Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  >      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 110
How do airplanes fly?Page 5 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
forgot to add this.... hummm what gasious substance is located in the upper atmosphere as well as in space? HUMMMM but using that for fuel would not require needing a huge re-fueling plane or gas stations stops being placed all over the place up there to get things done

Sorry but some of those people working in places like in texas are so smart they are TOO smart for their own good and let their ego's blind them to the most obvious of solutions. the more moving parts you have, the more complex it becomes, the more complex it is means the more prone to failure it is, and failure of even one crucial system or part in any air craft is deadly. Most designers pushing the boundries do not exactly incorporate redundant systems into their designs in order to save weight.
 aaamm
Joined: 7/5/2009
Msg: 114
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 1/7/2010 6:29:00 PM
25,700 miles per hour is about how fast Superman flies. So he flies twice as fast as he has to, 11,200 mph is what I understand is necessary in lay terms to break our atmosphere. But da planes except for Black hawks (I think I have right plane) doesn't go beyond our atmosphere right? Soooo...this doesn't matter to planes and how they fly right? (And yeah, just books and college physics and math, no degree in either. But love reading the posts and following them.)
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 115
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 1/7/2010 9:57:52 PM

Mach 7 isn't fast enough to get into orbit or escape from the Earth's gravity. A low circular orbit requires about 4.9 miles per second. Mach 7 is only roughly 1.4 miles per second. Escape velocity is roughly 7 miles per second.


So saith public released information....

Would not want people to know the "exact" requirements or you just might have every back yard builder cobbling stuff together.

I will give you a little tip that you can take or disregard.

Until you try something yourself never assume what you have read is accurate.

Quickest way to deter anyone from doing anything in life is to impose huge seemingly unreachable limitations within any materials they would have access to that they may be learning from.

basically put... Go mach 7 at 72,000 feet and yank the stick back wait 5.3824 seconds then come back here and tell us where you ended up.

You see sir i know your reply is not accurate because you made a statement like that without even asking the weight of the craft that would be going mach 7.

So how can you sit in front of your computer and tell me what the escape velocity would be for a ship you know not what it weighs to calculate the effect of gravity upon it.

What you gave me is the escape velocity of a huge assed rocket or shuttle weighing thousands of tons. read that from the broshure from the trip to nasa musium?

Some smart people down there. But stick too many smart people in one room and nothing gets done cause everyone wants to work on their own stuff....

PSSST here is a tip i already gave my weight now recalculate and you will see only mach 6.6 was trully needed to get through the pressure bubble.
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 116
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 1/7/2010 10:00:25 PM
But da planes except for Black hawks


Blackbird. But the planes are actully blue. The name Blackbird might have come because they were only flown on missions at night but not sure on that part.

I had a thought about rudder control.... on supersonic airframes.

If you look at normal planes you see the part that moves is at the back of the rudder section....

That mean in order for the rudder to be moved in either direction you need a massive force applied at a constant...

Like in jet liners that force is applied by hydralics.

But when i see air craft design i see that whole system as WRONG and flawed and backwards...

Instead of just part of the rudder moving like a boat is how they made it. But why make it like that?

Too much force is required.

Instead move the WHOLE rudder and have the front of the rudder be what moves.. that way all you need for pressure for it to turn would be enough for the rudder to decide if it is moving right or left. after that point you just need a step ratcheting system in place to stop the rudder from flopping all the way left or right.

basically put... the only force needed would be just a nudge and then it would be the job of distance limiters to control how fast and how far the ruddle moves...

Just my opinions. sorry just wanted to add that because i realised i did not explain it in the earlier post.
 A1_GOLD
Joined: 5/6/2009
Msg: 119
view profile
History
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 1/11/2010 7:58:02 PM
All the discussion of spy planes got me thinking.

James May, a British TV reporter, recently narrated a show called "James May on the Moon". Within the show he boards a U2 'NASA' spyplane and flies in it to 70,000 feet. I've never seen anything quite as beautiful concerning flight. You might look it up on YouTube as "Ride on a U2 spy plane". It puts flying to edge of space in good context.

I've never seen anything like it.
 endlesslift
Joined: 12/31/2009
Msg: 123
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 1/16/2010 11:31:27 AM
I was just looking at the original post.

The little airplane at http://www.rubber-power.com is rather interesting.

