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 smittymo
Joined: 5/21/2010
Msg: 540
Why do men find it hard to be friends?Page 18 of 44    (4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44)
edit: All four situations well within his rights. Really I can count... ;)
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 541
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/24/2010 5:23:49 PM
I also don't know of any long standing (10+ year) marriages/relationships where one partner has an exclusive opposite sex "close" friend.

Last time I posted that, I believe that one person spoke up and said yes. However, they were divorced, so who's to say that this opposite sex friend of hers wasn't a problem for her husband at the time?

I'm not going to try to say that men and women can't be friends, but I really do honestly have yet to see a "close" friendship between a man and a woman that lasts many many years.

I just recently heard a story where this woman got back in contact (after a divorce) with a teenage/young adult acquaintance (you know they hung out in a big group), and they started hanging out now that she (and he) was "single" again. Guess what? They are now in a relationship and he admitted that he has been in love with her since way back then. And all along she thought he was only "a friend". Even when he said to her that he was in love with her, she still didn't get it at first.
 1234deleted1234
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 542
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 3:52:26 AM

I'm just curious...do you both consider these sex partners to be just "friends", booty calls or "friends with benefits?" If they're FWB's, then it's probably the opposite of what I think most of us are talking about here.



Well, in my case they can be any or all except booty calls... although one wanted that, I could tell she was hoping for more so I declined and actually backed off the friendship for awhile.
Some wre one time things, others just were joining me and my former GF then later became FWB's.

I know what the SUBJECT of the thread asks..what I've been primarily responding to is the posts that turned it into a sex thing.


But if you've "had sex with many of your female friends" and you "WOULD have sex with 90% of them" (love to see the 10% that didn't make the cut)


It just means either they're in monogamous relationships or I just am not physically turned on by them OR I can tell they'd get confused.



what's the difference in your mind between the female "friends" you want to have sex with and women you actually want to have a "relationship" with?


First I must clarify that WANT ahould be replaced with WOULD!

My friends are either with someone, not romantically/lifestyle compatible or like the ones who are taken, the thought neve enters my mind. Sure, they may be friends and attractive...there's just nothing else there.


Are these female "friends" of yours just the "hook-ups" that succeeded since you say that amorous feelings towards a friend that weren't returned would be "difficult" (read: she wouldn't let me hit it).


I wouldn't consider anything a "success" The hhokups happened well into the friendship, was not a goal and just happened incidentally.... usually with a dicussion preceeding it by days or weeks.... some probing going on then later when the moment was there..just happened.

Okay, the sexual attraction and the amorous attraction are totally diffeent things.... If I was feeling amorous toward a woman then just being friends WOULD be difficult if not returned. In this cae I would step back until the feelings ran their course.
I have to say that I usually know or read that they wouldn't be returned so I wouldn't let my feelings grow in the first place past the initial crush stage.


How many current boyfriends of the female friends you've had sex with:
A) Know you had sex with them
B) Are cool with their girlfriends hanging out with you knowing you had sex with them


A...All of them...you must remember that most of my friends are very open sexually and often relationship wise too! Their SO"s tend to be also.

B.... It depends..... Typically I would not be alone with them if either of us is IN a relationship unless our SO's allowed us to play alone.

You need to understand also that even when both single my female friends and I didn't hookup often if at all unless we agreecd to be FWB's.
 namrael
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 543
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 6:16:35 AM


I have consistently upheld both in forums and IRL that men an women can be friends, lovers, BF/GF, husband/wives or all of the above... and I am a big proponent of genuine friendships..... your posts on the other hand suggest a very tainted view of relationships in general and especially when sexual in nature.


I'm just curious...do you both consider these sex partners to be just "friends", booty calls or "friends with benefits?" If they're FWB's, then it's probably the opposite of what I think most of us are talking about here.


I posted the bit of jco's that I was agreeing with.

Personally, I have few FWBs and FBs. The few I might class that way are all people I know through the kink scene, so there's a more open sexuality associated with that anyway. It might also be worth noting that, if I feel comfortable with people, I'll play in varying capacities in kinky play with people I'm not f*cking. Those lines can be fuzzy, and as long as everyone's good with that and expectations aren't going beyond those bounds, it's all good.

