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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Greed... is good? I definitely think so.      Home login  
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 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 26
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.Page 2 of 14    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)
People also are living a much higher standard of living today than ever before. Even in the poorest countries.

Blatantly false. The people in Haiti today are worse off than at just about any point in their history. Most of the people in Central Africa are FAR worse off today (under capitalism) than 100 years ago, when they lived in tribal communities. People in Venezuela today are much better off than they were only 10 years ago, but don't thank capitalism, thank Chavez's socialism for bringing them free education, medical care, land to farm, etc.

You seem pretty young, so you can probably be excused for not knowing, but in North America, the standard of living has been on a steady DECLINE since about 1970. (Don't let the advances of technology fool you; they didn't have video games back then, but I assure you, they weren't missed.) In my opinion, the quality of life has been on a steady decline in North America since well before that. In 1948, a single breadwinner working a 48 hour week could support a family of four in comfort (House, car, usual crap, and Mom could stay home & raise the kids - properly). By 1975, it took two breadwinners, each working a 35 hour week (70 man-hours) to have that same standard of living, but this time Mom wasn't home to raise the kids, many of whom came to be called "latch-key" kids, raised by the TV & other kids in the neighborhood. Little wonder society is in such a state of decline; the family it was based on came apart at the seams.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 27
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/11/2009 7:08:26 PM

the people in Central Africa are FAR worse off today (under capitalism) than 100 years ago, when they lived in tribal communities

Your argument that our buying power has gone down. That is 100% true. Our currency has been and is continued to be debased. There is no debating that.

But that is different than standard of living, which is based on comfort. We live MUCH more comfortable lives today than we did back in the 70's. Debate that all you want, but you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that you're right.

And please support your argument that central Africa is worse off today than they were 100 years ago with some evidence. Tribal life, you know, is no walk in the park.




People in Venezuela today are much better off than they were only 10 years ago, but don't thank capitalism, thank Chavez's socialism for bringing them free education, medical care, land to farm

Nothing is free. You think those teachers and doctors are working for nothing?

Chavez took a nation torn apart by hyperinflation and found some level of equilibrium though a socialist structure. Take Bolivia as another example of a South American country torn apart by inflation, at nearly the same time. They chose to move in the direction of capitalism and free markets. And they have improved at over twice the rate as Venezuela (as measured by GDP/per capita wealth distribution).

Every other example in history where you have two similar regions, filled with the same people of the same cultures and backgrounds.. where one region is socialistic and one is capitalistic, the capitalistic region ALWAYS supports a higher standard of living for the average person.

North Korea/South Korea.
China/Hong Kong.
East Germany/West Germany.
USSR/Modern Russia
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 28
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/11/2009 8:10:58 PM
Why is that? Capitalism. Capitalism allows people to start businesses to pursue profit. This has led to mass food, automobile, textiles production, etc. So people's pursuit of profits for themselves has allowed us all to live better lives.


Oh good grief, why didn't you just say you wanted talk about capitalism, in the first place?


Every other example in history where you have two similar regions, filled with the same people of the same cultures and backgrounds.. where one region is socialistic and one is capitalistic, the capitalistic region ALWAYS supports a higher standard of living for the average person.


Not true. The standard becomes higher for some people, not all people.

Before we look abroad, let's look within the States...

There is currently a 10.2% unemployment rate in the yes. That seems awfully high. 1/10 of the total population. Wow.

How about all of those minimum wage jobs?

The highest percentage income bracket for average household is still 10,000 a year to 15,000, and is holding at a rough, 13%.

So that is nearly one quarter of the population that is barely scraping by...

The problem is that the gap widens between the rich and poor, in a typical capitalistic society.
 Island home
Joined: 7/5/2009
Msg: 29
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/11/2009 8:17:21 PM

The problem is that the gap widens between the rich and poor, in a typical capitalistic society.

This would be because some think greed is good

Greed is not even good for the greedy because it makes them targets for the greedier
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 30
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/11/2009 8:44:11 PM

Your argument that our buying power has gone down. That is 100% true. Our currency has been and is continued to be debased. There is no debating that.

But that is different than standard of living, which is based on comfort. We live MUCH more comfortable lives today than we did back in the 70's. Debate that all you want, but you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that you're right.

Yes there's no debating that the buying power of money has declined; in fact your dollar is worth 4 cents (compared to 90 years ago) and falling fast. HOWEVER, if you had bothered to read my post, you would have seen that I was talking about "comfort" and not "buying power" when I talked about the decline in the standard of living.

