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 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 85
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values? Page 4 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
" ... Are you saying you are with the Bolsheviki? If not, please explain. ... "


You ARE kidding, aren't you? How could you seriously interpret that comment in that light? I am a NON-affiliated independent Conservative. I despise all 'parties'.

My statement is idle speculation, but it is also a historic fact that the Bolsheviki were NOT particularly kind to the Romanovs. People over time have always reserved unto themselves the right to overthrow despotic or tyrannical government - I mention it merely to illustrate that as ONE option. I even provided a hint I was playing Devil's Advocate with the 'we'd be looked at askance' inclusion. Jeez.

Now, about that 'grab the ankles' bit ...
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 86
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/29/2012 3:29:48 PM
Then what is an ethical citizen to do?
 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 87
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/29/2012 3:50:59 PM
Grab the ankles. Repeat as necessary.
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 88
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/29/2012 5:20:45 PM
In as far as the Romanovs. People were depending on a power that was way beyond their understanding and control. They were desperate. Other entities wanted to be in power. They did not care about doing what was right, or care if what they were to embark on was wrong. It was merely a changing of the guard. They would say what they thought people wanted to hear...then they would use those very same people to destroy themselves.

From birth, The Romanovs were expected to act and behave a certain way. It was their inheritance to sit on a throne in some capacity. However... the Russian Orthodox Church was the power...that powered the throne. This entity was robbing the masses...keeping them in the dark ages...and the Romanovs were expected to do as the church told them. Even if they wanted to do what was right, there were Noble relatives that would not want to give up the prestige and power that their titles bestowed upon them.

This is why I say that individuals in this world inherit their government, the same way a child inherits his or her family. It is far more complex then most individuals care to comprehand. For someone in the Romanov Family to denounce their position, it would be the same as if they were to denounce their own blood.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 89
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 8:09:12 AM
And yet Kohavah, people can change their governments.

The French people organized and engaged... and essentially purged their country of the tyranny of the aristocracy and anyone who supported them. It was a bloody time as revolutions tend to be.

The American colonies organized and overthrew the British.

We have Arab people who have organized and engaged to change their feudal governments... history is being made this very day.

The occupy movement is the result of someone organizing and may very well change the course of North American economics. The 1% may have 90% of the wealth... Pssst... the rest of us have 99% of the vote!

So back to the start of this thread. Do the laws represent the ethics and values of their respective society? If a people are complacent.. yes. Yet if the government (law makers) no longer serve the people, the people can change it.

Now I suppose they can grab their ankles... as Mr. Knight suggests.

But what can an intelligent and ethical citizen do?
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 90
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 8:23:54 AM
Well A-gent, I am not an intellegent or ethical "citizen." People like you remind me of someone who is working in a nursing home changing the diapers of the almost dead. They are exhausted because they know the body they are servicing has very little life left. It is actually an insult to the servant, and to the one being thus served.

Euthanasia and compassion is not allowed, because it would not be beneficial to the the numberous financiers who depend upon the proceeds that come from the house of horrors. The slave who is serving the sickly corpse, would not be enabled to continue being an exhausted slave. Sure change a government or two. Pick a pocket...change a dirty diaper. It is all the same filth...and you will be seen as a hero...or at least receive a nobel prize. Until someone decides to be a hero...and changes your guard.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 91
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 8:54:09 AM

Well A-gent, I am not an intellegent or ethical "citizen." People like you remind me of someone who is working in a nursing home changing the diapers of the almost dead. They are exhausted because they know the body they are servicing has very little life left. It is actually an insult to the servant, and to the one being thus served.

Euthanasia and compassion is not allowed, because it would not be beneficial to the the numberous financiers who depend upon the proceeds that come from the house of horrors. The slave who is serving the sickly corpse, would not be enabled to continue being an exhausted slave. Sure change a government or two. Pick a pocket...change a dirty diaper. It is all the same filth...and you will be seen as a hero...or at least receive a nobel prize. Until someone decides to be a hero...and changes your guard.


All of that is blaming things outside of the reality of life. We are not magicians, gods, or able to perform miracles. We have chosen that the ideal is to save life and not take it especially in the context of medical issues. It's a simple ethical dilemma that can't be dismissed as evil enslavement. Euthanasia requires an executioner in our culture. You can't just flip a switch of thousands of years of ethical thought and start offing the sick. The last one to try that on a grand scale wasn't exactly a modern hero.

If you ruled the world would you kill your sick? At what point would then be considered unviable? Who makes that decision? Do you have a committee? What if the person wants to live but was deemed unviable? Do you only kill those that wish to be dead? What about a coma?

