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 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 60
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values? Page 3 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
A-gent, perhaps I misunderstand, but it seems to me that you think that if everyone voted and did what they believed was best, it would make the world a better place.

It is my opinion, based on sad experience that there are certain individuals... many in fact... that do not have my justified happiness or my centered morality in mind when they make decisions in regard to their vote. I have experienced this from juries that went completely against me(the victim)as they sided with the criminals. They could not overcome their snobbery against me, therefore they found me guilty and sided with the gangster, placing him back on the streets to freely rob again and again. The thief I am speaking of was a not an enforcer of just and moral law...but a copy...a pretender...a heavily armed thug...a police officer.

When you ask, do laws represent their societies morals and ethical values, I would have to say....yes and no. You see, when an individual who is casting a vote believes that a law is just and should be enforced, simply because a large group of people chose that law, then I would have to say that the voter is not alert to the situation or is not of a level of intellect to comprehend...probably due to the enormous amount of mind control and programming that has been placed on his mind from birth.

It is scary for individuals to face the truth, that the political, religious and financial world all depend upon deception, fraud, misrepresentation, theft and con artistry to survive. These lawless entities that the masses have placed their hope, lives, property and trust in, are not their friends. The masses are being sadistically used. Even the gangster police officer is being used, because he is willing to be used, and I would probably be right on target to say that the gangster police officer sees him or herself as getting involved as he or she votes, harasses, terrorizes and robs.

If the system itself is corrupt, from the very foundation, you do not use that system to bring about morality and justice. It is like attempting to dilute a toxic poison that individuals are being forced to drink. It is better to find a healthier and more lawful system, then to continue trying to vote goodness into sin.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 61
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/27/2012 1:23:32 PM
I suppose, K, when I say people get the government they deserve, I am talking about people in the institutional sense, not individual.

I appreciate that despite the advances in our collective western culture, there are still many, many, many areas for improvement. There are many things that are unfair. From my own experience as well, it is rare to find truth and justice in the courts. We more often find expediency. And what some people call social justice others may call oppression or exploitation.

And yet, there have been advances.

Perhaps 300 years ago in Europe..... you would have just disappeared. The same can still happen in many parts of this world.

A person who sees something wrong, and does nothing to correct it, is part of the problem.

In a democratic based system, you (any person) can be informed, have intelligent discussions, at the least send letters to politicians and newspapers... find and support others who believe the same as you.

Be engaged.

Turn your anger into a positive force.

What creative steps might you (any person) do to make things better?
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 62
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/27/2012 1:30:55 PM

There are many things that are unfair. From my own experience as well, it is rare to find truth and justice in the courts. We more often find expediency. And what some people call social justice others may call oppression or exploitation.


You are not looking hard enough. It is far from rare. It occurs daily. There may be instances that you can point to and may not agree with but those cases are rarely defined as full injustice. For those instances where it could be seen as injustice than there are ways those can be brought up. It's just not going to magically happen by itself. It requiers effort.

Another big problem is that people do not always recognize what the Just outcome is. It does not mean everyone is left smiling in the end. Sometimes the Just outcome will suck. No different than the truth hurting. I have no idea when it turned into a desire to be protected from all that is difficult, painful, or truthful.

A person who sees everything wrong and sees very little good is also a big part of the problem.
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 63
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/27/2012 2:36:26 PM
Aries, you wrote...
A person who sees everything wrong and sees very little good is also a big part of the problem.

My reply to that is this. My brother Ben, who lives in Idaho, USA...had his newborn son Ezra abducted from him by several police officers, who were sent to Ben's home on orders from health and welfare. The officers had to fight my brother, placing him under arrest in order to take the baby who was being nursed by Ben's wife Trisha. Apparently someone who knew Trisha(no one knows who)called the authorities when Trisha...a nurse...took her newborn son in to weigh him at the doctors office that she worked for. Since Ben and Trisha do not want to vaccinate their children, and delivered the baby at home...certain people did not like their personal decision.

The boy was placed in foster care and Ben had to hire a very expensive attorney and go through insane procedures to get him back. Then they had to go to court to get their names/reputation cleared, because now when someone is charged with child neglect, even when the decision is over ruled, they have a record of child abuse. After spending $30, 000 to defend himself he was barely able to get his son back before he was permanently placed up for adoption.

