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 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 29
Men and self esteemPage 5 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)

When he's done reading "Heather has 2 mommies"


What blather--there's Billy has Two Daddies , as well.

I am not a man but I can say that men have self esteem issues. I saw a man from Chicago off and on for three years--he called it off twice and I called it off last time. When he would speak of being able to attract women, he would list his positive points: he was wealthy, in good health, and reasonably smart.

It always intrigued me that he ALWAYS listed wealthy first. I pointed this out to him and he finally told me that he didn't see himself as handsome (he wasn't) and did see himself as rather boring. He went on to say that whenever a woman was interested in him, he wondered why.

I could tell him--he was smart and he was witty.

Other women in his life seemed to care more about his money than his well-being. When we got back together the second time, my friends and family were worried about me getting hurt again; two of his female friends told him to watch out for me because I was a golddigger.

So, they fed his low self esteem issues.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 30
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Men and self esteem
Posted: 11/20/2009 8:02:42 PM
Forgive me if I "wax philosophical", but self esteem is merely the worth places on oneself, isn't it? Everyone has to deal with self esteem issues. The commercial mentioned points to the fact that for the female gender, their view of self is based on outward appearance. I guess one could say that it is a bit different for men, and that males base their self worth on things like ability to provide and "strength". Assuming that is true, at least to some extent. two thingss become evident: we haven't really changed all that much (evidenced plenty on these forums!), and, interesting that we call is SELF esteem when the basios of our assessment of us seems to be based on others' vies of us. Women base their appearance on comparisons to images projected by the media, rather than from within, or even from those whom they seek to attract. Men base their self worth on how worthy they are to the women they seek out.
Perhaps that's why we all ended up HERE.
 Grimmis1027
Joined: 11/4/2009
Msg: 31
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Men and self esteem
Posted: 11/20/2009 9:25:19 PM

But what about the guys? Aren't there self esteem problems in men? Just like in a way, imo, the commercial is saying that not every little girl is going to grow up to be like the images on the TV screen but she should still consider herself beautiful. So in stating that, not every little boy is going to grow up with 6 pack abs and look like the main character in Twilight.


Take a walk in a shopping mall sometime, and take notice of people and how well their dressed, most women seem to be dressed higher than average, but the men are a different story all together...

Some of them were wearing dirty old baseball caps, or shirts sloppy and not tucked in, old jeans and T's, half laced sneakers and so on..., in a word, some of them were downright slobs !.

It's no wonder some of us guys need adult supervision ! :-)
 Tarnished_Knight
Joined: 3/5/2009
Msg: 32
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Men and self esteem
Posted: 11/20/2009 10:03:05 PM
I find these issues of self esteem silly. Growing up I don't have any memories about adults worried about our self esteem - and if there were concerns we took care of it by going out and doing.

And perhaps that is the difference. Back in the day I had very little free time to wonder if I "measured up," if I was as good as the others. I don't think I ever once pondered my navel while worrying about my self esteem. I was not Mr. Popular, I was (actually still am) socially awkward, never had a six pack (while now-a-days I fight the dreaded pony keg), wasn't the brightest, not much of a jock, etc; but I DID. I worked, I contributed, I demonstrated my worth to myself and those around me through my performance. I mattered.

And perhaps that's the problem today. We don't have kids out there doing, like we did back then. There are some. my son is one, and in him am I pleased. And his peers, those he hangs with, also contribute. And I don't hear them give voice to "woe is me" tales. These kids know they got what it takes. Because they are out there making a difference. They're doing, their self worth (self esteem ) comes not from some external source, but from their own knowledge of their own accomplishments.

They don't need no stinkin' commercial telling them how they are special. External praises with no inner voice does nothing but create imbeciles who expect to be lauded for wiping their asses properly. If we want to raise a generation of competent adults we need to allow our kids to succeed or fail on their own merits, and not sit around waiting to be fawned over.

