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 BowdenK
Joined: 11/29/2009
Msg: 73
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?Page 3 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Lecutter,

Evolution, to me, has always been trivial. It is a theory to prove that "things change." Of course things change. So, if evolution is simply an event of change, ask yourself how one can act contrary to change? A favorite saying of mine is "Change is the only constant." So in that, even ending change, which is impossible, is itself a change. Change is universal, to every corner of the universe, or multiverse if you adhere to that perspective. So if change removes humanity, it is not contrary to humanity. It is simply part of the universal and inevitable change. Your question is not whether we are acting contrary to evolution, but contrary to survival as a species, because sometimes for evolution to take place as it exists on a universal scale, some things must end. Change is just that, ending and beginning, ending and beginning.

If your question refers to the "progress" of humanity and not the survival. Well, that is relative, without a doubt.

I guess I have two requests if you are still following your thread:

Define "substandard breeding" with examples.

Define "perfection" (in terms of human evolution) with examples.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 76
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Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/22/2009 3:17:33 PM
hey dukky, [or whom it may be of interest to] if there is no devolution, then how do we account for all the mutations [neutral mutations] that humans are acquiring?



they are taking up space.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 77
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/22/2009 9:56:01 PM


You raise a very interesting point here. Evolution has brought us here and will continue to operate upon us, regardless of what we do. Yet we have trouble accepting the process which brought us about. If our human morality causes us to behave in ways which oppose evolution, doesn't that suggest that it is our morality that is wrong, or is it perhaps our (incorrect?) perception of evolution?


The OP's question is ill-formed. It implicitly assumes that evolution is guiding us towards some goal. It isn't. It's not as if our genes got together and decided "We're going to evolve another arm. Let's hope these humans don't mess it all up by feeding the sick."
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 79
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/23/2009 1:27:37 PM


This gives us the best odds for survival, which is what we mean by evolution. The dumbening down of the species works contrary to that goal...survival.


Well we could always lock you in a room with a dumb lion and see which one of you becomes dinner.
 acuddler
Joined: 10/30/2009
Msg: 80
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/23/2009 2:31:21 PM
If there were anything to evolution, it would be impossible to work against it. The closest nature has come to a perfect organism is not a huge alien. It is the little virus...except that a virus is not truly an organism as it is not fully alive. Next up from that is the****oach...which can even be born pregnant. We manage to kill quite a few of those.

Your ideas of breeding were proven wrong by Heinrcih Himmler who used them to to become a bankrupt chicken farmer before becoming a failed SS Chief. His Lebensborne program was supposed to produce a master race, and failed. It created too many samples from too small a gene pool-inbreeding-and caused a delcine, not a rise, in the race. If you breed for looks, you get physically weak people with no brains. Breed for brains,and you get ugly people who spend more time pondering philosophy, and not enough preparing for disaster, and they all get wiped out by the next hurricane.

In case you had not noticed, evolution is a myth. Everything is moving down, not up...in accordance with the law of entropy. For your psychotic dream of a master race through evolution via selective breeding to work, you would have to find a way to violate the laws of thermodynamics...which can't be done. Spend more time studying physics, and less time reading the psychotic ravings of demented morons who lose wars.

The Third Reich was based solidly upon Darwinism, and it failed...because Darwin was an idiot. It wasn't ' The Master Race ' which came up with the A-Bomb...or Dam Buster Bombs...or Norden Bomb Sites...or LTVs...or The B-17. It was lowly, little, 'inferiors' such as Jews, and those mixed breed types who mated with Jews, Gypsys, Blacks, Amerindians, etc. World War Two forever disproved Darwin. Wake up, and smell the cordite.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 81
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/23/2009 6:58:29 PM


If there were anything to evolution, it would be impossible to work against it.


Evolution is a change in gene frequencies in a given population over time. The only way to work against evolution is to stop reproducing and stop dying. Neither of these are going to happen unless humans go extinct.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 82
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Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/23/2009 7:59:50 PM
there is evidence that we are devolving, and non that we are evolving.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 83
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/24/2009 8:59:20 AM


there is evidence that we are devolving, and non that we are evolving.


This is a purely subjective judgment that has no basis in the observed phenomena of evolution. How do you determine what is evolution and what is devolution?
 acuddler
Joined: 10/30/2009
Msg: 84
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/24/2009 9:51:22 AM
CountIbli - The theory of evolution is that everything is progressing upwards, getting better, more complex, more developed, etc. Entropy says that everything is wearing out, breaking down, becoming less complex, etc. All evidence supports entropy,and none supports evolution. Survival of the fittest is supposed to be a mechanism by which evolution works. The idea of that is that the bigger, faster, stronger, more adaptable, etc, survives to breed another day, and so pass on it's survival/adapatbility factors.