There are many incidents that I could relate to you. I will give you just one more. Several years ago I was driving in Buda, Texas with my two daughters when an officer decided to pull me over regarding a non working car light. I was not breaking any actual law, and I felt the officer was out of line. I refused to identify myself, wherein the officer called in half a dozen of his gang to help him arrest me. I was taken to San Marcos, Texas where hands were placed all over my body. I was kept in a 6X8 concrete room that was deliberatelly kept very cold. When I had need to use the restroom I was told to use the hole in the floor. I had no food or water. None of my medications. At the time I weighed under 90lbs. I had dared to say no to a gangster...because I was appalled at the way they get away with harassing, interrogating, robbing and caging helpless, innocent people, as they pretend to be just law, which they are not. Yet...I am certain that most of you would say the officer was in the right.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 64
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/27/2012 3:56:59 PM

The officers had to fight my brother, placing him under arrest in order to take the baby who was being nursed by Ben's wife Trisha


This is a difficult situation that I can explain a little bit about.

First off... We are going to say that Ben and Trisha are fake names and they are mother / father and kid.

We do have a very difficult problem. The government has no authority to intrude into someone’s home and imprison / remove custody / of anyone who has not committed a crime. However, people were very uncomfortable with this. Kids were being abused and there was virtually nothing that anyone could do. So, someone came up with the Department of Children and Family Services. An unelected, unappointed, unaccountable, agency that was tasked with investigating claims and making recommendations to local law enforcement. DCFS has absolutely no legal authority. However, their recommendation is taken as though it is considered the 'best course of action,' and their influence with the courts is extraordinarily high.

DCFS made a recommendation that the kid was not in a beneficial environment. DCFS has absolutely no legal authority so what they did was go to a judge to get an order to place the kid in foster care and that order was to be carried out by the police.

The police have no choice but to follow the judge’s order. It is impossible for them to have any opinions at all about the rightness or wrongness of the situation. They were literally used as tools to accomplish the recommendation of the DCFS case worker.

DCFS was given no actual authority.

Because they were given to actual authority and only their recommendation was acted on they are protected from being classified as illegally acting since they didn't actually take custody. The police are protected from being classified as acting illegally because they were just executing the order of a judge. The judge is protected from being classified as acting inappropriately because they were acting in the best interest of the child from the information they were provided.

It's a holy hell of a mess because the agency has absolutely no accountability.

The original report made to the judge and an attorney is needed. The attorney would then show the lack of necessity for the original order. The child will be returned. However, since DCFS has no legal authority any records they have are not part of the courts consideration. The police use DCFS records for information gathering which means the original accusation is permanent

You can thank the liberal establishment for 'protecting children' through an unaccountable and uncontrollable organization. The employees of this organization think they are working for the best interest of children and are completely unaccountable for their actions. The agency should be shut down for its monstrous acts but how do you justify that to people that see the good that they also do...

Making them part of the legal system and held accountable would be an alternative.

This is what happens when people try to over step their own foundation for laws.
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 65
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/27/2012 4:53:10 PM
Aries you wrote...
The police have no choice but to follow the judge’s order. It is impossible for them to have any opinions at all about the rightness or wrongness of the situation. They were literally used as tools to accomplish the recommendation of the DCFS case worker.

My response is this. The Nazi defense used the very same line of reasoning. Many individuals are used as tools to bring forth ill justice against helpless, innocent individuals. It is interesting how easy it is to convince individuals to ruin a family in the name of protecting the children. These entities do not care about children or families, they care only about the euphoria they feel when..."They possess the power to be feared and obeyed....by everyone."

The police know what actions they must perform when they take the job. No one is holding a gun to their head, demanding that they follow orders. They choose to follow unjust orders saying..."We do not make the laws, we merely enforce them!" Unjust laws can not be enforced(matter unformed) until individuals are WILLING to enforce those unjust laws(matter now formed).
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 66
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/27/2012 4:57:32 PM
Aries, why do you say that Ben, Trisha and Ezra are fake names?
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 67
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/27/2012 5:14:19 PM

My response is this. The Nazi defense used the very same line of reasoning. Many individuals are used as tools to bring forth ill justice against helpless, innocent individuals. It is interesting how easy it is to convince individuals to ruin a family in the name of protecting the children. These entities do not care about children or families, they care only about the euphoria they feel when..."They possess the power to be feared and obeyed....by everyone."


Invalid logic. Also there are two forms of "nazi" defense and you are not making it clear which line your comparing.

One: They were just soldiers doing their duty. - They were not actively participating in exterminations. They were people that were doing as expected and fighting for their country. Totally valid.

Two: They were trying to justify heinous acts as just following orders. - They actively participated, condoned and either commanded or were an influencing party to heinous acts - invalid

It is not a fair nor valid comparison to compare the police executing an order in today's world as being equivalent to Nazis war crimes. Small comparisons of some level of logic can be made but not as an equivalence to judge them. The vast majority of warrants issues and executed are legally obtained and valid. It is not possible for an officer in the field to know anything of the case to be able to make any form of judgment. It is literally not possible. They are trained to carry out these duties which are required in society. There is no option to not enforce the law.