TK
{there are few sights as glorious as seeing a child smile from the inner knowledge that they accomplished something, themselves}
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 33
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Men and self esteem
Posted: 11/21/2009 4:47:20 AM
When i was a younger man my goal was to get laid as often as i could which meant had to tell the owners of what i was after anything they wanted to hear and be anything they wanted me to be....then one day i realized that being yourself was the most important thing and that which brought the most peace and happiness,and could actually make you more attractive to other people.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 34
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Men and self esteem
Posted: 11/21/2009 7:00:45 AM
Self esteem is a relatively new concept; perhaps in the last 50 years or so ago.

If you look at the pressures men face I think it would be fairly obvious to most that there are conflicting messages in how one should 'measure up' to be a 'real man'.

Men have a significantly higher rates of suicide than women do; I'd say they are facing some stress. One of the biggest causes of stress is the gap between what you (and others) expect of yourself and the reality - and the hopelessness of seeing no viable way out of it.

Sprinkle on top of this society's messages about men, which are in a high proportion, negative, critical and contemptuous. AND add to that, the way women speak of men, again very high in criticism and contempt. Mix in that, society is fairly accepting of women's negative speak regarding men. What's created is a cesspool where it is hard to find acceptance of who you are as a human being.

Now, also consider that there is a massive "don't talk" rule. If a man doesn't like what he sees, he is told to shuddupabout it. He is a whiner or bitter.

Contempt is a killer.
 swellaswell
Joined: 10/21/2009
Msg: 35
Men and self esteem
Posted: 11/21/2009 7:13:08 AM
I like your post, actually,,it's thought provoking.

Self esteem is a big issue for men and women. The difference is,,,,,women talk about such things, and it makes a good marketing ploy to sell products.
It's the discussion that is out in the open.

I wonder how many male products would be sold with the same theme. Axe commercials show an ordinary guy spraying on some stuff and getting HOT women. So hot is all that counts to guys? Or do you not count as a guy if you can't get hot. Or are hot women the only ones that count? Then what ,,the number?

And the message is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the media lies to us,,,DUH. Especially when they have something to sell. There are ppl who make a very good living picking at what bothers us about ourselves and convincing us we are unacceptable unless we conform to that.

Genetics are an accident,,,WHO you are is a choice.

There will always be someone prettier, smarter, richer, more cool than you. To quote the Simpsons " I was with IT,,then they changed what IT was."

So just be yourself,,,be happy with who you are.

BTW,,,if you want several meaningless, physical only relationships with hot women. You better be ready to be judged on that level.
Like attracts like.
Angenlina Jolie might fall down with her legs open for Brad Pitt,,but I don't think she'd do that for Jack Black.
It's just how it is.
 forums1
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 40
Men and self esteem
Posted: 3/3/2010 6:37:14 AM

Men don't matter. They can die sooner, suffer more on-the-job deaths, more violent crime, and more suicide, but it doesn't hardly register on the societal radar screen - unless maybe it affects some woman and/or her kids.


Put down the cross, its cold here in New England (and there's snow on the ground) and we need the wood to heat the house.
 christ on a crutch
Joined: 2/1/2009
Msg: 42
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Men and self esteem
Posted: 3/3/2010 2:17:17 PM

How many men do you think get cosmetic surgery, compared to the number of women?

yes, they're not having elective cosmetic surgery. they're having mandatory orthopedic surgery.

because the pressure in childhood and adolescence for greatness was not about how these boy LOOKED, it was about how they DID. their achievements. and who were their role models for that? ladainian tomlinson and kobe bryant instead of megan fox and angelina jolie.

so many kids dive into sports culture, where their bodies take a brutal battering. they are pressured to play with pain, thus exacerbating injuries that lead to knee, back and ankle surgery later in life. they grind down their shoulder cartilage in the weight rooms. they take steroids that destroy their hearts, livers and testicles.

