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 AUTHOR
 ForRumOnly
Joined: 3/16/2009
Msg: 87
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marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?Page 3 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)

last long enough to be called "successful" (ie: till someone dies).


Someone has to die for it to be a success? EEK !! And no doubt it's illegal to hasten success ....
 morta1ez
Joined: 9/3/2009
Msg: 89
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marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/4/2009 11:51:32 AM
problem is too many people are selfish they have shallow expectations of future partners.
 flowerforce
Joined: 9/6/2006
Msg: 90
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/4/2009 11:54:35 AM
I think people getting married seldom think of the commitment it takes to stay married. Happily ever after is a myth. Good relationships take a lot of self awareness, good communication skills, friendship, patience, forgiveness, visioning, romance and
good will. Commitment is a day by day thing. One day at a time like it is in AA. Each partner has to focus on being the kind of spouse their partner is happy being with. I believe few people enter into marriage with the skills they need to make a good marriage. Perhaps there should be a school requiring people to learn about themselves and each other in relationship. That both parties attend for six months prior to getting married. I do not think the institution of marriage should be blamed for people ending a marriage. Each person in the marriage needs to be responsible for themselves in the relationship. It is not marriage that fails it is the people in the marriage that fail to work at creating a good marriage.
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 92
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/4/2009 12:14:20 PM
You know, reading the title of this thread and thinking on Tiger, and all the rest discussed on these forums, I can see why marriage is on the way out!!

Now while I understand, I'm gonna hear about what women want, feelings, commitment, kids, the journey together and all the rest. The real and honest truth is marriage has ceased to be a relationship and become a business!

It is a business before you even ask her!! First you buy an engagement ring ( couple of thou here, at least). Then you get to plan a party(reception doncha know) this can be fantastic or simple, anywhere from a $1,000 to several $100,000.!! Now none of this includes the 'dress', his tux, some other incidentals limos, gifts, license, church donation(yeah right, like you have a choie), honeymoon(expensive vacation from all the work for the wedding), photographer(here both stills and movies now, something you can relive, after all those fights, arguments and other BS), and the bevy of other things I didn't cover!

Next it's on to furnishings, living room, dining room, kitchen, and bedroom. Most of which either of you had, but now is not good enough. Then comes the kids, he11, we could do 3 pages on that, we all know it.

Finally comes that happy day in your life in 50% of marriage, divorce. Ten or fifteen years after your wedding, which by now I hope you have paid off along with the new furniture, when in 70% of the cases, SHE tells you, surprise, we're getting a divorce. Now she gets her lawyer from the firm of getim &how and you get yours from the firm of used & abused and you go to court. Oh wait, I forgot the good parts, depositions, separation agreements, retainers(designed to really see how muh that blood sucking lawyer can really spend given the chance), conference calls on visitation, asset dispersal, interim support. Yeah joe bloodsucker, esq., gets to fill his car, twice a week, when he bills you at $40 every 8 minutes your on the phone with him/her. Yeah, ain't love grand.

Now briefly back to Tiger, why is she entitled to whatever amount of millions she gets? Lifestyle she became accustomed to? Would she have that without HIS ability? Oh she gets it because she made a great home! Yeah I'm sure she cleaned every inch of it, cooked his meals and cared for the kids. No maids, no cook, no nanny, yeah dream on!
But because he had a talent, because people are stupid enough to think if I buy a Buick, or play with Ping clubs, or wear a Nike shirt and shoes, I'm gonna be a tiger!! LOL Though still when everything is said and done, she DID NOTHING to put one of those greenbacks in his jeans. But gets to hit divorce lotto now.

Now before you tear me one, I understand he's in the wrong here for cheating. Only a fool though would believe, that an indescretion, is worth 7 or 8 digits in dollars!

Ok ok rant over, but you get my point.
 FixItMyself
Joined: 10/26/2009
Msg: 95
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/4/2009 2:56:43 PM

I keep hearing that women initiate 70% of divorces, as if that proves anything at all. Men also commit adultery more, by a margin of about 15% if I recall correctly.

Nope. Among married couples, adultery is committed equally by both genders.


I've heard that its estimated that men and women are equally likely to engage in spousal abuse, but that men are much less likely to report it or to leave a relationship because of it. Maybe the reason women file for divorce more often is because they are less willing to stay in crappy marriages than men are?

