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 JRodriguez81
Joined: 2/24/2010
Msg: 526
Why do men find it hard to be friends?Page 16 of 44    (4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44)
Why do men find it hard to be just friends....funny thing though, Ive met alot of women out there that find it equally just as hard to be JUST friends as well.
 namrael
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 527
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/24/2010 5:24:56 AM

"I have many male friends with whom I am not at all interested in being sexual with. Some of those are interested in being sexual with me, but we've talked about it and they know what my boundaries are. Regardless of one-sided interest, they are my friends. "
-----------
They're "friends" on YOUR terms.


Wait, so my telling them that I'm not interested in f*cking them means that I've set the terms of our friendship? What happened to consenting adults being able to know what works for them and what they're willing to do? They're not pining away for me, and they're grown-ups who are perfectly capable of saying, "I don't think I'm able to be just friends with you, so if that's what you're looking for with me, we may need to part ways." You're belittling their ability to decide whether they're okay with our friendship, which they clearly are or they wouldn't be friends with me.

Again: Tell me how one-sided sexual interest means that there can't be an actual friendship as well. Not the "everybody knows why" stuff--a real, actual reason that applies to responsible and emotionally mature adults.

@jco:

I have consistently upheld both in forums and IRL that men an women can be friends, lovers, BF/GF, husband/wives or all of the above... and I am a big proponent of genuine friendships..... your posts on the other hand suggest a very tainted view of relationships in general and especially when sexual in nature.


Same here. I'm totally with you on this one.
 RobertKoi
Joined: 11/9/2008
Msg: 529
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/24/2010 7:20:09 AM
What some people (women in particular - at least in public) don't get through their head is that if there's attraction why would ANY guy want to be friends and nothing but friends with a woman he not only wants to have sex with, but also start a relationship with? Even if it's "only" sex that's bad ENOUGH, okay? It's even worse when she KNOWS it as someone was very open about a few posts earlier. It doesn't take much brains for a woman to figure out that if she'd give him the "okay signal" he'd be all over her even after months of kissing her a$$ so to speak. What kind of denial or blindness she chooses to live under as a single is her problem, but if there's a boyfriend involved who doesn't quite fancy the idea that her so called male "friends" would bang her brains out if given the chance, then it's not only her responsibility to drop them out of her life but also in respect for him. All this makes perfect sense and I wouldn't call a guy who feels about it that way controlling one bit. Anybody with some self respect would give her the chance to get rid of them or he walks.
 SpecificTruths
Joined: 9/19/2009
Msg: 530
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/24/2010 7:21:48 AM

funny thing though, Ive met alot of women out there that find it equally just as hard to be JUST friends as well.

 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 531
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/24/2010 9:26:00 AM

Additionally, I have many male friends with whom I am not at all interested in being sexual with.

I think that statement is very telling. What you call friends are what I'd call acquaintences or even ``someone I know.'' I've had this discussion with my fiancee, who 10 zillion ``friend's'' phone numbers stored in her phone. Every person she knows well enough to have talked to on the phone once is a friend. So yeah, she has lots of ``male friends'' but once you toss out the people she met 5 years ago and calls for 5 minutes once in a blue moon, she doesn't have any male friends - although she would strongly disagree with me. I've also asked how many of those guys would sleep with her if she gave them the opportunity and apparently that would be all of them but the ones who are gay. She thinks of them as friends because she wouldn't sleep with them (and she talks to them every so often when the planets align just right).

By contrast, my best friend and I talk almost every day and have done so for almost 3 years. If I needed something, she would drop what she was doing to help me (and vice-versa). We couldn't possibly be that close if either of us had some sexual interest in the other.

That one-sided sexual interest doesn't change the quality of the non-sexual connection that we have.