Your claim that we live much more comfortably than we did in the 70's rings pretty hollow. Firstly I was there to see it and watch the steady decline over the years...Were you? If you weren't, then on what do you base your assertion? I don't think I'd have a hard time convincing anyone of the veracity of what I'm saying, with the possible exception of you. Since you weren't even born in the seventies, I assume you base your assertion on some sort of statisical/financial analysis that you read somewhere; can you produce it? I can guarantee I'll show you the lies & distortions in it, since it was obviously some sort of propaganda op ed and not a proper historical statistical/financial analysis of the living standard.

On the subject of the tribes in Africa, take a good look at what colonial capitalism has wrought, shall we? Have a look at the history of places like Somalia, Niger, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Ethiopia, and Uganda. Ask yourself if they were worse off growing their own food for their own domestic markets. Ask yourself if losers like Mugabe or Amin would have become tribal chiefs in the absence of support from outfits like the World Bank, the IMF or Britain, who made them presidents. Have a look throughout central Africa with millions dying of AIDS and all the families falling apart because the old man has to go live a hundred miles away just to get a job that pays barely enough to support him, let alone his now remote family. I agree, tribal life was no picnic, but it HAS to be an order of magnitude better than what they have to endure today.


Nothing is free. You think those teachers and doctors are working for nothing?

I know some teachers who went to central & south America to teach. They took a HUGE cut in pay to do so. Ask yourself why well-off teachers would leave a comfortable life in a wealthy North American district to go to Central America to work for peanuts and actually have to build some of the schools they're going to teach in. I don't know any doctors who went to South America, but I know a couple who went to Asia to work for almost nothing because they simply felt they had to go where they were needed and they were needed there. Greed? Hardly!

Chavez took a nation torn apart by hyperinflation and found some level of equilibrium though a socialist structure.

Actually the hyperinflation never got too extreme and had moderated by the time Chavez got elected. The standard of living of the average Venezuelan was abysmal and getting worse until he moved in. It has been improving steadily ever since.

Take Bolivia as another example of a South American country torn apart by inflation, at nearly the same time.

Bolivia's hyperinflation was short-lived and in the mid 1980s. Morales only took office in 2006. I was unaware that he implemented any capitalistic reforms, but even if he had, it would be much too soon to see any major results. I find it VERY hard to believe Morales would move to "free market" reforms. Prior to Morales & Chavez those countries were at the mercy of the IMF. Ask the Argentinians what they think of the IMF.

Don't fall for that "free market capitalism" propaganda. Quite simply, capitalism is poison to free enterprise and soon squelches it in favour of corporate monopoly.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 31
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/11/2009 8:46:58 PM

The standard becomes higher for some people, not all people.

It becomes higher for most people. No one said it becomes higher for everyone. But on average the people who benefit the most are the poor.




here is currently a 10.2% unemployment rate in the yes. That seems awfully high. 1/10 of the total population. Wow.

It is high. And that's the government's skewed numbers. If we calculate unemployment the way we did back during the depression, unemployment is over 17%. But count on the government the make themselves look better rather than actually make things better ;)

But your point is null from the outset. We do NOT have capitalism in the United States. We haven't for a long time. What we have today and have had for decades is corporatism - a toxic mix between big business and government. Between that, and our flawed monetary system, wealth has been flowing from the poor to the rich.

I won't go as far as to say that flat out socialism is better than what we have. But I will say that you are correct in pointing out flaws in our system. But you are missing the source. The flaws are the result of our government working for multi-national corporations. In a free market, this wouldn't be the case.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 32
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/11/2009 8:53:21 PM

There are thousands of people who belong to the Small House Society who live in homes that are the size of a camper. They use a composting toilet, ride a bike or walk most places, don't eat anything they don't grow or harvest, use little water and then its from rainwater they have collected. They have less than four outfits, two pair of shoes for seasonal changes. And in many ways they are modern day hermits. They detest materialism and believe less is more. And they dont have any excess of anything. And their ethical core tells them as Ghandi was supposed to have said 'Live simply so that others may simply live'.

Props for being able to point out an inconspicuous minority that I assume everyone was able to figure out by themselves. It doesn't detract from my point that according to their logic, the developed world is full of sh**y people who live in excess.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 33
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/11/2009 8:55:29 PM
Please, all you bleeding-heart socialists. Expand your mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-o0kD9f6wo
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 34
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/11/2009 9:05:01 PM

on average the people who benefit the most are the poor.

