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 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 488
Why do men find it hard to be friends?Page 14 of 44    (4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44)
But like I said before, it IS about passing a test. You judge and evaluate these men. The ones who are "just friends"...didn't pass your attraction test. The ones who are "friends first" passed your attraction test, but you further scrutinize and research them to see if any red flags pop up before you go any further.

Men AND women use process of elimination when dating. It's not about trying to stay dating this person at all costs (let's hope), it's about trying to figure out if this person is someone we want to continue learning about based on who they are and if that matches who we are.

So put it this way - OK...it's a test for both of us, I'd just rather we both learn what we need to ASAP, and I'd rather no one was trying to cheat or copy notes to get a higher score. See what I mean?

I don't want a guy doing things to pass the test that go against who he is - or trying to prolong the inevitable. I don't care if someone eliminates me, in fact if they are going to I'd rather they did it sooner. I don't try to prevent it, so I don't appreciate someone else trying to do the same.
 RushLuv
Joined: 4/16/2009
Msg: 489
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 10/12/2010 12:45:47 PM
WIP,

In your case, "friends first" is just fine because you obviously aren't looking to score while "claiming" that you would like to start off as friends. However, some of those people use FF as a cop out/excuse because they don't want to date the opposite sex but don't mind getting the sex or other sexual benefits without having to put a down payment on the cow.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 490
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 10/12/2010 1:35:14 PM
If your mind is in a place where you can take rejection without feeling it's a judgement, evaluation or insult, yeah, you might be able to handle a platonic friend relationship.

IF you would even want one, yes. Which can happen of course. She can have cute friends, you're new in town and/or she is a great social pipeline... but besides that, unfortunately a lot of the time, the guy doesn't emotionally want to walk away - he digs her and takes what he can get.

The guy in the FWB arrangement is in the superior postion, as he's getting his sexual needs met without having to make an emotional investment or commitment. The girl in the LJBF arrangement is in the superior position because she's getting her emotional and intellectual needs met without having to have sex with the guy.

I agree, but with an exception. The first can have more of a gender-reversal or equal role than the latter. Many women don't want a commitment and are "like guys" getting into a FWB -- where they actually just want that and don't want the 'headache' of a relationship. Guys on the other hand, are MUCH less likely to be one-on-one platonic friends with a gal they really didn't know before when she likes him and he doesn't like her.

But in any case, when it comes to the crying foul aspect, yeah, it's the guys being just a (one on one) friend, and the girl just a FWB, when each wanted more. The guy at least in a FWB when HE wanted more has little room to complain -- at least he "got something out of it", where to a woman -- she more wants to be wanted full-circle and that's not enough.

In both cases, the other person is judged and evaluated to be "not good enough" for anything other than the arrangement.

True, but FWB is better -- but obviously less appreciated by a gal who wants more when the guy doesn't. One-on-one Just-Friends isn't even getting that! There is Zero consolation prize when it comes to her directly! :)

For those people who would like to be "friends first," I would assume that means NO DATING.

As I later stated in that post, which puts it more clear -- there's no INTENTION OF DATING *IF* you truly are going to be, as you say, "Strictly Platonic".

If you're pre-emptively strictly platonic, it means you have ZERO intentions of even potentially Dating. Zer-oh. If you pre-emptively tell someone you just want to be friends (= strictly platonic), that means you have zero intentions of even potentially dating them at any point in the foreseeable future.

That's why "Friends First" is an oddball term. The "first" directly means there IS intentions of potentially dating, because it means it's a pre-cursor to something more than friends... but that goes against anything Strictly Platonic, except maybe in present-being-physical-action. Some people just mean "taking it slow, no expectations to actually date", but yes, they are more than friends and not -strictly- platonic.

Others, mean it differently, as you say it, which is REALLY weird for a **DATING** site. Being strictly platonic.

