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 Gogetter1956
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 61
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An Inconvient Dog Ate My HomeworkPage 4 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)

Paul,
He said he would cut taxes on capitol gains for small businesses.
Even a tax credit can get people hiring. Look, this isn't the only plan he has in his larger jobs plan. This is just one program. He is going to cut the tax incentives for those who ship jobs overseas. Maybe that will bring some of those jobs back. (I say put a tariff on those American companies who don't want to manufacture here in America)
As far as demand goes, it will go up as people get back to work.


Skooch you missed what GC said above this post. Businesses won't hire more employees unless there is a significant increase in their products or services. Tax Credits won't get people hired.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 62
An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 2/17/2010 5:50:48 PM
When the government spends money that they either have to tax to get, borrow to get, or print to get, and then spends it, when they spend it, the only thing that is accomplished is that the money is GONE. That is the ONLY thing achieved.


It depends on what the money is spent on. When it goes toward funding infrastructure and basic research that private parties have little incentive to fund, the resulting economic growth generates a higher tax base. The multiplier effect of those up-front funds generates secondary employment and spending in the private sector, which generates tertiary job creation.

The only difference between government and private investment is the timeframe in which those returns must be realized. Private investments must typically reach payback within a few years, whereas government investments can reach payback over a far longer period. Payback and net present value calculations are different. The taxpayers are presumably more patient than private investors.

Government subsidies for consumption also have secondary effects. As the subsidized consumers spend, those who sell to them generate profits and pay taxes. The net present value of consumption subsidies is still negative, but perhaps less negative than the costs of cleaning up after food riots or public health crises.


The only person that thinks that the government can stimulate job growth by spending money that they don't have is a fool.


If small businesses can stimulate job growth by borrowing to expand production capacity, so can governments. All they have to do is ensure that the net present value of the investment they plan to make exceeds the cost of the loan.

Which is a bigger waste of resources? The money spent on nannying, or the costs of making products whose only use is to destroy the lives and livelihoods of identified enemies? Don't get me wrong. Defense is necessary, but if you're going to lament big government spending, you might want to consider being consistent about it. How much precious oil did we burn to indulge Prince George and the Neocons?

I agree that there is a certain amount of immorality in enabling people to stay poor and ignorant, but funding for schools has a much better ROI for us than funding weapons systems that even the military doesn't want. What were we spending on those damned planes when our soldiers didn't have adequate body or vehicle armor?

Milton Friedman had a very good point. Direct government spending can definitely be overdone. But it is simply naive to think that government investment is always a waste. We're supposed to vote for people who have good judgment, not for people who parrot the party line we prefer.
 Gogetter1956
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 63
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An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 2/17/2010 8:00:00 PM

I beleive that outsourcing our labor market and insourcing an illegal labor market has helped kill the economy by driving down labor rates.


Hey Skooch here's where you and I agree! If they would properly deal with the illegals, then we legals would be able to afford to pay for those USA made products here and outsourcing wouldn't be so necessary and could be penalized rightfully so to help protect our own interests.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 64
An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 2/17/2010 8:09:09 PM
Companies go offshore for two reasons; 1. to reduce costs, 2. to get closer to their markets.

One must be very careful far more careful than Obumbler could possibly understand, before messing with these business drivers.

For example if Haliburton needs to be close to a Saudi oil field, how then would punishing them help anyone? Punish them enough and one of two things will happen, a European country will win the project, Haliburton will move offshore. net effect; lose-lose for USA.

Let's suppose then Haliburton wins the project and needs metals to build things. So the American based supplier heretofore in Houston is penalized because they need to be next door to the customer in Saudi.

Get the picture?

Obviously an American based company providing products offshore is good (think GM). Why would you punish them for expanding to China and Brazil to keep the market? to create and sell products in the USA at a competitive cost to Chinese, Indian and Korean companies.

if i want a bank shaken down because some deadbeat didn't get a slum apartment financed, I'd call Obama, but he is hardly capable of understanding global economics.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 65
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An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 2/17/2010 11:26:45 PM

IE have States tell the feds that laws are unconstitutional and refuse to enact them


A state law that contradicts either the U.S. Constitution or a federal law or treaty is invalid. But in the 1990's--in the New York and Printz decisions--the Court held that the U.S. government can't directly command states to enforce federal laws.

