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 EGJV
Joined: 9/13/2008
Msg: 213
Condoning Atheism.Page 9 of 25    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25)
^^

Actually:
"Exempt Purposes - Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(3)

The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency."

A church needs only to try to advance religion to be tax-exempt. That's not "charity" AT ALL, IMO.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 214
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/29/2010 8:59:51 AM
A tax break btw is not the same thing as giving tax payers money to a charity in the form of grants/project funds.


If any institution or business ( and don't kid yourself, religion IS a business) is given a tax break then the taxes that weren't collected from the church ( due to their priveliged status) have to be collected from another source or government services have to be trimmed due to the shortfall.

As to the charitable sewrvices the church provides ( as you listed, soup kitchens, counselling services in some cases, community outreach programs) aren't those supposed to be the raison d'etre for the church's existence?

Also how much money does the church send out of the country to aid those in other countries? That money shouldn't be considered a charitable donation when the church files it's tax return.

Neither should any other money donated by individuals or corporations that leaves the country; there are enough charities & problems in this country that need funding.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 215
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/30/2010 10:45:37 AM

Religion does not belong in a science class.

Who is saying it does?


Anyone who says that "intelligent design" should be taught in a science classroom is saying it does. They can change the name all they like, but "intelligent design" is just another name for god.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 216
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/30/2010 12:02:46 PM

have great difficulty believing that any person considering the bountifull intelligences of creation would not marvel at such omniscient facility.

Any person denying "Intelligent Design" denies all else except the purpose for their denials


Omniscient facility? Why an appendix then? Why nipples on men? Why genetic maldies ( hemophilia, for example)?

And accepting an intelligent designer just raises the question of who designed the designer?

In any case, the point was that the teaching of intelligent design doesn't belong in a science classroom ( since ID isn't science), not that it shouldn't be taught.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 217
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Posted: 3/30/2010 12:24:09 PM
Hutaree, the Christian militia group is the creation of intelligent desing or at least a belief in it. Believing in things without questioning them leads to people doing lots of stange stuff, but as long as it is done in gods name it can't be all that bad right.


Galaxies collide, stares explode and children are born with their orgains outside of there bodies from time to time and they don't last long when that happens. Does not sound that intelligent to me. It is a fantastic universe out there, but god(s) did not make it.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 218
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Posted: 3/30/2010 7:03:37 PM

logic can be used when debating religious lore just as well as it can be used to debate scientific facts. The difference is that the religious people who use logic in their discourse are applying logic to faulty or unprovable initial hypothesis.

In science, you must first prove your initial hypothesis to be valid, before you can use logic to draw inference. If your premises are wrong, then of course, all of your logic will also be wrong. True reasoning takes into account that the initial premises must be validated first, otherwise the whole process is useless.


Logic need not be applicable to that which can be proven to be, well, logical. Given that rationality is the basis for logical argument, and the fact that the study of philosophy, even today, includes the logical arguments for and against the existence of God, lends credence to the rational basis of those who choose to argue/debate it. In any case, I am not disagreeing with you, I am disagreeing with those who state, quite plainly, that logic doesn't exist when it comes to debate about the existence of God. Indeed it does, and I don't believe that merely being logical PROVES anything. Logic can persuade, it can make things make sense, but it is subjective while within the boundaries of rationality. The scientific facts that "prove" evolution do not disprove the existence of God, but that doesn't mean that they are faulty in their logic either, and for many the two need not be mutually exclusive.

Obviously, enough people, including academia, acknowledge the validity of the arguments. My arguments here are in response to those who dismiss the beliefs of anyone who disagrees with them as less than logical, less intelligent, etc. There are certainly plenty of highly intelligent people who do believe, and there are plenty of those who can agree to disagree without putting other down. You are an example, and I appreciate your input.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 219
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Posted: 3/30/2010 7:09:05 PM

It's an institution that is granted special tax breaks; maybe if the church isn't going to include evolution in it's program these tax breaks should be removed. Tax breaks are public money.