Just because a woman divorces a man doesn't mean the man wasn't a good husband.

The majority of divorces have nothing to do adultery or abuse at all. Usually the documented reason for the divorce is the woman feeling emotionally unfulfilled.

Also, when it comes to picking a partner women are much more picky than men are. That in itself I think is a good thing, but the problem is a great many of them keep being picky after they get married.
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 96
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/4/2009 3:11:28 PM
"Maybe we're just going back to our roots"

Oh yes, try selling that on POF. 'excuse me, your good looking I'm gonna offer your dad 2 pigs and a goat for you, now get in that kitchen and when your done wash the floor'. Yeah we're headin right back there!lol

"same as woman such as Elin are capitalizing on their physical attributes"

Oh, kind of like a prostitute, I didn't understand that part before!

"Blah blah blah why can't she as well?"

Oh I didn't know, she does commercials as well, being the wife of a successful athlete demonstrating, her wifely skills. WOW, I bet that makes his putter stand up!

"they are less willing to stay in crappy marriage than men"

Of course, they get a gauranteed pay day, why stay? Onward and upward. Interesting though, a great number of them stayed until the kids are in college. Now it's 'their' time, time to kick back and enjoy the good life. He11, he paid for the family life for all those years, now I'm gonna get mine, don't need him to foot the bill any more.

"So many of the men who post here lack any sense of objectivity and perspective"

Well the problem is just that, ones view, experiences and perspective. Now while I know, or at least, have met some women, who either got screwed or were amicable about there divorce. Though I must explain, I worked in an enviroment of 1,000 guys, who made a way above average income. Of those I saw get divorced (somewhere over 65% of those men DID get divorced) in 9 cases out of 10, they got clobbered. Not only did they get hit with alimony, loss of house, they also got to pay 70% or all of her lawyers fees!! They rarely got custody(2% or less), visitation was a debate many times. Just like you, I have my perspective.

Maybe your right, it has poisoned my attitude towards marriage, my experience. Maybe reading these forums does color how you look at some women. Even given my experience, let's say 30% of those guys were bastords and deserved what they got, for cheating, being cheap, not being emotionally available enough, whatever reason you choose. That still belies the fact that 90% of them got hammered, that what seemed to me was a reasonable woman, turned into a revenge seeking or vengeful shrew, for no other reason that I could see, other than she was 'gonna get hers'. Do women get screwed, yeah again, I know they do. There has to be an element of truth, if SO many men say it. After all, on here, women say ALL men are just here for sex, so it must be true right?
 x_file_
Joined: 9/30/2009
Msg: 101
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/4/2009 4:53:07 PM

does this mean that marriage ( by this i mean forever) is on the way out.


I don't know about women, but I know many men who will not get married, and that's enough to end marriage as we know it. Good riddance, I say!

The biggest problem with marriage at moment is the potential for financial exploitation. This is the reason many men no longer want to marry.

One way to restore the integrity of marriage will be to remove all incentive for exploitation or personal gain. Here is one way to do that:

When two people get divorced, any shared entitlements go to the state/government.

For example, if John and Lisa are getting a divorce, and their house belongs to both of them, the house becomes a properly of the government. If John and Lisa have kids, upon divorce the kids become government "properly" and will be placed with anonymous foster parents and both biological parents must pay child support to the government.

Then lets see how many people will get married and get divorced. I'm betting we will have the lowest divorce rate in the recorded history of Earth.



Divorce is more prevalent now because people have the option to get out of marriages that don't work, unlike years ago where it was a terrible thing to get a divorce and society forced you to stick it out even with addictions, abuse, and infidelity.


That's just one aspect, one reason.

Getting out of bad marriages is one thing, ending a marriage for a financial gain is another. The second occurs far more than people (women in particular) are willing to admit.



Most people choose just to live together without marriage. Lawyers are main reason why marriage has failed.


The lawyers are just the tool. They represent the wishes of the client.

Women killed marriage. No one particular woman can be blamed. Nor can all women be blamed. But there shall be no confusion as to which sex killed marriage.



The whole 5 and ten year contract thing is a terrible idea.
Imagine the pressure to re-enlist!


What pressure?