I disagree. From your perspective, you're getting what you want out of the relationship. Your friends who are sexually interested in you are not getting what they want. They are only your ``friends'' because they think you might change your mind. Why would anyone be friends with a person when the relationship is one sided and one person is not getting what he/she wants out of the relationship (apart from people who are needy or who aren't really friends, but merely people you know and chit-chat with occassionally)? I consider my friendship valuable, so for me to form that kind of relationship with someone, it has to be a two-way street. If I'm sexually interested in a woman, the price of my friendship is her sexual interest in me. I don't need friends who only call me when they need something from me.
 FunkTheMillenium
Joined: 7/11/2010
Msg: 532
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/24/2010 1:22:15 PM
^^^^ good way to put it.

guys would be the same but alot don't have alot of "women" friends hanging around who would want alot more than friendship so its an order most men don't usually fit into.
 1234deleted1234
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 533
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/24/2010 1:37:52 PM
I will say that if most my female friends, including the one I used to spoon with, ever wanted to have have sex I would have... my point is/was that just because I WOULD doesn't mean that the only reason I'm their friend is for that opportunity!
Some here have suggested that men PHYSICALLY attracted to a woman can't be friends. If they ARE then he's just waiting for a chance to fvck her.

I'm simply saying that if the guy is a TRUE friend then that's not the case! I'll admit that many times there are guys who are "The Friend", otherwise known as the c@ckblock, the waiting in the wings guy, the wuss who takes advantage when she's down type and the sabateur.

Incidentally I HAVE had sex with many of my female friends... some only once...we're still friends.
Probably the reason it happened was because I WASN'T hanging around just for that like they could tell some other friends were... when they wanted some, they came to me... confident that there'd be no loss of friendship and no post coital drama.
 namrael
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 534
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/24/2010 2:02:50 PM
@RobertKoi:

It doesn't take much brains for a woman to figure out that if she'd give him the "okay signal" he'd be all over her even after months of kissing her a$$ so to speak.


There are two problems with your assumptions. First, you assume that the only reason a guy who's attracted to someone would be friends with her is because he hopes to have sex and/or a relationship with her. What if he just enjoys her company, and happens to be attracted to her on top of that?

Secondly, you're assuming all these guys are simply kissing *ss. Perhaps your friends are of a lower caliber than mine, but my male friends, even those who've told me they find me attractive, aren't just kissing my *ss; they're full-fledged people who are friends of mine. They're fully capable of saying no to me and doing their own things. They're not weak-willed suckers.

@abelian:


Additionally, I have many male friends with whom I am not at all interested in being sexual with.


I think that statement is very telling. What you call friends are what I'd call acquaintences or even ``someone I know.''


I'm a bit confused as to why you'd assume that all my male friends are simply acquaintances, and not active friends of mine.


If I'm sexually interested in a woman, the price of my friendship is her sexual interest in me. I don't need friends who only call me when they need something from me.


I have no idea why you're assuming that I'm using them, or calling them when I need something from them. Typically, I'll call my male friends when I want their company. That's it. If they only want my friendship in exchange for sexual interest, they would be perfectly capable of saying so, and we wouldn't be friends (not least because I find a "f*ck me or I don't want to know you at all" attitude rather repulsive).

How do I know that some of my male friends are sexually interested in me? Because they're grown-up enough to flat-out tell me and start a conversation about it. They tell me where they stand, I tell them where I stand, we make sure everyone's good with it, and we go from there. You know, like responsible, mature grown-ups.

@jco:

Incidentally I HAVE had sex with many of my female friends... some only once...we're still friends.
Probably the reason it happened was because I WASN'T hanging around just for that like they could tell some other friends were... when they wanted some, they came to me... confident that there'd be no loss of friendship and no post coital drama.


These are the types of male friends I tend to have as well. Good on you for being interested in women as actual people, and not just as commodities!
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 535
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/24/2010 3:08:27 PM
I'm a bit confused as to why you'd assume that all my male friends are simply acquaintances, and not active friends of mine.

I assume that anytime anyone tells me he/she has ``lots of friends.'' There simply is not enough time in a day to have more than a few friends and perhaps lots of acquaintences.