Common separate reasons for playing the Friends-First game (yes, it is a game):
a) They like the term because others use it, feels "comfortable", and really just mean taking it slow and not rushing into being a 'couple' and just hanging out.

b) They use it as an escape-hatch, or like running "the option" in football. If they like them, then yeah, the first meeting will certainly be more than friends, at least on their end. They can drag it out, get doses of attention, possibly have their bills paid for, the whole nine yards, and not have to worry about not being interested in them... because hey, we're JUST friends, right? He can't complain if we've hung out multiple times but this whole time I wasn't interested! I throw the ball one way if I'm interested, or continue on if I feel like it and not worry about leading anyone on -- because we're just friends! Perfect! :)

c) They try to RE-CREATE on a Dating Site what they found to be good In Real Life. They look back on stable, good relationships they've had and others have had.... which commonly is people they knew before... someone they considered a friend. Maybe met them in circles of friends... was an acquaintance... talked when everyone went out together... had sexual tension... and finally someone made a move, got asked out, and the rest is history. PROBLEM with this is that jumping on a DATING site to re-create this ruins it and people have to put on their acting glasses. You can't pre-emptively create this on a dating site without suspending parts of obvious reality. It's really weird. There's already intentions of Dating, so you can't just be friends to kick it off.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 492
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 10/12/2010 6:39:11 PM
Good Lord. Do you think that women need friends to "validate their attractiveness"?

I think he was referring to only the situation where a gal rejects a guy but decides to keep him around as a one-on-one friend, fully knowing that he does wants her... not any situation where a gal merely has a "guy friend" (which could mean just a guy who's not too much more than acquaintance or someone where there never has been any sexual tension on either side, etc).
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 493
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 10/13/2010 11:07:34 AM
I don't want a guy doing things to pass the test that go against who he is - or trying to prolong the inevitable.

I think too many guys do this because they still have one foot stuck in "old-school" courtship that "wholesome people" (a buddy's gf, some women on forums, Mr Nice Guy, etc) preach.

They go out of their way to prove themselves. Some women demand this passively (and once in a while aggressively), and it doesn't take much of that preaching in society to push an average Joe into tripping over his own feet to prove-prove-prove himself to a gal he likes. It's the classic mistake of Mr Nice Guy.

It seems like everybody tries to put their best foot forward--accentuate the positive, de-emphasize the negative about themselves. You can be "Citizen of the Year" for three or four dates. That's the game, and that's why looks and money are still the 800lb gorillas in the room because it's much harder to be deceptive about those qualities.

Very very true. It's very easy to be deceptive about one's tastes and personality characteristics.... but those are much harder... you have to actually look the part and put your money where your mouth would be.

And I think too many people (and you have to expect it to commonly happen) over-step their boundaries when taking their best-foot-forward & de-emphasizing the negatives, and take it over the top. One can put their best foot forward in a reasonable manner with zero deception or illusion, but a lot of people just don't know when to stop.

I imagine girls have to deal with the guy being like that more than vice versa, in classic guy-approaches-girl-and-gets-date situations, but I can tell ya -- many women at least to a notable degree, do it too, out of image-consciousness even if it's not like the guy to directly try and romantically impress the girl.
 anogamesgirl1
Joined: 12/12/2007
Msg: 494
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 10/13/2010 11:20:41 AM
Ummmm.....because we have something they want and it's more than friendship? If they want a 'friend', they'll hang out with someone they have something in common with (slapping upside the head, playing rough manly games, guzzling beers, farting). I'm sure you get what I'm saying.
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 495
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 10/13/2010 12:00:05 PM
Again, as I've asked women before on this board...if a guy asks you out, he wants to eventually see you naked and have sex with you. If you reject him, fine...but why would you want to continue to hang around and get closer to a guy who you now KNOW wants to eventually see you naked and have sex with you? Now you might have known this guy for a while, and there may be more involved with the relationship as far as friendship goes, but usually it's little more than an ego stroke, and a validation of attractiveness.


It can also be a way for a woman to get a man to "do" favours for her. I sure as hell don't want a guy around who I don't want to sleep with hanging around me with those underlying currents of "I want to sleep with you" coming off him. I did it once years ago and didn't like how I felt. I think it's mean and selfish.


