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 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 110
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values? Page 5 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
When an individual or a group are not emotionally, morally or ethically mature it is not wise for those people to have a gun, a car, an internet connection, a seat of authority over others or anything else that they could employ that would essentually cause them or others serious harm.

This world has technology that most of the inhabitants are not emotionally, morally, and ethically mature enough to have. A balanced power would recognize this mistake, and do whatever needed to remove these things from those individuals.

It would be irresponsible to continue to allow this planet to have this technology when the people have not been allowed the moral instruction, have not been properly educated and are not mature enough...call it evolution if you like... to know the justified purpose of all people, places and things.

Therefore because they do not bare with them the essential immaculate conception required to know what to do or not to do with what they have in their possession, they must have it all removed. This is truth...righteousness... judgement...justice...upright morality. This is the power and strength of supernal law.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 111
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 7:31:11 AM
Kohavah

I suppose changing diapers for some poor soul, who might be better off dead, can be degrading and humiliating experience for both (your msg 97).

And perhaps some day - some group - advocating for humane euthanasia may eventually sway public opinion enough for it to result in new law reflecting societies' evolving moral and ethical values (speaking to the theme of this thread).

And I do hope it would be based on ethical reasons, and not financial expediency.

Yet now and even then, changing diapers can be a way of promoting some level of compassion and dignity for some poor soul who is in the final stages of their life. Perhaps the last semblance of dignity they can still have... to be treated with kindness and respect despite the unpleasant situation.

And I thank God for the people who are able to provide that service with humanity.

>

Ever thought of joining some advocacy/conscience raising group such as Amnesty International?

It might give your frustration and anger a more constructive voice.

Be the change you want to see in the world.

>

Are you familiar with the poem, The Quitter, by Robert Service? http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/service_r_w/the_quitter.html
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 112
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History
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 7:59:14 AM
If the world is viewed through a pure moral lens the only conclusion is that it requires absolute control and all freedoms removed.

That’s why we don't view the world through only one lens.

If viewed purely on ethical terms we find that we will never know enough to make a final judgment call.

It isn't ethical to be all moral and it isn't moral to be all ethical.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 113
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 8:05:26 AM

Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?

Thus laws reflect the views of those that have the power, knowledge and money to create and shape them.




It isn't ethical to be all moral and it isn't moral to be all ethical.

...but it all can be very profitable if you are on the right side of the table.
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 114
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 9:04:20 AM
A-gent...pertaining to giving up and quiting....or joining Amnestry International. I liken it to a man who is dying of thirst and continues to squeeze stones thinking that if he only had enough faith in the stone, it would eventually quench his thirst. Of course this man like millions upon millions of others could not comprehend a simple law of nature. Stones have never produced water.

Why spend time on or pay for that which does not bring forth nourishment? Why should one continue to pay the price of the bad ideas and immoral investments of their unjust fore fathers? Do not feel as if you are alone in your ideals. There are many like you who will demean others for recognizing the truth and finding a better way for themselves then the way of a dried out and broken down rock. You will condemn them for being quiters. I will praise them for being morally intelligent and wise.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 115
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 9:15:29 AM
"Thus laws reflect the views of those that have the power, knowledge and money to create and shape them." Msg 120.

And how do those said people get the power to create and shape laws?

An interesting example is developing in the US... The Republicans will be portrayed as defenders of the affluent. Obama is positioning himself as the agent of the middle class.

The affluent may have more of the wealth... the middle class.... more of the vote.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 116
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 9:27:15 AM
Kohavah... Where, in my post, was there anything hinting of demeaning or condemning? Is that not something you have projected onto the communication?

Have a good day... or not.

Squeeze your stone if you like... silly thing to do, or use it to dig a trench and maybe find some water under the soil.... might be a desperate effort... but still an effort. The stuff that inspires epoch poetry.

Get up one more time or lay there and rot ...