the top jocks score the top hotties. the top hotties score the top jocks. the rewards at the professional top for both types are staggering. is it any wonder people want these attributes so badly?
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 43
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Posted: 3/3/2010 2:26:29 PM
Verityone,good post..despite all the whinning women choose to do what they do with the assets they have...the one's with little or no assets do all of the complaining because they resent the attention attractive women get...no Dove commercial will ever change that either.
 Wishes Granted
Joined: 3/6/2008
Msg: 45
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Men and self esteem
Posted: 3/3/2010 4:40:19 PM

You forgot to mention the very obvious fact that the men on these shows are the STARS. The men are funny, the women are filler. The men are interesting, the women are incidental. Wishes, are you suggesting that women should get starring roles just for being women?
lol.. no, not suggesting that in the least. What I'd like to see is the opposite to what's currently portrayed.. How about a handsome male star and a woman of a few extra pounds or, less then society dictated size zero.

A handsome and athletic Fred and a size 10 (or bigger) Wilma
A handsome and athletic Homer Simpson and a wide-azzed Marge
A handsome and athletic Family Guy and a Three-baby left over bump on Lois..

Whenever the woman is the 'star' and the man is just "filler" her spouse/partner is NEVER overweight or a bumbling idiot. At least I can't remember where that was the case.

There should be equal opportunity for the gals to be just as acceptable and un-athletic as the men and still be able to get and keep a hotty male..

Are the producers/creators of these sits. claiming that men would never accept any different then what they are now portraying to all the young girls and women of the world? Men can let themselves go and still keep a woman.. but women couldn't/shouldn't possibly let themselves go and still keep her man???
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 46
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Men and self esteem
Posted: 3/3/2010 5:06:04 PM
A woman can let her man go and keep his money so call it even
 FastReb
Joined: 1/3/2009
Msg: 47
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Men and self esteem
Posted: 3/3/2010 8:19:21 PM

But what about the guys? Aren't there self esteem problems in men?


OP, there's an old saying I remember. It goes like this.

"A poor, handsome man is a handsome man while a rich, ugly man is a rich man."

Do men struggle with self-esteem issues? Sure they do. I just don't remember a corresponding saying, like the above one, where women are concerned. I guess another way to say it is that society seems to be more willing to overlook a man's physical flaws if he has other redeeming qualities, while being less willing to do so for a woman.
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 48
Men and self esteem
Posted: 3/3/2010 8:30:46 PM
Girls are in our society are the most privileged demographic in the history of the species.

How so? And please *exclude* hotties. I personally see that being an ugly woman is the worst role in US society. Ugly men don't have it so good, but if they are savvy they can be successful. VERY few ugly women are powerful, or even famous. It's ridiculous when Minny Driver is considered "the ugly one" in a movie. Then, if you're TOO good-looking, society is against you THEN, too. You're automatically stupid, and not funny, and if you succeed it's only because you're a btch--or slept your way to the top.
==============
I do think men suffer severe self-esteem issues, if they are so inclined, just like women. But for different reasons. Ask any guy who is BAD at sports, for instance. Or any guy who was super-skinny, or in ANY way weak--how'd THEY enjoy those high school years? I think men are much more culturally constrained than are women. Hell, most guys can't even wear PINK for fear of insults from other men. Men are more likely to ignore problems, mental and/or physical, and all that sublimating makes them sicker. The super-blustery guys, the ones who are always slapping other guys on the back, being all loud and pretending to be the life of the party, the ones who are always proclaiming how much they got, how great their lives are? They're the insecure ones; the ones who, late at night when they're all alone and everything's quiet and they're forced to listen to their thoughts--they're the ones who kill themselves, or cry in secret, or beat the crap out of the pillow, or sit screaming out in the car out of frustration.