If they only want my friendship in exchange for sexual interest, they would be perfectly capable of saying so, and we wouldn't be friends (not least because I find a "f*ck me or I don't want to know you at all" attitude rather repulsive).

That's rather egotistical. I could just as easily turn that around and say I find a ``I want your company, but not enough to have sex with you,'' to be no less repulsive. Are you telling me is that it's okay for me to meet a woman because I find her sexually appealing, but it's repulsive for me to not care if she's intellectually interesting if she doesn't find me sexually appealing?

How do I know that some of my male friends are sexually interested in me? Because they're grown-up enough to flat-out tell me and start a conversation about it. They tell me where they stand, I tell them where I stand, we make sure everyone's good with it, and we go from there. You know, like responsible, mature grown-ups.

I'm not sure where that came from. I have no difficulty with that sort of ``grown up talk.'' I'm just picky when choosing my friends.
 RobertKoi
Joined: 11/9/2008
Msg: 536
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/24/2010 3:09:18 PM
Namrael: "That one-sided sexual interest doesn't change the quality of the non-sexual connection that we have."

Abelian: "I disagree. From your perspective, you're getting what you want out of the relationship. Your friends who are sexually interested in you are not getting what they want. They are only your ``friends'' because they think you might change your mind. Why would anyone be friends with a person when the relationship is one sided and one person is not getting what he/she wants out of the relationship (apart from people who are needy or who aren't really friends, but merely people you know and chit-chat with occassionally)? I consider my friendship valuable, so for me to form that kind of relationship with someone, it has to be a two-way street. If I'm sexually interested in a woman, the price of my friendship is her sexual interest in me. I don't need friends who only call me when they need something from me."
----------
Exactly.
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 537
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/24/2010 3:17:27 PM

I assume that anytime anyone tells me he/she has ``lots of friends.'' There simply is not enough time in a day to have more than a few friends and perhaps lots of acquaintences.


Totally agreed. I have my close friends who ARE my support system - I have 3, not including family members. The others may from time to time be there, but they are not generally who I go to when I have a "crisis".
 1234deleted1234
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 538
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/24/2010 3:33:21 PM
I don't see the how the one-sided sexual attraction equates to a one sided friendship. Of course I'd have sex with 90% of my female friends.... doesn't mean that's WHY I'm their friend or that I'm hoping for something to happen! I enjoy their company, discussions, activities etc..

Now if I were to have amorous feelings toward a friend that weren't returned....THAT would be difficult indeed!
I would have to step back and retreat to the outer rings of friendship. Perhaps out of the ring altogether until the feelings pass.
 smittymo
Joined: 5/21/2010
Msg: 539
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/24/2010 4:50:42 PM
The concepts and discussions contained in this thread have always fascinated me. As a guy, I have had my share of girls who decided we were not relationship/FWB material at a time when I was still interested in them, and told me that we are going to change course/revert back to being “just friends.” After having a couple of experiences as most of the men here in this thread describe (being a sounding board and shoulder to cry on while some d-bag nails her, the female friend becoming extremely jealous when I become interested in another girl, ect..) while I was in my late teens, so I came to the conclusion that, for the most part, it is in my best interest to just cut ties and move on ASAP.

I generally don’t offer an explanation as to why I chose to decline friendship, nor do I expect an explanation as to why they just want to be friends. They either don’t find me physically attractive, found some sort of a deal breaking incompatibility or have someone they are more interested in waiting in the wings… I’ll deal, no explanation needed. I was willing to give them the benefit of my time, personality and all that goes with it (the good and bad) as a person I was sexually/romantically interested in or involved with, but since we are clearly not on the same page as far as that is concerned, I’m going to move on and spend my limited time with someone who might be. Again, no explanation needed, she can deal.