Did you realize that the design of an airfoil for a small air plane such as the rubber-power one is different than for a larger one such as a remote controlled aircraft or even a commercial jet?

The rules change for different sized things.
 endlesslift
Joined: 12/31/2009
Msg: 124
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 1/16/2010 11:31:58 AM
I mean when you think of it, isn't the wing on that airplane upsidedown?
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 125
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 1/16/2010 12:45:46 PM

I mean when you think of it, isn't the wing on that airplane upsidedown?


smartest thing i have seen you post
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 126
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 1/16/2010 8:13:40 PM
This one has some EXCELLENT views to see some of the things i was talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqW5oOskPIM&feature=related
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 127
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 1/17/2010 11:12:35 AM
Ok I know there are lots of thoughts and theory's on how airplanes fly going back to the kitty hawk days.

Compression is how planes fly.... Study things with a microscope and you can see as an airplane lifts off the ground the mass of the plane pushes against the molacules in the air.... those bang together and get all excited... those molacules then push back which results in lift....

take a piece of cardboard that is ridgid and wave it in the air.... feel that resistance?

That is the result of the same effect on a much smaller scale.

It has nothing at all to do with air flowing over the wing, it has nothing at all to do with creating vortex cousions. It has everything to do with density of the air molacules within the air....

The denser the air the easier it is for a plane to take off and fly.... the thinner the air the longer that plane has to travel down the run way in order to lift off the ground...

People are sometimes afraid to fly when it is raining or foggy out but those are the best days to fly....

Those are the days that a plane can take off the fastest and climb much steeper angles of attack to achive their target altitude because the air is denser during those times...

because that is the case is why it discredits most other theory's even if they seem to work in the designing of air craft....

It is simply energy at its finest... kinetic energy that is...

When those planes push the air molacules kinetic evergy is created and that results in them pushing back. Due to the shape of the planes and the angles of the wings the planes lift off the ground and fly because using the controls they are basically focusing that push back effect in the direction they wish to go....

That is the principle of flight for the laymans form of understanding... which can easily be seen using water which happens to be what our air is made of....

SEE? not that hard to understand once you think about it, and understand a little bit about how things work at the molecular level. The space between molacules is squishy and does not particulaly care to be pushed so it results in that whole for every action there is an equal and oppisate reaction stuff .... Flight is the by product is all.

It does not matter what shape you use at all.... if you can push air molacules they WILL push back.... Yeah that means even a square box could fly.....

but that might put those aerodynamic specialists out of work because the more streamlined they are making things results in higher forces that are required to achive lift....

Don't believe it????? take a look at some of the BIGGEST airplanes in the world... they are some of the most underpowered planes out there because they have the mass required to push due to their NON streamlined shapes.... while some of the nice slick looking smaller planes have to have bigger engines on them than those heavies because they do not deflect enough air to achive lift without the higher speeds and thrust.

There is the principles of flight according to ~DREAMS~....LMAO feel free to test it all you want.. it works and is valid....EVERYTIME
 Island home
Joined: 7/5/2009
Msg: 129
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 1/20/2010 9:21:29 PM

How do airplanes fly?


Extremely well
Compared to a rock
 A1_GOLD
Joined: 5/6/2009
Msg: 130
view profile
History
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 1/21/2010 7:23:04 AM
Have you seen Avatar? Those rocks flew very well.
 endlesslift
Joined: 12/31/2009
Msg: 131
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 1/22/2010 5:26:06 PM
Island,

Thanks funny.

That could have been the answer the thread was looking for after all this talk. :)

Lift
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 134
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 1/23/2010 1:04:55 AM

Extremely well
Compared to a rock


Depends on the shape of the rock... Round rocks are not that great at flying nor are cylinder shaped rocks.... But flat rocks fly pretty well... kinda like they skip across the air. When I refer to rocks I am refering to metals since they come out of the ground as rocks prior to processing. Things like aluminum, titainium, tungstan, etc to me are seen as rocks.

 endlesslift
Joined: 12/31/2009
Msg: 135
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 2/25/2010 1:08:34 PM
To comment on the part about weather or not an airplane can fly upsidedown: http://stetsonflyers.com/Features/2009_edrae/img_2168.jpg
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 137
view profile
History
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 2/25/2010 5:38:57 PM

People are sometimes afraid to fly when it is raining or foggy out but those are the best days to fly....


