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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Greed... is good? I definitely think so.      Home login  
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 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 76
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.Page 4 of 14    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)

Wal-mart, distributed a product from China known to have lead in it. A necessary product...like its for children product...clothes.
Even after they knew it was unsafe, they still continued to distribute the product.
It wasn't until local activist groups put pressure on the Consumer Products Safety Commission, that anything was even done about it. Meanwhile, the unsafe product was continued to be distributed, and who is Wal-mart's target market? Low income families.

How many people died or were injured?

I don't care if aspirin has anthrax in it. If it hasn't caused harm, then.. it hasn't caused damage to the consumer.




1. 060-2009, Cream of Mushroom Soup (mislabeling / undeclared allergen)
2. # November 12, 2009 - Synthes USA, Ti Synex II Vertebral Body Replacement - Class I Recall
3. November 09, 2009 - Edwards Lifesciences CardioVations EndoClamp Aortic Catheter - Class 1 Recall
4. October 27, 2009 - Qualitest Pharmaceuticals Issues a Voluntary Nationwide Recall of All Accusure® Insulin Syringes
5. October 20, 2009 - American Regent Voluntarily Recalls All Lots of Ketorolac Tromethamine Injection
6. October 06, 2009 - Unomedical Issues Worldwide Recall of Certain Manual Pulmonary Resuscitators
7. October 01, 2009 - Neuron 6F 070 Delivery Catheter [Penumbra]
8. September 28, 2009 - Philips Issues Worldwide Recall of Select Heartstart Fr2+ Automated External Defibrillators
9. September 21, 2009 - Portex Uncuffed Pediatric-Sized Tracheal Tubes (sizes 2.5, 3.0 and 3.5 mm)
10. September 16, 2009 - FDA Requires Boxed Warning for Promethazine Hydrochloride Injection


I was referring to his particular example. But lets roll with yours.

These are recalls. Yes. Bravo. I was calling for examples were damage had actually been done.

Anyone who has police and the justice system on their side (the government) can force a recall and claim "I saved your life". Unless you can demonstrate clearly that X, Y, and Z product that was recalled actually did more harm to consumers than good, then you aren't proving anything.

I've said it time and time again. You cannot take what the government tells you at face value. The governmental is going to do what is in it's best intrests.. and that is to make itself look good.

I challenge you to find examples where businesses have profited from hurting consumers.

If you REALLY believe what you're saying, you'll attempt to prove that the world's largest regulating body - the FDA - saves more lives than it kills. But you'll be trying for a long, long time.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 77
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 11:12:36 AM
Upon further inspection..



4. October 27, 2009 - Qualitest Pharmaceuticals Issues a Voluntary Nationwide Recall of All Accusure® Insulin Syringes
5. October 20, 2009 - American Regent Voluntarily Recalls All Lots of Ketorolac Tromethamine Injection
6. October 06, 2009 - Unomedical Issues Worldwide Recall of Certain Manual Pulmonary Resuscitators
8. September 28, 2009 - Philips Issues Worldwide Recall of Select Heartstart Fr2+ Automated External Defibrillators

Four of your examples were companies recalling their own products, on their own. These are examples of the market regulating itself.



10. September 16, 2009 - FDA Requires Boxed Warning for Promethazine Hydrochloride Injection


And your last "example" was a simple label requirment. A politician will be quick to tell you this new label has saved lives.. but unless you can demonstrate that it has you are full of shit.




So half of your examples are not examples at all.
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 78
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 11:27:08 AM

A politician will be quick to tell you this new label has saved lives.. but unless you can demonstrate that it has you are full of shit.
unless you can prove what a politician says is true,you are "full of shit" ? where are we - bizzarro forum ?
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 79
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 11:30:33 AM
Did you even read the page you linked to? Honestly????????


"Home Inspection Standards Require Dangerous Activities"

Did you see the electrician who was killed performing a dangerous standards inspection in his state that wasn't required in other states?