I do think it is extremely pretentious to make an automatic assumption that a guy who isn’t willing to remain friends with a girl he was romantically interested in simply “can’t handle it.” While I don’t doubt that can be the case (and see some clear statements from men on here that clearly support this argument), my own experience is simply that I usually choose not to. In reality, I have enough long standing and stable female friends who are really interesting and fun to be around, with low tension and low drama, that I have to feel you bring something extremely dynamic or unique to the table before I’m willing to consider you anything more than a casual acquaintance. Call it my own version of feeling “that spark.” ;) And, along the lines of what abelian says… normally within the amount of time it takes a girl to decide if she is interested in me romantically/sexually and then tell me she just wants to be friends (should that be her choice), I usually don’t know her well enough or have invested enough time with her to feel like I’m missing out when declining the friendship.

Another thing that I think needs to be considered, but I don’t think has been addressed yet, is the fact that most men (and I assume some women) are going to be far more tolerant of incompatibilities or even personality flaws if there is sex involved… including those that would otherwise be friendship killing. Sexual infatuation can be a crazy thing, and if it’s deflated for whatever reason, I think a healthy individual will re-asses knowing that a sexual relationship is out of the picture, and then perhaps decide that there really isn’t even a friend connection and then just move on. Along the same lines, I can’t even begin to tell you all how many times I have dealt with some crazy shit from a girl who I was in a sexual relationship with, only to have the sexual part of the relationship terminate (by her hand or mine, doesn’t matter,) and then look back on it after I am over it, and think “wow, I put up with all of that… just because we were bumping uglies?”

So, I think when the girl indicates she has no romantic/sexual interest in a guy, and then he declines friendship, it’s either because
1.) He understands that changing your mind is an uphill battle and wants to dedicate all his time and energy on finding a girl he is interested.
2.) He has enough going on in his life, perhaps already feels like he has enough female friends, mixed in with a bit of #1
3.) He re-assed the situation and decided that, without the sexual potential or tension, he simply decided you were not friend material.
4.) He really can’t handle it

All three situations well within his rights.

For the record, I don’t consider guys who continue trying to generate interest in a girl who is clearly not interested (trying to win her over, etc…) healthy. When a girl closes the door, she closes the door… whether she gave you a “fair” chance isn’t relevant… it isn’t there…. it isn’t going to be. At some point, you will feel like you are being strung along, and you will just get frustrated and angry. Focus your time and energy on a person who might be.

I get how guys tend to see it as a consolation prize, and there have been times when I have felt that a consolation prize was what I was being offered. I think it really depends on how the girl presents her feelings. There has been several times where a girl acted like I should be excited and honored that she has decided we can be “just friends,” and at that point, it really does feel like a consolation prize. However, it is also worth pointing out that, without exception, those girls have been the people who have FREAKED OUT on me when I say “not interested.” When made to feel this way, I immediately delete all correspondence, contact information, then block and blacklist. On the other hand, when a girl says “hey, you know, this isn’t working out/doesn’t feel right/no spark/no chemistry… I think you are really cool though, and if you are up for it, I would enjoy your company as a friend,” it doesn’t make it feel like I’m being offered a consolation prize at all, it feels more like a true mismatch. In that case, my normal response is more along the lines of “ok, I can accept that… my life is busy and complicated enough as it is, and right now my focus is on finding a girlfriend, so normally I just pass and go my own way, but give me some time and if I decide I want to hang out, I’ll let you know.” And you know what… even though chances are I’m not going to contact her again, I really do keep her information around for a while in case I decide I do want to hang out with her again. It has happened…

One thing that I don’t get from the guys though… why hold the fact that you have had this/these negative experiences in the past against those in the present and the future. Had a few bad experiences in the “friend zone?” Girl you want to pork cry on your shoulder about her B/F? Had a girl string you along? Been one of the drones a queen bee who just loves to have beneath her? Most guys have… but at this point… you all know the score. All you should be feeling is the sting of knowing that this girl isn’t in to you at the same level you are of her. The fact that you have been in this position before and it didn’t go well for you really isn’t her problem. So, if that is the way you feel, don’t stick around. That’s all you can do. If she really is that kind of girl, let some other chump be the guy who has to deal with it.

