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 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 188
Condoning Atheism.Page 8 of 25    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25)

although she is 3months old, my family is already speaking abt God to her



Perhaps when she is older you can read various myths to her about the Greek & Roman gods & goddesses, and she may start to ask herself & you "if these stories aren't true, how is it the stories in the Bible are accepted as true?".
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 189
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/15/2010 11:19:26 PM
And to back that, my ex-wife tried to use the accusation of atheism as a sort of definition about how I'm a bad person.... I'd swear it's like she almost expected the court to dock me points for not being religious.

She's a good Christian, though. She told me so, particularly because she wanted to emphasize how I am not. Even though she sort of mixes it with Voodoo practices a bit.

I wish I could say I were making this up...



Now, onto a slightly different topic . . one thing people fail to consider is that it is impossible to be simultaneously omniscient and omnipotent. It is a logical contradiction.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 190
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/16/2010 5:47:13 AM
"my ex-wife tried to use the accusation of atheism as a sort of definition about how I'm a bad person.... I'd swear it's like she almost expected the court to dock me points for not being religious."

The real sad thing is depending on the judge is that it could have worked.

http://atheisthaven.blogspot.com/2007/11/atheism-divorce-and-custody-battles.html

Enforcing this kind of bigotry from the bench happens all the time.
 zelda zonk
Joined: 2/5/2010
Msg: 191
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/16/2010 3:49:19 PM
In the words of Peter Sellers -
How do I know I'm god? Simple when I prey to it, I know I am talking to myself.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 192
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History
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/23/2010 9:22:36 AM
My brother-in-law gave my oldest girl the Golden Compass book box set two years ago at Christmas. She and my other girl did a sleep over at friends down the street not long after that so she took the books with her to her friends, but her friends father and mother told her that the books were not appropriate reading and told her to put them back in her suitcase and leave them there until she got back home. The reason was the author of the book was an atheist and their church as well as many others around the country and the world had put out an active campaign to boycott the film and the books because it had a Pro-Atheist message. Now I saw the movie and I did not see a pro-atheist message, but I did see some polar bears fighting and that was cool. There was an active campaign telling church member just seeing this movie was a bad thing. True.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,305487,00.html
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/story?id=3970783&page=1

Here are three web links that talk about it, but there are lots of them still up. The message put out by these churches was that not only is this movie bad and the books bad, but atheists are bad. This family down the street that I use to be friends with and my kids use to play with their kids did not like finding out that me and my children do not believe in god. They are still there but we are no longer friends. I excepted their believing in god; I never told there kids not to pray before bed when they stayed the night at my house, but just being atheist made them so unconvertible they did not want to have the kids hang out any more. If you have to be so afraid of having your church members see a movie that might have an atheist message in it that a boycott is called for. There just might be a few holes in your entire belief system if you ask me.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 193
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/23/2010 9:46:52 AM
I saw the movie jesus camp on dvd a while back with my kids and even my 9 year old (8 at the time) could not believe some of the things they believe in and were programing into the kids.
I was at my dad's on vacation one summer when a new Harry Potter movie came out and was taking my girls and my dad (lol he has read every one of the books more then once) and asked the people next doors grand kid if she wanted to go too (my treat). She rolled her eyes and said she was not allowed to go see Harry Potter because of the witch craft. At least she knew it was a dumb reason too, but had to do what the church said to do or at least what it told her parents to do. I like her faimily still, they a nice good people, but they do what ever the chuch tells them and that is scary.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 194
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/26/2010 8:42:59 AM

No, I think the Bible is a book anyone of any age should read.


I suppose any age could read it. They can also go to a library & read other mythology books; some of the Greek & Roman mythology is very entertaining & doesn't have the theme of recurring genocide that there is in the Bible.
 EGJV
Joined: 9/13/2008
Msg: 195
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/26/2010 3:03:38 PM
Gotta love the bias even in the thread title "CONDONING atheism", like it's something equal to murder or rape.

Jayron's dad did great in this regard. Anyone who studies myths will realize all religions are myths. Anyone who points to "miraculous" spreads of belief can be pointed to the spread of Jehova's witnesses, Mormons, Scientology... there's nothing miraculous about ever more people being brought to believe nonsense.

I read a very interesting article years ago in Discover magazine about morals being developed as part of evolution. As a simplistic example, a society (not necessarily human) where everyone kills everyone with no regard ends up with no descendants, and therefore stops existing quickly. A society where every member protects each other results in increased lifespan and opportunities for procreation. Some systems, like ants, protect the queen as top priority. I don't think they have an ant bible, yet that is what they do...
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 196
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/26/2010 6:14:47 PM

Some systems, like ants, protect the queen as top priority. I don't think they have an ant bible, yet that is what they do...