I get your point. I'd prefer that everybody be honest, upfront and themselves when you meet them, but that's just not what happens. It seems like everybody tries to put their best foot forward--accentuate the positive, de-emphasize the negative about themselves. You can be "Citizen of the Year" for three or four dates. That's the game, and that's why looks and money are still the 800lb gorillas in the room because it's much harder to be deceptive about those qualities.


For me, the above means something different. Since I always behave with more class when in public, why would a date be any different?

What I link this to is more of the not being afraid to speak out about what others might deem flaws, nor will I pretend to like certain things just to keep on dating someone. In conversation I strive to be myself. I've been rejected several times because of this and that's just the way it goes. Men want us to be real right? LOL.

Far too many men will not speak up about what they like or do not like for fear of rejection. I find this weak and well, retarded. I'm gonna find out eventually and it WILL be sooner than they think. Too many men try to force a connection and comfort level. Most women end up sleeping with a man because they have a comfort level with him (among other things).
 grizzelda
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 496
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History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 10/13/2010 12:31:56 PM
Again, as I've asked women before on this board...if a guy asks you out, he wants to eventually see you naked and have sex with you. If you reject him, fine...but why would you want to continue to hang around and get closer to a guy who you now KNOW wants to eventually see you naked and have sex with you? Now you might have known this guy for a while, and there may be more involved with the relationship as far as friendship goes, but usually it's little more than an ego stroke, and a validation of attractiveness.


So what you are saying is that if there is a man that I think is intelligent, funny and a genuinely decent person to hang around with, unless I am prepared to sleep with him, I should remove this individual from my life? That the only possible reason a woman would want to keep contact with a good person in a friendly capacity would be as an ego stroke? What I am hearing here is that men are incapable of seeing women as anything other than in a sexual context or that they have nothing to offer other than sex. That I refuse to believe.

However what I do believe is that the men that do follow this thought process do it more from a "cutting the nose off to spite the face" position in order to justify their desire to be inflexible. It almost seems a bit like having a temper tantrum if they dont get what they want.


It can also be a way for a woman to get a man to "do" favours for her. I sure as hell don't want a guy around who I don't want to sleep with hanging around me with those underlying currents of "I want to sleep with you" coming off him. I did it once years ago and didn't like how I felt. I think it's mean and selfish.


If a person is given the truth about whether or not there is any chance for a romantic relationship, and they seemingly agree to the offered friendship. How is that woman being mean? If he continues to hold on to the hope that there is a chance despite being told differently, that is on him, not on her. Again why is it up to the woman to be the one that has to adjust her behavior because a man cannot or will not accept the reality of the situation? I know that I am capable of accepting that there are going to be things that I dont like or that things are not going to go the way I want them and manage to get on with my life, are you suggesting that men are incapable of this?
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 497
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 10/13/2010 12:53:50 PM

I get your point. I'd prefer that everybody be honest, upfront and themselves when you meet them, but that's just not what happens. It seems like everybody tries to put their best foot forward--accentuate the positive, de-emphasize the negative about themselves. You can be "Citizen of the Year" for three or four dates. That's the game, and that's why looks and money are still the 800lb gorillas in the room because it's much harder to be deceptive about those qualities.

It happens a lot, and frankly I'm not a fan of it. I want to know who I'm dealing with when the act drops. Giving a guy a casual hang out friends before dating context usually gets me that information, a little sooner than I'd get it if he were putting on an act - which I generally catch before he realizes it anyway.

I think too many guys do this because they still have one foot stuck in "old-school" courtship that "wholesome people" (a buddy's gf, some women on forums, Mr Nice Guy, etc) preach.

Yep. And don't get me wrong, some women eat that crap up.

They go out of their way to prove themselves. Some women demand this passively (and once in a while aggressively), and it doesn't take much of that preaching in society to push an average Joe into tripping over his own feet to prove-prove-prove himself to a gal he likes. It's the classic mistake of Mr Nice Guy.

True, which is why I try to get them out of that mentality. In fact, even a guy who IS genuine and a good match will nauseate me with a lot of grand gestures he's not even sure I will appreciate. It's just a turn off for me.