Primarily, what I was agreeing with jco about is my appreciation of genuine friendships. Some of these could theoretically contain some sort of sexual component that wouldn't have to interfere with the rest of the friendship; though it's worth noting that, outside of the kink scene, my friendships tend to be simple friendships without those complications. The entire culture of the kink scene is different, so different rules and social expectations apply there. I don't think there's any sort of remotely sexual crossover with any of my vanilla friends.
 1234deleted1234
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 544
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 1:53:47 PM
I don't think there's any sort of remotely sexual crossover with any of my vanilla friends.


That was a better way to put it.... I'm not IN the scene... I skirt around the edges of it and a some of my friends do too.... I also have vanilla friends, but even they seem to be borderline. I'm just learning about the lifestyle.... my current friends that are borderline SHOULD be in the lifestyle but arent yet... they tend often to mess up their lives by wanting the lifestyle but being afraid to admit it so they frequently go for people who lean more vanilla and try to get them to accept....I try not to get too involved with them.

My two close female friends both are friends that I've had sex with. One only once a few years ago and the other was one that played with me and my ex.
I had another who is no longer a friend, we went the FWB route but let it get too messy...
 RobertKoi
Joined: 11/9/2008
Msg: 545
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 4:33:01 PM
Friends first is putting the carriage before the horse and it makes no sense at all if you're looking for a romantic partner, i.e., a lover or something serious and long term. Many dating gurus for example go as far as saying that too many hugs will make her believe that all you want is friendship and nothing else. Then imagine what they'd say about the "friends first" approach... Why would a guy want to put himself in the dreaded friend zone in the first place?

Anyway, it's a damn fact by now that the only way for a friendship to work out between a man and a woman is when there's no attraction whatsoever. The crazy thing is that that situation hardly EVER happens. Why? It's time to take off the cotton gloves, cut the bull$hit and say this: because it takes an "ugly" woman, and not THAT many guys out there want to hang around kissing an "ugly" woman's ass, right? That's right. He gets nothing out of it, though I can't see why she would reject him in the first place unless she considers HIM ugly as well.
 namrael
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 546
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 5:58:44 PM
@RobertKoi:

Anyway, it's a damn fact by now that the only way for a friendship to work out between a man and a woman is when there's no attraction whatsoever.


Stating that your opinion is a fact does not make it so.

@amboyace:

Personally, I'm not in the lifestyle that some others on the thread have posted, where sober, non-accidental sex between friends is common and available on demand.


Just for the record, it doesn't quite work that way, and there are also plenty of monogamous folks in the lifestyle as well. The lifestyle does tend not to involve the same set of assumptions about attraction and such that the vanilla world does, however, at least in my limited experience so far. This probably also has to do with the types of kinky crowds I prefer (i.e., the more open ones).
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 547
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 6:48:03 PM
They're "friends" on YOUR terms. Here's just another example of somebody who can't see the forest for the trees.

I have to support you on that -- if it is, as she said, one-sided desire, and she turning him down, they ARE friends on HER terms... but the guy CAN come around to accepting it w/o problems and that becomes something of the past. Especially if it's mild sexual attraction and he wasn't that into her anyway, and she has cute friends, etc etc. However, what you point out is what exists all too-commonly: The guy hangs around willing to "be friends" in hopes of something more in the end, or he just can't walk away -- applying something a bit similar (but kinda different) to the "any press is good press" mentality. In those situations, the girl has no room to complain "Why does he flirt or send me heartfelt texts when he drinks??" A reason why gals should be distant friends at best 95% of the time, if there's one-sided desire.

I honestly believe it's best to be friends first.

I don't -- do people put on blindfolds & gags in their mouth when going out/hanging out together several times and also while (potentially) fooling around on the side when getting to know each other? Are they enemies? No. Things start to bond, whether it's very short lived or not, whether or not there's romantic attraction, so I see no benefit in playing house in the "friends game". KNOWING that there's attraction there and announced ruins the development of a friendship in the "standard" way we see IRL a lot.

If it is for any other reason than to get to know the other person, then I would have to side on the fact that it is a waste of both of our time.