Customers return to companies even thought they are not obligated to do so - they feel no pressure to do so. Customers return to companies because they want to. If the customer service is good, the price is good, and the quality is good, the customer will return - guaranteed! Extend the analogy to marriage.



It is the two people involved in a partnership who did not understand or care what those vows meant.


Really? It can't be just one person who didn't understand the vows, oh master of logic?



Two men/women get together to start up a business regarding a product. They form a partnership with all sorts of "vows" and "agreements"...and SIGN on the dotted line.


Only in your world darlin'! Or perhaps just in the world of delusional minds.

There are two basic ways to start a business with another person:

1) Partnership
2) Corporation

The signing that takes place in the birth of a corporation or a partnership is for government purposes - namely to make it apparent who are the owners of the corporation/partnership. Exactly the same with marriage! When a person signs the marriage certificate, they do it for government purposes AND NOT as an agreement to uphold any spoken vows! You do not signs the vows, you sign the government issued marriage certificate.

When you sign a prenup, that's when you sign written "vows" and "agreements".



When they both have no respect/care for each other and finally do things to make the business fall apart..IT IS THEM AT FAULT.


Again, only in your world!

When two corporations do business, they almost always sign SLAs. Such agreements along with conditions for contract termination allow a judge to assign blame just to ONE corporation.

When two people get married, they do NOT sign an SLA agreement. They do not even sign their vows... they sign a government issued marriage certificate - perhaps you should have paid more attention when you got married. Fault in corporations is determined by using the contract. Fault in a marriage is always in the man - for he always (almost always) loses half of his stuff.

Marriage is the only contract that has no expiration date, no SLAs, no written agreements of any type, but yet has more serious consequences than real business contracts. When a man gets divorced, he automatically loses half of his assets - most of the time. When a corporation fails to live up to a contract it pays "damages" to the other corporation which rarely ends being half of its assets.

I've compared marriage to a contract before, and I must say I've done a great injustice to contracts, for marriage is nothing like a contract but infinitely much worse - signing the marriage certificate is equivalent to signing a blank check, and one's death sentence, not a business contract.



If you read the actual vows and take the time to contemplate them, you will see the beauty of them. The total selfless giving and receiving. Love. True committment.


Before you can make a commitment to another person, you have to make a true commitment to yourself - for example, "I commit to do my commitments." The first is what is called "true commitment", the second is just an instance of "commitment", a shadow of the real thing. Hence "true commitment" has little to do with other people. You might want to contemplate those vows a big longer, oh master of introspection.



In my world, my heart and soul doesn't need to be up for negotiaton like a business contract.


Agreed! It's your world! Does it have unicorns?



The point is that business contracts and dynamics change just as the dynmaics in marriages change.


Contracts change, and people in a marriage change, but they don't change alike.

If two people in marriage change beyond reconciliation, divorce occurs - which often has many negative consequences. When two companies change, the business contract(s) between them can

A) Expire and not be renewed
B) Renewed and/or updated.

Neither A) or B) has, from legal perspectives, negative consequences.

C) Can end prematurely- divorce

In case of C, unlike marriage, one company is not entitle to half of the assets of the other company, nor is one company entitle to alimony, or child support (in a company child support would be equivalent to keeping certain join-projects alive)



Contracts are subject to interpretation.


At least contracts are subject to interpretation. Can't say the same for marriage when it's always the man's fault.



Wasn't it Plato who asserted that the phenomenal world could never attain the ideal?


In the Republic, Plato build (mentally) an ideal city in order to find an answer to the question, "What is Justice?". He also build a "city in high fever" in order to answer Glaucon's question, "What is injustice in itself?" - I'm paraphrasing.



Look at societies where divorce is rare, and you'll almost always see they have several things in common:

1) Women have no rights. Once a woman marries, she effectively become the property of her husband and his family.

2) Marriages are arranged. People do not choose their mates, nor do they marry for love. Marriages are contracted by families with an eye to making a "good match," usually one that is economically or socially advantageous to the family as a whole.

3) Marriage is concieved as a purely functional relationship. No one expects to be "happy" in their marriage. That doesn't matter. Husbands and wives each have roles to play. They play them. End of story.

4) Divorce is legally difficult, and those who divorce successfully--especially women--become social pariahs.


Look up the divorce rate of Italy. It's 1/5 of the divorce rate of USA - it's about 13%. Italy does not match any of your descriptions. But in all fairness, you did say "almost always".