Entirely up to you.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 117
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 9:32:17 AM
And how do those said people get the power to create and shape laws?

Nepotism.


"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce."

James A. Garfield, President of the United States
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 118
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 10:30:17 AM
In our immaturity as individuals we can be quite amusing or quite dangerous...depending on who it is we are in charge of. I recognize that I am in my infancy in my true education pertaining to all people, places and things.

Even though I work hard at not being a snob or assuming the position of an arrogant know it all, there are times when my internal immaturity, various confusion and emotional insecuity comes through, and someone ends up getting his or her feelings hurt.

Fortunately I do have the foresight to recognize that I should not be in any position where I could exert any power or force over another. In regard to justified self defense pertaining to that which is by moral and rightful inheritance mine ,that is a completely different situation all together. In this respect I am fully and completely centered and on target. This is what my personal and extended just society represent in relation to morality and ethics. We have never been the aggressor...but we will maintain,sustain and protect that and those who are of and for us...until everyone of our people are freed from this lunatic planet,
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 119
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 10:55:58 AM
".until everyone of our people are freed from this lunatic planet," Kohavah

Are you explaining something along the lines of the mother ship?

Because if you are referring something about humanity being removed from this lunatic planet.. .it ain't the planet that is lunatic.. and would likely be very happy to have us gone.

But then nobody would be around to make bestow beauty upon it.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 120
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 11:44:55 AM
"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." Aristotle...

Pssst...

..... WE are MILLIONS of registered VOTERS.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wos-dDxpJlQ

Not corporations
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 121
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History
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 12:32:21 PM

POWER TO THE PEOPLE
...
Not corporations


Corporations are people too :roll:

Don't forget... Civilizations are built and survive with economies. It is quite acceptable to have laws that promote the economy. In fact when laws are presented for consideration they are usually presented with three basic points. Pros/Cons/Economic Impacts

Getting all grumpy at industry’s for having influence in government is kind of pointless. Getting all grumpy at Governments for being corrupted by industries is a good idea.

What would you rather have... The Agricultural industry telling California that in the current environment it will take n number of workers and resources to meet current demands or would you rather have the government pass a law that tells agriculture how much demand it is required to meet.
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 122
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 2:38:54 PM
It is my opinion that laws do not really represent their societies moral and ethical values. They more than likely represent the morals and ethics of those who have the finances to buy thrones and enforcers of those thrones. The population of the USA is such that it would be quite difficult to know how all individuals really feel in relation to morality and ethics.

The medias have certain criteria they must follow in what and how they put forth information. When individuals are dependant upon the approval of pirates for economic advice, for scientific news pertaining to their health, their local, state national and world news, not to mention their very safety in every area of their lives, they know that they could put themselves or others in danger by attempting to stand against that which they know by tragic experience is very violent and dangerous.

When individuals are so grounded and held so tightly in swaddling bands to entangling networks of deception... whom the masses know are not working for their personal best interest... it is not fair to say that the laws represent their morality or their sense of justice. As far as voting is concerned I refuse to involve myself in such a hideous farce. This is not the moral law that I believe in and desire to adhere to.

This vile and corrupt system is the poisonous supper I was served in exchange for my true inheritance. I reject this filthy cup of toxic manure. No one in their right mind, who is free to choose right over wrong, would desire to choose the lesser of any evil to be their moral compass or to have a hideous pirate who calls itself a representative or lord...sit in their place in any authoritive capacity. I will pass this tainted system onto others who love it. Let them go down with their sinking vessels. I prefer a wholesome system, and a wholesome people. I will vote/choose nothing less.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 123
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 2:50:10 PM

I prefer a wholesome system, and a wholesome people.


