Notice: Forums will be shutdown by June 2019

To focus on better serving our members, we've decided to shut down the POF forums.

While regular posting is now disabled, you can continue to view all threads until the end of June 2019. Event Hosts can still create and promote events while we work on a new and improved event creation service for you.

Thank you!

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Dating Experiences  >      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 MsMicki
Joined: 10/2/2006
Msg: 193
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?Page 6 of 44    (4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44)
It's almost funny that there is a complete role reversal here on the generalization that all men think with their diks!!
There are 3 women here trying to disprove that theory.......
and quite a few men here proving it!!



But don't consider guys bad who don't want sexual tension to be part of their friendships.

There is only "sexual tension" if you can do nothing but think about screwing your friend.
that doesn't make you "bad"........just makes you not friend material.
 ICMUD
Joined: 11/2/2009
Msg: 194
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/2/2010 9:16:57 PM
i have a question,

why is it when a women sends me a message saying she likes my profile or picture and i ask her if shes read my WHOLE profile and she says yes, i then tell her so you know im only looking for friendship and she asks me why only friendship, i reply, because i have a girl friends and are happy.. why do i not hear from them again??

im a nice guy and i can be a good friend too

anyways next
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 195
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 3:48:19 AM
I used to wonder why most of the women I was really attracted to, I just couldn't be friends with. Eventually, I realised that there were women I'd been great friends with, who I'd been really attracted to. But they'd treated me like a good friend, and so there just wasn't a problem.

The simple truth is that if you are good friends with someone, and you are attracted to them, then you get a great night out every night, so you'd rather keep the friendship, and what you get from the friendship is so good, that you really aren't bothered about the attraction. If you are good friends with someone, and you aren't attracted to them, then the same applies. To tell the truth, you don't really prefer one over the other.

But if you are not good friends with someone, like when he or she does not treat you as a good friend, then if you are not attracted to them, you will simply not hang out with them. If you are not treated as a good friend, but you are attracted, then you have no reason to hang out with them except that you are hoping something will happen. Eventually, you are putting in a lot more effort than any pleasure you expect to get back, and it stops being worth it to hang out with them. But because almost all of us have a sexual urge, we have to consciously choose to not hang out with such people, or the sexual urge will keep sending us back to them.

Basically, if a guy says that he cannot be friends, it means that you do not treat him like a good friend, but he is attracted to you sexually, and if not for that, he would ditch you. Face it.
 MsMicki
Joined: 10/2/2006
Msg: 196
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 6:55:15 AM

WIP: "Yeah, you misunderstood what I said. I make sure I build friendships with men I know I want to date and know they are mutually interested."


How I read that is ..........there is mutual attraction and she likes to start it out as friends. She has every intention of dating them. If the dating doesn't work out...then she can still consider them a friend....if he is willing to accept that role.

It's not that hard to grasp that concept!
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 197
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 8:06:39 AM

Did you drop hints to these men, or tell them outright? How else would they know that eventually you were going to date them, and separate them from the male friends you would never date? Both groups were "hot for you". You held all the cards in this deck, WIP.

You do understand the word "clearly", right? Yes it was an outright discussion, it usually is. It's like "I dig you". "I dig you too." "Lets hang out"....or something similar. If there's one thing you should know about me from the forums, it's that I'm far from vague. If anything I'm too honest.

Of course the good male friends who were hot for you know you don't gradually become interested. They're living proof. That's why they have "good male friend" status and not more. Again, you hold the cards.

Most of my good male friends don't have any interest in me. If they do it's as a colleague, a peer, etc. If they gradually become interested in me, that's pretty much their thing. Again, they know guys don't grow on me romantically. What cards am I holding? I wasn't aware I was playing cards - I mostly live life and don't pay much attention to shit like this. Again, that response is egocentric. People who live by their egos and sulk when they don't get what they want tend to view situations and/or make comments like that.

This is another Mars/Venus thing. There would easily be another 13 page long thread about the relationship between the male ego and confidence--what the definition of a "good man" is...swagger vs. arrogance, certitude vs. stubborness, masculine vs. macho, and what different women define as "manly"...etc.
We'll have to agree to disagree again.

I guess we will. I have known men who were confident, modest and had little ego or didn't use it to filter everything - so it IS possible. It's also attractive.

Again, that's a nice system you've got. Low risk, high reward.

Low risk and high reward for what? Are you assuming I go around seeking dates? Most of the time I stay single. Obviously from this conversation we're having, it's way too much work. A boyfriend isn't a reward I leave the house trying to win...don't assume because I am female that I'm typical.

Don't think it would work for me because if I treat a woman I'm attracted to as just a friend from the beginning, chances are that's where I'll end up. If I let her know that I want to date her up front, that's not really offering "friendship", is it?