Like someone writing a biography? ;) You're nixing out the original intent though. Friends first before what? Dating? Okay. That "first" means there is more than just a reason to get to know them -- so that nixes it before it even begins! :)

I think it's a huge waste of time if two people click really well -- hit it off great, one-on-one, and then have to be just friends -- you mine as well be out-and-out role-playing or something. No, I'm not saying you "go steady" off the bat, but come on -- just friends? Take it at a decent pace... and people's paces should vary somewhat depending on the person they're engaging with and what position/situation they are in, too. So every situation is a bit different, but going the "lets be friends" route -- I fail to see any positive benefit from that if it's already known between you two that there's initial mutual attraction with the thoughts of Dating each other in mind (ie meeting off a Dating site, or meeting together due to a set-up by mutual friends).
 1234deleted1234
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 548
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 6:51:48 PM
I actually have believed that it's better to start as friends. Putting the cart before the horse? Not at all. Its more like deciding to live somewhere you've been to many times vs just saw a brochure for! I'm a total believer in friends first...you really get to know someone better and for real when there's nothing at stake. Attraction builds, if there are no major lifestyle hindrances you become BF/GF. If there are some minor things that might hinder progres, become FWB's. Then see what happens... if nothing, then you got to enjoy each other knowing it was limited but if those hindrances disappear then proceed!

I think it's funny BTW that many here in another thread latched onto smoking only and attacked me for my not wanting to move forward with my FWB.....turns out that we're now very seriou and smoking is the one thing that didn't change.

Lifestyling or not...there's a lot of value to having opposite sex friends if your maturity level can rise above just wanting to poke them!
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 549
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 6:59:44 PM

Friends first is putting the carriage before the horse and it makes no sense at all if you're looking for a romantic partner, i.e., a lover or something serious and long term.


I think the best relationship is one where both develop somewhat simultaneously. Passion AND friendship.

Of course, there are situations where the two are friends first - such as the story I posted a few posts back. BUT, he always loved her in a "more than friends" way. I wonder just how many instances of that there are?

That said, I get where Namreal is coming from about the kink lifestyle frienships. People not into that lifestyle, or not even familiar (informing themselves out of curiosity or a small interest) would have a hard timing grasping the types of friendships within that community (for lack of a better word).
 smittymo
Joined: 5/21/2010
Msg: 550
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 8:15:11 PM
From happybunny8:
"I think the best relationship is one where both develop somewhat simultaneously. Passion AND friendship."

I could not possibly agree with that statement more. Most of the dating advice I received when I was younger and my own experience backs that up. Do you end up spending some time with some people that you might not have had good long term comparability with? Sure, but even then you have fun and gain life experience from it... not to mention have some crazy stories once it's all over with!!

@Amboyace
I did read over the OP's post... I have actually read this whole thread over the course of the last few days:


One thing that I don’t get from the guys though… why hold the fact that you have had this/these negative experiences in the past against those in the present and the future. Had a few bad experiences in the “friend zone?” Girl you want to pork cry on your shoulder about her B/F? Had a girl string you along? Been one of the drones a queen bee who just loves to have beneath her? Most guys have… but at this point… you all know the score. All you should be feeling is the sting of knowing that this girl isn’t in to you at the same level you are of her. The fact that you have been in this position before and it didn’t go well for you really isn’t her problem. So, if that is the way you feel, don’t stick around. That’s all you can do. If she really is that kind of girl, let some other chump be the guy who has to deal with it. .


I said that because I felt that there were some prior posts from guys who were holding the fact that "friend zone" unpleasantness had happened to them at some point against the women on here, and these girls are not personally directly at fault, they are simply providing their commentary and insight. Perhaps I was misreading or interpreting what was being said, or didn't do a good job articulating what I was saying. The other point that I was trying to make is that it sets kind of a dangerous IRL precedent, because if a guy has a girl who leads him on, no mater what the circumstances, and then he holds this against the next girl who comes along (or the female sex as a whole)... it's going to show, and she isn't going to stick around. And, if you feel like you are in that situation again, get out ASAP (say no to the "friend zone" so she doesn't have that "over you") and understand that's all you can do... don't charge the next girl (or the ladies on here) with it.