What Congress does instead is use its spending power to coerce states into enforcing federal laws by threatening to withhold related federal funds from ones that refuse. For example, if the California Clean Air Resources Board (one subdivision of the California EPA) fails to enforce the Clean Air Act thoroughly enough, the Secretary of Transportation can withhold federal grants for road projects in the region that hasn't complied. In practice, U.S. EPA has only recommended this drastic remedy a couple times, preferring to "work with" noncompliant states.

Even so, I don't think any administrative agency--not one of the employees of which is elected--should have that much power. How do they get it? Congress delegates it to them. So, EPA and dozens of other federal agencies can exercise Congress' spending power, despite the fact the Constitution gave that power only to Congress. The Court used to call Congress for "unlawful delegation," but the last time it did was in three cases in 1936. Since then, unlawful delegation's become sort of a dead letter.

But we can also have Congress write laws that limit its ability to delegate its powers. In the end, our right to vote lets us prevent any part of the U.S. government from doing anything. If enough of us want to, we can have Congress completely remove the federal courts' jurisdiction to decide an issue, demand that it impeach and convict any high official, including a U.S. President, and even amend the Constitution.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 66
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An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 2/18/2010 8:01:56 AM

It depends on what the money is spent on. When it goes toward funding infrastructure and basic research that private parties have little incentive to fund, the resulting economic growth generates a higher tax base. The multiplier effect of those up-front funds generates secondary employment and spending in the private sector, which generates tertiary job creation.


That's true--if a government builds a dam or an airport or funds research on superconducters, it creates jobs directly. The people who work at them then use various goods and services and pay various taxes.

But where does government get the money to do these things, except from taxes or from selling bonds? Either way, it is using money that otherwise would have been spent for other things. Isn't government just deciding where the money is best spent, rather than letting the workings of the marketplace do it?

If so, I don't see a problem when national-scale projects are involved. The interstate highway system, for example, benefits the whole country, and it's hard to see private investors ever building anything that took that long to complete and where a profit was so uncertain.

But for other things, why should a government decide what it's best to invest in at the moment? The Progressive movement was all about using experts and central planners to make those decisions, rather than trusting them to markets, which most Progressives distrusted as chaotic and outdated. How modern and wonderful--let Woodrow Wilson and the other professors decide things. That's a lot like what we have right now.

And the results have been awful. We've had 80 or even 100 years of federal programs, from Social Security to Head Start, that's been a complete bust. It's hard to think of even one that's worked well. Maybe the CCC or the FHA? The total amount of money spent and wasted on them during that time is hard to imagine--tens or hundreds of times the defense spending you mention.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 67
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An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 2/18/2010 11:36:20 AM

They need to take back their constitutional powers.


Agreed. One thing that hasn't helped was the loss of the congressional veto, which the Court held unconstitutional in the 1980's. Congress used to use it to overrule regulations by administrative agencies, if it didn't think they carried out the intent of its laws. That would be nice to have right now, with the EPA rule on CO2 hanging over the head of businesses throughout the country.

I see Texas has already sued over this rule, and so have a number of private business organizations. But it won't be easy to win, when the Court's just held CO2's a "pollutant" under the Clean Air Act.
 Gogetter1956
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 68
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An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 2/18/2010 9:00:38 PM
I think we had plenty of laws a long time ago. Someday the law writing machine needs to be turned off, at least for a while.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 69
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An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 2/19/2010 6:23:03 PM

How is the CAA constitutional to begin with


Good question. I think Congress justified all those major federal environmental laws by its power to regulate interstate commerce. Until the mid-1930's, the Court usually didn't let Congress use the Commerce Clause as the basis for regulating an activity unless it had some clear effect on interstate or foreign commerce. But after FDR threatened to pack the Court with 12 justices, it began to interpret some parts of the Constitution--including the Commerce Clause--a lot more broadly. It didn't show signs of reversing that trend until the 1990's--20 years after the CAA and other major environmental laws were passed. And you're right--Congress could solve the problem just by revising the CAA to say that CO2 is not a "pollutant."
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 70
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An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 8/31/2010 1:05:23 PM
^^^^^*Something* must make the earth tend to be stable, or life couldn't have survived here for so long. There have been catastrophes far, far worse than anything we'll ever be able to cause, and each time the earth recovered. The photos of Mars show something literally broke it in two, early on, and Earth was exposed to the same kind of thing. The Moon's the evidence of that, as I understand it.