If you know a woman's into you, wants to date you and doesn't want to jump into "insta-dating" but would rather get to know you first - you'd say no? Meh, that's your choice. What does treat her as a friend mean? All you're doing is going with the flow and sparing each other the "let's impress each other" bit of BS in the beginning. If you don't consider it offering friendship, then call it something else. What's the problem?

How I read that is ..........there is mutual attraction and she likes to start it out as friends. She has every intention of dating them. If the dating doesn't work out...then she can still consider them a friend....if he is willing to accept that role.

It's not that hard to grasp that concept!

It really isn't - but some people here are so caught up in the details that they can't see what's being posted. They must be wonderful out on dates - if their conversation here is any indication.
 MsMicki
Joined: 10/2/2006
Msg: 198
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 8:20:35 AM
So I went and checked out this "Ladder Theory".

Hard to take such a "scientific study" seriously that refers to women
as b!tches and gold diggers.


As far as intellectual whores can determine, the average female b!tch has a rating system that works like this:


I stopped reading when I got to the examples.
Jane meets nice guy Tom
Jane fuks biker dude..or Jane fuks unemployed Rick.

Yeah, real nice "scientific study".....does nothing but paint women with a broad
brush of demeaning generalizations.

Reminded me of every "Why do nice guys finish last" thread I've read here
 chrisofpa
Joined: 8/28/2009
Msg: 199
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 8:43:08 AM

Hard to take such a "scientific study" seriously that refers to women
as b!tches and gold diggers.


No, I think the point is more that of trying to understand the motivation of women. I think it is widely agreed that men are attracted to looks. Of course, there is a bell curve and that effect does vary among the population.

Human interaction is complex. I was a business major and had lots of MBA and post MBA courses related to psychology. However, it isn't until about 20 years later that I am starting to really begin to understand the interactions. .. and that is just for business relationships, not couples relationships.


I stopped reading when I got to the examples.


Well perhaps if you had a more open mind, you would have read through. I was something like a whopping 8 or 9 screens.


Yeah, real nice "scientific study".....does nothing but paint women with a broad brush of demeaning generalizations.


reminds me somewhat of some of the NOW literature i've read on the topic of men.

Seriously though, the facts seem to fit the hypothesis of the theory. The general concept is simply that women place men on one of two ladders, potential mate or friend. The other part of the theory is that it is extremely difficult for a man to jump from the friend ladder to the mate ladder. Thread after thread on these forums and other life experiences seem to prove that point.

There isn't necessarily a value system involved (ie good or bad) Rather, it is programming that evolved over tens of thousands of years to help women pick the best genes for their children. Radical feminism tries to downplay gender differences but the reality is that there are deep seated differences.

Many men and women simply don't look into why certain things are happening. My bet is that most of the pysch courses and textbooks will NOT cover anything like this. The faculty of most universities in the US is far left as study after study has proven. The cult of political correctness will not allow an honest discussion of the differences between the sexes.


Reminded me of every "Why do nice guys finish last" thread I've read here


Yep, over and over we see the same theme. Nice guys DO finish last (and the opposite of 'nice guy' is NOT 'jerk' or a-hole. However, society has created a bit of an illusion of how things really work over the last couple of decades. Once you see the guy behind the curtain, then things begin to make sense.

One final thought. Since I've gotten back into dating, I've ended up scaling the 'friends' ladder a number of times. Am I bitter? nope.. Being relegated to the 'friends' ladder was largely due to circumstances under my control. I can understand now why that was happening. Some minor changes on my part have resulted in that not happening nearly as much now.
 fastdogphotog
Joined: 5/27/2008
Msg: 200
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 10:11:18 AM
As I have watched this thread unfold, I have found myself continually shaking my head at so many of the posts, and nodding in agreement at just a few - WIP, MsMicki, and jco in particular. But the post above by chrisofpa made me want to comment again.

While I don’t agree with some of the details, I do think that the most basic premise of ladder theory accurately reflects reality for many people. However, there are definitely exceptions, and I also think it applies equally to some men as to women. I think one of the reasons why this thread has lingered on like a forum version of groundhog day is that some people are either unwilling or unable to accept that what may apply to the majority does not necessarily apply to all.

I also think that one of the reasons for the discord in this thread may simply be different value systems. In short, it appears that some guys don’t see any value to being on the “friendship ladder” with a woman they are attracted to. Fair enough. They are entitled to feel that way. However, they certainly don’t speak for me, and for several other men I know or who have posted in this thread or elsewhere in the forums.

Speaking solely for myself, I place an extremely high value on people, both men and women, who demonstrate that they are smart, kind, and replete with character and integrity. Sadly, after meeting somewhere over 150 people in the past year and a half through various social events and activities, mostly IRL but also a little on-line, I have come to the realization that these people are uncommon, to say the least.

