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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Greed... is good? I definitely think so.      Home login  
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 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 101
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.Page 5 of 14    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)

Name some monopolies. I dare you.


Air Canada. Bell Canada. Microsoft.

No googling either, "bucko."
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 102
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 9:36:09 PM
Air Canada

LMAO!

What a tiny market. Not many people want to fly to Canada, buddy. It's such a smaaaall market, especially when taking into account the extremely high costs involved in starting a competing airline

Monopolies in small, non-essential (no one needs to fly) markets are harmless. They still have a huge incentive to please their customers.

Unless Air Canada is killing people or doing shady shit, there's nothing wrong with a small market only sustaining one business. If it's well-run, there's no problem.

If demand goes up (not likely, in Canada), then competitors will pop up.




Bell Canada.

Sounds like a telephone company. If it uses landlines, then it is a utility and should be regulated. Utilities where people don't have a choice are part of "basic infrastructure", which government needs to be involved in, even in a free market.




Microsoft

LOL. Microsoft is far from a monopoly.

There are all kinds of alternatives to Microsoft's #1 product, Windows. Many of them are even 100% free, like Ubuntu ( a great OS indeed!).

The reason people don't use free operating systems is because they don't know how to.

Microsoft's success comes from the fact that it as led the market in developing operating systems that are easy-enough to understand for average, non-techie folks, and has positioned itself to make them available to more consumers. But Apple is catching up!




No googling either, "bucko."


Com'on, man! Monopolies are supposed to be this massive problem, aren't they. Show us some more, smart guy! Let's see the history of people being exploted by them! That's your reasoning for all this government regulation, isn't it!

I'll wait
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 103
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 9:42:26 PM
@ Ubiquitous
Aren't you going to answer my post?
If you are, I'd like to add the Fed to the list of monopolies. Oh, wait, they got the government to regulate that they would be the monopoly that would take over Congresses prerogative to produce money, didn't they?
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 104
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 9:48:20 PM

What a tiny market. Not many people want to fly to Canada, buddy. It's such a smaaaall market, especially when taking into account the extremely high costs involved in starting a competing airline


Cute. You didn't say anything about the size of the market. You just said name a monopoly. I did. Of course, you have to throw in a few "subtle" comments. Please, you want me to take you seriously intellectually? Yawn.


LOL. Microsoft is far from a monopoly. There are all kinds of alternatives to Microsoft's #1 product, Windows. Many of them are even 100% free, like Ubuntu ( a great OS indeed!).


Not always the case...or did you conveniently forget that, for the longest time, Windows was the operating system. Indeed, Microsoft has had its wrists slapped a couple of times for monopolistic practices. And yet...there's laws against that. So now there's more competition. Hmm!


Microsoft's success comes from the fact that it as led the market in developing operating systems that are easy-enough to understand for average, non-techie folks, and has positioned itself to make them available to more consumers.


Actually, you clearly don't know anything about the history of Microsoft, do you. Tell you what. Go read it.


Sounds like a telephone company. If it uses landlines, then it is a utility and should be regulated. Utilities where people don't have a choice are part of "basic infrastructure", which government needs to be involved in, even in a free market.


Ah. So it is a monopoly but, because it's a particular KIND of monopoly, then that's okay? That's call moving the goalposts junior.


Com'on, man! Monopolies are supposed to be this massive problem, aren't they. Show us some more, smart guy! Let's see the history of people being exploted by them! That's your reasoning for all this government regulation, isn't it!
I'll wait


Why? I've made my point. And, actually, monopolies aren't the big problem they used to be. Why? Legislation, perhaps? Government limitations, maybe? Hear that cracking? That's the ice under your feet.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 105
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 9:49:26 PM
I don't know anything about Edison Electric, but MA Bell was one. And it was rightfully broken apart.

As I said above, businesses such as power, water, electric, and telephone companies (that use landlines) are industries where consumers do not have a choice. Thus they are utilities, not businesses in a market, and must be regulated by government, since government is responsible for infrastructure.

This is what was responsible for Enron, you know. Government was too busy trying to regulate everything else that they stopped regulating where they needed to: Natural Gas and Power utilities.

Had government done it's job, the Enron scandal would never had happened.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 106
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 10:06:42 PM
Cute. You didn't say anything about the size of the market. You just said name a monopoly.

Because I thought you had half a brain. Monopolies are large companies that stifle competition, not single, small businesses that operate in a market with only enough demand for one business to exist.