We know the CO2 content of the atmosphere has at times been much higher than now. Movement that's caused the earth's crust to split and the ocean area to change has had a lot to do with that. And at times it's almost certain there was almost no sunlight--for who knows how long--after large meteor strikes sent smoke and dust all over the Earth.

JD, do you know anything about this? I remember reading an "albedo" theory that the reflection of sunlight from snow and ice is a big cause of cooling. If it's a little cooler one year--because the Sun hiccuped, because ash from volcanos obscured the atmosphere, because the wobble of the poles changed the angle at which sunlight falls on the Earth very slightly, because the concentration of greenhouse gases goes down a little, because there's more cloud cover, or whatever--less snow and ice melts. And that means a little more sunlight gets reflected the next year, which increases the total area of snow and ice, and a feedback cycle starts. It seemed to make sense, but in things scientific, that doesn't always mean much.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 71
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An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 8/31/2010 6:09:57 PM
^^^^It was a meteor that got Islam started. It's there, somewhere, and they built a shrine to it. The high panjandrums go there, bow to it, make incantations, etc. They probably figure it was Allah's brushback pitch to get their attention, and if they don't please him, the next one may not land out in the middle of the desert.

What blows me away is thinking how recent those four ice ages were, in terms of the Earth's history. I think the last one only ended about 12,000 years ago--they've found mummies from that time. For all we know, we're on the way back to saber-tooth cats and 2,000-lb. bears.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 72
An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 9/1/2010 5:55:17 AM
Re: warm and cold spells, the Maunder Minimum was roughly 1560 to 1860, aka The Little Ice Age. A few things interesting about that is it was the event that may have triggered the dark age, also much of the migration to the USA, e.g., the irish Potato famine which really played out throughout Europe in different but negative ways. It is often reported that it snowed 2 feet in Chicago on the 4th of July when Lincoln was campaigning for president. Also interesting it signifies the beginning of keeping temperature records, and they are warming...relative to an ice age! So then what is normal? Is it the 9th century when Vikings farmed in greenland which is now under a mile of ice, and Great britain was renowed for it's vineyards?

If one looks at temps over the roughly 150,000 years something approximating man existed, only very brief periods were warm as our current era, and they were considered golden ages. Ice ages are far more common, and dangerous.

But the left is conditioned to fear, and lending their numbers to their masters power lust. Split the country.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 73
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An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 9/4/2010 4:03:51 PM
Does anyone know what theories there are, if any, about what caused the Maunder minimum? If it had been volcanoes somewhere, the records would show it. But in the 1500's, no one would have noticed things like the Sun faltering very slightly.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 74
An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 9/4/2010 5:10:34 PM
The Maunder Minimum was entirely a sun went dormant phenomena. There are sunspot readings that can be recreated by examining ice cores, tree rings, and a number of esoteric and hard to comprehend ancillary tests.

The following is a good layman's primer on climate science, the interesting thing was this guy was way ahead of the curve on discrediting Dr. Michael Mann, the hockey stick guy, now recognized by all as a fraud.

http://www.john-daly.com/hockey/hockey.htm

The Stradivarias violins, long a mystery as to the source of the quality, is now attributed to this period, the growth was wo small, the wood thus becoming so dense, no violins before or since can capture the quality. Think 100 years of growth being an inch of thickness.

A researching of temperatures over time shows a almost complete correlation between sun intensity (sunspot levels) and temperature. of course it makes a more Inconvenient truth if man can cause it, it being harder to create industries and tax policies via sunspots.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 75
An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 7/28/2011 6:39:18 PM
Good news out there today on global warming that might just tempt some true believers that it's safe to come out from under the bed they are hiding under.