As a result, when I meet a woman who has such traits and qualities, it inspires me to want to go out of my way to get to know her because of who she is, whether or not I am attracted to her. It makes me want to develop a friendship with her whether or not I am attracted to her otherwise. But if she isn’t interested in or attracted to me, I will still feel she is worth having in my life as a friend, just because she is a special person. In other words, not only don’t I mind “scaling the friendship ladder”, I find it has inherent value when it comes to women of substance.

And whereas at this age and stage of life I find that I am only really attracted to women who are complete, well balanced and well rounded, that means that I am fine with being friends with women I may be attracted to. But hey, that’s just me.
 RobertKoi
Joined: 11/9/2008
Msg: 201
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 10:33:04 AM
Maybe this thread should be closed once and for all since it's leading nowhere. If some people want to live in their own, little world thinking that they know exactly, precisely, what other men/women think, then so be it. The rest of us have our experiences to lean back on as well as millions of other cases. Ladder Theory says it all because that's just the way it is. A real man walks away or turns down such an offer to be friends with someone he's attracted to, period. There's no discussion. Only a fool sticks around.
 MsMicki
Joined: 10/2/2006
Msg: 202
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 12:00:17 PM

ICMUD:

"why is it when a women sends me a message saying she likes my profile or picture and i ask her if shes read my WHOLE profile and she says yes, i then tell her so you know im only looking for friendship and she asks me why only friendship, i reply, because i have a girl friends and are happy.. why do i not hear from them again??


Amboyace: You notice how none of the women getting on men's cases here have responded to YOUR post?


Maybe because we aren't the women he is talking about and have no idea what "those" women are thinking!!
It's no different than the point we are trying to make here.....
Not all men think alike.....and not all women think alike.
You cannot apply your opinions and theories to all people.
It just doesn't work that way.
 chrisofpa
Joined: 8/28/2009
Msg: 203
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 12:11:51 PM
notatowniegirl said


Anyone with such a simplistic view is going to be disappointed. What motivates one woman might not be what motivates the next.


If you hold this view, then you are saying that all motivational theory is useless. Motivational theories are not meant to be absolutes for all people but rather a general theory of the population. Most often, the population falls into some type of curve, usually a bell curve or perhaps a poisson distribution. In a bell curve, there will be people at the tails on both ends when you get 3 or more standard deviations from the norm.

Taking a different approach, let's look at survival behaviors. There is no way anyone could ever convince me to shove semtex up my butt or wrap it around my crotch. However, there are outlyers in the population who have done just that.

Models, by definition, attempt to simplify reality and distill it so that one has a better idea of the overall process.



Like I was saying, men like this have been told over and over again that women are all the same, that they're in "control", that given a chance we will f*ck men over as much as we can simply because we have vaginas. Even if a certain women doesn't act a certain way it's because they're just hiding their true nature.


That is YOUR interpretation of things. I don't see it that way. A couple of months ago I thought that all women were completely nuts. As ironic as it is, it was when I started reading Jeffries, Deangelo, Straus et al that I came to a different conclusion. Women weren't nuts, it was just that I didn't understand the way they thought (ok, in general. yes there are exceptions. However, real life deals with generalities in everything from air traffic control to education to finance to risk assessment to medical practice). We, as a rule, don't manage by exception. We manage to norms.

So, perhaps it is harmless that some guys will get thrown into the LJBF zone over and over and be happy about it. However, I look at it, for me, as a case of time being a very limited and valuable thing. Even a fictional character like the Timelord Dr. Who is limited by the availablility of a finite amount of time.



The ladder theory (and all the other theories popular right now) are just an easy out for people with horrible interpersonal skills... they can use it to place the blame elsewhere.


This is interesting. You rail against generalizations, yet you make a generalization here. ie. that people who believe in the ladder theory are merely compensating for poor interpersonal skills. You are the one assuming that something like a ladder theory is judgemental. I would offer that it is not. Why are you so afraid of it?

I doubt very much that CR or anyone else here will change the minds of the diehards. That is fine, I'm just hoping that men and women will be a little more open to exploring the dynamics of interpersonal relationships.

In the meantime, why can't we all just be friends ?? :)
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 204
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 12:12:20 PM

Well, just like YOU, it would depend if I'm attracted to her as well. If I am attracted to her, I have no problem whatsoever taking things slow. That's way different from treating her like one of the guys, and different from treating her like one of my platonic female friends. I don't have to maintain attraction with those groups.