Even if the individual officer carrying out the order was a total douchebag and enjoyed it, it is not valid to hold them responsible for doing their job. A necessary job.

They are not enforcing an unjust law. They are enforcing a Just law that may have been used improperly by one individual or organization. They could not have known that. How could they know if any complaints were true or not and what if they refused the order and the complaint was true. That would be seen just as even worse.

--- and the names I said were fake because they add nothing to the discussion other than attempting to assign a personalization to the argument that is not appropriate. There are people with those names in real life and they are not posting on a forum on a dating site.
 R_O_U_S
Joined: 3/20/2011
Msg: 68
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/28/2012 6:41:57 AM
i think it depends on the persons identity in the cultic meilieu, understanding that determinsm is deciede by consequence topologically in simple elementry understanding of the social code and conduct. The inference of cause of humanity's stuggle is to detemine a moral and ethical society in all spectrums each niche of the meilieu having its tacit concepts to the effects of this subject in paralell and other acute spectrums of this subject. The objective is interpeted subjectively. To say there isn't is a diochotemist post-modern approach to say that in the black there isnt when to all aspects to society, there is.
 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 69
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/28/2012 9:34:16 AM
" ... The intention and purpose of laws are to guide behaviour, maintain order and civility and these codes of conduct arise out of basic assumptions and values. Originally our laws stemmed from the Christian 10 commandments and have grown and morphored from there. ... "


Laws, whether Civil or Criminal, exist to REGULATE and CONTROL behavior. They are written for the benefit of the GOVERNMENT, not the GOVERNED. While their source material may be the conceptual constructs of Judaism and Christianity, there has been NO law able to endow men with greater or better rights than the fee simple bundle of rights with which we are born. All laws nibble away at freedoms - some merely do so in a less egregious fashion than others.

Reflecting the 'moral and ethical standards that support Judaeo-Christian values' is NOT the main purpose of any law. POWER and CONTROL, however, are. It is instructive to remember that GOVERNMENT alone has a monopoly on the use of FORCE with which to impose its edicts and guarantee 'compliance', no matter how unwanted said 'laws' may be. Any 'reflection' of the 'values' mentioned, therefore, is purely coincidental to the society, and no causality can be attributed to the 'moral and ethical standards' of the social milieu from which they spring.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 70
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/28/2012 11:05:27 AM
"Laws, whether Civil or Criminal, exist to REGULATE and CONTROL behavior. They are written for the benefit of the GOVERNMENT, not the GOVERNED." Msg 76.

If the laws help protect my property from theft, my family from harm, make it safer to drive on the road because we obey the law, know that there are laws to promote food safety...Laws to keep planes flying safely.... I think as a governed person, I've gotten heaps of benefit.

You know why you can even question the validity of the law... because the law (in a western country) protects that you can. Is that not to your benefit?

You know why a corrupt US governor has gone to jail instead of consolidating a corrupt government not whole lot different than mafia rule... because it was against the law.

Where would we be without them?

Rwanda?

Somalia?

Almost any major US city in a black out?

Vancouver after a Stanley Cup Game?

Let the hooligans rule?

 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 71
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/28/2012 1:21:34 PM
I'm not actually convinced that laws are designed to reflect moral and ethical standards to begin with

Although there are some aspects where it could appear thats what theyre for it tends to be in areas where anything else would cause near anarchy and weaken society as a result

Its a bit naive to not realise that a law that wasnt favoured by practically any government in any country WOULD eventually be repealed, replaced or circumvented by one means or another whether the people ethically or morally wanted it to remain in place or not.

The more important laws areny by any stretch of the imagination for the "peasants" theyre for the peasants owners to ensure that owenership remains as troublefree as possible and always have been
 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 72
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/28/2012 4:53:46 PM
" ... If the laws help protect my property from theft, my family from harm, make it safer to drive on the road because we obey the law, know that there are laws to promote food safety...Laws to keep planes flying safely.... I think as a governed person, I've gotten heaps of benefit. ... "


In response to Nr 77:
There appears to be some confusion. The laws do NOT 'help protect my property from theft'. The laws do NOT 'protect my family from harm'. The laws do NOT make it 'safer to drive on the road because we obey the law'. NONE of these examples occur because of LAWS. They occur because of citizens acting in their own best interests. If you do not take steps to protect your own property, odds are it will be taken from you far easier than if you do take those steps. You know, things like locks on doors, safes, deposit boxes, and so on. If you do not take steps to protect your own family (live in a safe neighborhood, take note of the state of repair of your home, and so forth), you place your family at risk. If everyone on the road drove as if it were their own private game of 'bumper cars' at the Fun Park rather than looking out for their own welfare by being situationally aware and responding to threats coming toward them, there is no law which could possibly act as the guarantor of their safety.