Very very true. It's very easy to be deceptive about one's tastes and personality characteristics.... but those are much harder... you have to actually look the part and put your money where your mouth would be.

And I think too many people (and you have to expect it to commonly happen) over-step their boundaries when taking their best-foot-forward & deemphasizing the negatives, and take it over the top. One can put their best foot forward in a reasonable manner with zero deception or illusion, but a lot of people just don't know when to stop.

I imagine girls have to deal with the guy being like that more than vice-versa, in classic guy-approaches-girl-and-gets-date situations, but I can tell ya -- many women at least to a notable degree, do it too, out of image-consciousness even if it's not like the guy to directly try and romantically impress the girl.

I know women do this too, and it's just as gross to watch my friends do this. If you're going to date someone seriously, they WILL find out who you are, or they'll date you for who you're not. Neither is a great recipe for a relationship in the long run.

For me, the above means something different. Since I always behave with more class when in public, why would a date be any different?

What I link this to is more of the not being afraid to speak out about what others might deem flaws, nor will I pretend to like certain things just to keep on dating someone. In conversation I strive to be myself. I've been rejected several times because of this and that's just the way it goes. Men want us to be real right? LOL.

Far too many men will not speak up about what they like or do not like for fear of rejection. I find this weak and well, retarded. I'm gonna find out eventually and it WILL be sooner than they think. Too many men try to force a connection and comfort level. Most women end up sleeping with a man because they have a comfort level with him (among other things).

Exactly, HappyBunny8 - right on the money, that's what I'm talking about.
 RushLuv
Joined: 4/16/2009
Msg: 498
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 10/13/2010 1:08:13 PM
CR,

Perhaps I shouldn't have said strictly platonic but things should be left on a friendly level if people want to be friends first. But I think you're missing the point. If these people want to be FF, then wouldn't it be wise for them NOT to be trying to have sex with the person? Or being all touchy feely because after all, they DO want to start off as being a friend.
 grizzelda
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 499
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 10/14/2010 9:54:09 AM

It's not just "a man" we're talking about. It's "a man who you rejected romantically." Nobody's saying you should be enemies. Nobody's saying you shouldn't be civil or polite. Nobody's saying you should even remove that person from your life. I'm just asking...
Why would you want to get CLOSER to a guy you know wants more than you're prepared to offer? IMHO, it's an ego stroke and validation of attractiveness.


Perhaps I learned at an early age that I am not going to always get what I want, accepted that, and discovered that I have the emotional maturity to see someone in more than one aspect and understand that this individual may have other qualities that would also enrich my life, not just the romantic potential. Frankly I guess at the end of the day, the LBF really could function as a sort of screening tool to rule out the men that are emotionally incapable of growth when it comes to emotional issues. Strange isnt it that the person who you are persuing, who you obviously feel is special and has the type of qualities that you want to be around, once they indicate that there is no romantic interest, all of a sudden all of those things evaporate? To me, that indicates that there really wasnt too much there to begin with other than a sexual component, and if that is all that is there, that relationship probably wouldnt survive too long anyways.
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 500
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 10/14/2010 10:07:17 AM
So what you are saying is that if there is a man that I think is intelligent, funny and a genuinely decent person to hang around with, unless I am prepared to sleep with him, I should remove this individual from my life? That the only possible reason a woman would want to keep contact with a good person in a friendly capacity would be as an ego stroke? What I am hearing here is that men are incapable of seeing women as anything other than in a sexual context or that they have nothing to offer other than sex. That I refuse to believe.


I don't think that is what they are saying. You can suggest being friends with a man, but I would be upfront. Tell him your view is that men and women can be friends and that you will never sleep with him, but want to be his friend. You MUST accept his response. He may agree and feel the same, he may agree in secret hopes of banging you, or he may refuse and tell you his outlook. Out of these scenarios I listed, I like the 1st or 3rd guy best. I like upfront people and can take rejection and truth like a trooper. Some men have no problem being friends with women; others do it because it is the "fashion" or some silly thing like that. Others do it to widen their circle of women friends and possibly meet someone that will want to be more than friends. Most times, a man will dump the friend who is a girl once he finds that person.