I think men NEED therapy a lot more than do women, specifically because they are not "allowed" to REALLY talk it out with friends, to feel upset and frustrated and they most certainly won't allow themselves to cry when they feel these ways in public.
And, so, they lash out at women and tell THEM how "weak" THEY are for expressing their humanity, how irrational!
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 49
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Men and self esteem
Posted: 3/3/2010 8:39:13 PM
I disagree ray, unless of course, his dreams are lacking!


A woman can let her man go and keep his money so call it even


Please don't spew this drivel as if it were fact! This is not often the case these days, and for those for whom it is, it not unlikely that the money is what was thrown aroundas a means to attract that particular (type of) woman anyway. You reap what you sow!

Self esteem issues are specific to individuals, not genders. We all have them and the extent to which they impact your life as it relates to the opposite sex is on the person, not the sex organs.
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 50
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Posted: 3/3/2010 9:22:22 PM
I disagree, very few women with power and money (outside the movie/TV industry) are good looking. Some are butt ugly, as are many rich men. And outside movies/TV/Models, most rich men are married to average or less looking women, and to women many of them have been married to for years. You just don't see them plastered all over the media like you do with celebrities. Sure there are some trophy wives but mostly not, most rich men aren't looking for ways to lose their money, most are not homely Donald Trumps with hooker-type wives.

I don't think the media is the biggest threat to young girls, it's their peers who eat them alive. It's all those girls who use manipulation and pure meanness who make most average or less girls feel badly about themselves. What's sad is you can't seem to help them through it, they really believe that these young bytches are the norm and they can't measure up, then you get out of college and realize that these girls usually aren't all that, sometimes they are nothing at all but hot air and it's the average people who usually do well in life....always exclusions of course.
 Fizics
Joined: 12/13/2009
Msg: 51
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Men and self esteem
Posted: 3/3/2010 10:02:41 PM

Nowhere near the same or as much as women have.A man can be as ugly as a toad and 400 pounds and still get the woman of his dreams just by making more money.There is nothing that an ugly older woman can do(short of extensive plastic surgery) to entice the man of her dreams to be with her and stay with her.


I can't tell if this is an outright troll or you are just incredibly ignorant, are you saying that male escorts don't exist or that women that are financially well off don't use that to retain a "man of her dreams to be with her and stay with her"?

As was stated before "female" self-esteem is hardly in short supply these days, women have made incredible strides and have achieved virtual parity with their male counterparts, but no, that isn't enough, like everything we do in America we have to take an idea and run with it to ridiculous, insipid lengths, well past any reasonable outcome.

It is still (and for some time to come) fashionable to hold on to the "Old Boy's He-Man Woman Haters Klub" holding women down and outright discriminating against them but it is becoming harder and harder to base these assumptions in reality.

Speaking of reality, boys are force-fed the dichotomies that were listed extensively in this thread at length.
"Be macho but be sensitive too"
"Be highly successful and driven at work but also be an attentive father and always available"
et cetera, and so forth.

So, we are going to carry on for some time in society, much like this forum, screeching about wrongs done to our specific gender and outlining specific steps the opposite gender must take that no one will listen to.
 Fizics
Joined: 12/13/2009
Msg: 52
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Posted: 3/3/2010 10:39:03 PM

I am not screeching. Merely pointing out facts sir.


What "facts"? You mean your sweeping generalizations or your case-specific anecdotes? Neither of which looks like "facts" to me...

"There are only a very few male escorts people, I know this from my extensive experience in nothing and only very few men would date a woman for her money because as we all know, men are vapid creatures only concerned with holding womyn down or mentally and physically raping away their rightfull godess-given rights to have everything."

"Oh and we are still oppressed too."