In the end, if this girl really is trying to make a game out of the “friend zone” you are NEVER going to be able to convince her (or get her to admit) that this is what she is really doing. And if one of your buddies “falls victim” to the same, you will never be able to convince him the true nature of the goings on until it is too late. That’s just the nature of the beast…

Cheers
 smittymo
Joined: 5/21/2010
Msg: 540
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/24/2010 4:54:25 PM
edit: All four situations well within his rights. Really I can count... ;)
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 541
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/24/2010 5:23:49 PM
I also don't know of any long standing (10+ year) marriages/relationships where one partner has an exclusive opposite sex "close" friend.

Last time I posted that, I believe that one person spoke up and said yes. However, they were divorced, so who's to say that this opposite sex friend of hers wasn't a problem for her husband at the time?

I'm not going to try to say that men and women can't be friends, but I really do honestly have yet to see a "close" friendship between a man and a woman that lasts many many years.

I just recently heard a story where this woman got back in contact (after a divorce) with a teenage/young adult acquaintance (you know they hung out in a big group), and they started hanging out now that she (and he) was "single" again. Guess what? They are now in a relationship and he admitted that he has been in love with her since way back then. And all along she thought he was only "a friend". Even when he said to her that he was in love with her, she still didn't get it at first.
 1234deleted1234
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 542
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 3:52:26 AM

I'm just curious...do you both consider these sex partners to be just "friends", booty calls or "friends with benefits?" If they're FWB's, then it's probably the opposite of what I think most of us are talking about here.



Well, in my case they can be any or all except booty calls... although one wanted that, I could tell she was hoping for more so I declined and actually backed off the friendship for awhile.
Some wre one time things, others just were joining me and my former GF then later became FWB's.

I know what the SUBJECT of the thread asks..what I've been primarily responding to is the posts that turned it into a sex thing.


But if you've "had sex with many of your female friends" and you "WOULD have sex with 90% of them" (love to see the 10% that didn't make the cut)


It just means either they're in monogamous relationships or I just am not physically turned on by them OR I can tell they'd get confused.



what's the difference in your mind between the female "friends" you want to have sex with and women you actually want to have a "relationship" with?


First I must clarify that WANT ahould be replaced with WOULD!

My friends are either with someone, not romantically/lifestyle compatible or like the ones who are taken, the thought neve enters my mind. Sure, they may be friends and attractive...there's just nothing else there.


Are these female "friends" of yours just the "hook-ups" that succeeded since you say that amorous feelings towards a friend that weren't returned would be "difficult" (read: she wouldn't let me hit it).


I wouldn't consider anything a "success" The hhokups happened well into the friendship, was not a goal and just happened incidentally.... usually with a dicussion preceeding it by days or weeks.... some probing going on then later when the moment was there..just happened.

Okay, the sexual attraction and the amorous attraction are totally diffeent things.... If I was feeling amorous toward a woman then just being friends WOULD be difficult if not returned. In this cae I would step back until the feelings ran their course.
I have to say that I usually know or read that they wouldn't be returned so I wouldn't let my feelings grow in the first place past the initial crush stage.


How many current boyfriends of the female friends you've had sex with:
A) Know you had sex with them
B) Are cool with their girlfriends hanging out with you knowing you had sex with them


A...All of them...you must remember that most of my friends are very open sexually and often relationship wise too! Their SO"s tend to be also.

B.... It depends..... Typically I would not be alone with them if either of us is IN a relationship unless our SO's allowed us to play alone.

You need to understand also that even when both single my female friends and I didn't hookup often if at all unless we agreecd to be FWB's.
 namrael
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 543
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 6:16:35 AM


I have consistently upheld both in forums and IRL that men an women can be friends, lovers, BF/GF, husband/wives or all of the above... and I am a big proponent of genuine friendships..... your posts on the other hand suggest a very tainted view of relationships in general and especially when sexual in nature.


I'm just curious...do you both consider these sex partners to be just "friends", booty calls or "friends with benefits?" If they're FWB's, then it's probably the opposite of what I think most of us are talking about here.