This is the government..mandating a dangerous inspection.. that kills electricians.


"the Standards of Practice for home inspectors (such as those published by ASHI, NAHI, CREIA, and CAHI) require home inspectors to open electric panels, a task not performed in many states during some other types of inspections, we and our clients face additional risks"

So the politicians in some states feel it is their duty to force private electricians to perform dangerous inspections that gets them killed... for the POSSIBLY of saving lives.

BULLSHIT.

Unless a politician has evidence that the mandated inspection that kills X inspectors a year saves X lives a year, he is KILLING PEOPLE.



How is this not unethical?




This shit happens all the fucking time.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 80
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 11:36:03 AM

How is this not unethical?

Everybody knows a politician's job is to not get caught for his unethical activities. After all, if he did, how could he get elected to betray the public interest in the first place?
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 81
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 1:00:54 PM

Did you even read the page you linked to? Honestly????????


Yep. Sure did.


"Home Inspection Standards Require Dangerous Activities"

Did you see the electrician who was killed performing a dangerous standards inspection in his state that wasn't required in other states?


I read far enough down to see this:


The gruesome death by electrocution shown in the photograph occurred when the man shown tried to steal electrical power from a high voltage cable.


The man killed was not a home inspector. It was a sensationalist tactic (the picture).

I told you that it was a link was to safety procedures, for home and electrical inspectors.

I was 1) seeing if you would check my sources (because I always do), and 2) to see if you would figure out where I was going with it.

Remember... I am exploring the idea of a capitalistic free-market economy, because idealistically, it could work. But I always have to look at the opposition, so I may identify the flaws in my reasoning.

I will go into the recalls another time.

Unfortunately I have to tear myself away from this computer, and get back to work (which I absolutely LOVE btw.)

This whole thread, has really gotten my brain juices going.

Thank you, Ubiquitous.
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 82
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 2:14:04 PM

Did you see the electrician who was killed performing a dangerous standards inspection in his state that wasn't required in other states?


I read far enough down to see this:


The gruesome death by electrocution shown in the photograph occurred when the man shown tried to steal electrical power from a high voltage cable.


The man killed was not a home inspector. It was a sensationalist tactic (the picture).

I told you that it was a link was to safety procedures, for home and electrical inspectors.

I was 1) seeing if you would check my sources (because I always do), and 2) to see if you would figure out where I was going with it.
Cold, that's so cold :)
Lovinit.
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 83
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 3:23:25 PM
Personally, I think that this whole argument can be boiled down to one concept...

Greed, or the desire to advance, can be a good factor for motivating people in their endeavours... so long as it is not the SOLE factor that motivates them.

People who hold that greed should take precedence over any and all other considerations, are just as flawed as people who hold the opposite.

The trick, therefore, is in striking the proper *balance* between ALL factors.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 84
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 3:32:49 PM
@ Len
I think there was some confusion between greed and self-interest, with greed being what I'd call excessively self-serving self-interest (i.e. trying to get more than you merit).
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 85
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 4:05:21 PM
Quite possible, Dukky. Greed can also be referred to as excessive ambition - but no matter how you define it, excessive *anything* can be dangerous.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 86
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 4:07:23 PM
Look, people. I know I come here brash and a bit hard headed. But sometimes you need to have a to be to-the-point when you challenge a large, collective group of people against a culturally ingrained concept.

Here are some facts.

A bit over 200 years ago, our constitution was drafted and a new nation was born.. one that left people free civilly, politically, and economically. And during that period, we have acheived a great deal.

Despite the fact that for over 99% of human history, the great bulk of humans have lived in poverty, starvation, and tyranny, in a few generations, freedom has allowed us to live much better lives. In the last century alone, we have doubled our life expectancy, have cut infant mortality rates to a fraction of what they were. We have cured dozens of diseases, fed more people than ever before, have put more people in homes than at any point in human history.