Corporations are institutions that receive special tax breaks as well, and I fail to see what that has to do with my statements, either. Given that the majority of the general public does believe in a god, perhaps we should then be given a vote as to what is taught in the schools we support?; at least we choose which churches to attend. I think you're reaching. Hardly apples to apples. I don't expect the schools to teach my kids a thing about religion, but I do expect them to give them enough information with which to make up their own minds, something I don't expect of any church, as that is not their purpose.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 220
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Posted: 3/30/2010 9:10:06 PM

It's the very problem with religions: they kill critical thinking. It becomes "difficult" for you to understand anything that you don't beleive yourself. This is the root of intolerance and bigotry. Sad.


You know how I respect your opinion, CS, but I disagree. The problem isn't religion, per se, it's the choice of an individual to blindly adhere to any religion. Understanding becomes difficult only when one lives in a vacuum. There are plenty of people (I am one) who were raised in a faith who are not close minded or incapable of critical thought. Those of us who recognize that there are benefits of participation in a community of like minded individuals, as far as morality, caring for your neighbor, etc. don't choose to sacrifice our ability to think as individuals by virtue of this fact. To insinuate that every local parish, church, whatever, is radical & condones the loss of thought process is ignorant. Clergy are human, too, and there are many church "leaders" who themselves disagree with edicts issued by the higher ups. I can understand lots of things that I don't necessarily believe, and I don't judge others for their beliefs or for disagreeing with me. What you allude to is zealousness & radicalism, not the norm.

In any case, a belief in a higher being doesn't make anyone incapable of understanding or critical thought. That is an individual quality & related more to the strength of one's character than their religious affiliation, don't you think? All along, I have had a problem with the participants in this thread speaking of a belief in God & strict adherence to organized religion as if they were one; they most certainly are not.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 221
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/30/2010 11:57:11 PM

Have you considered that you are human with nipples..? rather than nipples of human..?


If you're going to be smoking thatwacky tobakky, please share.

Have you considered that (according to the Bible ) god says :

Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

( doesn't say HE is the only god, just thathe wants to be at the top of the heap )

Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me

( jealous of what?? if he is all powerful, jealousy would mean he has a massive inferiority complex. and punishing children for 4 generations for sins of their father? he hardly sounds like he's worthy of our worship )

Exodus 34:14
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

( see my comment to the previous Bible passage)


you have a confusion which may or may not be known by you but the fact that you expose it show that it must have motive for prosperity or odd acceptance.

Counselling should benefit you if you find yourself trapped in special political organizations flying you as too odd for identity.


Does anyone know what the heck these posts are supposed to mean?
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 222
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/30/2010 11:59:15 PM

I have studied intelligent design since I was 8 years old


You could study something all your life ( another example is astrology ) and that wouldn't make it true.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 223
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/31/2010 11:03:34 AM
It is an interesting and demonstrable fact, that all children are atheists and were religion not inculcated into their minds, they would remain so
~ Ernestine Rose

Does anyone else think the bible is a disgusting book not for for children whatsoever?


When I first read this, I initially felt that "disgusting" was maybe the wrong word (Me? I'd use the word "antediluvian" or even "inconsistent") to describe the book, but as I reflected on this, I realized that it's not necessarily describing the book but it's appropriateness as a book "for children", ...yeah, ...disgusting.

I feel this way because children are often not developmentally prepared to understand the difference between being taught something and being indoctrinated with/by it. I never told my child that anything was a "truth" or a "reality" unless I could provide her with a reasoned (without fallacious logic) explanation.

It's almost predatory to do this before a child has the faculty of critical thinking. Face it, some people never acquire to ability to discern between a reasoned posit and, well... sophistry stitched together by fallacy. Just consider the "tooth fairy", "santa clause", etc. ...children innately believe what is told them by adults, how many of us have had to clarify to their child that a story they've been read (or movie, etc.) that has upset them, is "just a story" or "just pretend". Sure, there are many people who take theological writings as a literal truth(s), ...often to extremes, there are innumerable interpretations of the Abrahamic idea of a personal god alone, and those who interpret the often ambiguous translations, especially when one considers the many and myriad versions of the Christian "bible".