The best days for highest lift during take-off are cold & dry - air is more dense. Humidity or water vapor is less dense than air.
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 138
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 2/25/2010 6:53:41 PM

The best days for highest lift during take-off are cold & dry - air is more dense. Humidity or water vapor is less dense than air.


That would depend on what type of engines/fuel source/ windspeed required. If you have a prop based plane that may infact be true but if you are utilising pressure/H based engine clear weather is a detriment.

Same goes if your craft requires high wind speeds. You either need to power up to those speeds or use natures wind speeds with rapid responce stabilisations to keep control. Working with nature to achive high lift.

Example.... look at the spruce goose. It was not able to fly very high (in my opinion because he was not able to build it out of the materials he wanted to) because it was not strong enough to withstand the abuse needed.

I know this was not really on topic but just depends on the use... I am going to guess when you are thinking of things you would be thinking about jumbo jets or other passenger craft which is not really the type of plane i was refering to.
 endlesslift
Joined: 12/31/2009
Msg: 139
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 3/1/2010 10:12:22 AM
Actually cold and dry is the best.

Engines work best in those conditions as well. (Not to mention fans and propellers).

This includes the Spruce Goose (which sucks as an airplane), Jumbo jets, small jets, small piston planes such as Cessnas and stunt planes like Caps and the Giles.

Oh, it also includes model planes, paper airplanes and such.
 bestspfx
Joined: 8/31/2011
Msg: 140
view profile
History
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 11/15/2011 4:40:40 PM
Doesn't this just plain work because the air moves faster over the top of the wing creating a lowering of the air pressure pushing down on the wing. That means the air pressure on the underside of the wings is higher resulting in a push up on the wings. So for example there are 14lbs per square inch pushing up on the botton of the wings while only for arguments sake 10lbs per square inch pushing down, effectively resulting in enough per square inch pressure pushing up in the offset to lift the entire weight of the aircraft up. Obviously it is only achieved by the aircraft moving forward to cause air to rush over and around the wing which is why thrust forward is need by the engines. This effectively achieves forward motion needed for travel while the design for the wings creates the conditions for the aircraft to be lifted. And the other reason I have heard for an aircrafts forward motion is basically the same. The ignition and resultant speed of ignited gas particles leaving the back of an aircrafts engine results in a low pressure area right there, the surrounding air in earths atmosphere surrounding the aircraft under 14lbs per square inch rushes in to that low pressure area and effectively pushes the aircraft forward. This argument makes the most sense to me. So it is a simple physics argument harnessing the existing force of 14lbs per square inch of air pressure and putting it to work for us in various ways. This argument seems to make the most sense to me although I am no physicist or expert by any stretch. The mystery to me has always been, if there is one, how do you achieve thrust motion in space if this is the actuality here on earth in an atmosphere under pressure. What are the forces allowing for that with 'no pressure' conditions existing? Is it really that law 'every action results in an equal but opposite reaction'? Thats the one I have a hard time buying. But then again, I don't have a vaacuum handy to do an experiment in! Lol
 cbbull21
Joined: 3/9/2009
Msg: 141
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 11/15/2011 7:26:27 PM
Suction? Pull?
Umm.....no there are no such things.
What you might refer to as suction is fluid flow or a difference in flow/pressure.
(Pulling is just a net force due to 'pushing' asymmetrically. )
I don't think I need to reiterate why the net force is on the side of laminar flow, or propellers working by conservation of momentum.
 Bishopboat
Joined: 9/3/2010
Msg: 142
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 11/18/2011 6:47:47 AM
In a nut shell we have a a leading edge and a tailing edge of a wing. the leading edge of the wing seperates air into a low pressure spot on top and a high pressure spot on the bottom and they meet back together at the tailing edge. This area of high pressure and low pressure means that the denser air molecules on the bottom of the wing want to "mate up" with the "less dense" air molecules on the top of the wing. If enough thrust is applied a greater differnce is created, with enough air flowing on the top and the bottom (air speed) the "lift" effect of the denser air molecules wanting to meet up will cause the aircraft to lift up (flight). That's bacicly flight for retards, not diving into air foils, bernoulli's principle, etc...

