by another poster, there is a difference between theism and religion.

I really don't see why it is not possible to both expose a child to religion and spiritual teachings and also tell them that regardless of your beliefs or those of other people they encounter, it is not possible to 100% know that there is a God/Higher Being. I don't see this statement as detracting from anyone's faith because that is what faith is, believing in something that one cannot see and likely does not directly experience in the same way we humans experience and process everything else.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 168
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/8/2010 6:27:43 AM
"Blaming one's belief or non belief in God for behavior is simply negating personal responsibility, just another means of starting an argument!"

Not if their belief in god or the documents they follow in the name of that same god is the primary reason for their actions. Ask a suicide bomber that failed why they tried to do it and the response is all most all ways the same. For god. If some one was a member of the KKK and killed a black/jew/other because they said this is what the klan had taught them was the right thing to do, would you make this same argument ? If you would it would be just a wrong as the one you made here. Yes, personal responsibility is important, but some things teach hate, the KKK, the koran and the bible and they are bad things. There is a link for many and it can not be talked away.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 169
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/8/2010 3:59:28 PM
Those of whom you speak, however, are not merely theists, they are zealots, and it is NOT their belief in God, in & of itself that causes them to do anything. Zealots represent a very small minority of theists, and, once again, I note the difference between theism (the topic at hand) and strict adherence to any organized religion without question or thought given. The primary reason the people of whom you speak blindly adhere to what they are told by others is the will of God is ignorance. This remains my contention. Anyone can take anything good & use it as an excuse for bad, but that's no reason to take the good away from what is good about it.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 170
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/9/2010 4:00:22 AM
Most religions are based around writings. Two of the big writings, the bible and the koran. Both of these have stories of men doing gods work. That is key. You see his work would not get done without men or nature, because he is not real. Interpreting works done by man or nature or the unknown as acts of god, no, that does not happen by religious types lol. Now if your talking about some religion not based on the bible, the koran or some other writings may be it is different, but the fact is most are based on writings and these writings do call on men to do gods work.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 171
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/9/2010 3:25:23 PM

Neither athesim not theism are replete with or devoid of morality, but I will contend that the BASIS of morality is found in theism. Moral & ethical code had been developed over centuries by the belief in God


And yet I've never heard of someone killing someone else because he didn't believe in God or ( for the agnostics out there ) didn't question the existence of God the same way the one doing the killing didn't not believe in ( or questioned the existence of) God.

This quote says it all :


With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 172
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/9/2010 9:02:34 PM

I think this is why atheists have such huge problems with the theists cause they have a tendency to forget these two fundamental facts that apply to almost every known religion.


Your statement would only make theism a problem for atheists if they were ignorant enough to make the assumption that the acts of madmen are the direct result of a belief in God.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 173
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/9/2010 9:24:11 PM

the acts of madmen are the direct result of a belief in God.


The suicide bombers killing in "god's name" are a direct result of a belief in god.
 mcalgary
Joined: 11/10/2009
Msg: 174
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/9/2010 11:49:19 PM

the acts of madmen are the direct result of a belief in God.


The suicide bombers killing in "god's name" are a direct result of a belief in god.


While this may be true, if there was no religion they would just find another reason to kill.

Humankind has always and will always find reasons to hate one another.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 175
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/10/2010 4:03:02 AM
"While this may be true, if there was no religion they would just find another reason to kill.
Human kind has always and will always find reasons to hate one another."

Then why do we condemn other hate groups like the KKK? There are lots of groups we say are bad and them being around is not cool or good. Lots of symbols and items associated with gangs and hate groups that are prohibited items in most school systems. The reason for this is simple. Keeping kids away from these hate groups, gangs and their symbols and colors does in fact reduce the violence associated with them and gives time for these same children to see there is a better way. If your argument was correct (it is not) there would be no reason to condemn the bloods or the crips, they would just find a different way to hate. Some might, but lots will not and that is how we make this a better world.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 176
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/10/2010 10:38:49 AM

The suicide bombers killing in "god's name" are a direct result of a belief in god.

While this may be true, if there was no religion they would just find another reason to kill.


Doubtful, since I said "suicide bomber" not simply killer. In the case of Muslim fanatics who believe that when they die as martyrs they reap rich rewards in heaven, how likely would such a suicide bomber be to carry out the act if he was told that when he detonated the bomb he'd be killed as he was blown into numerous pieces. No express path to heaven, no vast rewards, simply dead.

In any case, as you state " there was no religion they would just find another reason to kill" accepts the fact they did kill for religious reasons.

This shows that having religious beliefs makes someone no more moral than not having such beliefs. In other words, those with faith can choose to do good or bad as can those with no faith. Being an atheist doesn't mean the person is by definition immoral.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 177
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/10/2010 6:05:12 PM
The suicide bombers killing in "god's name" are a direct result of a belief in god.


No, they are the result of twisted, misguided individuals who are easy targets. People most certainly do not kill "in God's name", they merely excuse their actions by saying so.

btw, although I do feel that morality arose from a general belief in God, I certainly agree that simply being an atheist does not make one immoral.... almost like simply believing in God doesn't make one a suicide bomber!
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 178
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/10/2010 6:13:16 PM

Then why do we condemn other hate groups like the KKK? There are lots of groups we say are bad and them being around is not cool or good. Lots of symbols and items associated with gangs and hate groups that are prohibited items in most school systems. The reason for this is simple. Keeping kids away from these hate groups, gangs and their symbols and colors does in fact reduce the violence associated with them and gives time for these same children to see there is a better way. If your argument was correct (it is not) there would be no reason to condemn the bloods or the crips, they would just find a different way to hate. Some might, but lots will not and that is how we make this a better world.