Where? I am assuming this is a place not accessible by anyone but just those few that are better than everyone elese?
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 124
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 2:57:12 PM
When the various pirating systems you are forced to use fully collapse...without any hope of being resurrected...a wholesome way may be born....for all who desire it.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 125
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 2:58:31 PM
ok, so your waiting for the collapse. But it must fully collapse so there are no remnants left...
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 126
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 3:00:55 PM
Yes, fully and completely collapse with out any way or hope of survival. No life support for the systems in place...for they are not living beings.
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 127
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 3:03:10 PM
You can only save people by destroying the entire structure of that which is their burden. You never save the burden, only the people thus grounded by that burden.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 128
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 3:04:38 PM
And then what is the basis of the new law?
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 129
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 3:12:34 PM
Genuine truth, uprightness, campassionate judgement, which would bring about a more perfect sense of justice. This is the base or foundation. The roots are understanding and the desire to be friends one to another, without scoring.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 130
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 3:15:03 PM
So, something more along the line of how a good philosopical man would rule with compassion and wisdom and justice. The roots are in ethics and morality and reasoned wisdom.

Something like that?
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 131
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 3:15:04 PM
"Getting all grumpy at industry’s for having influence in government is kind of pointless. Getting all grumpy at Governments for being corrupted by industries is a good idea." Msg 128

Could not agree more. David Korten in his book, When Corporations Rule the World, describes very well how corporations came about with the intent they were to serve the public good. At their origin, the owners lived in the same communities as the workers, and there it was a mutually beneficial relationship. Now, corporations are world wide and their only moral imperative is to increase share holder value ... Share holders who no longer live in the same community or have any personal interest in the welfare of the worker.

Corporations and vested interests (World Bank) - non elected persons and entities - are now dictating to governments their economic policies and lobbying to divest more and more of the cost of doing business to the state/tax payer. And such is their duty...to enhance share holder value by decreasing the cost of doing business.. in any legal way they can... even if that means changing the laws by lobbying the law makers and manipulating public opinion.

"We do not live in the age of reason. It is the age of flummery and the devious approach. Reason's gone behind closed doors where decisions are made to emote the public in one direction or another." J. Wyndham, The Trouble With Lichen.

The government, as the representative of the electorate/citizens, is to establish the parameters/laws for doing business, and to hold corporations accountable for the good of the public.

Citizens who allow themselves to be manipulated and/or support or neglect to hold a negligent or corrupt government accountable to them, get what they deserve. A government that represents their values and ethics... or lack thereof.

Power to the people... not corporations.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 132
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 3:47:19 PM


A bit of repressed hostility issue here ... ? Seriously, tell us how you really feel.


no hostility.

Just a little dark humour.

LAUGH
 kohavah
Joined: 12/31/2011
Msg: 133
Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 4:09:16 PM
Aries, you said,
So, something more along the line of how a good philosopical man would rule with compassion and wisdom and justice. The roots are in ethics and morality and reasoned wisdom.

Something like that?

My answer to that is yes, except that one man can not be expected to do this alone. This must be an upright effort of all, not just one.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 134
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Laws - do they really represent their societies moral & ehtical values?
Posted: 1/31/2012 4:48:39 PM
My answer to that is yes, except that one man can not be expected to do this alone. This must be an upright effort of all, not just one.


I was hoping you would say that. I would like to introduce you to our old friend Socrates through his student Plato: http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.html

What I described came from a concept he called, "The Philosopher King." The Philosopher King is the highest form of leadership. In fact I believe quite a bit of the concept of Jesus follows along this line. There is one fatal flaw with the "Philosopher King." He will die. If he is lucky he may have been able to pass on his wisdom to his children so they can continue his rule but most likely not and the erosion of those values lead to all the problems we already know. I think the labeling of Jesus as a King is an effort to overcome that limitation through the whole resurrection thing and therefor the "Philosopher King" lives forever and maintains an authority higher then established government.

Anyway, back to the Republic... Our laws, our ethics, our philosophy has much of its roots here. The United States is a Republic. What you have claimed as the new order is really the same as the origins that the United States is already based on.
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