Life in natural form is filthy, dirty, messy and unfair. There isn't a natural habitat that is clean. Every animal has waste. Trees die. Bacteria devour the dead. That is life. We do our best to keep nature out of society for a reason.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 92
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 9:46:44 AM
Well K... I doubt the reason we have people languishing in nursing homes throughout North America is due to profiteering. More so that our culture has a hard time accepting that life is ultimately a terminal diagnosis and our ethics says preserve life at all cost. Nor have we figured out how to prevent abuse should it become acceptable to euthanize someone.

Perhaps someone from the Netherlands, where such euthanasia is legal ... and perhaps thereby reflects the ethics and values of that country.... can speak to the issue.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 93
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 10:07:28 AM
Wow, I didn't know it was allowed there.



The law allows medical review board to suspend prosecution of doctors who performed euthanasia when each of the following conditions is fulfilled:


Looks like the bar is pretty high and pretty scary for the Dr. To have it as 'suspending prosecution' rather then just allowed is pretty interesting if that is the case.

Not very much written since the law though. I did find one more recent review not in favor of the outcome.

http://www.utm.edu/staff/jfieser/class/160/6-euthanasia.htm

While euthanasia in the Netherlands was originally presented as being for rare occurrences, it soon became frequent and applied to “categories of people whose assisted deaths would have once provoked outrage.” Smith notes how euthanasia practices have expanded to include patients who experience emotional suffering, yet have no physical suffering. A growing number of infants and children are also being euthanized. He argues that the guidelines themselves are routinely discarded since the Dutch government fails to prosecute physicians who violate them.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 94
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 10:30:21 AM
"Assisted death," is in fact a common enough practice in Canada.. .and I expect the US as well.

This is more so when a person is in the very end stages of a disease and literally on their death bed. Commonly they are being given morphine to minimize their suffering... when the person slips into a coma.... commonly there will be a second dose of morphine given with the intent to paralyze the respiratory muscles... And the person peacefully ... just stops breathing.

It does not change the outcome.... the person is actively dying... but does hasten it along.

I had heard of one case where a nurse was ordered to give the lethal dose without knowing the intent.... and had she known she would have refused... Yet I have not heard of any cases where this practice has been abused as in dispatching someone who had advanced Alzheimer's yet whose death was not yet imminent.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 95
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 10:51:01 AM
It is not lawfully practiced in the US. Dr. Kevorkian tried and went to jail many times but he has died now.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 96
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 12:35:12 PM
Kevorkian assisted in the suicides of at least 130 people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian).

The difference between what I described and Kevorkian is that his "clients," as far as I am aware, were not on their death bed. No doubt many were suffering physically/emotionally... but would have lived and been able to engage their world for some time if left alone.

I think that a qualitative difference.

I do not know the legalities of the sort of euthanasia that I described... a comatose and terminally ill person with hours/days to linger... whether it is legal, or more so "don't ask, don't tell." My guess is more the latter.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 97
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 12:40:00 PM
I think we can agree that it is a case where society’s morals and ethics play a very large role.

We do not know which way is proper so the safest option is to not allow it. Some experiments occur but it definitely stretches those boundaries.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 98
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 2:13:56 PM
"We do not know which way is proper so the safest option is to not allow it."

Perhaps to understand any law.. or custom ... one would do well to consider the morals, mores, and ethics of the time the law was brought into effect. I expect an evolutionary psychologist/anthropologist, or socio-biologist could add further intrigue.

Clearly there are bad laws.... In Canada the long gun registry was reportedly to curtail the illegal use of weapons. It seemed to gloss over that criminals weren't using registered weapons (mostly handguns smuggled in from the US). My understanding was the law was a way for the Liberal government at the time to appease the growing urban populations (who more so oppose hunting) and feminists (who equate rifles to masculinity).

I have a theory that marijuana was outlawed as a way to by extension outlaw hemp. Hemp being a fiber superior to cultivate, harvest, and make into fiber and garments... than cotton and the vested interests in controlling the textile trade.
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 99
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 2:40:15 PM
Moral suicide would revolutionize this planet. If individuals...even entire families had the right to leave this planet...it would have no choice but to...change. The real reason that individuals find this idea so abhorrent is because of the perpetual mind control that has been initiated upon the entire civilization. One does not need a doctor to help them out, or to get permission.

Each individual has the right to choose life, liberty and happiness in a place where they will be healthy, safe, prosperous and accepted. When that is not possible in this realm...they must seek out another place. The idea of doing unto another as you would have them do unto you fits this scenaro quite nicely.

It is my life to live or lay down where and when I see proper and fitting. It is also mine to take up again or disgard according to the dictates of my moral conscience. I am the creator of my life, and no one else has any obligation or right to unjustly or immorally interfere or to intervene.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 100
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 3:03:26 PM

The real reason that individuals find this idea so abhorrent is because of the perpetual mind control that has been initiated upon the entire civilization.


It is not mind control. It is empathy. We are well versed in murder. We strive to be good. We do not want to be killers. It is easy for you to say as an individual what you find proper. It is exceedingly difficult to apply that to an entire race.