Firstly, I am sorry that you view religious organizations as hate groups. I was raised Catholic, even attended Catholic school, and I don't recall being taught hatred. We did, however, attend services at a local synagogue, visited the Buddhists & were taught tolerance & love for our fellow man. Once again, I believe it is the extremists you are singling out, not the typical member of any religion.

That having been said, if you have a problem with organized religion, then say so, but theism is not a religion. Merely believing in God doesn't cause anyone to hurt anyone. It is no different than any other belief; individuals choose the extent to which it impacts their lives, and take out of it what they are capable of, and choose to.

Not to worry, though, next time I see the Lutherans & the Mormons stabbing each other in the school hallways, I"ll be sure to remember what you said!
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 179
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/10/2010 8:38:47 PM
After all these pages, I went back to the original post, and I do have a comment.


Is condoing atheism really all that awful?
I wolud prefer her to take a more spiritual path, but i amnot her and she is not me, thus i give my loving permission for her to believe in whe wants to.

I have tried to discuss this with family and close friends, but ended up bombarded by everyone from my mother in law from from the teacher to her estranged bio-father on how im poisioning her by telling her it is ok tio be an atheist.


IMO, the bible stories she has been exposed to are far more poisionious.
Yeah every kid loves a good tale of rape and murder before bed.
Sweet dreams honey!!!!!


Condoning atheism isn't awful, if that's what you feel comfortable doing. In your case, though, you say you would like your child to have some degree of spirituality, so why aren't you taking the responsibility for guiding the child in a non threatening & age appropriate way?

IMO, the poisonous stories YOU exposed her to were completely inappropriate. It is your job, not the job of the JW's, to ensure that your child is taught (or not taught) things that you don't feel they are ready to handle at particular developmental stages.

IMO, you SHOULD support her decisions, but it also up to you to provide her with information to enable her to make decisions. To assume that reading a few stories is sufficient information for a young child to decide to adhere to atheism seems a bit foolish. Just sayin'
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 180
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/11/2010 4:10:04 AM
"if you have a problem with organized religion, then say so, but theism is not a religion."
Most religions are based around writings. Two of the big writings, the bible and the koran. Both of these have stories of men doing gods work. That is key. You see his work would not get done without men or nature, because he is not real. Interpreting works done by man or nature or the unknown as acts of god, no, that does not happen by religious types lol. Now if your talking about some religion not based on the bible, the koran or some other writings may be it is different, but the fact is most are based on writings and these writings do call on men to do gods work.

Fact most people that believe in god base that belief on writings or stories handed down and it is those stories and writings that are the problem and they change how theism is played out by many/most. No way around this, it happens!
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 181
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/11/2010 1:02:27 PM
sweetnessinlove wrote:
Is condoing atheism really all that awful?


No. Why would condoning atheism be any worse than condoning religion of any sort? Why wouldn't it be a slight improvement, actually?


sweetnessinlove wrote:
Does anyone else think the bible is a disgusting book not for for children whatsoever?

I haven't read much of it. What I have read isn't something I'd want to really have children reading.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 182
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/12/2010 4:45:48 AM
"but theism is not a religion"
Here is a site on theism and biblicaltheism that not only points out the differences they have with none believers and secular and humanistic society it calls for war against them.
http://www.biblicaltheism.com/
"To win this war, theists must be informed about the philosophical foundations of both sides, about goals and objectives, about strategies and tactics, and about how to be actively involved in this conflict."
Your views on theism are clearly just that your views, but their are lots of others that do not share your views.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 183
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/13/2010 8:43:44 AM
I found this query of Epicurus' interesting :



"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?Then why call him God?”
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 184
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/13/2010 12:02:59 PM
^^^^ LOL.... but I'm not an American.... and besides, you people never specify WHICH god you're talking about. Anubis? Baal? Vishna? Odin ? Gaea? Zeus? Hera? Selene?
 briargate
Joined: 8/18/2008
Msg: 185
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/14/2010 5:31:40 PM

When I was 11, we'd listen to the priests telling us the evils of masterbation, and how fornicators would burn in hell.


Our Catholic priests weren't that bad. They just had a very large, dark, creepy church with a lifelike crucifix that never failed to make one stare at it. But I didn't understand why I, a 9-year-old kid, needed confessional.


I'm raising my kids to understand who Darwin is, and the science carbon dating dinosaur bones and they understand that pre-history came way before stories in the bible.


Bible literalists area fairly hostile to geological sciences. You should see some of the textbooks that these Creationists come out with explaining events like the Great Flood with diagrams, charts, and data that is difficult to debunk if one is uninformed. It's presented so convincingly. I was surprised, really.

I fully expect my daughter will make up her own mind given what is presented to her, and I intend to disclose my own opinions early on without any prejudice.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 186
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/14/2010 6:37:31 PM
I can't remember where I read this, and it was quite some years ago, but I always thought that this little philosophical question was interesting:

"Is Man created in God's image, or is God created in Man's image?"
 briargate
Joined: 8/18/2008
Msg: 187
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/15/2010 9:57:36 AM
I am an atheist as well, but I rarely mention it to anyone. I'm so secure in this that I never even debate religion anymore. I don't rail against this church or that one. And it wouldn't bother me if my daughter chose to believe in some faith. I would hope she would choose the Emily****nson approach, however, over Pat Robertson.

It will be an interesting exercise in presenting differing viewpoints to her as she grows up. I will certainly present my views with my reasons behind them. I could say "evidence" but faith-based beliefs are not based on such. That is also something I will teach her: the difference between faith and knowledge.

And even atheists benefit from having some faith-based beliefs. I kid you not. Sometimes we just need to believe everything will be OK.
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