Your "Air Canada" is the equivalent to your neighborhood lemonade stand. Small market, only enough demand for one business, and customers who are happy. No one calls a single lemonade stand a monopoly, despite the fact that it has no competitors.




Microsoft has had its wrists slapped a couple of times for monopolistic practices!

Microsoft has never been a monopoly. I'll grant you that it has been close, at a certain time, but never a true monopoly in the sense that consumers have no choice, and are at it's mercy. Calling Microsoft a monopoly is stretching, and you know it.

The whole "problem" with monopolies is that they're supposed to screw customers. Yet, look around you. Everyone here owns a computer. I own three! And I'm not rich!


If it weren't for Bill Gates, the PC industry would never have advanced as rapidly as it did.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 107
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 10:11:28 PM

Microsoft's success comes from the fact that it as led the market in developing operating systems that are easy-enough to understand for average, non-techie folks, and has positioned itself to make them available to more consumers.

Microsoft's success comes because the IBM PC was considered THE business computer and Microsoft got the contract to provide the OS (before they bought it off a guy for $50k - pretty slick). The outfit that led the market in ease of use and user friendliness was Apple, but it was unable to make inroads in most businesses owing to a paucity of accounting software that accountants were familiar with. Microsoft has been riding on the coattails of it's old success for many years, but it's running out of steam. OS X and Linux are going to predominate in the not-too-distant future.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 108
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 10:14:25 PM
monopolies aren't the big problem they used to be.

THIS is what I was getting at.

I know you can't think of any, so go google around and find some! With maybe ONE exception, you won't find any monopolies that lasted without government power.






Why? Legislation, perhaps? Government limitations, maybe?

On the contrary. The only monopolies that have ever existed came about because they used government to control their industry.



I'm beginning to seriously doubt you have ever studied economic history. I mean it. You are demonstrating complete ignorance of the topic. You don't know what a monopoly is, and you think history is littered with many examples.


ECONOMICS 101: Free markets are a monopolist's worst nightmare.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 109
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 10:19:13 PM

Microsoft's success comes because the IBM PC was considered THE business computer and Microsoft got the contract to provide the OS (before they bought it off a guy for $50k - pretty slick). The outfit that led the market in ease of use and user friendliness was Apple, but it was unable to make inroads in most businesses owing to a paucity of accounting software that accountants were familiar with. Microsoft has been riding on the coattails of it's old success for many years, but it's running out of steam. OS X and Linux are going to predominate in the not-too-distant future.


You're spot on.

Microsoft has had huge success from smart business practices. But now, Apple's market-share is growing and Microsoft's is shrinking. Why? Despite the fact that Microsoft's revenues are so much higher than Apples, Apple is run by better businessmen who do a better job at pleasing it's customers than Microsoft is.

That's how free markets work :)
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 110
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 10:46:08 PM
unless you take your level of thinking to a higher, more complex level of discussion, you can enjoy your little game of Dungeons and Dragons


Translation: "I am unable to counter your points and defend my position. Therefore I won't even try and instead call you simple and childish. That'll get the forum on my side."




You have failed to articulate your understanding

No. And if you believe that, then you haven't read my posts.

I have clearly refuted all of the points you've made. For everyone to see.

But I will sum it up for you in three sentences. I'd add pictures and pop-ups to make it easier for you to understand, but there's only so much I can do though a computer.

==========
You believe that special interests in Washington don't exist, or that they're only a small problem - that it is somehow "government vs business". I know that in our economy, with the government having the power it does, government and business have formed together, at our expense. And the only way to take that unfair economic power away from businesses is to take that economic power away from government - we'd all benefit from that kind of system.
==========