None of this came about by government. It came about by "greedy" businessmen who were looking to make their lives better for themselves and their families by making and expanding profitable companies that used labor (employed workers), organized capital (machines, buildings, etc), and took investment (time/money/effort) to produce things that people were willing to work for.

Look. A few short generations ago, the average person was a farmer. 100% of their labor went to feed themselves. They worked 16 hour days to provide food, shelter, and some dirty clothing. Their labor couldn't afford anything else.

But today, in the free world, your labor get's you so much more. The average person in the developed world can provide food, shelter, and clothing with only 10-20% of their working days. The rest of their labor can go into whatever you want. If you want a cell phone, you can get one. You want a laptop and internet, go for it. If you want a car, save some money and you've got it. And not to mention, we no longer are forced to work 16 hour days. We get all the comforts we have working an average of 8 hours a day.

Now ducky will come in here with some New World Order, Rothschild mumbo jumbo, claiming that our masters at the top have done all this so that they can keep their slaves (us) alive and working for them longer.

I say no. I say that freedom has lead to so much prosperity. And its easy to lose sight of it. But if you get a sense of proportion, you realize just how incredible people are and the amazing things that they can do when they are free.

There is no such thing as a perfect world, even if a politician promises it to you.

The fact of the matter is, free enterprise works. When capital is controlled by individual entrepreneurs instead of monolothic government, our interests are best served.

Remember. In a free economy, a business cannot take a dollar out of your pocket unless you give it to them. Government can. Government is a coersive force, and must be limited to only the roles it is suited for (policing, justice, defining rights, basic infrastructure). Otherwise, politicians use the power of government to control business, often by taking advantage of politicized incidents, to expand their own influence. But government can never control business. If government has power in the marketplace, then that power will ultimately fall to business interests and to individual politicians. And when this happens, your money (pieces of your property) CAN be taken out of our pockets, against our will, in the form of excessive taxes, inflation, and higher prices of products you NEED to buy.


Freedom, not government, is the source of the incredible advancements humanity has made in the past few generations. Anywhere government gets involved where it shouldn't be, problems arise.

Give me freedom, or give me death.


..sometimes I get choked up when I think about our incredibly enlightened founding fathers and of the soldiers who fought for our independence. F*ck, I'm such a pus*y sometimes.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 87
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 5:06:09 PM

Look, people. I know I come here brash and a bit hard headed. But sometimes you need to have a to be to-the-point when you challenge a large, collective group of people against a culturally ingrained concept.


Actually, you're coming across more as an arrogant young buck who is high in opinion and low in actual experience. But hey, I thought I knew everything when I was 23, too. Took me a while to realize, rather than having all the answers, I'm far from having all the questions.

You want respect from "the group" though, perhaps not referring to them as "dumbasses" is a good way to go. Not that I care what you think of me. It just closes the door to actual, thoughtful and considered discussion.


Freedom, not government, is the source of the incredible advancements humanity has made in the past few generations. Anywhere government gets involved where it shouldn't be, problems arise.


Rhetorical with no real substance. Yes, freedom is a hard fought, hard won privilege. However, the problem I have with these discussions is when people start talking about "government" as some big, monolithic thing that operates with one mind and one purpose and that purpose is to end freedom.

Face it, corporations allowed to act independently and without oversight is a bad idea. Corporations only have one motivation. Profit. Do you really think you want to work the way they did at the beginning of the industrial revolution without thought given to worker health and safety? Or consume products that were produced without consideration given consumer safety?

These were changes that were brought about by movements and legislated...by elected people.

Is it a perfect system? Hell no...the problem is the people who do the job. Some are good at it. Some aren't. But it's like a life jacket in a boat. Uncomfortable and an annoyance when you don't need it, but better to have it just in case.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 88
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 7:28:47 PM

However, the problem I have with these discussions is when people start talking about "government" as some big, monolithic thing that operates with one mind

No one said it does. At least not me.