I say this as an A&P mechanic...
 Miick
Joined: 7/16/2009
Msg: 143
view profile
History
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 11/20/2011 4:54:07 PM
You have described an aerofoil, Where the air is contorted into creating differential pressures on either of its sides.

Many different forms of aerofoil exist, and all have different implications, advantages, and disadvantages; Flat , flat bottomed, hollow, symetrical, semi-symetrical, and so on.

Most airliners use semi-symetrical, whereas most ultralights use flat bottomed, or flat.

Most Aerobatic aircraft and close to all helicopters use full symetrical.

The deflection of air accounts for around 17% (if i remember correctly) of the lift that an aerofoil produces, most is produced by the differing pressures. Keep in mind that induced airflow is a result of this, yet air will always flow from high pressure to low pressure, so around blade tips and wing tips you have a reverse flow.

The lift formula is

Lift = CL X 1/2p X V^2 X S

where CL represents the shape and angle of the aerofoil, p = the density of the fluid (which changes with altitude, pressure, humidity, and temp.), S is the surface area of the aerofoil, and V^2 is the velocity. A double of airspeed will quadruple lift. The same formula is used to calculate drag except CL is replaced with CD and 'lift' is replaced with 'drag'.

Placing the aerofoil at an angle relative to the oncoming airflow (blade angle), will create your induced flow, up, then downward to follow the contour of the aerofoil, the downward componant of airflow (induced flow) combined with the oncoming airflow (airflow due to velocity) creates a Relative airflow to the blade/wing. The angle between the direction of relative airflow and the chordline (centre line) of the wing creates your angle of attack, which i mentioned earlier. The greater the angle of attack, the more you will be manipulating the differential air pressures. Where the airflow that will meet up with the underside of an angled wing will be slowed down (relative to the wing), its pressure will increase, whilst the air across the top surface of the wing is accelerated along its surface, its pressure is decreased.

All this really comes back to is Bernoulli theorum which has been discussed earlier, and is very easily demonstrated by driving down the motorway and sticking your hand out the window, with your palm vertical, you feel the push of the oncoming wind. Relative to you, you are slowing that wind down to a stop, taking away its kinetic energy. Its total energy will remain unchanged unless you slow down, so as a result its pressure energy increases, which you feel as drag or resistance on your hand.

I say this as a dual rated pilot (helicopters and airplanes), so if there is anything else you are curious about, let me know, similarly if anyone has any corrections to make..

I was gonna get on to the different types of aerofoils and their applications but i cant be bothered now.
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 144
view profile
History
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 11/20/2011 5:28:35 PM
I actually love sticking my hand out the window at speeds past 70mph on a warm day

The drag when you move your hand from the horizontal position is pretty severe

When was younger I did jujitsu and one day a week we used to train and spar at the swimming baths in water up to our necks for reasons that are fairly similar to this in some areas as water makes you more aware of drag and altering a strike technique to reduce the drag as well as improving counterbalance and reducing overbalance

Theres some interesting documentaries about that go into the problems and technical challenges faced when the first jet planes were being produced as the wings were one of the most important and most limiting aspects of early designs

I cant remember much of the tech speak as its not an area I have any specialisation in whatsoever, but for the people who are interested in it searching out those documentaries would probably be pretty interesting and informative
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 145
view profile
History
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 11/20/2011 7:00:51 PM


The mystery to me has always been, if there is one, how do you achieve thrust motion in space if this is the actuality here on earth in an atmosphere under pressure. What are the forces allowing for that with 'no pressure' conditions existing? Is it really that law 'every action results in an equal but opposite reaction'? Thats the one I have a hard time buying. But then again, I don't have a vaacuum handy to do an experiment in! Lol


That's easy. It's exactly what you said, so when you burn some fuel and exhaust it into space, the ship forces the exhaust out and the exhaust forces the ship forwards or whatever direction is needed, equally and opposite to the original force.
Even better, in spaced you don't have to deal with air resistance and the force of gravity is much less, so the forces stopping you are far less as well.
Its actually easier than how planes work, and far more fuel efficient.

I don't know why you think an atmosphere or pressure is required. but if you want to build one just google it, there's some good instructions out there
 Bishopboat
Joined: 9/3/2010
Msg: 146
How do airplanes fly?
Posted: 11/21/2011 12:42:22 PM

You have described an aerofoil, Where the air is contorted into creating differential pressures on either of its sides.


Damn, that's text book!
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  >