Ever watch the "Women" channels? The movies? I have seen a few and every male in it is either a precious child, a rapist, or a fat, old befuddled male who either doesn't listen to the woman's ovious need for help or is somehow complicit in her persecution. Any positive male role models are strictly sidelined as being too nice (and therefore ineffectual) or irrelevant. I mean women complain about unfair stereotyping in media designed for men? Does that mean I can harp on about the "Oxygen" channel and it's constant degradation of the makle gender?
 Fizics
Joined: 12/13/2009
Msg: 53
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Posted: 3/3/2010 10:58:45 PM
How do you know this? How do you know there are "very few" male escorts that service women and that they are there to service "gay men"?

See, I actually watched these movies so I could have some basis for an argument that was at least based on facts and not, you know, completely pulled out of my ass. So it's not really causing me "explosive anger". I believe it was relative to what this thread was about....

But what about this?

"Nowhere near the same or as much as women have.A man can be as ugly as a toad and 400 pounds and still get the woman of his dreams just by making more money.There is nothing that an ugly older woman can do(short of extensive plastic surgery) to entice the man of her dreams to be with her and stay with her."

Is this one of your "facts"?
 Fizics
Joined: 12/13/2009
Msg: 54
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Posted: 3/4/2010 12:50:16 AM
Haha you accuse me of generalities yet leave out the fact that I also included two more categories (ineffectual and irrelevant) as well as continue to make sweeping generalizations? Prostitution services cater to men and their clients are men NOT women? Do you have one shred of proof to back up these claims or is it that "you just know..."?

Like I said (you should go back and read my post again) I watched these movies to form a basis for an argument, not something I do out of habit, and I don't know where you got "pedophile" from, I never said that, maybe some projection, hmm? Got some anger issues with men I see, maybe you need to do a little work on your issues.

The "pedophilia" comment you made is interesting as well though and I believe it also relates to the OP and the subject of Men and self-esteem. Somewhere over the past decade or so, there was a media driven hysteria that somehow morphed into a generalization of men being pedophiles, often with no basis in fact at all. This has also been a detriment to men's self-esteem as there often seemed to be an underlying mentality that "all men at heart are pedophiles" which may have replaced the oh so popular credo "all men are rapists" trumpeted by the womyn in the 70's and 80's. This is not a generalization, or some kind of personal paranoia, anyone who hasn't seen a shift in mainstream media to this position as part of an overall fear campaign has their head in the sand. Terrorists, bankers and pedophiles are the current boogeymen and are terms freely thrown around as labels on men these days, and deservedly or not they are causing damage to boys growing up.
 christ on a crutch
Joined: 2/1/2009
Msg: 56
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Posted: 3/4/2010 1:46:28 AM

Because it's the truth. Women are different from men and don't usually frequent prostitutes therefore there is little to no demand for male prostitutes who service female clients. Women, even ugly ones, can find a man somewhere to have sex with. Why would we pay for it when we can get it of free?

a few years ago, that paragon of actualized manhood, charlie sheen, was busted for soliciting prostitution. now why, you might ask, would a good looking movie and tv star need to spend money on pvssy when he could probably walk into any bar in l.a. and walk out with a woman in 10 minutes or less?

the reason is, he doesn't have to have a conversation with a prostitute. he doesn't have to worry about meeting her needs. he tells her exactly what he wants, and she does exactly that. he gets his nut, pays her fee, and doesn't have to worry about her being clingy, or wanting to spend the night, or pestering him for his number, or hanging around outside his house for the next week or two.

plenty of women just wanna fvck. just for tonight. with a good looking guy who is extremely motivated to make her happy (customer satisfaction leads to repeat business), will touch her exactly how and where she wants, will not argue over putting on a condom, will get out and stay out and never come around again, if that's what she wants.

that's a reason women with money hire men for sex.
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 58
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Posted: 3/4/2010 5:52:15 PM
Whenwillthiswork,so what you want is a world where women are not judged by male standards...cool....can i have a world where men are not judged by women's standards ?