If course creatures like ants ( and wasps or bees,as other examples) don't do that because they think it's the proper thing to do. They do it because it's hardwired into them & they just act on instinct.

Religious leaders would love it if people were the same, & didn't think but instead just believed whatever pap the religious leaders spread & followed their edicts without question.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 197
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/26/2010 8:07:37 PM
I wold imagine that those who don't believe in God also believe that, like ants, we act morally in order to preserve our species. For the majority, this is not enough, which is why the majority believe on a higher being; not killing everyone else for no other reason than to insure that the species survives doesn't seem to present humans as all that attractive.

Just curious, how do you know what religious leaders would love? Are YOU God?!

Seriously, I'm not trying to start an argument, but I find it amusing that (not in the real world, thankfully) this thread has brought about so many who claim to be opposed to religion without addressing the fact that this thread is about THEISM, NOT religious affiliation! There is most certainly a difference, and to bring forth arguments based solely on zealousness makes me a bit wary. Many of us (yes, I do believe in God) who are theists do not condone blind adherence to the interpretation or utterance of another human, whether they be a "religious leader" or a stranger who posts "factual" information on the forums of a dating site. Most theists do not reject thought over belief, they find ways to make them go hand in hand; the majority of theists question anything that seems illogical and they certainly do have logical arguments & thought processes that lead them to conclude that God exists. They may not be your arguments or your thought processes, but what leads you (not you, in particular) to conclude that your logic is the correct logic? To what "religion" do you adhere that teaches you that your way is the only way? Are you really any different than those you degrade, then?

I find it unfortunate that this thread has degenerated to a point whee there is no realization of the fact that logic as well as tolerance long ago fell by the wayside. One can believe in God, and logically so, or not believe, logically so, but that is not the measure of a good & moral being. Are we not able to admit this, so focused are we on having everyone think exactly as we do? It seems to me that the need to judge others & fault them for disagreeing with our opinions speaks more about humanity than the discussion of the need of some for religion or the belief in God. How disconcerting!
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 198
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/26/2010 9:30:32 PM

so many who claim to be opposed to religion without addressing the fact that this thread is about THEISM,


No, actually this thread is about ATHEISM, not THEISM.


One can believe in God, and logically so, or not believe, logically so


Believe in a god or gods ( or goddesses) logically so? If such a belief can be proven logically then faith wouldn't be required. The choice seems to be either a) believe in a god who can't be proven to exist or b) don't believe in such a god. If you want to invoke logic only choice b makes any sense.

In any event, I have no problem with anyone wanting to believe whatever they want; the problems arise when theists want other individuals or society to adjust to conform with what the theist feels should be the way the individual or society should act ( as examples, having prayer in schools, teaching "intelligent design" in the classrooms alongside evolution, teaching that using condoms is a sin, and such).
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 199
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/26/2010 9:49:30 PM


Believe in a god or gods ( or goddesses) logically so? If such a belief can be proven logically then faith wouldn't be required.


Belief in a deity is by definition, irrational, ...just by the law of parsimony, one of the basic building blocks of logic.

Reminds me of a great Douglas Adams moment:


The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, by Douglas Adams, contains a famous instance of QED in the aside on the Babel fish:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway. It proves you exist, and so therefore you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that" and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."


 EGJV
Joined: 9/13/2008
Msg: 200
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/26/2010 10:15:01 PM

They do it because it's hardwired into them & they just act on instinct.


That's what I said. My theory being human "morality" is largely hardwired. Scientific studies on "catch-22" situations (like sacrifice the person next to you to save five 500 feet away) also point to some hardwire moral decision process.

Eh, previous blabby post about God and logic - if we're talking strictly about theism, why adhere good and morality to it? I can believe some God exists, created the world and then left it to its own devices and doesn't give a damn. Can you disprove this is so?
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 201
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/27/2010 10:17:18 AM

That's what I said. My theory being human "morality" is largely hardwired. I can believe some God exists, created the world and then left it to its own devices and doesn't give a damn. Can you disprove this is so?


Hmmmm hardwired.... created & left to our own devices....

GOD = Genetic Organizational Device

 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 202
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/27/2010 11:23:17 AM

suppose that you have chosen to ignore history. Galileo was killed by the Catholic Church just because he might defy the theory that the earth is flat.