That is another thing that most people cannot handle today. The fact that their friends go off and have a life with their partner. Big deal. That is how life generally works folks. Too many people only worry about themselves and can't see beyond that.

I had one man where we both broke it off after a few dates (no sex), but he asked to remain friends. I was very leery as I don't do this often. So I agreed because I really had no interest in seeing him romantically. So one night, we go out to the pub with a group and he and I take the bus home. We sit together side by side and I CAN feel his uncomfortable vibe coming off him big time when he is touching me. Just friends eh? Uh huh. All to say I won't be encouraging any outings alone together.

If you were to really pay attention to people's behavior, this wouldn't be a mystery to some.


If a person is given the truth about whether or not there is any chance for a romantic relationship, and they seemingly agree to the offered friendship. How is that woman being mean? If he continues to hold on to the hope that there is a chance despite being told differently, that is on him, not on her. Again why is it up to the woman to be the one that has to adjust her behavior because a man cannot or will not accept the reality of the situation?


Definitely, I agree. However, you must know that most folks just agree out of politeness? Also, alot of folks say "let's be friends" to lessen the rejection blow. This is where the problem begins. Most people are puzzies when it comes to rejection.

Also, as confident realist pointed out; in real life the friends situation may work differently than online as any man who approaches you online or in real life expressing interest obviously want to fack you eventually. I mean, c'mon. The friends situation works when you meet people in a large group situation - at least that is what I have observed.

Now, since I often discuss issues like this with the men I date, I find out early their stance on the friends thing and on several other things. It's not that hard to find things out from people. You just gotta know how to talk LOL.
 grizzelda
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 501
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History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 10/14/2010 10:42:51 AM
I understand what you are saying happybunny and I think that essentially this is really a problem that is condusive to a group dynamic, where 1 male in the group has an attraction to another female in the group and when there is no reciprocation of the romantic interest, she will want to remain friends with him because it will affect the whole group dynamic. It really has a ring or retaliation to it rather than a man needing a small period of adjustment for his feelings. Hence the accusations of ego stroking, using the male, etc. To me it says more about the male in question than the woman. This is where I really struggle with this concept that men cannot be friends with a woman they have an interest in because the implication is that the man will never move on from the attraction to this woman hence the inability be a friend to that woman.
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 502
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 10/14/2010 5:10:57 PM

They are often her best male friend. Very close, and trusted.


Not the case here. My best friend is and always will be a woman. The only man that should have that place as well is my partner.

I don't keep friends, male or female who don't respect boundaries. As someone who often listens rather than talks in groups at first, I have seen and heard many of the things you describe; however not had it happen to me - I don't allow it to get that far.

The only somewhat close male friends I have, I have known for many many years and not one of them has ever done anything you describe, nor have I ever done anything like that to them. It's why we remain friends even when coupled off and why their wives/GF's also like to hang out with me and consider me a friend as well.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 504
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/21/2010 9:16:05 PM
Perhaps I shouldn't have said strictly platonic but things should be left on a friendly level if people want to be friends first.

Platonic is pretty much an on-off switch. Platonic = just friends. Putting a spin on that with "sorta" would get someone accused of "playing games" wouldn't it? "I just want to be friends. Sorta." One could think "Hmmm, do they mean FWB? Playing house as a couple on a date, but not really? A pretend game that we're just friends, but really we obviously can't be because we picked each other out of a lineup on Dating site? Why not just say take things slow on expectations and actions had?"

Going out on a first date "friends first" as a disclaimer in an email to a guy on a dating site is the same as approaching a gal at the bar, having some convo, getting her #, then she saying "I want to be friends first". What that means is "I'm not that interested in you, but I could be. I'm giving you a CHANCE. I'm the panel of judges, you're the contestant." Statistically a WASTE of time... unless she's an awesome awesome catch that would normally never give you the time of day and you're game to throw down field into double coverage.