Ray of Ray,most men would want more money than a woman would be willing to pay to have sex with a woman they have no attraction for....woman don't seem to have that issue,most beastiality films involve women having sex with Dogs,Horses ect...seems alot of you are not that picky....ever wonder why the female equivilent of Ron Jeremy doesn't exist in the porn business....then would have to pay the men too much.
 christ on a crutch
Joined: 2/1/2009
Msg: 60
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Posted: 3/4/2010 6:04:50 PM
It's much easier to pay for it from a professional then spend that ten minutes and have that pickup from the bar turn out to be a crazy stalker chick who "accidentally" gets pregnant.

this is almost precisely what i wrote. i'm glad we can agree that paying a professional for sex makes many potential complications go away. the elusive point is this option also has appeal for some women.

Why would women buy the whole pig when all you want is a little sausage?

marriage was never part of this discussion, nor personal relationship of any kind. it's a business transaction involving renting the body of someone who understands you don't want to relate to them as any more than that.

relatively few women are in this position. i understand it's a lot to wrap the brain around.
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 61
Men and self esteem
Posted: 3/4/2010 7:10:38 PM
But the reason I'm bring this up is how some people tell men to grow up this isn't high school when they talk about how a lawyer or doctor can get all the hot girls. But it's never (in my personal experiences) brought up to women to grow up when they talk about how the hot girls get the good guys. So men are told again to suck it up.

I'm confused by this. I, for instance, do NOT think hot chicks get the smart guys. I think hot chicks without substance get the Hollywood producer types (or, in real lifem, become the second wife of a guy who owns the car lot in your home town) who are all about appearances (but are less that attractive themselves). Hardly lawyers. However, I DO know one good-looking lawyer who married an intelligent and good-looking newscaster here. And my dad married a hottie back in the day--but she has brains (ps--my dad was a lawyer, my sister s a lawyer: I know a LOT of lawyers; all my cousins are doctors: I know more than a few doctors and nurses). I really don't think an intelligent man can have a dumb wife/ltr, but I am sure there are exceptions. I also don't agree that you are told to suck it up or grow up because doctors get quality spouses, that's the part I was confused about.


ever wonder why the female equivilent of Ron Jeremy doesn't exist in the porn business...
Jenna what's her name (I know you know it). She gets more than any guy today, or I guess did in her heyday. I think--but do not know--that the highest paid porn stars nowadays are women (not to say ALL women are paid more; just that the "stars" are paid more than the "studs").

But I do agree that media images of men suck, for the most part. The "funny but stupid guy who's funny because he's so stupid" stereotype is out there as nauseum, as already mentioned. On the commercials for these insipid shows, the men are bumbling around the kitchen or the living room and the woman comes in, raises a knowing eyebrow, and fixes his mess because the poor guy just can't figure out how to make the latte right. But, gosh and golly, you men sure do like your trucks, don't you? Which is weird, cuz trucks don't get the hot chicks, I understand that only Axe does. But watch out if you're going bald, cuz your life will really be bad. Unless you get the job done.

A good site:
http://www.medialit.org/reading_room/article438.html

BUT--is a man or a woman defined by the media, REALLY? I am so far removed from those people on TV that I am not quite sure it affects me all that much. I think SOME people are more affected by media portrayals than others. I would say my self-esteem was more harmed by my mom and my sisters than by the media.
============
PS-- I TOTALLY agree that the women on these shows are dufuses as well. Most "comedies" have NO attractive (not in a looks way) people on them at all. Except the Office, Jim is cute.
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 63
Men and self esteem
Posted: 3/4/2010 8:56:51 PM

So yes there are more women prostitutes than men, that are arrested, but I can bet a lot of people didn't think the number was that high for men.

You would have if you'd ever seen Cops--LOTS of male prostitutes on the show (except they're dressed as women). For all those closeted guys out there, who can't bring themselves to actually admit to being gay, so they go for men who they can say "Hey, she looked like a woman!"

But guess what? It's on topic--men are too culturally constrained to even be GAY, even if they are. Looking for Mr Goodbar, anyone?
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