I posted the bit of jco's that I was agreeing with.

Personally, I have few FWBs and FBs. The few I might class that way are all people I know through the kink scene, so there's a more open sexuality associated with that anyway. It might also be worth noting that, if I feel comfortable with people, I'll play in varying capacities in kinky play with people I'm not f*cking. Those lines can be fuzzy, and as long as everyone's good with that and expectations aren't going beyond those bounds, it's all good.

Primarily, what I was agreeing with jco about is my appreciation of genuine friendships. Some of these could theoretically contain some sort of sexual component that wouldn't have to interfere with the rest of the friendship; though it's worth noting that, outside of the kink scene, my friendships tend to be simple friendships without those complications. The entire culture of the kink scene is different, so different rules and social expectations apply there. I don't think there's any sort of remotely sexual crossover with any of my vanilla friends.
 1234deleted1234
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 544
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 1:53:47 PM
I don't think there's any sort of remotely sexual crossover with any of my vanilla friends.


That was a better way to put it.... I'm not IN the scene... I skirt around the edges of it and a some of my friends do too.... I also have vanilla friends, but even they seem to be borderline. I'm just learning about the lifestyle.... my current friends that are borderline SHOULD be in the lifestyle but arent yet... they tend often to mess up their lives by wanting the lifestyle but being afraid to admit it so they frequently go for people who lean more vanilla and try to get them to accept....I try not to get too involved with them.

My two close female friends both are friends that I've had sex with. One only once a few years ago and the other was one that played with me and my ex.
I had another who is no longer a friend, we went the FWB route but let it get too messy...
 RobertKoi
Joined: 11/9/2008
Msg: 545
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 4:33:01 PM
Friends first is putting the carriage before the horse and it makes no sense at all if you're looking for a romantic partner, i.e., a lover or something serious and long term. Many dating gurus for example go as far as saying that too many hugs will make her believe that all you want is friendship and nothing else. Then imagine what they'd say about the "friends first" approach... Why would a guy want to put himself in the dreaded friend zone in the first place?

Anyway, it's a damn fact by now that the only way for a friendship to work out between a man and a woman is when there's no attraction whatsoever. The crazy thing is that that situation hardly EVER happens. Why? It's time to take off the cotton gloves, cut the bull$hit and say this: because it takes an "ugly" woman, and not THAT many guys out there want to hang around kissing an "ugly" woman's ass, right? That's right. He gets nothing out of it, though I can't see why she would reject him in the first place unless she considers HIM ugly as well.
 namrael
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 546
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 5:58:44 PM
@RobertKoi:

Anyway, it's a damn fact by now that the only way for a friendship to work out between a man and a woman is when there's no attraction whatsoever.


Stating that your opinion is a fact does not make it so.

@amboyace:

Personally, I'm not in the lifestyle that some others on the thread have posted, where sober, non-accidental sex between friends is common and available on demand.


Just for the record, it doesn't quite work that way, and there are also plenty of monogamous folks in the lifestyle as well. The lifestyle does tend not to involve the same set of assumptions about attraction and such that the vanilla world does, however, at least in my limited experience so far. This probably also has to do with the types of kinky crowds I prefer (i.e., the more open ones).
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 547
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 6:48:03 PM
They're "friends" on YOUR terms. Here's just another example of somebody who can't see the forest for the trees.

I have to support you on that -- if it is, as she said, one-sided desire, and she turning him down, they ARE friends on HER terms... but the guy CAN come around to accepting it w/o problems and that becomes something of the past. Especially if it's mild sexual attraction and he wasn't that into her anyway, and she has cute friends, etc etc. However, what you point out is what exists all too-commonly: The guy hangs around willing to "be friends" in hopes of something more in the end, or he just can't walk away -- applying something a bit similar (but kinda different) to the "any press is good press" mentality. In those situations, the girl has no room to complain "Why does he flirt or send me heartfelt texts when he drinks??" A reason why gals should be distant friends at best 95% of the time, if there's one-sided desire.