If these people want to be FF, then wouldn't it be wise for them NOT to be trying to have sex with the person?

Even without the FF game, one may not be trying to have sex with them literally right off the bat. Sex(ual relations) will come in due time if there's mutual sexual/romantic interest. Making things PLATONIC on a "sorta" scale isn't going to prevent a guy from making a move. It can rightfully scare him off, and if it doesn't, with the understanding it's not stricly-platonic, it won't stop him from making a move. It just adds confusion to the whole thing.

So what you are saying is that if there is a man that I think is intelligent, funny and a genuinely decent person to hang around with, unless I am prepared to sleep with him, I should remove this individual from my life?

Yep, if all you know him from is via the dating circuit, absolutely. Now, you worded it in a bit of an unfair way... "prepared" to sleep with him? How about sexually attracted to him -- which means you would LIKE to sleep with them on the raw desire level -- but won't want to in terms of taking action until you're comfortable with him (which could be a matter of hours, days, or weeks). But it requires the desire to be there. It's called sexual attraction. Don't show up for a speed-dating event looking to find a male-friend... nor go to a dating website looking for one either.

ow that I'm older, its like I wasted my time being everyone's friend when I should have cut my ties and found someone that wanted to date me.

Yep. If you meet a gal via the dating circuit or from chasing a crush, don't be her friend thinking that you're just stocking a "chance" on the shelf. Even though theoretically that is true, it's to a very insignificant degree, and will take up your time.

Girls should not take a straight guy who likes her and try to turn him into the equivalent of a gay male friend. It doesn't work that way.
 Fierysunlvr
Joined: 1/14/2010
Msg: 505
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History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/22/2010 7:27:05 AM
There's currently another thread on this subject as well. I've responded to that thread as well because I'm equally frusterated.

I am open to having a relationship, but relationships have to develop. I cannot have a relationship with someone who upon meeting me says "let's have a relationship."
or who says "if you're not in this for long term, let me know" That kind of talk smells of desperation.

Why not meet someone and just get to know them and see if you want to be with them, instead of trying to create something out of nothing with a stranger.
 RobertKoi
Joined: 11/9/2008
Msg: 506
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/22/2010 9:19:48 AM
It's not about creating something out of nothing with a stranger. It's about what you're after. Are you looking for friends of the opp. gender on a dating site when you're single? Why should you unless you're looking for a fu|k buddy. Of course it takes time to get know a person but you can't just put that process on autopilot either.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 507
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/22/2010 11:49:19 AM
It's not about creating something out of nothing with a stranger. It's about what you're after.

I agree with the first part, but not the 2nd part. The problem with the 2nd part is that everyone's not (nor should they be obliged to be) on a mission for ONE dating-related situation only with everyone of the opposite-sex. It varies with the person they're engaging with, and that's not going to be admitted (nor should it be obliged to be admitted) that "I'm not interested in a relationship with YOU, but I'd be game to hang out with you once in a while, while we're both single...". In other words, someone can be (very) open to one thing, but not the other -- with a particular person. It's not LTR-or-bust with everyone... or FWB-or-bust with everyone. People can be up for different situations with different people.

A perfect example of this is the FF game. A typical gal who likes the FF game isn't going to want to necessarily go down that route with a hot, intelligent guy, who's a catch they would rarely ever have a chance with... where Avg Joe who appears to be decent on paper for a relationship -- oh, heck yeah -- just FF (on the fence of being 'that interested' in him).

I am open to having a relationship, but relationships have to develop. I cannot have a relationship with someone who upon meeting me says "let's have a relationship."

It's not a black & white situation, though. You don't go from being Platonic to being smack-dab into a relationship. There's the Pre-Dating phase, ie the getting-to-know-ya phase where you merely go out on dates. You wouldn't respond to a gal-pal while at a bar, "Oh, that guy's John. Him and I are dating," just because you went out on a blind date several days ago. "We are Dating" indicates something established there.