Point being, NONE of these things used as 'examples' occur BECAUSE of laws. The laws, if they do ANYthing, act as an AFTER-THE-FACT 'enforcer' because things have happened IN SPITE OF the law. Laws by nature are REACTIVE and PROHIBITIVE. They are 'obeyed' only because of the penalties they impose BY MONOPOLY OF FORCE - the favored instrument of every government.

Enjoy your life as a 'governed person'. It's a short step from 'governed' to 'ruled'.

It's probably a safe bet you're either a barrister or a link in the 'legal system' (if you don't mind the use of a blatant oxymoron).
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 73
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/29/2012 4:08:28 AM
Chicken and egg argument, isn't it?

Are people guided by the laws or the deterred by punishment of breaking the law. Both.

Take a look at the examples where people thought they could get away with it.

Perhaps it is a short step from governed to ruled... just as short a step to mayhem.

We all benefit more than having anarchy as the norm.
 Inicia
Joined: 12/21/2007
Msg: 74
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/29/2012 5:02:59 AM
only law abiding citizens obey the laws. "Criminals" break the law regardless of the possible incurred consequences. Getting caught makes one a criminal. Surreptitiously circumventing the laws creates free criminals not protected anything. Other countries suffering and the degrees of suffering do not negate the suffering of our Country. Because someone has it worse doesn't improve the person's situation with "less" suffering just their perception.
 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 75
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/29/2012 6:29:26 AM

" ... We all benefit more than having anarchy as the norm. ... "


@ Msg 80:

Just as the dog benefits by praising its leash-holder. Accompanying the 'short step from "governed" to "ruled"' is the gradual (or immediate, depending) loss of freedom and liberty. Once the 'ruled' stage is reached, the Stimulus > Organism > Response schema becomes reduced to a Pavlovian instruction set in which the Organism has personal freedom only insofar as being able to ask 'How high?' when the Rulers say 'Jump!'.

Care to comment on how, precisely, that reflects the 'values, folkways, ethos, and mores' of the society's 'moral and ethical values' ... ? There is no 'morality' in any law - there is only constraint of freedom. There has been, throughout history, a surfeit of governments and rulers who have been only too happy to enforce the 'laws' they established by use of force ... and many burials. Does anyone remember Mao's 'Red Guard' or Pol Pot's killing fields? Or Stalin's intentional starvation of prisoners in the Gulags? What about places with names like Ravensbruck, Auschwitz, Dachau, and Treblinka? What a joy, then, it must be to live a life of happiness and personal fulfillment in the Peoples Workers Paradise known as North Korea ...

Laws, and the establishment thereof, MUST remain under close control and scrutiny of those ones who are the ultimate targets of their enforcement. 'Moral and ethical values' have a nasty habit of disappearing under the bootheel of overzealous writers of those laws and their 'Do as I say, not as I do' approach to Good Government.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 76
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/29/2012 9:29:00 AM
"there is only constraint of freedom" Mr. Knight.

Already well explored in The Lord of the Flies.

"Laws, and the establishment thereof, MUST remain under close control and scrutiny of those ones who are the ultimate targets of their enforcement. 'Moral and ethical values' have a nasty habit of disappearing under the bootheel of overzealous writers of those laws and their 'Do as I say, not as I do' approach to Good Government."

No argument.

The Statue of Liberty would have no place to stand without a foundation of responsibility.
 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 77
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/29/2012 9:31:36 AM
Sorry, but 'Lord of the Flies' is a tale of 'reversion to type', not of freedom. It is an illustration of devolution. It does, however, show quite nicely how thin is the veneer we laughingly refer to as 'civilization'.

The Statue of Liberty is naught but an red herring (a/k/a 'straw man') ...
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 78
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/29/2012 9:34:53 AM
Some of my best friends are former prostitutes. Their stories easily help to represent the moral and ethical values...or should I say the lack of moral intelligence and distorted ethics that make up this ignorant and barbaric world of unjust priest craft.

Brandy(not her real name)is 49 years of age. When you speak to her, at times you think you are talking to a much younger female, or someone who has suffered some degree of mental retardation. Other times she seems quite up on things and very intelligent.

Brandy began selling her body on the streets at the age of 17, after her mother had died. At first the death was ruled a murder, then merely...suicide. Her father had not been involved for quite some time. This left Brandy and her sister alone to figure out how they were going to care for themselves.