For the record though Amboyace, I don't recall seeing any of that hostility in any of your posts on here.
 broncsbuff
Joined: 4/18/2008
Msg: 551
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 8:34:56 PM
look...

If your a dude and you want to be friends with a chick you want to fvck, or be with emotionally(same thing)...then that is on YOU. If you want to put yourself thru emotional torture and hear about all the dudes she boinks, wants to boink, will boink, and none of those dudes will EVER be you?....then your a dumbass.

Of course if your a woman and you have a dude that you KNOW will boink in a heartbeat and continue the friendship...then so be it...I dont hate you for it.

I just find it funny that some women come on here and are so confused and perplexed when men dont want your "friendship" after a couple dates...I will accept your friendship if I DONT want to fvck you...cause that is the only way we will be "true" friends(my defintion anyway...yours could be different)

and again..I never understood people coming to a dating site, finding someone they like and have intrests with, take the time and effort to write them. Take the time and effort to spend time with them. You like her, she likes you.....and.....FRIENDS.....

didnt you just do what you have did if you were "looking" for a relationship?....
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 552
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/25/2010 8:40:05 PM
I'm a total believer in friends first...you really get to know someone better and for real when there's nothing at stake.

I agree that can certainly be, by happenstance. But there's a catch-22 when you don't get to know each other by happenstance (co-worker; friend of friend in social circle where everyone mingles, etc), but instead off a Dating site or approaching a gal at the bar, flirting, getting a #. In those situations, it's already exposed that there is more-than-friends emotion. You met her & got to know her off the bat with sexual/romantic attraction and intent at the beginning -- therefore one would have to go into pretend mode, right?

Attraction builds, if there are no major lifestyle hindrances you become BF/GF.

It can, but it can be right there where you're more-than-friends in the outset. Therefore being "just friends" would be taking a step back in those cases (again, almost like role-playing). When does that almost always happen? When people aren't "that into" the other person.

Lifestyling or not...there's a lot of value to having opposite sex friends if your maturity level can rise above just wanting to poke them!

Oh no, true. But in the case of rejection it's not about poking, but about someone not finding the other desirable. They shouldn't be expected in any way shape or form to be just-friends with them. That's different than opp-sex co-workers who become friends within the group, or friends of a social circle of both genders, etc.

IF there is actual attraction and not just love/lust, then I would agree, it would be almost pointless to start out as friends.

Hmmm, slightly confused -- "just" love/lust is actual attraction though. Attraction can be wrapped in different flavors, of course. Don't know what you mean by "actual"... I'll just maybe assume you mean "sufficient" attraction? (like not on the fence in terms of their looks & persona (which 90% of the time means not interested but I dont like rejecting people)).

Then again what word would you use instead of friends to describe this?

You can be more than friends but not datING or in a Relationship, and not even FWB. "Friends" is an interesting, vague term, and as such folks have to take careful consideration of the contexts in which it can be in sometimes.

Not every situation has a distinct label. I think that's what can cause some issues. Many people say "Bob, this is my friend Sally" in reference to a gal he's out with casually at the bar, running into some buddies of his, where they know she's not JUST a friend. It would be better (to not water-down the word 'friends') if he just said "Bob, this is Sally..." with no label.

Using "just friends" is the key term to make it clear. A guy may stammer at his GF and say "Betty? She's a friend of mine, so what?" but that won't make it clear enough until he says "She's JUST a friend! JUST a friend!"

"Friend" is open-ended, because it can feed off the context but also be confusing. By default, left alone, it means strictly-platonic w/ "just" -- if there's nothing else surrounding it. But why use "Friends First"? People already know you're not a couple (or item) if you just had even an official first Date with candles and all. We all know it wouldn't be fair to call them a couple, ie people who have been datING, after just that. But we also know they're not just Friends, either. A lack of -popular- label doesn't mean it's wise to confuse it with one thing it's not, to avoid something else it's not.

"Who's that girl, Jim? I saw you guys out at Olive Garden once..."
"Oh yeah Bob, that's Sally... she's a gal I went out on a date with. We texted today, and the ball's in her court right now..."