I lived in Washington DC. My uncle is a lobbyist. I know what I'm talking about.
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 111
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 10:50:56 PM
Free markets my...foot. Free markets died with the Industrial Age. Big business of any sort is a poor replacement for any individual having a free way to make a living. Debating how these so called "monopolies are or are not" is just another way of ignoring how the tidal wave of stupidity continues to advance. And that ubiquitous person with three computers who isn't "rich" needs to explain how in the heck he got three computers. And please don't hit me with the open sewers and people dying at forty-five argument. What is happening now is just what needs to happen. A slow dying to reliance on ego and what you own. Greed is stupid, dumb, black, ignorant, diabolical, a poor platform to build on, what led us all to where we presently are ...beginning to understand that yesterday is what led to tomorrow and who cares if you are o.k. and have mutual funds and if you don't...kiss your you know what goodbye and die poor. Greed is good. How flipping idiotic. What led to to the organized work force is what is killing us now. For flippin sure. Everywhere...and that includes any third world country you want to cite.
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 112
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 11:04:38 PM
.....and Paul K. all of these doofuses would probably be eclipsed by you solving all of our problems. I do not think so. You have too much faith in this rotten system. But you are right. In about twenty years I wish I could alive to see ....freedom from ownership. At some point some lessons need to be learned...we are on the way.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 113
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 11:14:07 PM
When you hear "business as usual in Washington", you should take it literally.

Congress has turned into big business.

There are something like 18 lobbyists for each member of congress. And what do you think they're all trying to do?

They're exploiting government power over the economy for their own special interests. We are the losers in this situation. The special interests, and the politicians, are the ones who win.

We'd ALL be much better off if the special interests behind the lobbyists had to compete honestly, in the market.

The only way to break this system of corporatism is to elect libertarian politicians - ones who understand that governments work most honestly and economies are run most effectively, when the government is limited to it's small, proper role.

Politicians like Ron Paul, Rand Paul, and hopefully Peter Schiff, who is running in CT.

"The only politician you can trust is the one who will tell you that you can't trust government. "
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 114
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/13/2009 11:32:23 PM
Get a big shovel. Start to shovel these horrible people out. One way or the other. Life is imperfect but this imperfect? Puhleese. Oxymoron....any politician that says just about anything these days. Many eons ago you could trust them. They did not come along with a silver spoon attached to their lying, deceptive, manipulative mouths and brains.. Ever check out what it costs you to be elected President in the U.S.A....or for that matter one airline Air Canada..in ubiquitous's delineation?? Ach.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 115
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/14/2009 12:32:02 AM

Name some monopolies. I dare you.


Wells-Fargo. Johnson and Johnson. Just to name a couple.


I'll bet the farm you'll have to google before you post your reply ;)


But I challenge you, to offer a reply, without having to look them up yourself. ;)
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 116
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/14/2009 12:33:03 AM
Men tend to ignore. And ambition is as bad as greed because the genesis of greed is ambition. Ambition is only acceptable if checked with enlightened discipline when working towards a goal. Usually too hard to live with. Brush aside the flies in the ointment is the usual course of events. And this path is not only limited to the greedy. It is too difficult to contemplate the imperfections built into living. Greed is still stupid, dumb and very black indeed. But life is indeed free...and go and explore all possibilities and see if you die happy or depraved.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 117
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/14/2009 12:57:00 AM
mtnwldflower..

In what way do you think Wells-Fargo is a monopoly?


Same question for Johnson and Johnson. I knew they made baby wash, cleaning sprays, and bandaids.. and after looking them up, I see they're in a slew of other industries. But they don't dominate any of them. They just look to be a diversified company.




But I challenge you, to offer a reply, without having to look them up yourself. ;)


I'm not foolish enough to not double check my understanding ;)
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 118
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/14/2009 1:19:04 AM
Direct methods such as complacency and indirect methods such as voting. I am really on the side of complacency. Stop voting. Stop greed. Stop it all.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 119
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/14/2009 2:13:05 AM
Don't forget Costco
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 120
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/14/2009 2:59:14 AM
This makes no sense to me.

Because you're an idiot. Or an idealist. I'm not sure which is worse ; )



I gather that greed enables the creation of airlines and the like...

Absolutely. Greed is the desire for excess.

Do you really think the people who start airlines or automobile companies don't do so with the hope of making it big? They desire excess. Therefore they invest and take the risk to start an airline, a car company, perform R&D for hydrogen fuel cells, the list goes on and on and on.

And we all now get to take advantage of their work, which would not have come about had they not had the incentive to satisfy their greed.

Some sugarcoat it and call it "ambition". I see it for what it is. They want more than what it takes to survive. They are greedy.





Since there is only ever a finite set of things on this planet to be used anyway

Only a few things on this planet are finite. Water, lumber, oxygen, corn, carrots, potatoes... they all regenerate.

But you do make a point. Finite resources should be conserved.

But you're not on the topic of greed. It's impossible for one person to own all the water, all the oil, all the trees. So let's stay on topic.