I doubt "free society" is explanation for the high divorce rate. I think "Shitty people with shitty values and morals" is a better explanation.



If an "animal" lesser than a human being can mate for life... with their intelligence level... Im pretty sure I can do it too.


Perhaps some animals mate for live precisely because of their intelligence level - I mean their "low intelligence" level.

If you aren't intelligent enough to know you are being screwed (can't see wrong), you aren't going to seek divorce.


Apparently 3% of animals are monogamous and mate for life.


Do those 3% marry?

So there can be such a things as "monogamous and mate for life" yet without a marriage! Where do I sign-up for that option?

What about the other 97%? Are they monogamous? Why is 3% better evidence than 97%?



Why are there so many divorces ? women dont profit from being married . . . they only profit from divorce. Nothing worse than having a husband you have to answer to . . better to be free and have his credit card then move on to other boy toys


Brilliant!



For women and men alike, many perceive marriage as a highly risky proposition: Men fear the three scariest words in divorce - Child Support Payment. Rightly or wrongly, many men perceive women as predators going after their genes and then their money.


" Child Support Payment" really? I though it just one word, "Half!"

In actually it is a combination of child support, alimony, losing half of his life assets, etc. Though I must say men do not fear child support, they fear a woman's irresponsibility and inconsideration, carelessness, and lack of integrity.



Women feel the same way, but for different reasons: Marriage means her career may become second fiddle and that child rearing responsibilities will further reduce career options and even lead to poverty.


Actually you have it backwards. A woman doesn't fear marriage. She fears she might not get married. See:



Take a look at what Tiger Wood's wife is doing with her pre-nup. If she leaves him, she gets $300 MILLION !! Now YOU tell ME -- no matter what Tiger did as far as infidelity goes, what in the world did this woman do to earn $300 million? She marries the guy for 5 years and suddenly she's owed an oppulent lifestyle for 30 lifetimes?


^ What every woman truly wants! Okay, what nearly every woman truly wants!

I've noticed, what's her name, Elin, went directly for the cash, no counseling, nothing! Yeah, marriage is sacred.
 FixItMyself
Joined: 10/26/2009
Msg: 102
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/4/2009 4:58:04 PM
Hi pro-filer,

I went through a few of the links you posted:


http://www.infidelity-etc.com/index.php/4
Infidelity rates are getting higher and higher in the American society. Here are some infidelity statistics based on a survey by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago:
* 25 percent of men have had extramarital affairs
* 17 percent of women commited adultery


That data is from before 1993. As you'll soon see, a lot can change in 17 years.
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/adultery.html#text2 (see the footnote #2 for where I found the date).

Once again, from your links:


http://www.infidelity-etc.com/index.php/4

More than 50 percent of all married women, at some point, cheat on their mates, according to psychologist Bonnie Eaker Weil, who has written several books on adultery.



http://www.menstuff.org/issues/byissue/infidelitystats.html

"...younger women are as likely as younger men to be unfaithful."

Note that the above adultry (sic) statistics of the prevalence of affairs were made more than a decade ago; so based on changes in society during the intervening years, the current percentage of the population who have had affairs is probably somewhat HIGHER. For instance, the continuing increase of women in the workplace and the increase of women having affairs on the Internet means that the numbers for women having affairs is probably similar to those for men—about 60%


This is more of a confirmation of what I've said than a contradiction.

Any survey done on this subject is going to depend on the sample telling the truth about their adultery, so there's going to be a little wiggle room in the numbers.
I'm open to the idea that at one point men were having more affairs than women, but I believe the gap has narrowed to point where any difference in the numbers resulting from a poll on this subject would be statistically meaningless [hence the wiggle-room]. I believe the odds are even now.

You said:

According to the following links, infidelity is either the #1 or #2 reason for divorce...

I don't know what their criteria was for the order in which they listed those reasons.

I can say without a doubt that they are correct about "Problems Communicating" being a reason for a divorce. I believe that's the #1 reason any relationship ends, let alone a marriage.

The part I take issue with is this:

It's a hell of a thing to assume that because infidelity and abuse are placed high on these lists of reasons for divorce, that it means most of the divorces initiated by women (%70 remember) that most of them were cheated on and/or abused.