I honestly believe it's best to be friends first.

I don't -- do people put on blindfolds & gags in their mouth when going out/hanging out together several times and also while (potentially) fooling around on the side when getting to know each other? Are they enemies? No. Things start to bond, whether it's very short lived or not, whether or not there's romantic attraction, so I see no benefit in playing house in the "friends game". KNOWING that there's attraction there and announced ruins the development of a friendship in the "standard" way we see IRL a lot.

If it is for any other reason than to get to know the other person, then I would have to side on the fact that it is a waste of both of our time.

Like someone writing a biography? ;) You're nixing out the original intent though. Friends first before what? Dating? Okay. That "first" means there is more than just a reason to get to know them -- so that nixes it before it even begins! :)

I think it's a huge waste of time if two people click really well -- hit it off great, one-on-one, and then have to be just friends -- you mine as well be out-and-out role-playing or something. No, I'm not saying you "go steady" off the bat, but come on -- just friends? Take it at a decent pace... and people's paces should vary somewhat depending on the person they're engaging with and what position/situation they are in, too. So every situation is a bit different, but going the "lets be friends" route -- I fail to see any positive benefit from that if it's already known between you two that there's initial mutual attraction with the thoughts of Dating each other in mind (ie meeting off a Dating site, or meeting together due to a set-up by mutual friends).
 1234deleted1234
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 548
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 6:51:48 PM
I actually have believed that it's better to start as friends. Putting the cart before the horse? Not at all. Its more like deciding to live somewhere you've been to many times vs just saw a brochure for! I'm a total believer in friends first...you really get to know someone better and for real when there's nothing at stake. Attraction builds, if there are no major lifestyle hindrances you become BF/GF. If there are some minor things that might hinder progres, become FWB's. Then see what happens... if nothing, then you got to enjoy each other knowing it was limited but if those hindrances disappear then proceed!

I think it's funny BTW that many here in another thread latched onto smoking only and attacked me for my not wanting to move forward with my FWB.....turns out that we're now very seriou and smoking is the one thing that didn't change.

Lifestyling or not...there's a lot of value to having opposite sex friends if your maturity level can rise above just wanting to poke them!
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 549
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 6:59:44 PM

Friends first is putting the carriage before the horse and it makes no sense at all if you're looking for a romantic partner, i.e., a lover or something serious and long term.


I think the best relationship is one where both develop somewhat simultaneously. Passion AND friendship.

Of course, there are situations where the two are friends first - such as the story I posted a few posts back. BUT, he always loved her in a "more than friends" way. I wonder just how many instances of that there are?

That said, I get where Namreal is coming from about the kink lifestyle frienships. People not into that lifestyle, or not even familiar (informing themselves out of curiosity or a small interest) would have a hard timing grasping the types of friendships within that community (for lack of a better word).
 smittymo
Joined: 5/21/2010
Msg: 550
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 8:15:11 PM
From happybunny8:
"I think the best relationship is one where both develop somewhat simultaneously. Passion AND friendship."

I could not possibly agree with that statement more. Most of the dating advice I received when I was younger and my own experience backs that up. Do you end up spending some time with some people that you might not have had good long term comparability with? Sure, but even then you have fun and gain life experience from it... not to mention have some crazy stories once it's all over with!!

@Amboyace
I did read over the OP's post... I have actually read this whole thread over the course of the last few days:


One thing that I don’t get from the guys though… why hold the fact that you have had this/these negative experiences in the past against those in the present and the future. Had a few bad experiences in the “friend zone?” Girl you want to pork cry on your shoulder about her B/F? Had a girl string you along? Been one of the drones a queen bee who just loves to have beneath her? Most guys have… but at this point… you all know the score. All you should be feeling is the sting of knowing that this girl isn’t in to you at the same level you are of her. The fact that you have been in this position before and it didn’t go well for you really isn’t her problem. So, if that is the way you feel, don’t stick around. That’s all you can do. If she really is that kind of girl, let some other chump be the guy who has to deal with it. .