0. Friends (Platonic; sexual tension at the most; if announced, an understanding there's no romantic interest)

1. Pre-Dating Phase (More than Friends, Getting to Know Ya; Seeing them again isn't a given; plans have to be made; you go out on dates to get to know each other, but there's no consistency established)

2. Dating Phase (You're an item, out of the consistency of seeing each other that's been established. You don't mesh lives, but your free-time lives to a good extent; no plans are needed, it's a given that you'll see them again and within a short order of time)

3. Relationship (You mesh lives; you've been DatING for quite some time; you ARE "boyfriend/girlfriend" in all contexts)

Not jumping into a relationship does NOT require going from point 0 to point 3. Yes, some people, even some guys, want to jump into a relationship when they really dig you... but not jumping into a relationship doesn't at all require being just Friends -- that's stupid.

Why not meet someone and just get to know them and see if you want to be with them, instead of trying to create something out of nothing with a stranger.

Yes, it's the getting to know you phase ... the pre-season of actual DatING someone. No need to try and fool oneself into thinking you're just friends. A friendship develops anyway, whether one's playing the FF Game, or going toward Dating.

People like the FF game because they look at other non-set-up situations, where they were friends with someone of the opp-sex (friends of friends), and ended up bantering, talking, etc., and got to know them that route THEN making a move -toward- Dating. But that still doesn't mean you insta-relationship it.

The problem is, trying to "re-create" that on a Dating site is not a thoughtful idea. Then you're just "playing house". You can't be just friends when you each picked each other out of a Dating lineup.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 508
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/22/2010 1:36:49 PM
I am open to having a relationship, but relationships have to develop.

I think every relationship I've ever been in has ``developed'' around the second date. I'd say it takes time for a relationship to ``undevelop,'' rather than develop. If you meet someone and you are not attracted to that person, being friends first is unlikely to lead to a relationship. If you are open to a relationship and you meet someone to whom you are attracted, you aren't waiting for a relationship to develop. You're waiting to see if there is anything you don't like enough about the person to stop you from pursuing the relationship.

Basically, ``friends first'' is just a variation of the game ``hard to get'' for risk averse women. As long as you're friends, you can avoid getting hurt for as long as you can stall on deciding whether or not to pursue a relationship with someone to whom you are physically attracted and you get an easy out if you decide to not pursue a relationship with a guy, since you're ``just friends.''

Yes, some people, even some guys, want to jump into a relationship when they really dig you... but not jumping into a relationship doesn't at all require being just Friends -- that's stupid.

Jumping in to the fire and getting burned isn't all bad. I've had a relationship or three that went down in flames, but was a fun rollercoaster ride while it lasted. I'd rather have the excitement of jumping in and taking a chance of going down in flames than be afraid of getting burned and never get close to the fire.
 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 509
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/22/2010 5:26:59 PM

Girls should not take a straight guy who likes her and try to turn him into the equivalent of a gay male friend. It doesn't work that way.


Well, there IS a caveat on that one...

.... when the guy involved is young and hasn't learned what women mean when they say "... let's be friends... I don't think of you that way.... you're like a brother to me... you'll make some woman very happy one day.... blaugh, blaugh, blau-diddy-fvcking-blaugh...."

.... or after the fifteenth time she's whined about some new guy banging her then treating her like shit.

:puking:

 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 510
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/22/2010 8:51:48 PM
Jumping in to the fire and getting burned isn't all bad. I've had a relationship or three that went down in flames, but was a fun rollercoaster ride while it lasted. I'd rather have the excitement of jumping in and taking a chance of going down in flames than be afraid of getting burned and never get close to the fire.

Well, those aren't the only options though (going down in flames vs no burn marks). And I think that was my original point... you don't play house as "Friends" to avoid being hurt to avoid the fire, because the only other option would be jumping into a Relationship. There are in-betweens, where you are more than friends... you're getting to know each other, and *IF* you both hit it off super quick, you won't want to pursue anyone else if you know the feeling's mutual like that anyway.