I refuse to believe there are that many abusive husbands.

It's more likely that the majority of those women who divorce realized that they could be happier with someone else, and decided to do something about it.


Women feeling emotionally unfulfilled is not even mentioned.

I suppose I could have have worded it more carefully, but the underlying theme remains.

Woman's Day did a poll in 2006, and found that 56% of married women either would not or might not marry their husbands if they could choose again.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 103
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/4/2009 5:00:57 PM

A woman doesn't fear marriage. She fears she might not get married.

Let's not generalize. SOME women fear never being married. You're half right though. Women who don't want marriage don't fear it, as they'd only end up in one if they chose to.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 104
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History
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/4/2009 6:33:33 PM

It's a hell of a thing to assume that because infidelity and abuse are placed high on these lists of reasons for divorce, that it means most of the divorces initiated by women (%70 remember) that most of them were cheated on and/or abused.

I refuse to believe there are that many abusive husbands.

I suspect the reports of abuse are inflated; people are angry, sad and hurt as a marriage dies and some tend to exaggerate conditions and place blame on their spouse. Let's also not forget that there are an extraordinarily wide range of behaviours that are considered abusive: at the lower end of the scale, if someone yells at the other on a telephone it is abusive behaviour.
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 106
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/4/2009 7:37:12 PM
I believe the term most used today is some form of "irreconcilable differences", while I'm sure infidelity is up there, this term or it's derivatives are on many bluebacks.

^^^ Sorry Hutch, you should read the thread in over 30 dating 'what is normal and what is crazy?' Something like that. A 32 year old woman who wants to know how soon she can push a guy she's seen for 4 months to marry cause she feels desparate!!! Scary
 Rarebird76
Joined: 5/10/2009
Msg: 108
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/4/2009 10:24:11 PM

People should just have 10 year commitment contracts and then renew if they both want to.
How bout have it in one year increments! Actually I recently heard this that in Shia Islam 'temporary' marriage is practiced. hah. *puts on snazzy salesmen cap* 'hey laydeez!!!! Just think with new adjustable length marriages you can "have your cake and eat it too" *wink wink* You'll be the talk of the town and all the gossipers will wonder how long did you hook YOUR man for!!! "Hmmm......I bet she's got him on the 3 year plan" or the ever hurtful "probably just a 12 monther" Well, they'll never know! (unless ya tell em). Keep suspense levels high as well as your mans will to live knowing that no matter how bad it might get it's not forever!!!



Now that I would do.
 FixItMyself
Joined: 10/26/2009
Msg: 111
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/5/2009 12:27:20 PM

Sure, I'm good with that. I can agree, for the purposes of this discussion, that neither gender is more or less likely to engage in bad behavior, whether it be adultery, abuse, substance abuse, etc. Fair?
My statement was limited to the scope of adultery [between husbands and wives]. Those other things ("'abuse', substance abuse, etc") were not addressed by that particular point I made.


I do think some inequity exists especially when it comes to child custody issues.
Over 80% of custody cases having the kid not go to the father indicates more that just "some" inequity to me.


Again, why is this a problem, exactly? Is a woman obligated to stay until the MAN decides he is unhappy enough to part?
I never said it was a problem.

My statement was made as an alternative explanation [a much more plausible one] to why all these women are divorcing; an alternative to the idea that all these divorcing wives were motivated to leave by a cheating spouse or an abuser.

Think about that for a sec.

With 70% of divorce fillers being women, I find the idea that most of them are motivated to leave by a cheating/battering husband is especially pessimistic.

Is it more likely that all these divorcing wives are escaping an abusive/cheating spouse, or is it more likely that they saw the grass is greener for some more mundane reason?


Is there a poll regarding how many men wouldn't marry or might not marry their wives again?
I'm not sure why you think it matters; it's not husbands who make up the overwhelming percentage of people filling for divorce.
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 113
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/5/2009 6:31:12 PM
"I don't see why men see this as a negative quality."

Isn't that funny, after all the 1,000's of threads on here with women saying they were disposable after sex. A woman saying, oh it's ok to dispose of men, cause we weren't happy. How sublime, yet somehow, ironic!!
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 114
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/5/2009 7:34:48 PM
Statistics are great, but they can be misleading for many reasons. Like how you ask the question. For instance "is the idea of lifelong marriage obsolete", we all want to hope that would be the case. But the numbers belie the facts, how can 68% believe no, when 50% of the population divorces?