I said that because I felt that there were some prior posts from guys who were holding the fact that "friend zone" unpleasantness had happened to them at some point against the women on here, and these girls are not personally directly at fault, they are simply providing their commentary and insight. Perhaps I was misreading or interpreting what was being said, or didn't do a good job articulating what I was saying. The other point that I was trying to make is that it sets kind of a dangerous IRL precedent, because if a guy has a girl who leads him on, no mater what the circumstances, and then he holds this against the next girl who comes along (or the female sex as a whole)... it's going to show, and she isn't going to stick around. And, if you feel like you are in that situation again, get out ASAP (say no to the "friend zone" so she doesn't have that "over you") and understand that's all you can do... don't charge the next girl (or the ladies on here) with it.

For the record though Amboyace, I don't recall seeing any of that hostility in any of your posts on here.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 552
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 8:40:05 PM
I'm a total believer in friends first...you really get to know someone better and for real when there's nothing at stake.

I agree that can certainly be, by happenstance. But there's a catch-22 when you don't get to know each other by happenstance (co-worker; friend of friend in social circle where everyone mingles, etc), but instead off a Dating site or approaching a gal at the bar, flirting, getting a #. In those situations, it's already exposed that there is more-than-friends emotion. You met her & got to know her off the bat with sexual/romantic attraction and intent at the beginning -- therefore one would have to go into pretend mode, right?

Attraction builds, if there are no major lifestyle hindrances you become BF/GF.

It can, but it can be right there where you're more-than-friends in the outset. Therefore being "just friends" would be taking a step back in those cases (again, almost like role-playing). When does that almost always happen? When people aren't "that into" the other person.

Lifestyling or not...there's a lot of value to having opposite sex friends if your maturity level can rise above just wanting to poke them!

Oh no, true. But in the case of rejection it's not about poking, but about someone not finding the other desirable. They shouldn't be expected in any way shape or form to be just-friends with them. That's different than opp-sex co-workers who become friends within the group, or friends of a social circle of both genders, etc.

IF there is actual attraction and not just love/lust, then I would agree, it would be almost pointless to start out as friends.

Hmmm, slightly confused -- "just" love/lust is actual attraction though. Attraction can be wrapped in different flavors, of course. Don't know what you mean by "actual"... I'll just maybe assume you mean "sufficient" attraction? (like not on the fence in terms of their looks & persona (which 90% of the time means not interested but I dont like rejecting people)).

Then again what word would you use instead of friends to describe this?

You can be more than friends but not datING or in a Relationship, and not even FWB. "Friends" is an interesting, vague term, and as such folks have to take careful consideration of the contexts in which it can be in sometimes.

Not every situation has a distinct label. I think that's what can cause some issues. Many people say "Bob, this is my friend Sally" in reference to a gal he's out with casually at the bar, running into some buddies of his, where they know she's not JUST a friend. It would be better (to not water-down the word 'friends') if he just said "Bob, this is Sally..." with no label.

Using "just friends" is the key term to make it clear. A guy may stammer at his GF and say "Betty? She's a friend of mine, so what?" but that won't make it clear enough until he says "She's JUST a friend! JUST a friend!"

"Friend" is open-ended, because it can feed off the context but also be confusing. By default, left alone, it means strictly-platonic w/ "just" -- if there's nothing else surrounding it. But why use "Friends First"? People already know you're not a couple (or item) if you just had even an official first Date with candles and all. We all know it wouldn't be fair to call them a couple, ie people who have been datING, after just that. But we also know they're not just Friends, either. A lack of -popular- label doesn't mean it's wise to confuse it with one thing it's not, to avoid something else it's not.

"Who's that girl, Jim? I saw you guys out at Olive Garden once..."
"Oh yeah Bob, that's Sally... she's a gal I went out on a date with. We texted today, and the ball's in her court right now..."

Does Bob assume she's just a friend? No. Does Bob assume nothing sexual on any base occurred? No. Does Bob assume they're a couple? No. Does there need to be a label? No.
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