I don't think being in a Relationship is the (only) way to give it that rush. But I think I know what you're saying -- not taking it slow, but going fast on all ends, right? I could see doing so physically, but emotionally? Ehh, not so much. Again, you may do that because you can't help it -- she's totally into you, you're totally into her -- okay. But that doesn't mean you see each other every day and have dinner at their parents' and all that. That would be something that I'd find to be very reactionary and unnecessary. I wouldn't find it to be a 'thrill' -- although one's feeling on that is just their own personal view. But I'd definitely feel a thrill having things develop -- with the comfort of not meshing lives after day 1, 2, or 3.

Anyway, my point is -- to avoid things going too fast, you don't need to be "just friends first" (which is an oxymoron with the term 'first' in there and meeting from a Dating site)... you can see each other on a lite or moderate level without jumping into things. You can still get "burned" -- but you avoid potential complications.
 SpecificTruths
Joined: 9/19/2009
Msg: 511
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/22/2010 9:26:31 PM
Why do we find it "hard?"
Gawd, that question sounds like whining already...

In any relationship with women, they make the rules, men play along. If they don't, they get tossed aside.

If you're a "platonic" friend, you are obligated to listen to "man troubles" and hear all about that "b!tch at work." After all of your "yeah, uh-huh, right, sure" babbling, you're a "great friend" because you put up with hours of dribbling.

Then, by some craziness when you get a girlfriend (basically like above minus man troubles - some other friend gets to listen to her issues with you - plus sex) this so called "great friend" will hardly talk to you anymore.

No, ladies, not ALL of you are like this and maybe it's my age and/or the company I keep. But I have to admit, when I hear women say that it's much easier to be friends with a guy, I have to question the ways of the world.
 FunkTheMillenium
Joined: 7/11/2010
Msg: 512
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/22/2010 10:15:21 PM
^^^^ interesting response from a young guy but this is how most men are, so for women to think most of their male friends are gay is quite insane. what else are guys going to want to get out of u besides friendship?

i've never trusted male friends with my ex's and it was proven that they can't be trusted. alot of guys will bang any girl they get the first chance with, attractive or not.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 513
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/22/2010 11:06:53 PM

I don't think being in a Relationship is the (only) way to give it that rush.

There's the ``sex for lust'' rush, but that's a different sort of rush.

But I think I know what you're saying -- not taking it slow, but going fast on all ends, right? I could see doing so physically, but emotionally?

The physical part I could get for $200-$300/hour with a phone call and without the hassle that goes along with a date. The physical part just wasn't enough.

But that doesn't mean you see each other every day and have dinner at their parents' and all that.

I've never been in a relationship with someone who didn't want to see me every day, so that's the level of interest I'm used to. On the first date, both parties will know if the chemistry is there or not. If it is, I can't see the point of going slow. If it isn't, I can't see the point of a second date. I also don't understand why dinner with parents is a big deal. It's like having dinner with anyone else I don't know. Since I know which forks to use, I have good table manners and I know how to listen and ask intelligent questions, I've never worried that I'd make a bad impression. (The only time I did make a bad impression, I did it on purpose.) Relationships either work out or they don't, so I can't see any reason to pretend you're just friends if you hit it off.

but you avoid potential complications.

Like what?

In any relationship with women, they make the rules, men play along.

Not exactly. The person with the most options makes the rules. That generally turns out to be women only because most guys will jump through hoops to get laid. If you have options for getting laid, you can't be manipulated with sex.




 SpecificTruths
Joined: 9/19/2009
Msg: 514
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/23/2010 6:50:51 AM

Not exactly. The person with the most options makes the rules. That generally turns out to be women only because most guys will jump through hoops to get laid. If you have options for getting laid, you can't be manipulated with sex.

I may have confused, but I was not referring to sex or sexual situations/innuendos. I'm talking about just talking, activities, and other things people do with friends. "She" makes all the rules and talks so much as to steer the conversation to her end. Discussing her man troubles, then saying "he" is a great friend for listening.
But then, when "he" gets a girlfriend "she" seems to disconnect herself, revealing her true colors.
With girls I've been friends with since elementary/high school, this isn't a problem.

But, since it's me who's the common denominator, the answer is probably staring back at me from the mirror and I haven't heard it yet.
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