Well, actually he died from natural causes; he wasn't killed. Also the Catholic church labelled him a heretic because of his stating that the Sun, not the Earth was the center of the solar system, and Earth revolved around the Sun with the other planets.

About 300 years after his death the Catholic church acknowledged that yes, Galileo was right about the Earth's revolving... but he is still considered a heretic because he opposed the view of the Vatican.


It ain't supposed to make sense; it's faith. Faith is something that you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe. - Archie Bunker
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 203
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/27/2010 3:02:41 PM

God and logic

Think "logic" for a second...


Can you disprove this is so?

Ha ha ha...

Dude, you can't "disprove" that the universe isn't held together because of my secret stash of leprechaun boot buckle dust.

You can't prove a negative.

More importantly, ...there is NO independently verifiable proof of any of the thousands of deities believed in, ...so, ...what's to "disprove" anyway?
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 204
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/27/2010 8:19:24 PM

No, actually this thread is about ATHEISM, not THEISM.


You are quite right, but the point was that the opposites are theism & atheism, not atheism & religion. Organized religion is not the same as theism, even if it is true that many theists practice a particular religion. The majority of those who belong to a chosen religion are "middle of the road" ; they don't blindly & literally believe what they hear in church. Those posters here who espouse atheism speak of all who disagree with them as if they were zealots and without logic. The truth is that have been quite a few philosophers who have a found ways of incorporating logic into their arguments for the existence of God. Which brings me to:



Believe in a god or gods ( or goddesses) logically so? If such a belief can be proven logically then faith wouldn't be required. The choice seems to be either a) believe in a god who can't be proven to exist or b) don't believe in such a god. If you want to invoke logic only choice b makes any sense.


Logic does not have to result in fact finding, merely persuasion, or self contentment. Your choice b is the only choice FOR YOU. Logic is subjective to a large degree and faith is found in many beliefs. The belief that our partner loves us & is faithful can be a logical inference, until we found out they have been sleeping with the neighbor, too. Does that mean that their logic was incorrect? or their faith misguided? Or that logic & faith were absent? In any case, not your call, just as it is not for you to say that arguments for (or against, for that matter) the existence of God are absent of logic, they simply don't use a logic you can follow.



In any event, I have no problem with anyone wanting to believe whatever they want; the problems arise when theists want other individuals or society to adjust to conform with what the theist feels should be the way the individual or society should act ( as examples, having prayer in schools, teaching "intelligent design" in the classrooms alongside evolution, teaching that using condoms is a sin, and such).


I quite agree with you, although the problem isn't specific to theists, certainly not on this thread! If we truly feel that each individual should be given the information necessary to make up their own mind, why deny students the right to have all the information: evolution, intelligent design, the big bang theory, whatever. It is no more correct to take away a person's right to say a prayer in school than it is to force someone to pray. Around here, the schools have a moment of silence each morning; what's the harm there?
For me, the problem arises when people aren't held responsible for their actions, and that is completely outside theistic arguments.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 205
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/27/2010 11:00:31 PM
afternoondelightss wrote:

Chick.com

I can't speak for the other sites, but Jack Chick? I'd consider exposing children to Jack Chick's brand of venom probably about half way to being child abuse in and of itself...

TAKEN_itsallinthesoul wrote:

In science, we teach scientific theory...why is scientific theory more acceptable than religious or spiritual theory?


Because there is no such thing as "religious theory" or "spiritual theory"

It's a (deliberate) mangling of the word "theory" actually. Scientific theory is not the same as the vernacular "theory", the latter of which means a guess or conjecture.

However, those who like to give religion equal (or greater) footing than science, and particularly those who wish to discount it, deliberately confuse that word, and, in the much-abused case of evolution, like to say "it's just a theory" as if it were something someone came up with one afternoon over a few drinks...

JuiceMomma wrote:

The Judge said, "The calendar say's April 1st is April Fools Day. Psalm 14:1 states, "The fool says in his heart, there is no God." Thus, it is the opinion of this court, that, if your client says there is no God, then he is a Fool. Therefore, April 1st is his day." Court is adjourned.


This one would have two problems:

1) April Fool's Day isn't a paid-time-off holiday.
2) If any judge actually said this, then the Judge was basing judgment on the Bible, and not on law, and probably should've lost their job faster than you can say "separation of church and state"


But all this is something of a digression from the OP's question, isn't it?
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 206
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/28/2010 9:52:05 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/03/25/ted.sam.harris/index.html?hpt=P1

"Religion and science can actually co-exist within mainstream society..."