"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder"
~ H. J. Simpson

Sorry, but I think people have as a prime responsibility to their offspring; to give them the tools to discern "truth" by a dialectic process, ...not "because I said so". In this respect, even forcing the idea of atheism without relating that it's a "choice" is an indoctrination, though there are very few genuine "gnostic atheists", as most people become atheists because of logic, ...and anybody who understands reasoned logic knows that, in the realm of possibilities, you can't prove a negative. The word "atheist" itself carries no connotation whatsoever that one knows there is no god(-s)/goddess(-es), just that one doesn't believe there is; when this is explained to a child, the most important aspect a parent can explain is why, they "don't believe".

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
~ Epicurus

If a child is given a foundation to reason via critical thinking, logic and how to employ these in a dialectic frame of reference, ...there's nothing wrong with introducing them to comparative religion, but to indoctrinate from one single interpretation of (one of myriad textual interpretations) a particular theistic mythos is nothing short of child abuse when seen in the light of self-determination and basic human dignity. Yeah, ...disgusting, ...if that's how it "goes down".

Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions
~ Jerry Falwell

Anybody here seen "Jesus Camp"?



Schools in the US also teach children that the US was founded on christian beliefs. American people insist that their leaders should be elected on the basis that they have a strong tie with God. It doesn't matter how qualified they are for the job, if they don't worship God, they won't get the trust of many Americans.

Yeah, it's amazing what some teachers "leave out":
The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
~ Treaty of Tripoli (Article 11)
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 224
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 3/31/2010 3:19:22 PM

Does anyone else think the bible is a disgusting book not for for children whatsoever?


Probably not appropriate for TV either, as explained by Gene Roddenberry when he gave a talk on problems that arise with network censors & using "the Bible as an example for a proposed series :


Gentlemen-Re: Your script, "The Bible":

We are concerned with the story's preoccupation with sex, nudity, and other Television Code violations; we are particularly concerned with your story protagonist,"God", who seems to us completely unmotivated and rather bloodthirsty. Also, this principal character, as presently written, seems to us highly prejudiced in the favor of a single tribe; we remind you that the Television Code requires equal treatment of Blacks, Asians, Chicanos, American Indians, and other minority groups.

We are equally concerned with the characterization of the principal character's Son, who is portrayed in wildly inflammatory, revolutionary conduct, which appears to ridicule Wealth, Banking & Loan Advertisers, and the American way of life; his attitudes must be clearly labeled to impressionable young viewers as "reprehensible".

SPECIFICALLY:
1.Please delete references to God making Woman out of Adam's rib; this network is an Equal Opportunities Employer, with commitments to Female Equality. Opening sequences are too suggestive...delete language,"...and both were naked"; their subsequent apron of fig leaves will NOT be a suitable garment in the case of the female. Also, the tempting of the female by the serpent seems to have sexual connotations; recommend serpent be substituted with frog or badger.

2.Caution in excessive violence throughout,particularly in the case of God drowning over 99% of Mankind; also, we must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful central character who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for His mistakes. In order to make this character more sympathetic, please delete His exhibitions of wrath, and also any indications of a personality insecurity, such as His constant demands for praise. Sons and daughters of Noah cannot be shown & described as repopulating Earth, as the Television Code forbids incestual relationships; recommend a FLEET of Arks, or perhaps strong swimmers from other families can be saved.

3.Delete continual references to "virgins"; such description of the character Mary is acceptable, as a story point, but only if it is clearly indicated that her relationship with main character is totally platonic; otherwise, a marriage ceremony MUST be indicated.

Specifics in the portrayal of their Son:
1)He cannot be shown as practicing medicine without a license...
2)Delete His biased political views, such as,"Peace at all costs"...
3)His mocking of established courts & judicial systems
4)And His ridiculing of normal attitudes toward Capitalism, Profit, and the laying-up of treasures.

All of this is further complicated by your description of the character; MUST He be shown as "bearded and barefoot"?

In summary, a rather extensive rewrite seems indicated; it is suggested that the writers be constantly guided by the question, "Is this suitable for Family Hour Viewing?"

Copyright ©1972, Gene Roddenberry
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 225
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Posted: 3/31/2010 8:32:45 PM

It is when you start thinking that the spaghetti monster is watching YOU, judging you, will sending you to hell, want you to feel guilt, wants to be honored, will protect you, is the only true entity out there and every other believers are wrong -- that's when it starts killing your critical thinking..