Does Bob assume she's just a friend? No. Does Bob assume nothing sexual on any base occurred? No. Does Bob assume they're a couple? No. Does there need to be a label? No.
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 553
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/26/2010 5:41:11 AM
and that Happybunny, is why there needs to be a clear definition of what kind of friendship we're talking about here. Even my closest female friends aren't "talk to them/hang out with them all the time/every other day" types. They're a lot like the relationships Boo describes in her post.


I maintain my position on this in every thread like this. I always point out there is a difference between friends (close friends mean you are hanging out all the time, just as much as with your same sex friends, you spend time alone, you go to each other in a crisis, you cry on each other's shoulder). Not many people come back and actually respond to the question "how many of you know married folks of +10 years who have close personal friends that they spend time with alone of the opposite sex". I always hear crickets on that question. I know of one married couple where she USED to have a male best friend. She hasn't seen or talked to that guy in 10 years. Uh huh.

It only seems to be the single/FWB/FB people who defend having opposite sex friends (kind lifestyles aside). It's funny how that opposite sex friend tends to fade away once one of the persons enters into a LTR seriously.

And here's the thing, knowing, as I do and have for many many years most men's position on male/female friendships, I would never place my man in position of having to be jealous. Just as I never place myself in that position where my 3 male friends (since childhood) new partner's might have to be jealous. I've noticed a trend that some women on here are only thinking about how it affects them and THEIR friendship. Those are very telling comments.

I'd also point out that some women think it is "cool" or something like that to say things like "I get along better with men" and only have male friends; when the truth of the matter is that the men who are friends are just acquaintances. It was the very cool thing to do when we were in our 20's. Women somehow thought that this made it seem like you were a girl who "got" men.

I may have been close with my male friends back when I was 20, but as we grew older and partnered up, we grew apart and basically now only hang as a group - once in a while getting together alone, but very very rarely. And I never instigate or invite that and if there was any thought on my friend's part of romantic intent with me while he was with another? He's in big trouble, cause I won't condone that behaviour.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 554
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/26/2010 6:37:36 AM
^^^I've found that as a single woman, what opposite sex friends I have that are platonic and close, become friends of whoever I end up dating. Same with any guy I meet - any female friend he has, will become a female friend WE have. This is the same as same sex friends each person has from before a relationship starts. I'm not sure why after you get involved you have to either give up your friends, or separate them from your SO consistently to the point where it's secrecy.

I do have a lot of male friends, generally industry oriented as I have almost always worked in male dominated fields, so that's where most of my friends come from, casual or close...I also don't have a ton of friends I talk to and hang out with daily of either gender - as even my closest friends and I don't have that much free time in our schedules with work, school, kids, activities, whatever.

The only time where it becomes a problem in my relationships is when an opposite sex friend dates a woman who's too insecure to be ok with me being a female friend and he caters to that type of thing (or an SO has a female friend who's dating a guy with those issues).

OT, for men who agree to friendship with women they have attraction to (or women men, as the case may be), they are no less dishonest than they think the women are who offer that friendship. I don't know why men are so put off by this offer, as I don't feel most women are offering friendship to insult.

Politely declining with an explanation would tend to diffuse a situation where a woman might be confused or upset about a man saying no - especially if saying yes would only be in hopes of changing someone's mind who's already made it clear there's no hope anyway. This should be a wash, but if men are upset how a friendship that was offered turned out, it's only because it actually turned out to be only a friendship, which (let's face it) he agreed to in the first place.

It's similar to the FWB threads, you can't sign up for something and then complain when it turns out to really be exactly what you signed up for.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 555
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/26/2010 9:41:17 AM

I also don't have a ton of friends I talk to and hang out with daily of either gender - as even my closest friends and I don't have that much free time in our schedules with work, school, kids, activities, whatever.

Sure. I think that has to be true for anyone. There isn't enough time in the day to have lots of those types of friends. However, those ``close'' friends are really the people who are your friends. They are the ones you can count on and who can count on you without anyone feeling imposed upon. So, those people are what I'd call friends for this purpose. Someone you just met is just someone you met who, perhaps, has a pleasant personality and might not be tedious to talk to. Seriously, if we were referring to those people one just talks to occassionally or one talks to as a part of a job, or whatever, no one here would be able to seriously say men and women can't be friends. So, to even think that way, we can't be talking about ephemeral friendships. (People who mistake ephemeral friendships for true friendships are another topic entirely.)