What planet did you say you lived on?

What we have today and have had for decades is corporatism - a toxic mix between big business and government. Between that, and our flawed monetary system, wealth has been flowing from the poor to the rich.

That was the first sensible thing you've said. I see now that you are only mistaking capitalism for free enterprise. Make no mistake, capitalism and free enterprise do not go together. Smith's theory sounded nice, but the economic realities have shown over the years that he based his theory on VERY flawed assumptions. I can't blame him, I doubt that in his day they even knew there was such a thing as the psychopathic personality. Smith assumed there was some good and some conscience in all men. He didn't know that about 5% of people have no conscience, compassion or sense of decency. Guess who rises to the top under a capitalist system.

Capitalism is a game of monopoly that was won about two hundred years ago by the best players. They are known today as the international bankers and globalists. They have been siphoning off the wealth of most nations for many years now. (now you know why almost all countries have national debts and to whom they are owed). What a buncha selfish, greedy ba$tards, eh?
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 35
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/11/2009 9:22:26 PM
Yep. Tens of millions of people did, and continue to immigrate to the United States and other capitalistic nations because they wanted their wealth to by siphoned off and to be taken advantage of.

You're spitting the same Brezhnev rhetoric crap that hippies used in the late 60's before setting up social communes where everyone worked for each other. No money, no greed, no capitalism. And we all know how long those lasted.


The fact of the matte (and I dare you to argue against this point) is that the majority of the human race has always lived in tyranny and misery. The ONLY places where the common man has able to escape from poverty and make a decent life for himself has been in where there is capitalism and free trade. There are no exceptions to this.

Capitalism is the single most powerful engine for eliminating poverty. And for some god damn reason, you bleeding heart socialists cannot understand it O_O
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 36
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/11/2009 9:45:13 PM
You're spitting the same Brezhnev rhetoric crap...

How little you know. The USSR had a central bank much like the Fed in the US. It was run by the same people. In point of fact, the USSR was a capitalist plot. Rothschild wanted the Romanoffs killed because they didn't want a Rothschild controlled central bank in Russia. They also helped Lincoln out during the civil war, which also pissed off the Rothschilds. Guess who financed the Russian revolution and guess what Lenin did when he took power.

And we all know how long those lasted.

What makes you think they're gone?

the majority of the human race has always lived in tyranny and misery.

No argument there, but aren't you getting tired of it?

The ONLY places where the common man has able to escape from poverty and make a decent life for himself has been in where there is capitalism and free trade. There are no exceptions to this.

Bullsh¡t! One needn't look too far to find a counterexample; Norway comes to mind immediately. They are considered the happiest people on earth. They have a higher standard of living than we do in North America and they are a socialist nanny state, where many of the large corporations are government owned and run. Don't confuse "free trade" with "free enterprise"; they are worlds apart.

Capitalism is the single most powerful engine for eliminating poverty. And for some god damn reason, you bleeding heart socialists cannot understand it

FREE ENTERPRISE is the single most powerful engine for eliminating poverty. Capitalism CREATES poverty, in fact it demands it, because whether you know it or not, capitalism is just a mask for economic feudalism.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 37
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/11/2009 10:09:33 PM
But your point is null from the outset. We do NOT have capitalism in the United States. We haven't for a long time. What we have today and have had for decades is corporatism - a toxic mix between big business and government. Between that, and our flawed monetary system, wealth has been flowing from the poor to the rich.

I won't go as far as to say that flat out socialism is better than what we have. But I will say that you are correct in pointing out flaws in our system. But you are missing the source. The flaws are the result of our government working for multi-national corporations. In a free market, this wouldn't be the case.


Oh! You little snot! You are too friggin' clever by half! (Either that, or I am giving you far more credit then you deserve. I am going to go with the prior, since I am an optimist.)

You are absolutely right. My point was null from the get go...


Tens of millions of people did, and continue to immigrate to the United States and other capitalistic nations because they wanted their wealth to by siphoned off and to be taken advantage of.


They immigrate to the U.S. of what they think they are getting, not by what they are actually getting.


And we all know how long those lasted.


Hey! They are still around...and growing in numbers, according to one of my friends.


The fact of the matte (and I dare you to argue against this point) is that the majority of the human race has always lived in tyranny and misery.