I will not take you on point for point, CS, as you & I agree on the salient points. I will comment, though, that for the most part, we ALL indoctrinate our children, whether it be in regards to religion, self respect, gender difference, etc. The child raised in a household full of violence, drug use, etc. has as little (or as I contend, as much) choice as the child raised with religion. Extremism is more likely in such households than it is in those households where the members attend weekly services. Very few are those who live in a vacuum whose seal is so tight that they are not exposed to alternate views or lifestyles, and I retain my belief that the majority of those who are raised surrounded by a belief in a god or no more harmed insofar as their capability to discern fact from reality or for reasoning, and for the most part, far less so. Even so, indoctrination is a fact of life.

In this thread in particular, I have been responding to those who exemplify such judgment of others as to project themselves to be as you describe in your last sentence, and that is true of anyone who chooses to find only the extreme or " bad" in any opinion that doesn't match their own, whether it be towards the opposite sex, those with opposing views on God (gods), single parents, whatever. Using such a wide brush is always evidence of diminished capacity, if you ask me.

As an aside, I was "indoctrinated", attending church, Catholic school, even, and what I was taught about God bears little resemblance to your described "spaghetti monster". Perhaps I was lucky, but I know I wasn't alone. It is all too convenient to ignore the importance of comfort, forgiveness & the equality of all men as focal points of many religions. We are all searching for SOMETHING, and if your search makes you more content, happier.... well? Just sayin'.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 226
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Posted: 4/1/2010 3:57:38 AM
"The child raised in a household full of violence, drug use, etc. has as little (or as I contend, as much) choice as the child raised with religion."???
Your not saying there is no violence or drug use in homes with religion are you? If you are you would be wrong. One more time atheist tend to be better educated and have higher IQs then believers. This gives children a better start.

"Extremism is more likely in such households than it is in those households where the members attend weekly services. "???
Tell the Hutaree (Michigan-based Christian militia group) that lol.

Your facts are off again! Just sayin.

 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 227
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Posted: 4/1/2010 6:35:24 PM

"The child raised in a household full of violence, drug use, etc. has as little (or as I contend, as much) choice as the child raised with religion."???
Your not saying there is no violence or drug use in homes with religion are you? If you are you would be wrong. One more time atheist tend to be better educated and have higher IQs then believers. This gives children a better start.


I said no such thing, and you know it. As usual, you have tried to find a way to turn this into YOUR discussion. It is you, btw, whose logic is faulty; atheists do NOT tend to be higher educated with higher IQ's. Even if it is true that a fairly high percentage of atheists are intelligent, the two are most certainly not the same, and faith and intelligence are most definitely not mutually exclusive. Your supposition in order to equate the two is merely convenient, not based in logic. Not only that, your statement actually supports my argument. The less educated are more easily swayed, but theism is not the only thing that sways, or even encumbers them. As a matter of fact, the number of atheists are so greatly outnumbered by the theists that a comparison such as this can not be made reliably. Any child lucky enough to be born with intelligence has a better start whether their parents believe in God or not. Your attempt to insult the intelligent of those who believe in a god fails, once again.

In any case, my point remains, ALL children are indoctrinated, and some have less choice than others, for many reasons, the majority of them having little or nothing at all to do with religion, and certainly not theism, which is not the same as religion, as much as you try to make it so. To single out the extreme minority and use that small sample to try to make broad generalizations speaks not to the reasoning abilities of those who disagree with you.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 228
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 4/1/2010 7:54:04 PM
theism, which is not the same as religion

Unless you are employing equivocation and shifting the context, ...what's the difference between theistic and religious?

atheists do NOT tend to be higher educated with higher IQ's.

Actually, atheists do tend to have higher IQs and are more prevalent among those with post secondary to post graduate education as opposed to those with high school or less, statistics support this.

faith and intelligence are most definitely not mutually exclusive.

I don't see where exclusivity was stated, just statistical reality.

Your supposition in order to equate the two is merely convenient, not based in logic.

Faith in a deity requires the suspension of reasoned logic, ...the law of parsimony for example.