I've maintained throughout this thread that government is a conglomerate of politicians and special interests. And because I operate under the knowledge (not opinion) that all humans act upon their self interest according to their own value system, I understand that politicians will act selfishly and special interests will act selfishly.. even if they truly, honestly believe they are working for the public good.




Face it, corporations allowed to act independently

Eeeeep. Hold it right there.

You are acting hypocritely. You're referring to "corporations" as single, monolithic things.

A "corporation" is nothing less than a legal concept. When you're talking about a "corporation", you are talking about either the stock holders of the corporation, the employees of the corporation, or the customers of the corporation. We're talking about people here. Like you and me.

I know you know this. But sometimes we lose sight.




corporations allowed to act independently and without oversight is a bad idea.

To some extent, yes. This isn't a perfect world.

But just like with people, the vast majority of businesses do good to the vast majority of their customers. Otherwise they wouldn't be in business.

The question at hand is how do we limit the harm the bad people and the bad businesses can do to the rest of us. And freedom is the answer.

As soon as you take freedom away, as soon as you give a government body the power to control a people or an industry, the big players in that population or industry will seek to, and inevitably take control of that power. This is just as predictable as any other law of nature.

The damages a bad company can do when it's operating in a free economy are limited. But when it takes control of a part of government that has oversight over the economy, that bad company can do a great more deal of harm.

When a part of government has power over a part of the economy, and a business takes it over, that business uses that power to hinder it's competitors and to finance projects that benefit itself (with tax-payer money, as opposed to it's own).

This is where the real harm from companies come from. An irresponsible company, acting harmfully, without government sponsorship, will die quickly. But that same company, who has government on it's side, can continue to exist.






Corporations only have one motivation. Profit.

And how do you suppose a company makes profit? Do they steal your money?

They make money by selling goods and services that people want to buy. If people weren't better-off with those products and services, then they wouldn't buy them.

Are people sometimes hurt by a product. Of course. Billions of them are sold every single day. Shit happens when you deal with numbers that large.

If damages are caused because executives of a company acted negligently, then our justice department has an obligation to make them pay for the damages they cause.

Companies, you know, don't want to be bad. They want to please their customers. If their customers aren't served, it doesn't matter how greedy and profit-motivated the stock-holders are.. the business will be out of business in short order if it can't please the majority of it's customers.




Do you really think you want to work the way they did at the beginning of the industrial revolution without thought given to worker health and safety?

This is one of the greatest fallacies when it comes to critiquing the free market system.

At that time if I were an average person, I would have much rather worked in a factory in the city than on a farm out in the country. And so did the majority of the population. How else do you explain the fact that they moved en masse, away from their farms and to the factories? Do you really it was so that they could be exploited? It's not like it was one big trick, you know. It lasted for generations. You'd think if people who moved to factory-life were getting the shaft, word would get out after at least a couple years.

If you look back now at the conditions in the turn-of-the-century factories, of course the look bad. But you know what was worse? Life on the farm. That's why people voted with their feet and left their farm to move to industry. On the farm, people dealt with, real, no kidding around, starvation on a daily basis. People literally died from from the cold every winter. Work was from dawn-to-dusk, and all that work was only enough to provide food on the table. And sometimes that wasn't even enough.

You need a sense of proportion when looking at these things. Yeah, by today's standards, factory-life was rough. But farm life was miserable.





These were changes that were brought about by movements and legislated...by elected people.

Were certainly on the rise before unions came about. But, I will agree with you to a great extent. If corporations are organizations of stock holders, then we ought to have an organization of workers. That way they are better able can negotiate pay and benefits.

The problem is precisely in the latter part of your statement. Legislation.