I can't. Believe me, I want to, but given human recorded history I can't.

And that makes me very sad. Oh...I want to argue with you all right...I just can't.

But I do believe we are capable of living in the antonyms, of tyranny and misery...


Capitalism is the single most powerful engine for eliminating poverty.


The only way a pure capitalistic society, could operate and eliminate poverty is if it
was a free-market society. "Free", as in free of governmental regulation, except for safety and inspection.

So the answer to the question, that everybody is going to want to know is..."so how will people get paid?" (I already have an idea for this...)

Okay. Now, that I am at the end of this post I have done a one-eighty of my opinion of you.

You are honestly brilliant. I am almost certain we were soulmates in a previous life...
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 38
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/11/2009 11:33:04 PM

the USSR was a capitalist plot. Rothschild wanted the Romanoffs killed because they didn't want a Rothschild controlled central bank in Russia. They also helped Lincoln out during the civil war, which also pissed off the Rothschilds. Guess who financed the Russian revolution and guess what Lenin did when he took power

Oh noezzz, teh bankersss!!!!

Quit nut-hugging the Zeitgeist conspiracy theory and look around you with your own eyes. People are, on average, much better off where capital is privately held than where it is held by government.




What makes you think they're ((the communes)) gone?

Oh. Well maybe it's the fact that in over 50 years they have yet to accomplish anything significant. No electric cars. No rocket ships. Not even a sweet cell phone. If they exist, they're filled with nothing but hippies.

Nothing against them, but that is not my cup of tea. And not most people's either. I like my laptop, cell phone, cheap food, and work-from-home job ^_^




No argument there, but aren't you getting tired of it ((human misery))?

Sure am. But I'm getting more tired of people like you, who sh*t on the one hope humanity has to bring prosperity to the masses. People like you are blind to the plain and obvious fact that giving economic power to individuals rather than government is the to creating wealth and distributing it to the masses.




Norway comes to mind immediately.

Norway is an awesome country. I studied there for a semester and enjoyed it a lot!

The people there are well of. I wouldn't say any better off than we are though. GDP numbers can be tricky.

But, let's look at some facts. First of all, Norway does not have to spend 21% of it's tax revenue on a military. US tax payers pay for the defense of Norway, and for the rest of Europe, for that matter. We spend just as much on defending the world as we do on social security, which is the 2nd largest expenditure of our massive federal budget. Europe, including Norway, has the pleasure of being able to spend what they would have spent on military, on other public works.

Moreover, the discovery of oil in Norway not too long ago is a huge factor for their current prosperity. And they don't have to deal with environmentalists preventing oil drilling on our own land, like we do. That source of prosperity is independent of government structure.

And lastly, if you control for obesity - something related to culture, not government - the average American lives about a year longer than the average Norwegian.

It's not as clear-cut as you might think. Norway is great. But it's not some paradise like many will have you believe.




They are considered the happiest people on earth

Actually, I read a study showing that Rio de Jinero was the happiest city on earth. Sydney was 2nd. None were in Norway. There weren't any in the US, either. I believe Singapore was on the list too.

I remember this study because Brazil is one of the most capitalistic countries in Latin America. Their economy has been booming, and I was thrilled to read this study ^_^




Capitalism CREATES poverty

You couldn't be more wrong. But you have succeeded in tiring me out.

I will leave you with one nugget I like to share with you bleeding-heart liberals.

The Ford motor company, over it's history, has done more to improve the lives of average folks than the Ford Foundation has ever done.

Offering products to sell for profit is a good thing for everyone, so long as your transactions are voluntary.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 39
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/11/2009 11:42:37 PM
Don't confuse "free trade" with "free enterprise"; they are worlds apart.


Free enterprise are businesses that follow the laws of supply and demand, and are not restrained by government interference, regulation or subsidy. (I got this definition from Investor word.)

Free trade is much broader than that. Free trade is not only businesses free from governmental regulation, but the utilization and distribution of goods and services that don't reflect the true prices of supply and demand.


capitalism is just a mask for economic feudalism.


I know nothing of Canada, but here in the States, I was taught that we were a free trade capitalistic society. I always thought the problem was capitalism. I never stopped to consider free trade.

Because capitalism in its purest form, isn't a bad thing (I cannot believe I am saying this...I am a friggin' communist, dammit!), since it puts the capital in the hands of the laborers and distributors. The government really shouldn't be seeing a dime.