By now Brandy was already into drugs, as her mother had been. In fact it was very likely dangerous drugs were the reason her mother had died. With no money or intelligent support to give Brandy any genuine help, Brandy went into the business that always has a steady clientele...prostitution. Because Brandy wasn't of an intellect or appearance to be a high class whore...she took her wares to the uglier parts of town. This was her trade. She had food, drugs, clothes...the bare threads allowed, to give her the push she needed to be a working girl.

Years passed...Brandy had boyfriends of several different races. All of them severely abusive. She gave birth to children from these men. She was a sister, a mother, a drug addict, an abused female both on and off the clock. To on lookers she was white trash. She spent months upon months in jail, which over the period of her career amounted to 6 years. Jail was humiliating, and she was further belittled because of a vast array of unfortunate circumstances. Yet...in truth...in many ways jail was also her refuge. She could receive food and a bed, without selling her body. However, it was not for her safety and well being that she was caged. It was because in the eyes of the perverted world...she was garbage.

Each time Brandy was sent to jail, she was exposed by so called law enforcement officers. Each one of these individuals had done sexual acts with this female, then they placed her in a cage when they were done. On one occasion when she went before a judge who was going to give her 6 months for selling her body, she spoke up in her defense. She said,"But your honor, the officer and I had sexual intercourse 3 times, before he busted me." The judge, was silent for a moment, then replied..."In that case...I will reduce your time to 3 months."
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 79
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History
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/29/2012 9:59:39 AM
There is a line where sense is lost and reality twists.

That line is inside a jail or inside a mental home. There will be criminals as guards because the type of employment can attract those individuals. There will be innocents who have lost their freedom because circumstances made it unavoidable and there is no such thing as perfection. Then there is the majority who are where they ought to be.

It is a highly charged and confusing environment where right and wrong is twisted and confused and the reality is that it is likely that no one will come out a better person.

The question would be:

Please provide an adequate alternative for real criminals that really commit crimes that:
Ensures 100% guilt
Ensures 100% of the rights of those imprisoned

The only alternative I am aware of would be to not imprison anyone.

BTW, being difficult is not an excuse for abuse within the system. However, if you compared conditions now with conditions in the past, especially with the mentally unstable, there is a huge difference. It isn’t unusual for criminals to repeat committing crimes now because of the lack of fear of jail. They do get food / shelter / healthcare and sometimes a sense of security that they cannot find outside.

As for the perverted world. That world is doing what it can to change. Actually a bit of a twisted point of view of this point is that in order to be more humane to prostitutes and the sex industry from a legal stance the world must become literally more perverted. Calling the world perverted is what keeps these things occurring. Look at Vegas. They have legalized forms of prostitution and it is happily labeled Sin City. It isn't a mystery why it is this way. Solving it is the problem. Until then, the best option is to not do that. And that has been what the world has been asking for a very long time.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 80
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/29/2012 11:09:29 AM
Mr. Knight..

Identify or describe a culture where there is total liberty.
 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 81
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/29/2012 11:57:33 AM
I don't bite just because a fish hook may be dangled in the water ... as you know, there is NO 'perfect society' anywhere, much less 'total liberty' - however, that being said, if you'd like to see what 'total liberty' may look like (much as would the concept of 'democracy', carried to its logical end), I suggest you consider the current activities being undertaken by the 'Occupy Oakland' crowd, who bring back much of the 'magic' that was the 1968 Chicago Democratic Convention. I concede that we do need SOME regulation in society. We do NOT, however, need layers upon layers of 'laws' which are accretive and redundant for no reason other than that politicians, rather than enforcing those laws already written and in force, prefer to 'look active' and simply write MORE LAWS that accomplish nothing more than enforcement of the ORIGINAL law would have accomplished. I am for a REDUCTION of law and 'government', not for 'more of the same', because what we have is provably NOT working. Using the concept first expressed by Mies van der Rohe, "Less is more."
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 82
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/29/2012 12:05:58 PM
Then what is an ethical citizen to do?
 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 83
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/29/2012 12:48:49 PM
I believe the correct action is 'Grab their ankles' ... I suspect we'd be looked at askance if we considered 'The Romanov Solution' as applied by the Bolsheviki in 1917.
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 84
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/29/2012 3:14:05 PM
Kings_Knight you wrote:
I believe the correct action is 'Grab their ankles' ... I suspect we'd be looked at askance if we considered 'The Romanov Solution' as applied by the Bolsheviki in 1917.

Are you saying you are with the Bolsheviki? If not, please explain.
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