In reality, it is NOT the big, strong, etc, which survives. The huge, strong, armor plated, saber toothed, etc, dinosaur ist kaput...extinct. The lowly, little, weak, slow, largely defenseless, mosquito is still here...almost totally unchanged by hundreds of millions of years of time/breeding. Likewise, the small, weak, etc, Escherica Coli bacteria is still here...totally unchanged by billions of years. E. Coli, and the mosquito-puny, and defenseless as they are-helped wipe out the dinosaurs. E. Coli has not adapted at all. It didn't need to. Yet, it survives...while: dinosaurs, Tasmanian Tigers, etc, have gone extinct.

BTW, Warren Buffet-as experienced a money maker as he is-LOST SEVEN BILLION DOLLARS IN ONE DAY in the stock market crash of October 1987. If there were anything to evolution, that should NOT have happened. His wealth building (intelligence, etc) genes-inherited form wealth building ancestors-SHOULD have made him smart enough to avoid such a goof. I was invested in the stock market in October 1987. I MADE MONEY during the crash...not a fortune, but not a loss. Great wealth leads to great stupidity. The Buffet types think they are smart enough, and powerful enough, to violate economic laws, and so ignore such things as 'supply & demand'. Nature has a way of re-educating morons like Buffet every once in awhile...but they soon forget the lessons.
 BowdenK
Joined: 11/29/2009
Msg: 85
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/24/2009 10:44:20 AM
acuddler,

I've thought about that as well (the bigger, faster, etc being extinct). It sorta removes the "better" component and makes me wonder a little bit about "luck." Whatever the case, kudos for calling attention to what should be the obvious but is widely ignored/unnoticed.

The only animal I'm disappointed to have missed is the dodo bird. The rest of 'em were big enough to squash me or full of sharp/pointy objects with which to flay me into raw delicacy.
 acuddler
Joined: 10/30/2009
Msg: 86
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/24/2009 10:55:08 AM
Bowdenk - Thanks. The Dodo was cool. I sort of miss the Pixelated Woodpecker.
 BowdenK
Joined: 11/29/2009
Msg: 87
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/24/2009 4:27:38 PM
I'm not a member of the bird-watching culture, but isn't that a joke term for out-of-focus woodpeckers? People were saying that they were getting shots of birds thought to be extinct, but it was really just pixelated images?

Correct me if I'm wrong. Like I said, not a bird watcher. I couldn't find anything on a pixelated woodpecker, though.
 acuddler
Joined: 10/30/2009
Msg: 88
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/25/2009 12:43:28 AM
The Pixelated Woodpecker was an actual species which is said to have gone extinct in the mid 1940s. Some people say they have seen a few since then, but no one has proven it yet as far as I know. The last proven sighting was in North Carolina. The name was given because of the birds behavior. It seemed drunken. The word 'pixelated' was once a slang term for 'drunken', so the apparently drunken acting bird was named 'Pixelated'. Pixelated is now also used to mean an image which has blocky large 'pixels' (computer slang for 'picture elements').

I am not the big bird watcher that some are, but have friends who are and I have read some of their books, and seen some of their videos. The Pixelated Woodpecker was too highly adapted...to one thing. It could only nest in one species of tree...and only in those members of that species which had a certain disease...and then only in those infected trees which were in a particular stage of the disease. Once all the trees of that old growth species of tree were cut down by logging companies-because it made nice furniture-the birds had nowhere to nest, and so couldn't breed, and so died out. Unconfirmed reports of Pixelated Woodpecker sightings exist, but could be hoaxes, or mistaken identities. As far as can be confirmed, none of the required trees now exist.

Th e Pixelated Woodpecker ate insect larvae which now run rampant, harming other tree species, and crops, so the bird is having it's revenge on man posthumously.
 acuddler
Joined: 10/30/2009
Msg: 89
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/25/2009 12:53:00 AM
Bowdenk - I'm not sure, but think the name 'Pixelated' was given the woodpecker as a nickname...a common, or street, name...the way Alsatian dogs are also called German Shepherds. I think the more official name for the Pixelated Woodpecker was The Ivory Billed Woodpecker. It may have been a different species, but I think it was the Ivory Billed. I last read about, and saw videos on, it about 15 years ago...so I may have it confused with another species. It makes for interesting research, though.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 90
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/26/2009 11:39:39 AM


CountIbli - The theory of evolution is that everything is progressing upwards, getting better, more complex, more developed, etc. Entropy says that everything is wearing out, breaking down, becoming less complex, etc. All evidence supports entropy,and none supports evolution. Survival of the fittest is supposed to be a mechanism by which evolution works. The idea of that is that the bigger, faster, stronger, more adaptable, etc, survives to breed another day, and so pass on it's survival/adapatbility factors.