As a matter of fact, the number of atheists are so greatly outnumbered by the theists that a comparison such as this can not be made reliably.

Statistical reliability is tied to sample group size, not to sample criteria.

ALL children are indoctrinated

Wrong

indoctrinate
verb [ trans. ]
teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically

Teaching a child critical thinking is the antithesis of "indoctrination", by definition (sigh)
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 229
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Posted: 4/2/2010 3:08:07 AM
"It is you, btw, whose logic is faulty; atheists do NOT tend to be higher educated with higher IQs "
You can debate why this is true, but it is true!
IQ's."http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/healthday/636619.html?chan=rss_topEmailedStories_ssi_5
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-less-likely-to-believe-in-God.html

"I said no such thing" But you did say such a thing why I used what you said in my post!
Fact is people with higher educations and higher IQs are less likely not more likely to live in homes with violence or drug use. There is a direct corolation to what I posted. Like wise there is a real link between "Extremism" and theism. Your saying extremisim is less likely is wrong also. You may not like these facts but they are facts; what they are not are insults, even if the facts make you feel bad they are still just the facts.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 230
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Posted: 4/2/2010 5:54:36 AM
First of all, freetime, I certainly did NOT say that there was no incidence of drug use or violence in homes where there is religion. Reread. Additionally, I never mentioned any correlation between intelligence & drug use, violence, or religion; you brought that up. It may make you feel good to spout your contentions as facts, but it is you who are wrong. What proof do you have that those who believe in a god are more likely to be extreme than a child/spouse/drug abuser? The resultant psychological effects on both the users & the offspring raised by those with substance abuse issues can hardly be called less extreme than the resultant effects on the children whose parents take them to mass each week. The fact is, the majority (of Americans, at least) do profess a belief in God, yet most of those are not extreme, and their children suffr no ill effect from this belief or participation. The fact is, most theists are moderate in both the practice & application of their beliefs. There is nothing wrong with opposing extremism, but call it such. The constant need to "prove" that theists are lesser beings not only fails, it points to poor character. I contend that the link of which you speak (between extremism & religion) is really a ink between ignorance & extremism, whether the particular extremist view relates to religion, race or some other extremist view. Those who "sign up" for extremist organizations are likely looking somewhere to belong, and lacking the resources to find that from within, or in society in general.

Having said that, boy, I must have been tired, as even I can't quite discern what Iwas trying to say in my last post! Oh well, stone me! I do get that a higher degree of those with high IQ's choose not to believe in a god. So? A higher number of those with high IQ's are socially deficient, as well. Neither provides evidence of superiority, nor has it anything to with the discussion regarding the ability of a child to grow unencumbered by their upbringing, which was the topic at hand at the time. The less intelligent among us hold no claim to obtuseness, as is quite evident here.

Once again, I note the difference between blind adherence to organized religion and theism. It is simply not the case that merely believing in God causes one to lose their ability to reason. There most certainly is a difference between (the majority) who believe in God, may attend church, weekly or on holidays, and those zealots of whom you all speak.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 231
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Posted: 4/2/2010 6:40:31 AM
Posted by you: "The child raised in a household full of violence, drug use, etc. has as little (or as I contend, as much) choice as the child raised with religion."

That is what you said! and as we all know, a child raised with religion is just as likely if not more so to be in a household full of violence or drug use. Rember atheist tend to have more education and higher IQs then believers and people with higher IQs and more education are less likely not more likely to abuse drugs or be in a violant home.

Q:What proof do you have that those who believe in a god are more likely to be extreme than a child/spouse/drug abuser?
A: A belief in god can and does have a corolation to etreme behaivor, just look at the news. Now the child/spouse/drug abuser was your point not my point, but they are found in house with religion also. Again atheist make up about 15% of the USA population, but they acount for less then 1% of the people in jails here.

"The fact is, the majority (of Americans, at least) do profess a belief in God, yet most of those are not extreme, and their children suffr no ill effect from this belief or participation." Yes, the USA has more people believe in god then any of the other countries in the G-8. It also has the highest rates of murder. Japan is the most atheist nation in the G-8 and it has the lowest rates of murder. To say there are no ill effects is a leap that is not supported with the facts, but you have shown one more time ether you do not understand corolations or facts or you just do not care about them!