One other point, there are less than 9,000 total votes on that poll, and more than 7,700 come on the question of would you remarry your spouse again. Less than 700 voted on the other questions, not very broad now is it. In order to have validity in a country of 300 million, we would need a poll of 3 million or 1% of our population, to really gauge nationwide sentiment. Even a poll of 50 or 100 thousand would give a better read. Also depends on who you ask, a poll taken among devote Catholics, who don't believe in divorce, would make the poll moot.
 FixItMyself
Joined: 10/26/2009
Msg: 115
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/5/2009 7:42:25 PM

Women are much less likely to settle for miserable, unsatisfying, boring marriages than men are. Men would rather stay in such a marriage because they see it as too much trouble to change it...

...I don't see why men see this as a negative quality.

To break up a family because one is bored is disgustingly selfish. See what divorces do to kids then you'll know why it's viewed as a negative.


Women are willing to take more risks and do more work in order to possibly be happy one day.

Uh huh, whatever...
 lizlizzie2
Joined: 8/22/2009
Msg: 117
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/5/2009 8:23:51 PM
Hutch. I believe you are closer to the truth than most people are willing to accept. Having worked in family law for over 25 years, the reality of what I see is that marriage is hard and people give up. It is a whole lot easier to get a divorce than it is to work on your marriage. And today there is no stigmitism associated with doing so. Certainly, anyone should be able to get out of an abusive relationship or similarly an addictive spouse, i.e., alcoholic, drug addict, gambler, but most divorces I have seen simply boil down to people lose interest and don't work on their relationship. They have all kinds of excuses for cheating or quitting, when in reality they have forgotten what vows really mean. It doesn't help that we have raised several generations of quitters with the attitude of schools over the past 30 years that it no one fails, everyone passes, that we should not keep score in children's sports, and similar let us make believe the world is nice and life is easy. Life is hard. Relationships are hard. And divorces are most often the result of not keeping promises, not willing to work, and quitting as the easy way out. I am divorced and I fought it, but since we no longer have to have a reason other than irreconilable differences and my ex chose divorce over working on the marriage, there was nothing I could do about it. So even when one person is willing to honor their vows and work hard, it takes two.
 FixItMyself
Joined: 10/26/2009
Msg: 119
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/5/2009 9:09:54 PM

To fail to respect, value, and appreciate your spouse so that he or she feels little choice but to leave you is disgustingly selfish.

Are you saying that's what's happened to majority of these divorcing wives?
 RazzleRoadRunner
Joined: 4/13/2007
Msg: 120
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/5/2009 9:32:35 PM

To fail to respect, value, and appreciate your spouse so that he or she feels little choice but to leave you is disgustingly selfish.


FixItMyself.....

Are you saying that's what's happened to majority of these divorcing wives?


For a lot of divorcing wives, this is what has happened...........a man would not stay in a marriage either if he didn't feel respected, valued and appreciated.

The marriage vows say to love, honor and cherish each other.........by honoring/respecting and saying thank you to your wife or husband, you are saying I appreciate what you do or what you have done. Or one can reciprocate with another kind gesture as pre-determined by yourself and surprise your wife/husband.
 oldkid
Joined: 7/3/2006
Msg: 122
view profile
History
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/6/2009 8:08:44 AM

She is considering leaving him because his way of ignoring her clearly expressed needs (affection, sex , and contribution to the running of the home and family) show her that he does not respect her, value her, or appreciate her and all that she does for the marriage. In short, she feels unloved


Respect, value, and appreciation are earned by someone's day to day behaviors and actions. They are not automatically guarenteed by saying "I do"

The other major factor is the difference in understanding the needs of the spouse and how those needs are communicated and met or not met! Women and men just don't easily speak the same language
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 128
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/6/2009 10:58:50 AM
"if marriage is extict, why are there still wedding dresses being made and money cards being printed with words 'congratulations on your wedding"! Why are there people who are still employed as 'wedding planners'?"

Several things here and several reasons. First as the title says 'on the way out' not 'extinct'. Next as to the questions quoted, because there is great money in it, it's a business, has little to do with feelings or divorce or what happens in couple dynamics AFTER the wedding.