OT, for men who agree to friendship with women they have attraction to (or women men, as the case may be), they are no less dishonest than they think the women are who offer that friendship.

Sure. That is evident from the zillions of ``nice guy posts'' from guys who have deluded themselves into thinking they are nice and that being nice is their problem.

I don't know why men are so put off by this offer, as I don't feel most women are offering friendship to insult.

I would never be insulted by such an offer (if for no other reason than I am not insulted by anything.) If by ``put off,'' you mean ``uninterested,'' the reasons are simple. I don't go out of my way to meet people to find friends, so, if I went out of my way to meet a woman, my interest in her was something other than friendship:

(1) If there was no chemistry, I had no interest in pursuing her as a friend. Why should I? I already have friends.

(2) If I was not attracted to her, but she was attracted to me, then the problen would just be the reverse of the one you mentioned. I've been there before and I'm not comfortable with someone who is ostensibly a friend who fawns all over me. I hate that. It is a very unequal relationship and it feels weird to know a woman knows I'm not interested in dating her, but would let me take advantage of her interest in me hoping that I'd change my mind. I wouldn't put myself in her position, so it bothers me to let someone do that. Expecting a woman to put on her ``big girl panties'' is fine in the abstract as advice, but I don't like to hurt anyone intentionally.

(3) If the lack of attraction was that she was not attracted to me, then as I've already noted, I'm not interested in trying to date her by the subterfuge of being a friend. If I wouldn't be interested in friendship if I wasn't physically attracted to her, I'm not going to make an exception as part of some delusion to weasel my way into dating her. On the other hand, if I was interested in a woman who was only lukewarm as far as dating me went, but for some reason, she really found me fascinating, my best option for dating her is still to not be friends with her and be a package deal. (BTW, I've never left a meeting with any animosity, so I've never said anything that would have kept anyone from getting back in touch with me. A couple did, but by the time that happened, I had already met my fiancee.)

Politely declining with an explanation would tend to diffuse a situation where a woman might be confused or upset about a man saying no - especially if saying yes would only be in hopes of changing someone's mind who's already made it clear there's no hope anyway.

I'm not really sure why it is necessary to say much of anything. If you just say, ``Well ok, sure,'' in a rather non-committal way, and then just parting, it's easy enough to not create a frienship by just not pursuing it. The only reason to give someone a reason for declining his/her friendship is to part company without any animosity, and there's almost nothing you can say that someone won't take personally. I'd say if it's wothwhile to explicitly decine an offer of friendship and offer an explanation as to why, one might as well, just let any interest in friendship it die on its own. I'd think a non-committal, ``Well ok,'' ought to be enough of a clue that one is not particulary enthusiastic about being buddies.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 556
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/26/2010 10:14:58 AM

I would never be insulted by such an offer (if for no other reason than I am not insulted by anything.) If by ``put off,'' you mean ``uninterested,'' the reasons are simple. I don't go out of my way to meet people to find friends, so, if I went out of my way to meet a woman, my interest in her was something other than friendship:

Nope, uninterested is fine. I'm talking about the posters here who are likening a friendship offer to a violation or crime against them, or are generally being dramatic about the topic.

(1) If there was no chemistry, I had no interest in pursuing her as a friend. Why should I? I already have friends.

Agreed. And if you've only met a woman once, a friendship offer is sort of out of place and irrelevant anyway.

(2) If I was not attracted to her, but she was attracted to me, then the problen would just be the reverse of the one you mentioned. I've been there before and I'm not comfortable with someone who is ostensibly a friend who fawns all over me. I hate that. It is a very unequal relationship and it feels weird to know a woman knows I'm not interested in dating her, but would let me take advantage of her interest in me hoping that I'd change my mind. I wouldn't put myself in her position, so it bothers me to let someone do that. Expecting a woman to put on her ``big girl panties'' is fine in the abstract as advice, but I don't like to hurt anyone intentionally.