"I do get that a higher degree of those with high IQ's choose not to believe in a god."
"atheists do NOT tend to be higher educated with higher IQ's."
Do you see the problem between your posts? I do!
 EGJV
Joined: 9/13/2008
Msg: 232
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 4/2/2010 9:23:39 AM

Teaching a child critical thinking is the antithesis of "indoctrination", by definition (sigh)

Feeling the pain of trying to reach the obstinate? I see it happens to all of us...
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 233
Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 4/2/2010 9:59:57 AM

Teaching a child critical thinking is the antithesis of "indoctrination", by definition (sigh)

Feeling the pain of trying to reach the obstinate? I see it happens to all of us...


Fortunately for the obstinate, they can invoke Stephen Colbert's word, "truthiness".


Truthiness is a satirical term coined by television comedian Stephen Colbert[1] to describe things that a person claims to know intuitively, instinctively, or "from the gut" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or actual facts
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
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Posted: 4/2/2010 5:55:09 PM

"The child raised in a household full of violence, drug use, etc. has as little (or as I contend, as much) choice as the child raised with religion."???

freetime:
Your not saying there is no violence or drug use in homes with religion are you? If you are you would be wrong. One more time atheist tend to be better educated and have higher IQs then believers. This gives children a better start.



I said no such thing, and you know it. As usual, you have tried to find a way to turn this into YOUR discussion.


That is what you said! and as we all know, a child raised with religion is just as likely if not more so to be in a household full of violence or drug use. Rember atheist tend to have more education and higher IQs then believers and people with higher IQs and more education are less likely not more likely to abuse drugs or be in a violant home.


The first quote above is what I said, to point out my view that religion has no more or less an effect on a child than other factors in their household, extremes aside. What I didn't say, and what you continue to insist that I did say, even though your quoting me proves otherwise, is that religion & violence/drug use are mutually exclusive. I will not have you put words in my mouth! (so to speak). Your consistent statement of your feelings as fact "and as we all know...", is annoying; we most certainly do not all know. The mere fact that the majority believe in a god means that a high percentage of drug users/abusers, etc. do profess religion, but in & of itself, it is meaningless. Unless of course, one has an agenda, and thinks they can convince everyone that anyone who believes in God has absolutely no other influence on their life. That it is the belief in God that leads them to drugs, spousal abuse, whatever, and that is, quite frankly, asinine. Human beings, regardless of their intellect, are complicated (even men!). Besides, you continue to talk about zealots, when I am clearly pointing out the difference between a religious zealot & a theist.

In any case, mere correlation does not prove cause & effect. There are many, many highly intelligent beings, as well as scientists, doctors, etc. who are theists.
 want to travel
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 4/13/2010 10:53:07 AM
i believe the bible should be put on a shelf in a library, right next to mein kamf and the koran, under hate
these religions and beliefs should be history, and to subject young children to these ideas is the worst kind of abuse, it takes the right of critical thinking away from them,
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 236
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 4/13/2010 8:37:31 PM
I have never read the bible, and I am not sticking up for any of the books you mention, per se, but do you realize that your words show you to be hateful? As I have said before, religion & the books involved in teaching them are not in & of themselves detrimental. Overzealous, close minded individuals are, and they exist in every religion, every atheist community, every culture, everywhere. Many are the adherents to religion who were taught (indoctrinated, brainwashed, if that's what you want to think) that God is loving & that the most important aspect of the Bible is to love one another & treat others as you would have them treat you. I fail to see the harm or hate in that, or how it limits one's ability to think critically.

First of all, critical thought involves judgment about what to believe. The lack of exposure to any kind of belief system takes away critical thought, which, btw, is not a right. I would imagine some would even argue that it is a God given gift. What makes you think it is ever abusive to subject children to ANY idea?
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 237
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Condoning Atheism.
Posted: 4/14/2010 5:14:30 AM
"I have never read the bible" yet you are a Catholic? How is that? Your telling us that your a Catholic that has never read the bible, I think that might not be how it works, to be a real Catholic I just think you might have had to open the bible a few times lol.
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