So the current definition of capitalism, that is commonly accepted, is a mask for governmental regulated free trade.

In a capitalistic free market society, poverty could be eliminated, since the laborers and distributors could define what that capital is. (It doesn't have to be paper backed by gold.)

Being the anarchist at heart that I am, I can see how greed might be a good thing...(did I just post this out loud?)


Offering products to sell for profit is a good thing for everyone, so long as your transactions are voluntary.


I can go on a whole other tangent on this, but I am going to save it for tomorrow.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 40
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/12/2009 6:07:30 AM
Free trade is much broader than that.

Free trade is supranational in that it "dissolves" national borders and takes economic control away from a country, placing it in the hands of multinational corporations.

capitalism in its purest form, isn't a bad thing ...since it puts the capital in the hands of the laborers and distributors.

That's exactly what it DOESN'T do. Capitalism puts the means of production (capital) in the hands of a few who control it and profit by keeping labor costs down. Since labor doesn't get full value for its production, there is less to spend at the consumer level, what money is spent goes first for the necessities with very little left over, so this hurts the economy. The difference between the labors real value and its cost is pocketed as profit by the capitalist, who in a very real sense has become the equivalent of a feudal lord, employing serfs to farm his land.

It all comes down to the profit motive. Quite simply if you get money you didn't earn, you got it at someone else's expense. You can say you got it because you are entitled to a return on your capital investment, but why should inert capital yield more than fixed value (no profit)? Your money doesn't "work" for you, people do. In my mind, profit is "something for nothing." Now we all know you don't get something for nothing, so where does profit come from? Profits come as a loss on somebody else's part.

"The wheels of capitalism are oiled with the blood of the worker." -- Adil on "The Simpsons"
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 41
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/12/2009 8:09:32 AM

Free trade... "dissolves" national borders and takes economic control away from a country, placing it in the hands of multinational corporations.

Free trade opens borders and allows merchants to sell where there is the highest demand and customers to buy where there is the lost cost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pl_FXt0eM




Capitalism puts the means of production (capital) in the hands of a few

Oh.. so THAT's why we have hundreds of millions of people with their personal money invested in our public companies! IRAs, 401ks, and trillions of small-investor (I'm one of them, and you could be too) dollars are actually not held by people like me. They're REALLY held by a few psychotic men at the very top.

You are fuc*ing blind, my friend. You refuse to see what is right in front of you.

Name a single one of your "evil" and "tyrannical" multi-national corporations that isn't held in large-part by millions of private individuals. You'll be thinking for a long, long time.

I own capital. I'm a business owner. My best friend's father, hardly a rich man, began manufacturing solar panels by mortgaging his house to buy solar laminator. He's been pretty successful so far. My parent's neighbor owned a small printing company that employed, I believe, 12 people. My father just recently became a landlord.

It is an absolute MYTH that capital is owned by a few evil, rich men, who control the world with puppet strings. No. Capital is owned by hard-working individuals who invest their time and/or money into it. There is no two ways about it.



In my mind, profit is "something for nothing... Profits come as a loss on somebody else's part

Wow. Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooow. I'm starting to think you're a comunist now.

This Marxist bullsh*t has been proven wrong over and over and over again.

If a man becomes filthy rich by investing in a new, lower-cost mean of production of a product, and is able to undercut his competitors (why he is able to sell so much to become rich in the first place) then his profits are the result of the money he saved his customers. They now have more money in their pockets to buy other products and services, from other merchants, increasing employment in those fields.

This isn't rocket science, buddy. That's why Henry Ford died a rich man after inventing the model T. Are you honestly trying to spew the nonesense that we all would have been better off had the model T NOT been invented?

This sh*t wouldn't hit me so personally if I weren't living proof of just how wrong you are. I make a living selling laptops that compete with a particular Dell and HP model, despite the fact that I'm running a 3-man show. I found a way to bring a superior product to market at a lower cost. Anyone who buys from me instead of buying the equivalent model notebook from Dell or HP ends up saving money and receives a more powerful computer. And I profit from this.

You seem to think what I'm doing is bad. That I'm somehow sapping some poor soul from his income, and that THAT is the source of my profit.

No, buddy. I profit because I take a piece of the pie from the money I have saved my customers. That's the best, most honest way to make money if you ask me.. or any other sane person.