This is what you think the ToE to be, but there's very little overlap between what you think and what is. Evolution has already been observed. I see your knowledge of thermodynamics ranks down there with your knowledge of evolution. With all the resources available on the Internet there is no excuse for this kind of ignorance.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 91
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/26/2009 11:41:46 AM


The Pixelated Woodpecker ate insect larvae which now run rampant, harming other tree species, and crops, so the bird is having it's revenge on man posthumously.


Wow, sounds like evolution in action.
 Link6376
Joined: 8/1/2009
Msg: 92
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/26/2009 12:50:51 PM
Evolution does not apply to us anymore.

End of story.
 Link6376
Joined: 8/1/2009
Msg: 93
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/26/2009 1:38:02 PM
Not sure what you mean exactly by that Paul but the research supporting evolution is pretty comprehensive. Have you looked at it?

The point that I was trying to make is that our technology has changed things for us so much that genetic mutations do not increase our survival value anymore. It's no longer survival of the fittest. "Survival of the richest" might be more accurate.

Evolution is driven by genetic mistakes...mutations...sometimes those mutations are beneficial....almost always they are detrimental. It's the rare occasions which are beneficial...say for instance a frog grows an arm....that cause a swing in the development of new species. Name ONE genetic mutation that could cause a human being to be able to "better survive and reproduce." There is none really. I could grow wings...I could breathe fire...none of this matters anymore....we are not being hunted by anything.....

Happy holidays!
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 94
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/26/2009 5:49:08 PM


Evolution does not apply to us anymore.

End of story.


Evolution still applies to us. It will stop when humanity ceases to exist, but not before then. It amazes me how people speak authoritatively on subjects they know nothing about.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 95
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/26/2009 5:54:08 PM


If this is evolution, what specie has changed?


I'll answer the question once you find out what evolution is.


If this was evolution in action, wouldn't this silly bird have found another way to survive?


Why do you think evolution would prevent the species from going extinct?



What has changed? What has evolved?


The larvae.



That sounds beyond silly to me, unless you meant it sarcastically...........


What's silly is that you choose to remain ignorant about a subject that you pontificate about.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 96
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/26/2009 6:01:32 PM


Evolution is driven by genetic mistakes...mutations...sometimes those mutations are beneficial....almost always they are detrimental. It's the rare occasions which are beneficial...say for instance a frog grows an arm....that cause a swing in the development of new species. Name ONE genetic mutation that could cause a human being to be able to "better survive and reproduce." There is none really. I could grow wings...I could breathe fire...none of this matters anymore....we are not being hunted by anything.....


We are still evolving. You need to get this idea out of your head that humans somehow can't get any better. Or that evolution is about getting better.

An example of a possible beneficial mutation is a natural resistence to AIDS, which is decimating Africa. Certainly a baby born of a woman with AIDS would be more likely to survive and reproduce if it had a natural resistence to AIDS, rather than dying as a baby because of AIDS.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 98
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Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/27/2009 6:42:12 PM
for some reason, many want to believe in evolution, but there is no concrete evidence for it.

ccr5 is said to be evidence for evolution. it's a deletion mutation, usually bad, and it was around before aids.
it's a very damaged receptor.

other things adapt, especially bacteria.
bacteria have to adapt to new unprepared for situations.
if adaptation means evolution, then I believe in evolution.
there is no evidence of species change.
also no examples of concrete good mutations.
I think we do have evidence of 10,ooo or so bad mutations.

sickle cell is called a serious decease, are you sure you want to use that as a leading example of a good mutation?

the cell has mutation fixers in it, they do screw up from time to time. the mutations are never 100% good, as far as I have been able to determine.

evolution, in my mind, is just an interesting fantasy, with no proof whatsoever. lots of intimidation though.
for some reason, many want to believe it.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 100
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Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/27/2009 9:19:08 PM
So, a gene that was already in our body, got shut on, so our bodies could handle milk again.

and that's an example of evolution? I don't think so.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 101
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Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/27/2009 10:17:39 PM
all the wild goose chases are a bit annoying, but so I learn, I guess.

the evolution pushers on these threads never tell the whole story, or the other side.
extremely slanted information.

there is, to me, a huge difference between adaptation with existing information, and totally newly created information, which evolution needs, which I don't think I have ever been shown.

I have watch many documentaries, and they are just put out as impressionable stories to those who believe evolution already, no proof that I have seen, just made for tv stuff.
I watch them though.

unless you have a very creative imagination, there are no transitional fossils.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 103
Are we working contrary to evolution as a species?
Posted: 12/28/2009 8:49:00 AM

and that's an example of evolution? I don't think so.


What do you think evolution is? The biggest problem I've found is that almost everybody who is anti-evolution doesn't even know what evolution is.



unless you have a very creative imagination, there are no transitional fossils.


Here's the evidence that you're a liar.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/archaeopteryx.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/
http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/
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