Women are conditioned to expect a wedding. Disney, Barbie bride, magazines, peer pressure and the biological clock being some of the reasons. But when you step back and look at the number, the divorce rate for last year, excluding 6 states was, 47.5%. That should give many pause before walking down the aisle.

As for lawyers and their, ah, expertise. You know, they charge an arm and a leg, at least the best ones. Again it is a business for them. You go to a deposition, they are kidding with the other lawyer, making plans for lunch, or golf. Your standing there miserable, angry, upset and more, they exhibit little compassion, why? Because it is just a job to them, a way to make a buck and your feelings don't mean a fuken thing, just thinking how they can eat through the retainer, to get another payment!
 oldkid
Joined: 7/3/2006
Msg: 129
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marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/6/2009 6:35:20 PM
GoodGirl100
I think we can agree that those feelings of respect and value were there at the time of the marriage - the act of marriage shows those feelings. The problem comes later in the marriage when one or both of the partners figure out that their expectations are not being met. Excessive weight gain, PMS, child rearing, and menopause are some things that destroy many marriages from a man's prespective. I would assume that man's lack of concern for children, work compulsion, and emotional support do the same thing from a woman's perspective.


"all that SHE does for the marriage".
While her and you may see this as good, is she doing things for the home and family or her husband? What does "for the marriage" mean? A workaholic could say that and the spouse would totally disagree. Both spouses need to be doing things for the other at a personal level.

Men and women both have difficulty with the needs/wants problem. Sometimes because they require more effort than they are willing to put out, sometimes because they don't see them as important. I agree that communication (- the emotion) would solve many of these issues but it just doesn't happen - too many emotionally charged issues on both sides. Take the sex/affection comment you made; often times these are more connected together in the woman's mind than the man's. Affection being the emotional connection while sex is the physical.

A new thought: maybe the prevelance of emotional problems in society today is a major contributor to divorce? Why can't couples openly discuss any topic without the emotionally charged environment? Obviously a major problem because it doesn't even happen in these forums.
 forumrum
Joined: 5/25/2009
Msg: 134
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/7/2009 12:32:58 PM
".....there's nothing wrong with lawyers making money by offering a service. if you would rather spend 3 or 4 years going through law school......" (quoted from message 132 above)

Actually it is a 4 year undergrad degree, then three years of post grad university (law school), then one year articling under another lawyer, then the bar courses, then bar exams.

Education is on par with doctors and a tough way to make a living. The fees for services cover insurance, rent, staff, advertising, utilities, office expenses, etc.

Everyone complains about them until you need one.
 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 135
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/7/2009 3:21:07 PM

(pro-filer) I think it bears repeating that the person who initiates a divorce isn't necessarily the one whose lack of effort ended it.


Absolutely correct. However, if 70%-80% of divorces were filed by men, NOBODY would want to hear ANY justification for it.

Binroe...
 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 136
marriage on the way out?? if not why are there so many divorces?
Posted: 12/7/2009 5:09:02 PM

My best friend is trying to decide if she is going to leave her marriage, and her husband does not cheat, beat, or suffer from addiction. She is considering leaving him because his way of ignoring her clearly expressed needs (affection, sex , and contribution to the running of the home and family) show her that he does not respect her, value her, or appreciate her and all that she does for the marriage. In short, she feels unloved. I am only speaking from my own observations (I have no hard data on this) but I see and hear this over and over again. So, yes, I think this is why lots of women leave.


I've found from my experience and from other guys I know that women love to believe that they are being upfront, working hard to make things work, respecting their men, blaugh, blaugh, blaugh... but the women often fail to see what THEIR part in the fvck up is.

I accept that I was at least half of the reason my ex and I broke up, but I refuse to accept that I was the whole reason things fvcked up. Apparently, I never did anything for my ex or the relationship. Did I fvck up? Absolutely. Did I take things for granted? Absolutely. Did I feel entitled in some ways? Abso-fvcking-lutely.

Did I feel that I was not respected? Yup. Did I feel used? Yup. Did I feel taken for granted? Sure did.

Did I communicate that effectively? Nope. Did she communicate her feelings effectively? Nope.

Women really need to get over themselves and their belief that they are the marvelous communicators that they believe they are.....

... 'cause from my experience and every guy I know, women are just as shitty at communicating as they accuse men of being.

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