Then it is not incorrect to say that we are excessively using the resources in which we need to survive.

Which ones? Not water. Haven't you heard of the water cycle?

Not lumber. We have tree farms.

Not air. There's tons of it (literally!).

Which life-essential resources are we rapidly depleting?

The only one I can think of is land. The human race is reproducing like there's no fu*king tomorrow. The latest figure I heard, if we maintain current population growth rates (1.3% per year), then in something like 750 years we will have 1 person per sq/ft of the dry land on earth.

That's obviously not possible. Sometime between now and then, birth rates will have to fall and death rates will have to rise until they match.




Want happens when there is an excess of locusts?

This has nothing to do with greed




If a king starts to get greedy will his kingdom last?

I said in a free market system. Monarchies are not free markets.

You should know this.




But maybe there is a twisted definition of greed I'm not understanding.

Anyone with an IQ of that of 10 can understand it. It's the desire for excess - the desire for more than what is necessary.



Anyway one puts it, when greed is involved it is always at the expense of someone or something else.

Wrong again, idiot.

The guy who designed the computer you're on right now. Do you really think he did it because he cared so passionately about your life, wanted you to visit PoF, and be a member of the computer-user community? Maybe.. to a small extent. But chances are he would not have taken the job had it not paid him MORE than what he needed. He could have gotten a much easier job (without having to have such an expensive education!) elsewhere, if all he desired was to provide food, clothing, and shelter for himself.

He wanted more than that. Probably a pretty nice car. The ability to eat out once in a while. You know, things that aren't necessary. He desired those things. Therefore he sought out a nice job designing your computer.

...and now you're telling us he (or she, gotta throw that in there) did so at your expense? Please.



I can go on forever but I seriously doubt that greed is such a good thing.

Greed can be bad. I mentioned this in my original post.

But all in all, the desire for excess is what has driven humans to develop - and our development now allows us to live longer, more comfortable, and more productive lives than ever before in human history.

If we didn't want to live in excess, we would never have invented 3/4th of the shit we use ever day.

Quit sugarcoatin' it.


All the shit around you didn't get there by accident. And it didn't get there because people cared about YOU. It got there because people cared mostly about getting something for themselves.

And what'da know. We all benefit from that
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 121
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/14/2009 3:14:18 AM
I just wanted to post this here. Found it in the perpetual energy thread.




<div class='quote'>Bucky they call him... someone who devoted his life to inventing environmentally friendly inventions. He found a way to build incredibly strong dome-shaped houses that were more energy efficient than the ones we currently have and could be built at half the cost. However, he was stopped from manufacturing them because of "obstacles" and building regulations. In fact, overcoming obstacles proved to prevent him from keeping any of his inventions to coming to fruition in the marketplace.


If you open your eyes, for once in your life, to costs of regulation, you will find countless examples just like this one.

We pay billions of dollars each year, which mostly goes to stifle invention and to curtail entrepreneurs like this guy for the interests of big business.


Wake up and smell the coffee.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 122
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/14/2009 10:08:59 AM
RE Msg: 152 by Ubiquitous.:
We'd ALL be much better off if the special interests behind the lobbyists had to compete honestly, in the market.
I'd agree with this, as lobbying does turn government policy into answering to special interests.

The only way to break this system of corporatism is to elect libertarian politicians - ones who understand that governments work most honestly and economies are run most effectively, when the government is limited to it's small, proper role.
Not quite. The only way to break this, is to restrict the ability of special interest groups to not be able to bribe politicians to their POV, and to restrict choices of elected officials to be those people who have shown they have the kind of moral strength that would not give any support to people or groups just because they offer a bribe or threaten them.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 123
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/14/2009 10:41:34 AM
LOL at the extent to which people react like Pavlov's dogs when they hear certain words (greed, baaad) - at how DESPERATELY people try to explain away the absolute fact that human beings are primarily motivated upon self-interest, including themselves!


Guys. It's OK!


It doesn't make you evil!
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 124
Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/14/2009 10:51:24 AM
It doesn't make you evil!

Yes it does...and that's the point. It may not make you the "antichrist", but little evils add up to become monstrous ones.
I will say that greed is a lesser evil than fear. It is fear that lets evil get out of hand.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 125
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Greed... is good? I definitely think so.
Posted: 11/14/2009 10:58:00 AM
*hands dukky a Kleenex*

Wipe yo' chin, buddy

; )
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