See the above link and why there are more and more who believe co-existing is not the best way to do it.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 207
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/28/2010 1:54:43 PM

If we truly feel that each individual should be given the information necessary to make up their own mind, why deny students the right to have all the information: evolution, intelligent design, the big bang theory, whatever.


I'm not saying to ban teaching intelligent design; I said "in the classroom". If the church/synagogue/temple etc the student attends wishes to teach intelligen design then go for it. It doesn't beling in a public school. And should it be decided to teach it in a public school then the school should also teach the Hindu/Inuit/Native American/ and all the other creation stories of all the other religions to ensure the student is "given the information necessary to make up their own mind". Judeo-Christian creationism shouldn't be granted any special status.


It is no more correct to take away a person's right to say a prayer in school than it is to force someone to pray.


And yet in the US don't the students regularly recite the pledge of allegiance, which includes the line "one nation under god" ? I know the "under god" phrase was a later addition to the pledge, but how do they reconcile that pledge with seperation of church & state in the public schools?
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 208
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/28/2010 1:58:41 PM

In science, we teach scientific theory...why is scientific theory more acceptable than religious or spiritual theory?


What exactly is this "religious or spiritual theory" you speak of, I'd be interseted in reading it. A belief is not a theory.

And how do you propose we test the theory? Guess I could buy a lottery ticket, pray it wins & if it doesn't that'd prove there is no creator.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 209
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/28/2010 4:32:40 PM

Logic is all about reasoning. It's not a belief or faith. You have it mixed up and then you arrogantly say that it's a logic that the numerous posters who opposed you "cannot folow


I am not mixed up, nor am I arrogant. I never said that logic was a belief, I said that there have been many who incorporate logic into their arguments for and against the existence of God. This is a fact, not my opinion. Logical arguments are not the function of truth, they are form, and my point is that those who dismiss anyone who disagrees with them have sought to put them down by stating that they are not logical. They are wrong, by definition. It is not my intention to persuade others to believe as I do, but I have grown tired of those who seek to denigrate all who do not agree with them.

As far as the post suggesting that anything that doesn't involve evolution be taught only outside of school, that seems to contradict the notion that our children should be given all the information necessary to make up their own minds, simply another way to promote only one groups beliefs. Scientists, academia & the public at large, in general, agree that there are differing opinions, and no concrete proof either way, so why not teach alternative theories? Isn't that what science is?
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 210
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/28/2010 4:46:11 PM

Scientists, academia & the public at large, in general, agree that there are differing opinions, and no concrete proof either way, so why not teach alternative theories? Isn't that what science is?


Actually, the overwhelming majority of scientists agree with the theory of evolution; the differing opinions are generally about what mechanisms are involved in the evolution of species, not the overall theory. And what sort of "concrete proof" or even what sort of experiment or observation is there for the existence of a creator?

Science is not giving every idea/suggestion equal status for investigation & teaching.

I can claim the universe was created when the great elephant Shaboozel sneezed, al the stars etc were expelled fromhis great trunk. There'sno concrte proof of this, but why bot teach it in the science classroom?

If religion is tobe taught in public schools. it should only be in the context of a class of "Comparative Religions", which examines the myriad belief systems we have, with no one belief system being given more status than any other. Religion does not belong in a science class.


As far as the post suggesting that anything that doesn't involve evolution be taught only outside of school, that seems to contradict the notion that our children should be given all the information necessary to make up their own minds, simply another way to promote only one groups beliefs.


No more than not teaching evolution in the church. The church only promotes one group's beliefs. Would you support the teaching of evolution in the churches, to ensure the people get exposure to more than one group's beliefs?
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 211
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History
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/28/2010 5:09:10 PM

If religion is tobe taught in public schools. it should only be in the context of a class of "Comparative Religions", which examines the myriad belief systems we have, with no one belief system being given more status than any other. Religion does not belong in a science class.


Religion is NOT to be taught in the public schools; alternate schools of thought are, and the notion of "intelligent design" seems prevalent enough to be mentioned.



As far as the post suggesting that anything that doesn't involve evolution be taught only outside of school, that seems to contradict the notion that our children should be given all the information necessary to make up their own minds, simply another way to promote only one groups beliefs.


No more than not teaching evolution in the church. The church only promotes one group's beliefs. Would you support the teaching of evolution in the churches, to ensure the people get exposure to more than one group's beliefs?


It is not the job of the church; it is, however, the job of the schools.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 212
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/28/2010 11:41:53 PM

A church and a public school are not the same thing. A church is a private institution.


It's an institution that is granted special tax breaks; maybe if the church isn't going to include evolution in it's program these tax breaks should be removed. Tax breaks are public money.
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