You, my friend, are a well-spoken fool. The most dangerous kind of person.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 42
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/12/2009 8:51:05 AM
Wait for JustDukky to pop in here saying I'm wrong. That when you drive down the street and see shop after shop, when you eat at a franchised restaurant, when you see so many commercials for small-business loans, it's all a farce setup by the few psychotic men at the top to keep us all blind to the truth


...what a friggin' moron
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 43
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/12/2009 8:57:25 AM
Dude. Humans figured out how to cover the basics a LONG time ago.

No one NEEDS to drive a BMW. No one NEEDS a two-story house. No one NEEDS 31 different flavors of ice cream.

The average worker in the developed world today can cover his/her basic needs (food, shelter, clothing) though only a small fraction of their income.

Therefore, the rest is, by its very nature, excess.

You don't NEED to go to college. You put a roof over your head, food on your table, and clothes on your back working a "normal" job. People go to college because they want MORE than they NEED.

They want EXCESS. Therefore they are greedy.

But it is a good thing.

This concept is so friggin simple. You people are just closet socialists who think anyone who consumes more than they need is evil.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 44
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/12/2009 11:48:14 AM

Name a single one of your "evil" and "tyrannical" multi-national corporations that isn't held in large-part by millions of private individuals. You'll be thinking for a long, long time

The Fed, The Bank of England, the BIS, etc., etc....


I own capital. I'm a business owner.

Correction. If you think you are a person, and a citizen, you don't own capital, the government does. You don't own anything; your "person" does, and your "person is government property, so the government owns it all. They want you to keep working and paying taxes, so they let you think it's your stuff, when really, they can take it away from you anytime they want (just like they confiscated all the privately owned gold in 1934).

If you think its not evil enough to think you might be owned by your government, wait'll you find out who owns THAT...You got it, a few evil men who basically own the planet and milk it of its wealth.


I'm starting to think you're a comunist now.

Starting to think??... I've said so many times...What's so tough that it only dawns on you now?


This Marxist bullsh*t has been proven wrong over and over and over again.

Show me where.


This isn't rocket science, buddy.

Quite right. Consumer dollars stimulate demand. Low wages and taxing the worker translates to less demand for products. Look at it this way, a stable economy is one where the money flows in a circular fashion, without loss of value. Owing to bank usury and profit taking (which pulls the money out of circulation and puts it in somebody's pocket), we have a situation that $100 of produced labor value gets reduced to say $50 worth of purchasing power at the consumer level, the other $50 goes to taxes & profit. Arguably, the taxes (except for income tax) go back into the economy as government services and the profits get invested back into the economy, but the reality is that both income tax and the loan interest gets pulled from it at the whim of the bankers, who play the economy like a fiddle.


I found a way to bring a superior product to market at a lower cost. Anyone who buys from me instead of buying the equivalent model notebook from Dell or HP ends up saving money and receives a more powerful computer. And I profit from this.

Yes you do, but I dare say that you've earned your money. This is distinctly different from being BORN into a controlling interest in the economy. There is nothing wrong with paying yourself what you are worth (which is what you are really doing). The real shame of it is that you aren't the real titleholder of what you produce, your "person" is, and your person (and all its property) is owned by the government, who lets you USE what you think is yours to keep you serving what you think is your interest and not theirs.

You, my friend, are a well-spoken fool.

I think you should look into my seemingly foolish, outrageous allegations. Believe me, everyone is being played for a sucker.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 45
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History
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/12/2009 12:03:33 PM

You're operating under the assumption here that everyone hates their job.

No, I'm not. I'm operating under the KNOWLEDGE that the motivating factor, for the vast majority of people, is to provide for themselves and their families.



As if they wouldn't be doing it at all if it weren't lucrative.

As I've said before, there are many reasons why people take their particular job. But in the vast majority of cases, people wouldn't work if they didn't get paid for it. Otherwise they would simply volunteer (better hours, nicer bosses).



There are plenty of people that love what they do.

No sh*t. I'm one of them. I work from home, set my own hours, and make a decent living doing what I love.. working with computers and helping people save money.

But not even I'm arrogant enough to say that I would be doing what I'm doing if I weren't getting paid for it.



And food and shelter are not greed.

Obviously not. But in the developed work, most people can provide food and shelter on 1/3 of their income. Take a roommate, eat rice, apples, etc. It could easily be pulled off.

But we want MORE than what we need. We want to live in excess. How many f**king times do I have to make this point. The sole fact that we WANT more than we need, the fact that we want bigger homes, cleaner carpet, endless supplies of food.. the fact that we DESIRE EXCESS, that we are greedy, is the VERY reason that drives us to innovate, to constant improve our conditions, and to live more comfortable lives.