Well, I guess there are women out there that figure they've dated a guy a couple times and like spending time with him but aren't attracted - and that asking a guy if he'll remain a friend will get her a straight answer. So if a woman agrees to such a friendship to some extent she's putting herself in that situation...as she could have just chosen to walk away. She's also being somewhat dishonest if she's hoping you'll change your mind in the future.

(3) If the lack of attraction was that she was not attracted to me, then as I've already noted, I'm not interested in trying to date her by the subterfuge of being a friend. If I wouldn't be interested in friendship if I wasn't physically attracted to her, I'm not going to make an exception as part of some delusion to weasel my way into dating her. On the other hand, if I was interested in a woman who was only lukewarm as far as dating me went, but for some reason, she really found me fascinating, my best option for dating her is still to not be friends with her and be a package deal. (BTW, I've never left a meeting with any animosity, so I've never said anything that would have kept anyone from getting back in touch with me. A couple did, but by the time that happened, I had already met my fiancee.)

Again, that's the way to do it - as not everyone is attracted to everyone else, it's silly to have animousity when someone's not interested in us.
[quorte]I'm not really sure why it is necessary to say much of anything. If you just say, ``Well ok, sure,'' in a rather non-committal way, and then just parting, it's easy enough to not create a frienship by just not pursuing it. The only reason to give someone a reason for declining his/her friendship is to part company without any animosity, and there's almost nothing you can say that someone won't take personally. I'd say if it's wothwhile to explicitly decine an offer of friendship and offer an explanation as to why, one might as well, just let any interest in friendship it die on its own. I'd think a non-committal, ``Well ok,'' ought to be enough of a clue that one is not particulary enthusiastic about being buddies.
I'm not sure why there's a problem with explaining if it'll save confusion and further correspondance, or questions like the one that started this thread. I don't do subtle either - and if a woman isn't aware that offering friendship isn't the best idea as a followup after not being interested in dating, assuming she'll get an unenthusiastic "ok" as an actual "no thanks" might be a little far fetched. Declining a friendship straight out is a legitimate answer to a question that SHOULD have more than one option for a response. The only other reason a guy would avoid explaining this is pride/ego, and that's silliness.
 1234deleted1234
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 557
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/26/2010 12:28:05 PM

You're missing the point, jco. How can you gauge your OWN "maturity level" if you're actually POKING your opposite sex friends, instead of "just wanting to poke them?" I have to assume, that unless they're raping you, you WANT to poke them when the poking happens. What makes you 'more mature" than any other guy posting here if you want to do the SAME EXACT THING?


Again, you insist on using the word WANT instead of WOULD! I WOULD boink most of my female friends....I don't go around WANTING to though.....fundamental difference!


My two close female friends are ladies I have had sex with....true! There's a reason that out of all my female friends, ranging from aquaintences to the inner circle, the two I've had sex with are the closest! Now...figuring out why is a chicken and egg thing...don't even bother!



I have three female friends for about 15 years now that, although not very close lately, have been friends through multiple relationship on both sides and I've never had sex withany of them....do I WANT to? perhaps....if the situation was right..I WOULD!

Oh, yeah...two of them OFFERED or indicated interest at different times in the past yet the fact that I WOULD didn't mean I DID....the circumstances weren't right and the friendship meant more! ...Maturity level!

So nothing ever happened except I did make out with one once.
 1234deleted1234
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 558
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/26/2010 1:22:57 PM

I just don't think you should label other men as "immature" if they don't want to mix an unobtainable sexual temptation with their platonic friendships, and remove themselves from the equation


Oh, I didn't think you were hating..... I just think it's imature for some men to reject a female's friendship just because they want to boink her. First, I think if they can get past the wanting to boink part, they may find a true friend....srcond, friendships are a great launching pad for a relationship......as long as you're not plnning on it...it has to just happen.

I also wasn't saying that it's immature in every instance....I was talking more about some posters who have these absolute ideas about men and women.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 559
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/26/2010 1:23:56 PM

I'm not sure why there's a problem with explaining if it'll save confusion and further correspondance, or questions like the one that started this thread. I don't do subtle either - and if a woman isn't aware that offering friendship isn't the best idea as a followup after not being interested in dating, assuming she'll get an unenthusiastic "ok" as an actual "no thanks" might be a little far fetched.