The first story concerns the the yanking of the scholarly crdentials (gag) of the clown who told Al Gore the polar bears were drowning. Anyone who actually understands the artic and polar bears knew immediately that was a BS story. How they made te bear assume a long face was this guys only achievement. The polar bear population has increased from 5,000 to 20,000 plus in recent decades and their range had expanded so much they were having unpleasant encounters with Grizzly bears.

The second concerns a NASA study wherein global alarmists computer models overstated heat retention from CO2 so dramatically that the models are completely out of whack with actual measurements. I'm surprised and delighted that NSAS was so honest The amount of fraud from governments, universities and the UN have been shocking to adults with an expectation of integrity. You Obama voters are probably still patiently waiting for him to pay your rent and remodel your kitchens.



http://news.yahoo.com/nasa-data-blow-gaping-hold-global-warming-alarmism-192334971.html
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 76
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An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 7/28/2011 8:37:50 PM
Off topic, although I know that's never stopped some folks here before.....

But speaking of "water"... what accounts for all the paranoia and wing-nuttery we always seem to hear about down there in O.C....?! Yeah, yeah, I know we NorCal folks have all the "fruits and nuts", etc., but it seems everytime you turn around, y'all have some sort of serious weirdness that just puts the rest of us to shame!

Of course there's always the infamous Birchers, and the OC bankruptcy (a first!... the only county to ever declare it!). But I'm talking about all that real ugly stuff, like former Congressman Robert "AIDS is God's answer to Gays" Dornan, or Mayor Dean Grose celebrating Obama's inauguration by sending out pics of watermelons on the White House lawn (classy!), or GOP Central Committee member Marilyn "Obama's an ape" Davenport ("I didn't mean it... honest")! Not to mention all the silly rants (like this thread) that willfully embrace crackpot ideas while ignoring virtually every legit scientific body on the planet!!

And of course now you have that crazy gal who just cut off her husband's pecker and stuck it in the garbage disposal! So what the heck is it with you guys, is it the San Onofre nuke plant, or maybe something in the water??!!!
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 77
An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 7/28/2011 9:34:11 PM
Mateo you are trying to hard man. No one has seen a Bircher since the 50's, anywhere. And when Repub trash screws up, we take it out. You dems promote it like Ed kennedy and mary Jo, Barney Frank running a call boy ring out of the gov. office. So seriously, although each of us is capable of incredible feats of moronitude....Repubs don't build statues of them, they are not institutionally tone deaf. I know libs are not very strong on making distinctions but should you just somehow manage to absorb this one little lesson you'll be the smartest lib probably in the entire state. No charge my friend^5.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 78
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An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 7/29/2011 8:28:32 AM
The whole point of what the people who are saying that we should split the state is that they want to show that the liberal areas are the ones that are living off of the conservative working class. Sure, there are exceptions to everything, but it seems like every large city has slums and homeless, and they are almost all far left.

Go to Irvine, or Orange, or just about any place in Orange County and look for homeless, and gang graffiti, and cars on blocks. You won't see any of that. Yeah, the Inland Empire has its share, but that is whole other discussion. The examples I gave above have nothing to do with race, because another thing that is blown out of proportion is the "race problem".

That may be the case in Orange County (the bankruptcy aside), but we all know that among the so-called "red" parts of this state, it's the exception and not the rule, where virtually all the other red counties are always at the bottom of the heap here. So how do you account for that? And please don't give me all the typical B.S. re: "illegals" and "minorities", etc., which the Coast also has more than it's share of as well.

And I can tell 'ya from first hand experience up here in NorCal, where I do quite a bit of volunteer work with folks on welfare and social services, that them's all some pretty "white" and "anglo" faces I see here!

BTW, thanks for the, um, "free advice", there Golf, though you're still welcome to send me a bill, which I'll gladly pay just as soon as all those Bush era Tax Cuts kick in to jump start the economy (any day now I hear... LOL)!
 ALivingDream
Joined: 5/2/2011
Msg: 79
An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 7/29/2011 8:52:19 AM
Dang it I spent so much time typing a response I got timed out!!!