THIS IS SUCH A BASIC CONCEPT.

Why can't you people grasp it lol :(
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 46
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/12/2009 12:36:25 PM

we DESIRE EXCESS, that we are greedy, is the VERY reason that drives us to innovate

Do you really think any of the great innovators or inventors had profit in mind when they came up with their ideas?


THIS IS SUCH A BASIC CONCEPT.

Why can't you people grasp it

I think most people grasp the concept, it's just that they likely disagree with you that it is a good thing. Most of us see it as part of the decadent moral decline of our so-called civilization and hardly something to be proud of.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 47
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/12/2009 1:06:24 PM
@ Ubiquitous


...what a friggin' moron


First off...please stop with the insults aimed at Dukky. a) Your thread will get closed down. And this is a very provocative thread. b) They are entirely unnecessary. c) I will probably get snowballed from every direction with this statement...if you have ever read any of Dukky's other postings, the sentiments of them are not quite so different from your own. There seems to be a strong desire to address the problems we face now, merely different ways and philosophies of coming up with a solution...

Which is why I am digging this thread. For the first time in a long time, I am questioning my assumptions on how I view how things work in the world, and I am given the opportunity to explore other ways of looking at things. I am not saying I may become a corporate-money-grubbing-greedy-pawn. I couldn't even if I tried. But I like looking at things from different angles, so I can make a more informed choice and so that I may more define my value system, and the impact I have on the world around me. So can we please try to keep it friendly...okay?


The flaws are the result of our government working for multi-national corporations.


This is what stuck out the most for me. Because based upon my observations, and my research, this is absolutely true.

Only there is a bit of a contradiction, with this statement:


Name a single one of your "evil" and "tyrannical" multi-national corporations that isn't held in large-part by millions of private individuals.


Oddly enough, I can see how both can be simultaneously true. Going with that premise...I think that the culprit of the problem is unequal distribution of wealth and profit.

Ubiquitous, I am going to play devil's advocate with you. (Please don't take it personally.)


The average worker in the developed world today can cover his/her basic needs (food, shelter, clothing) though only a small fraction of their income.

Therefore, the rest is, by its very nature, excess.


This is true. The question is, what does one do with the excess? Buy a large house? One larger than what you actually need? Who the heck is going to clean it? Sure, you could hire a maid service, but what about the expense of maintenance? You will have to work more in order to maintain the upkeep. At what personal cost are you willing sacrifice, for that house? Your time? Your family? Your time with your family?
Say, you put that excess in stock, or mutual funds. Are you not putting it in the very hands of the of the multi-corporations who are ruling the government? What if the government who is ruling, is not one who's principles you agree with?

Just some thoughts.


Free trade is supranational in that it "dissolves" national borders and takes economic control away from a country, placing it in the hands of multinational corporations.



Free trade opens borders and allows merchants to sell where there is the highest demand and customers to buy where there is the lowest cost.


And I stand corrected. I was confused about what
free trade
actually
was
. I had thought that free trade allowed the distributors to provide an artificial price but this is incorrect. Thank you, guys. I get to learn something new...

@Dukky


That's exactly what it DOESN'T do. Capitalism puts the means of production (capital) in the hands of a few who control it and profit by keeping labor costs down. Since labor doesn't get full value for its production, there is less to spend at the consumer level, what money is spent goes first for the necessities with very little left over, so this hurts the economy.


I think that this is what it has become. I think it is capitalism that has been subverted. Pure capitalism puts profits in the hands of the laborers and its distributors. The conflict arises with the distribution of unequal wealth. When one party receives more than the other, based upon comparative value.

But playing devil's advocate, (mostly to myself), this brings up the question of the power differential. A power differential exists when one party holds a greater responsibility for the outcome of a situation than the other. I have to deal with this, within the context of ethics every time I work. Mine is within the scope of my practice, and thus more manageable since it is a service to one client at a time, but what about the owner, of the clinic I work at? He and his wife have become my friends. I have seen them struggle to make ends meet, for about the first 10 months of the opening of the clinic. After that, they finally started to make a profit. A "profit", by their definition means they don't have to exhaust the little savings they have left over, after investing in the business. That I work at. And they really do not have much of a higher standard of living than I do. And truthfully? I am fairly certain that is not what they want. (A super-high standard of living.)