We do not like having executioners. We have them now. To reduce that burden we invented ways to separate the executioner from the act. How do you hire this person? If they enjoy their job you do not want them to have that job. It's difficult and complicated and we are further along than ever before. The amount of countries that practice beheadings is getting smaller and smaller. That isn't because we embrace death.

We are not a small tribe with fixed beliefs of life and death. We are a complex world society that is still learning.
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 101
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 3:18:45 PM
Aries, I have seen and experienced the sadistic empathy that exists through out this very backward world. I am not an advocate of poverty, torture, prisons, punishment and humiliation. Moral suicide is kind and compassionate. It does not require a council, a governing body, a judge or a court. Only the intellect to comprehend that this world is much closer to hell then it is to heaven, simple supplies and an understanding of how to access freedom from a world that loves immorality, ill justice and unethical ideals, more than a wholesome life. It is moral, just and ethical to the very core.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 102
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 3:20:33 PM
It is just perspective.

Everything can be seen from multiple viewpoints. Even if one viewpoint is more right than another that does not make it the correct view point. Only seeing one viewpoint does not make it they only possible viewpoint. The lesson learned is entirely based on the individual’s perspective.

I look into a black hole and I see darkness. Someone else looks into that same black hole and they see infinity. I like infinity better so I adopt that viewpoint.
 Inicia
Joined: 12/21/2007
Msg: 103
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 5:10:18 PM
On our morals and ethics and assisted or non assisted suicide and empathy: We assist animals in suicide every day removing them from slow painful demises allowing them to die with their dignity intact we do not allow humans this. And we choose the death of animals to sacrifice for our own utilization to make the world a "better" place. Animals have as much choice in the matter as a comatose patient or a person as a civilian who dies in war.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 104
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 5:25:07 PM

And we choose the death of animals to sacrifice for our own utilization to make the world a "better" place. Animals have as much choice in the matter as a comatose patient or a person as a civilian who dies in war.


Totally understand... Now, picture that place where it occurs. Usually your county animal shelters. Would you propose we set up county Euthanasia centers? Dedicate a few rooms at the county morgue? You can associate it as being the same but it goes in bad directions. You have to use your empathy and extend it out to those people that must perform the duty. Then you have to make those people real life. How would you feel about prison guards doing it? There will be no discrimination in hiring practices.

Other arguments against it are for things like finding cures. If we accept that cancer is terminal and allow them to die where is the motivation to find the cure.

It is contradictory and completely unfair and imbalanced application of morality. Yes it is. It isn't pretty, neat and clean. From a large society point of view the embracing of death just isn't going to happen without a significant fight and the fight against it is just as valid as any point for it and in fact stronger. At least at this point in time. I'm not so sure I would be comfortable in a society that promoted/condoned suicide. It only takes a brief second to see the dark ways that can go.
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 105
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 5:42:29 PM
This world that you think is life...I consider to be the perpetual death march, from one generation unto another. Why do you believe that you or anyone else for that matter should force me or another individual to stay in a world that is a complete failure? One can not change this world anymore than one can move a large mountain.

The people in this atmosphere have an unalienable right to be free from the captivity that is this world. No one needs to get a governing body to agree or disagree. Simply allow individuals the liberty to choose their own destiny and the destiny of those whom they are responsible for.

Why should anyone be forced to stay here? In order that they may learn more "life" lessons? In order that their minds may be further manipulated? In order that they may get a disease that they have not yet experienced? You have no moral or logical reason to continue keeping the inhabitants of this world captive to empty promises and false hope. Let them decide to stay if that is what they truly want, and the right and ability to leave if that is their choice.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 106
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 5:57:40 PM
All three of your points are answered with the same answer. Because you are not alone.


Life is a perputal death march from one generation unto another. That mean every generation is born into life also. It is a perpetual journey into the future. You say that one can not move a large mountain. Well, many can. We have moved many.

No one needs a governing body to agree or disagree for their freedom alone. However in a group it is a requirement. We do allow individuals to choose thei own deistiny and the destiny. That doesn't grant the right to choose the destiny of those you are responsible for by default though. They get their own rights.

Why should anyone be forced to stay? Simply put... for those that care about them. There is a moral duty to care for your own right. It is not moral to harm those that care for you.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 107
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 7:36:24 PM
The biggest fault of euthinasia is that its patients are NEVER the ones you really want to be rid
 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 108
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/30/2012 9:20:59 PM

" ... The biggest fault of euthinasia is that its patients are NEVER the ones you really want to be rid ... "


A bit of repressed hostility issue here ... ? Seriously, tell us how you really feel.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 109
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 12:49:16 AM
"Each individual has the right to choose life, liberty and happiness in a place where they will be healthy, safe, prosperous and accepted." Msg 106

There really is no such thing as "Human Rights"
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