Paul K. I don't know where the heck you live, but I was raised in Irvine. Trust me, we never thought of Orange as the same culture. Each region ( not city) is its own. Anaheim is not Newport or Laguna! I'm sure I have seen grafitti in Orange, most def. in Anaheim! Oh, let's not leave out Tustin...and omg SANTA ANA! The wealthiest place I have ever lived was Santa Ana. It's also the scummiest! I went to school with kids that wore REAL Rolex watches there! Santa Ana's borders are oddly made to include "the hills" which is where I lived. (You know the ones that connect seem like it would be Tustin, but is really Santa Ana, and connects to Orange, Irvine, and Anaheim, yah those!)

Now on the global warming...The jury is still out in my mind, but worth debating. Nothing has been debunked. In studies we know we will find both supporting data and data that refutes it, which is the whole point of investigating.

What I know for sure is that our culture is arrogant and destructive and there is a price to pay for that whether it is global warming or something yet unseen.
 RichenLosAngeles
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 80
An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 7/29/2011 11:11:04 AM
Skooch - I been to Bakersfield, OK ?
There are 2 predominant odors in that town : Cow poop, and petroleum.
Breathe deep, it's all good!

For those of you who are history buffs, native Americans called my area "land of the smokes" 150 years before cars were invented.
 ALivingDream
Joined: 5/2/2011
Msg: 81
An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 7/29/2011 2:30:18 PM
Thanks for the seemingly obvious tip PAul. I didn't think to try that. I concede OC is "better" overall which is why the property values are better (relatively speaking) in this economy. If there is global warming, just tell me where I need to purchase my inland property and how long I need to wait before it becomes beachfront!
 RichenLosAngeles
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 82
An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 7/29/2011 2:33:00 PM
Skooch, my education predates Google.
Look up Chumash Indians to further your own knowledge.

I did not say gas. I said petroleum. As in drilling, pumping, etc.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 83
An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 7/29/2011 3:46:48 PM
Skooch look up Valley of Smokes, the Indiginous folks called the SGV-SFV this name because the smoke from fires never left. (note once again I break my rule of researching for Libs, there are enough hours in my life to relieve their knowledge vacuum)

Aliving hold off on beachfront dreams, Al Gore made so much selling the dull on global warming he was able to purschase a beachfront home, 8 foot above mean low tide, in Montecito.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 84
An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 9/15/2011 2:39:12 PM
A couple of important and under-reported stories from the world of Climate Change, or whatever the left is calling it this week. Keywords include...Nobel prize winner

I have edited to be brief but included the links. Not in order of importance:

1. Dr. Ivar Giaever, a former professor with Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and the 1973 winner of the Nobel Prize in physics, abruptly announced his resignation Tuesday, Sept. 13, from the premier physics society in disgust over its officially stated policy that "global warming is occurring."

Giaever does not agree -- "I resign from APS," Giaever wrote.

Giaever was cooled to the statement on warming theory by a line claiming that "the evidence is incontrovertible."

"The claim … is that the temperature has changed from ~288.0 to ~288.8 degree Kelvin in about 150 years, which (if true) means to me is that the temperature has been amazingly stable, and both human health and happiness have definitely improved in this 'warming' period," his email message said.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/09/14/nobel-prize-winning-physicist-resigns-from-top-physics-group-over-global/#ixzz1Y3hDouht

2. The second article involves the theory I subscribe to re: climate which is "the sun is either too hot or too cold" at any point in time which is inconvenient to someone. Seriously it also involves theories regard variability in cloud formations (think water not CO2) and involving solar storms and cosmic rays. The notion that .003% of the CO2 being anthropogenic and where CO2 is a tiny trace gas versus the sun which can turn my skin bright red in 15 minutes or freeze a bucket of ice an hour after sunset seems compelling.

The CERN, the folks in Switzerland with the super particle collider thingy have proved the theory of cloud formation unequivocally. Llots of scientists will be running for their "settled science" claims ( See story #1,)

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100102296/sun-causes-climate-change-shock/
 BrownInOrange
Joined: 7/30/2011
Msg: 85
An Inconvient Dog Ate My Homework
Posted: 9/15/2011 11:12:22 PM
F*cking dog!

I didn't bother reading your post OP. Sorry. LOL.
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