@MetDblack


Capitalism (pure or impure, is there honestly a difference?) does not give the capital to the laborers.


Yeah...I think there is.
Pure
capitalism would. But our current model does not. I think it attempts to, under government rule, but often fails. (Enron) I have already given my opinion on governmental ruled corporations...Ubiquitous, brought up an excellent point about 401ks, etc...

The question is...what are the 401ks, and other benefits distribution, based on? And this is where I see the negative side of greed, because in a corporation, the occurrence of unequally distributed wealth, is more likely to occur. Small business owners often (not always), take that power differential more seriously, than corporate CEO's, who dictate according to their own avarice, and only have to deal with faceless employees.
Small business owners do this more seriously, I think, because they have to deal directly with their employee, on a day to day basis.


He convinces the labourer he is helping him with the line "Don't worry about your pay, i'll handle the payroll" so the guy can focus on his work right? It might work in principle but when you have the value of things such as work being defined by people outside the sphere who are primarily interested in the notion of "generating more for less" rather than seeing intrinsic value in work (it's all about the money) the theory kinda goes to pot.


I think that this is a form of capitalism we have now, and is also a form of corporatism, that is based upon a comparative value system, and competition for resources.

What if it was based on something else...


This sh*t wouldn't hit me so personally if I weren't living proof of just how wrong you are. I make a living selling laptops that compete with a particular Dell and HP model, despite the fact that I'm running a 3-man show. I found a way to bring a superior product to market at a lower cost. Anyone who buys from me instead of buying the equivalent model notebook from Dell or HP ends up saving money and receives a more powerful computer. And I profit from this.


Small business versus a corporation. I always try to support small businesses, as much as possible.

I don't know what your laptop is like...I might even like it...but gosh I really want a macbook. I guess that makes me a hypocrite. Above all else, I have to be honest with myself, as much as I can. It provides an endless supply of amusement...
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 48
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History
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/12/2009 1:26:59 PM

How often do you look over the news and see greed constantly being blamed for our current financial crisis? Corporate greed, greed on Wall Street, greedy speculators, etc etc.
Greed is NOT blamed for our current financial crisis. It's greed to the point of stupidity that is blamed.

We all know that "what goes up, must come down". We KNEW that the housing market was a bubble that would eventually burst. But lots of bankers bet the farm that it wouldn't. That's not greed. It's stupid greed.

Problem is, when people get greedy, they get stupid. It's rational to be stupid when you are greedy. You don't NEED that extra money. Yes, it might lead to inventions. But that isn't why people are greedy. People are greedy when they try to get more than they NEED, by any means possible, continually. Eventually, the odds are going to turn against them. It's irrational to keep playing to win until you lose. So to be greedy, you need to be a bit nuts, and it's precisely that little bit of craziness that stops you accepting the situation when things start to go bad, and make you stay in it, until you lose your shirt.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 49
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/12/2009 1:29:08 PM

THIS IS SUCH A BASIC CONCEPT.

Why can't you people grasp it lol :(


In other words, you don't want an actual discussion or debate, you want all of us to say "My! What a clever boy you are. You're absolutely right."

Sorry, no. Not how it works.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 50
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/12/2009 1:46:02 PM

we're suckers for consumerism

Consumerism is just a professor's way of saying "desire for excess", which we have collaboratively agreed is called "greed".

So you've just proven the first half of my point -that people are greedy.



most of us haven't taken the time to figure out how to be happy

Sorry to say it (I really am), but humanity will never be 100% content and 100% happy without genetic engineering. We are WIRED to want more, to desire excess, to always strive for something better. Call it what you want, but it's greed.

And it's geed that has driven us to invent all of the things that make our lives more comfortable today. Without it, this thread would never have existed.. and I would have not had the pleasure of meeting all you fine socialists :)



a happy homeless man is better off than a miserable millionaire

Well, sure. If you define "better off" as degree of happiness, then anyone happier than anyone else is "better off"

But if we didn't have this constant desire to want more than we have, how many diseases wouldn't be cured? How many illnesses wouldn't we have medication for? How would live be without remote controls? Or airbags? Or vacuum cleaners?

In your ideal society, where people are just happy when they have food, a place to sleep, and rags on their back, then the next disease epidemic or the next asteroid that comes our way will wipe our race out. Thank god for capitalists who are paving the road to give humanity a shot at survival and (hopefully) traveling to the stars.
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