Organized workers can express a great deal of influence without government on it's side. When government gets involved with them, unions can become too powerful, just like when government gets involved with business. Unions can dominate entire industries. One of the biggest reasons for the failure of the American auto-industry was the dominating power of the United Auto Workers. Had the government-imposed regulations that heavily favored unions not existed, the union would not have been able to mandate so much paid time off, so high of wages. It is very likely that if the United Auto Workers weren't so powerful, we would still have a profitable auto industry, and Michigan wouldn't have an unemployment rate approaching 20%


Unions, acting as a collective group of workers, funcion properly, and are a positive force in our economy. Unions that use government pass laws that benefit their privileged members at the expense of non-union workers, at the expense customers (higher prices) and sometimes at the expense of the company itself.

We ought to have unions in this country. It's the best way for workers to collectively negotiate with executives for better pay and benefits. That process is based on freedom and voluntary cooperations. But as soon as the government gets on one side or the other, unions or business, problems begin to arise.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 89
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 8:08:47 PM

A "corporation" is nothing less than a legal concept. When you're talking about a "corporation", you are talking about either the stock holders of the corporation, the employees of the corporation, or the customers of the corporation.

Actually, when you are talking about a corporation you are talking about a legal person, with all the rights that you have and then some. For instance your liability is unlimited; a corporation's liability is limited. Is that fair?


the vast majority of businesses do good to the vast majority of their customers.

In the larger corporations, that gets turned around a bit. I don't see much good being done by the largest corporations; in fact I'd say a lot of what they do is downright evil & harmful.

how do we limit the harm the bad people and the bad businesses can do to the rest of us. And freedom is the answer.

Yes freedom, and making corporations FULLY LIABLE under the law would go a long way to cleaning up the corporate world.

And how do you suppose a company makes profit? Do they steal your money?

The ones who lend it to your country at interest do, or weren't you aware of "your share" of the national debt that you keep paying on year after year through income tax?

Companies, you know, don't want to be bad. They want to please their customers.

With the exception of the central banks of course. They would rather please the owners than their customers. After all, they have a monopoly, so where are the customers going to go for their money?

At that time if I were an average person, I would have much rather worked in a factory in the city than on a farm out in the country.

And you could have gotten an early start too! Didn't they used to employ child labour? As a little kid, you could have gotten a job as a chimney sweep apprentice (of course you would have had to do the dirty work, since most chimneys were too small for adults). On the other hand, you could have helped your mother out hauling coal up ladders at a coal mine; they used kids in addition to women for that too.

farm life was miserable.

Farm life was hard for the pioneers and many died, but it was also rewarding. I think if given a choice between clearing some land, trying to build a homestead & growing enough to eat or working in a foundry pouring moulds from hot crucibles, I'd opt for the farm life.

If corporations are organizations of stock holders, then we ought to have an organization of workers. That way they are better able can negotiate pay and benefits.

How about a bunch of people getting together, pooling their resources and forming a co-operative operation where the workers are the shareholders and enjoy the profit generated by their capital and labour? Sounds like win-win to me!
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 90
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 8:15:36 PM
And because I operate under the knowledge (not opinion)


Well, that would be your opinion, wouldn't it.


I understand that politicians will act selfishly and special interests will act selfishly.. even if they truly, honestly believe they are working for the public good.


Ah, but we're supposed to trust the free market? Please.


A "corporation" is nothing less than a legal concept. When you're talking about a "corporation", you are talking about either the stock holders of the corporation, the employees of the corporation, or the customers of the corporation. We're talking about people here. Like you and me.

I know you know this. But sometimes we lose sight.


Indeed, a corporation is a legal entity with a group of people at the head with one purpose. Guess what that is.


Companies, you know, don't want to be bad. They want to please their customers. If their customers aren't served, it doesn't matter how greedy and profit-motivated the stock-holders are.. the business will be out of business in short order if it can't please the majority of it's customers.


In a perfect world. Sure. Not a perfect world, though, is it.


This is one of the greatest fallacies when it comes to critiquing the free market system.

At that time if I were an average person, I would have much rather worked in a factory in the city than on a farm out in the country.