If I've been rejected, I'm happy to move along to the mext person. If, as you say, a woman isn't aware that offering friendship after rejecting a guy romantically/sexually is a little odd, it doesn't really matter what I tell her. She still isn't interested in dating me and she isn't going to put her life on hold waiting for a phone call nor think much about not hearing from her ``new friend.''

The only other reason a guy would avoid explaining this is pride/ego, and that's silliness.

I'd think it's more the other way around. Wanting to say ``No, I won't be your friend'' and wanting to explain it seems too much like sour grapes due to a bruised ego. I think if there's any sucking it up and swallowing one's pride, it's in accepting the rejection, resisting the temptation to take a parting shot at her for it and parting ways without any hard feelings. I'd know I'm not interested in friendship and if she doesn't figure it out from a rather obvious hint, she isn't going to sit around and fret over not hearing from me, either.
 smittymo
Joined: 5/21/2010
Msg: 560
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/26/2010 3:12:20 PM
@W.I.P.


The only other reason a guy would avoid explaining this is pride/ego, and that's silliness.


I find this statement extremely off base. I recall that earlier in this thread, either you or another girl said that an explanation from a girl to a guy as to why they are not interested in a romantic/sexual relationship is unnecessary, due to the guy consequently getting angry, trying to argue it, trying to prove her wrong, etc... In my own experiences, explaining why I declined the friendship in this situation has had the same consequences and worse, including keyed cars, broken windows, threats against myself and my family, new cellphone numbers, police reports and restraining orders. I hardly see where ego comes in... it is more like self-defense, and trying to claim my lack of desire to explain why I don't want to be friends with her as anything else doesn't fly. Again, she isn't interested in me romantically, I don't need to know why... and if I don't want to remain in close contact with her upon understanding this, she doesn't need to know why either. We both can deal equally.
 CoolBreezez
Joined: 8/20/2006
Msg: 561
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/26/2010 4:05:23 PM
A friendship between and man and women can be good but it carries risks too.

Many men, right here on these boards, have had the experience of being a friend that turns out like a half way boyfriend kind of thing. Kind of dates, hanging out, girl depends on them to do chores, favours, emotional support and semi intimate things like sleeping in the same bed and spooning. Then out of the blue, a real boyfriend emerges and you are forgotten. Sometimes even worse is when he's gone and you pick backup to the same place you were in before. Repeated enough, the guy starts to feel kind of used and realizes that his time is getting used up, that he's not really being honest with himself about what his intent is and neither is she.

So is it better to just keep something like this going, or start into a new one or just realize whats really going on and walk away before it starts again?

Most times just walking away seems the right thing to do. The saying "Discretion is the better part of valour" comes to mind.

If a relationship like this does get sexual but stays "friends", then now we have made it into FB and FWB territory. The guy can be somewhat happier in this situation but then that leads to another whole dynamic where the woman may feel used and wonder where this going. As we have seen, this is another muddy area on the spectrum of relationships and for many not tolerable.
 1234deleted1234
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 562
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/26/2010 6:35:33 PM

If a relationship like this does get sexual but stays "friends", then now we have made it into FB and FWB territory. The guy can be somewhat happier in this situation but then that leads to another whole dynamic where the woman may feel used and wonder where this going.



I find this way of thinking very antiquated and controlling!

This thinking suggest that men and women are too weak to control their own actions...
A man is captive to his sex drive...and will performe tasks to get sex.
Women are victims of sex and only have sex to get somethikng.

BS ...if you do someting including sex it should be because you WANT TO not because you WANT SOMETHING!

GAWD people, women can have sex because they CHOOSE'WANT to!
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 563
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/26/2010 6:44:21 PM

This thinking suggest that men and women are too weak to control their own actions...
A man is captive to his sex drive...and will performe tasks to get sex.

He he - given that my best friend is an escort and has told me more than once that ``men always kiss my azz,'' (in addition to paying her fee, if they're clients), there is at least a grain of truth to that.
 tie_me_up81
Joined: 3/30/2010
Msg: 564
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 11/26/2010 6:49:36 PM

Why do men find it hard to be friends?


Why do many (not all women) find it hard not to generalise men and paint most or all of them with the same brush?
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