So you think. However, not having lived then, you don't know now do you.

Which leads to...


You need a sense of proportion when looking at these things.


Thanks junior, but at 42, I have a few more kilometers on the odometer than you. A "sense of proportion?" Speak for yourself, son.


Were certainly on the rise before unions came about. But, I will agree with you to a great extent. If corporations are organizations of stock holders, then we ought to have an organization of workers. That way they are better able can negotiate pay and benefits.

The problem is precisely in the latter part of your statement. Legislation.


sure. Except legislation can be challenged. I would point out that one of the more regulated banking systems...Canada's...survived the banking meltdown. Yet, the much vaunted, benighted unregulated U.S. system crashed like a plane running out of fuel.

I can guess that you've seen the movie Wall Street a couple hundred times and have the speech by Gordon Gekko committed to memory. H

How about trying on the premise that no system is perfect. However, holding up the free market as a "perfect system" or even "preferable" is naive, in the least. It's about balance.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 91
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History
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 8:27:12 PM
You claim to want balance. That is exactly what a free market system is. No one has any coercive power over anyone else. A business, no matter how large, cannot take a dime out of your pocket. And if it starts harming consumers, it goes out of business. Quickly.

As soon as you give government power over the market, you take power away from people and give it to politicians, who inevitably wind up working for business interests.



Your argument boils down to one thing


I'm older than you, therefore I'm right




Someone's feeling intellectually insecure
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 92
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 8:34:03 PM

Someone's feeling intellectually insecure


sure. have fun with that.


That is exactly what a free market system is. No one has any coercive power over anyone else. A business, no matter how large, cannot take a dime out of your pocket. And if it starts harming consumers, it goes out of business. Quickly.


try reading your history books again. Ever heard of a monopoly? It's not just a game.


As soon as you give government power over the market, you take power away from people and give it to politicians, who inevitably wind up working for business interests.


The nice thing about having legislation is you have a framework for punishing those who act against the better interest. Or had that thought not occurred to you.

Seems to me, your argument style is to insist you're right, everyone else who disagrees with your or finds weakness in your argument is a...what's the word you used? Oh yeah..."dumbass."

Who's feeling intellectually insecure, now?
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 93
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 8:38:27 PM

"How about a bunch of people getting together, pooling their resources and forming a co-operative operation where the workers are the shareholders and enjoy the profit generated by their capital and labour? Sounds like win-win to me!"
Other than having outsiders being able to buy into the "shares", you have described .........................
CAPITALISM.................
I am glad to see that you finally get it!

Gee!...Co-operative...the workers owning the means of production... reaping the fruits of their labour...
Here I thought I was describing COMMUNISM...
I guess I stand corrected, eh?
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 94
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 8:55:14 PM
most people, you included, seem to think, escuse me, feel that communism is just another form of government.

Au contraire...I think communism is like slavery...just a state of mind.
You should know by now what I think of government. Government is for people who can't govern themselves!


there has been way too much theorizing instead of seeing what really works, and as a result too many folks are lost...

We have seen that no form of government really works, so why waste our time...Let's just chuck it!


commu-dukkism

I kinda like that...Has a ring to it...
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 95
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 8:57:26 PM
How about a bunch of people getting together, pooling their resources and forming a co-operative operation where the workers are the shareholders and enjoy the profit generated by their capital and labour? Sounds like win-win to me!


They tried that and it was an abysmal failure. They started trying to go in the opposite direction (keeping in mind, they were actually fight a more monarchical society). Even China is heading more in a "free market" direction, however, with arguably far too many controls.

Yes, I know. I said too many. Because it is possible to go too far in either direction.


Government is for people who can't govern themselves!


Which is why we have a judiciary.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 96
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History
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 9:01:58 PM

Legislation, good legislation, allows the good companies to continue operating

Yep. And despite the fact that they are well-run companies that are doing good for this customers, they still are forced to pay to comply with the regulation. And they are taxed up the ass.

Regulatory costs and excessively high corporate taxes forces businesses to hire fewer workers, charge more for their products, and gives them a massive incentive to ship jobs overseas.

If we had a freer market, far more jobs would stay right here in the US, directly resulting in improved conditions for US workers.





while vetting out the bozo companies.

Like Bernie Mac, that you're about to mention?





the SEC is not legislated to even begin to investigate you

And if you own a small investment firm, scraping to get by, by hiring accountants to produce and file the highly complex reports the require. And if they make a single mistake, you are fined and flagged for investigation.




Without laws and regulations to curb corporations from doing what ol Bernie Mac

Yeah, if it weren't for those regulations.. Bernie Mac wouldn't have been able to.... oh wait.

The fact is, even the SEC wasn't able to stop Bernie Mac.

With the SEC, people tend to not question money managers. They feel safe because the government tells them they're protected. But it doesn't protect them. Bernie Mac doing exactly what he did is as much proof as you need.

This false sense of security is actually worse for investors, not better. It makes them less cautious.

A real solution would be for a private, unbiased company to investigate companies like Bernie Mac's, similar to the BBB. And without the SEC, there would be far greater demand for one. This company (or more likely, group of companies) would have every incentive to produce honest reports of their findings. Otherwise, if they gave a high grade to a lousy investment firm, they would quickly fall themselves.

The SEC, despite taking YEARS to find Bernie Mac, will continue to operate, and continue to give investors a false sense of security.





You call the $700 Billion Bail-out limited?

You're proving my point, dumbass.

You think the PRIVATE MARKET issued the $700,000,000,000 bailout? You idiot. If there is any reason to support the free market, this is it. Without government, all of these companies would have never seen a dime. They would have all gone under. Which is what the market does best to irresponsible companies.

But you're ignoring the fact that these companies would NEVER have been able to do what they did had the Federal Reserve not loaned them trillions of dollars at a 1% interest rate, and Freddie Frannie, both organizations brought about by government, not given them a place to dump the risk of the loans onto the taxpayer.

You're just buying into the political rhetoric that "greedy wallstreet" caused the meltdown, when it was a MASSIVE failure of government, for giving wallstreet the power to borrow trillions, at extremely low rates, and pass the risk of loaning onto government.

That would NEVER had happened in a free market.




You place yourself as being knowledgeable

I am knowledgeable. Live with it.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 97
view profile
History
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 9:05:02 PM
Greed is good for the economy in the same way as lust is good for a marriage.
There comes a point where other things need to be considered.

It doesn't take much imagination to realize that getting married simply for sex wont make a very good marriage.
A man who goes into business simply out of greed for money will make a poor businessman.

There are too many executives and CEO's in our world today who are in business simply for the money. They aren't in the business because they like the business. They look upon their companies like they just hit their own personal lottery.
The problem with General Motors is that all the guys running the company really don't care about making cars anymore. They only care about the money.
This is the fundamental problem which has led to our current financial problems.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 98
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 9:07:04 PM
They tried that and it was an abysmal failure.

I know many succesful co-ops...even belong to one. I'd hardly call them failures.


Which is why we have a judiciary.

So lets keep the judiciary and scrap the legislatures.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 99
view profile
History
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 9:07:25 PM


try reading your history books again. Ever heard of a monopoly? It's not just a game.

I have, bucko.

Name some monopolies. I dare you.

I'll bet the farm you'll have to google before you post your reply ;)


The only monopolies that ever existed in the US came AFTER the company was able to use government regulation to.. regulate its competitors out of business.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 100
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 9:16:21 PM

The only monopolies that ever existed in the US came AFTER the company was able to use government regulation to.. regulate its competitors out of business.

I haven't checked, so I could be wrong, but weren't MA Bell and Edison Electric monopolies? Did they get those monopolies using government regulation?
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