In my case I don't want someone who wants to treat me differently than one of the guys or different from a platonic friend at first - it's those things that show me the guy I'm really dealing with. I guess it's my tomboy nature, but I like to deal with the real deal from day one. I assume treating a woman different than that for you means trying to impress her or involves presssure about where you both stand and where it's going prior to knowing each other real well. Blah. Too complicated. I'd rather relax, hang out and enjoy someone's company devoid of expectation.
 fastdogphotog
Joined: 5/27/2008
Msg: 205
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 12:21:52 PM

That's a fair quote. But reading your profile, and your quote there, I say you've run across PROBLEMS with cross-gender platonic friendship just like ICMUD.


You are right - I have, including a couple of interactions when I was on here looking for just friends that went similar to what ICMUD describes. Which is partly why I believe that a lot of people, both men and women alike, seem to have difficulties with cross-gender friendships when there is some level of attraction. But that doesn't mean that everyone does, or that "only fools stick around". Besides, what is that old adage about nothing worth it being easy?
 fastdogphotog
Joined: 5/27/2008
Msg: 206
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 12:49:27 PM

So, perhaps it is harmless that some guys will get thrown into the LJBF zone over and over and be happy about it. However, I look at it, for me, as a case of time being a very limited and valuable thing. Even a fictional character like the Timelord Dr. Who is limited by the availablility of a finite amount of time.


If they are happy with it - that is their business. But note that, just because someone may be fine being in the LJBF zone, does not mean that they "get thrown" there "over and over".

You are spot on about time being limited and valuable. Which is why I consider it so important to foster and maintain connections with compatible and interesting people of quality and substance, specifically including women I might be interested in but might not be interested in me. IME, while it is not all that hard to find a date, these people are indeed hard to find.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 207
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 2:22:04 PM
WIP,

It's still childish to react badly over it. It's not going to change anything. Life isn't always going to throw you a bouquet of roses, nor should it. If we always got our way we'd never learn anything.

Who said anything about reacting badly? There was never anything remotely implied about reacting badly. The topic is simple -- Micki said that if a girl pulls the "let's be friends" line, it's your loss if you don't take it. Said guy's intention & feelings was not about being friends, but more than friends which she cut off. He lost. NOTHING was said about reacting badly at all.

If I don't have an opportunity with a guy who's not interested in dating me in the first place, there is no loss. If I am dating someone who decides they no longer want to date me, that's not a personal loss to me - because the person is choosing to end it. A loss is an abduction, a death, something the person has no control over.

It's a loss of an opportunity. A loss can be something you can control -- like losing your keys. A loss can also be something you had partial or no control over, but it'd be incorrect to define it universally as something you have no control over. But here's the kicker, WIP... this is in reference to what Micki said. If I was "chasing" a gal and end up meeting up once or twice let's say, and after things have unfolded for a while and she said "let's just be friends", and one is going to say there is a "loss" to be had -- Micki says it'd be my loss to decline being just friends and moving on. I say if there is a "loss" to be had, it would have been that I lost the opportunity to garner her interest, regardless of what level of interest she may or may not have had in the first place. I think maybe you would say there would be no loss either way. I am not saying one HAS to use the word "loss", but if it is to be used in that very-common situation, the person who was chasing lost their chance -- whether it be keeping interest, or generating interest.

Trying to make it a victim/predator scenario in your head to massage an ego you should have left at home is separate from what's going on.

I think you're too hasty on calling everything "ego-based", and folks who do usually are overly protective of their own. If I can't handle the word "loss", I would have a pretty fragile ego I'd be trying to protect. Unlike you, I can be perfectly fine using the word "loss" on an opportunity without risk of "reacting badly" if I do. Why in the world would accepting something technically as a loss be inflating an ego? Someone with an over-sized ego would never see anything they do as losing, and to protect it they'd run away from that word like the plague. I think you have it backwards my dear. :)

Others:
"If you know a woman's into you, wants to date you and doesn't want to jump into "insta-dating" but would rather get to know you first - you'd say no? Meh, that's your choice."

I think this quote indirectly brings up something interesting. When you "get to know someone first" that doesn't mean you're JUST friends. By physical/sexual action? Sure, as long as there's no touching and kissing. But that doesn't make you JUST friends. If you go out one-on-one "getting to know each other" you're in the pre-dating phase. JUST friends means there's no difference in any actions or communication than two guys at a sports bar. And it's obviously not JUST friends, otherwise, after "getting to know each other", nobody would ever say "let's just be friends" -- if you were just friends in the first place.

Which is partly why I believe that a lot of people, both men and women alike, seem to have difficulties with cross-gender friendships when there is some level of attraction. But that doesn't mean that everyone does, or that "only fools stick around".

Well, one can have attraction on a mild level combined with no interest of actually dating them, and it can be fine. The fools who stick around -- that's in reference to chasing someone, they get denied, still have a desire to be with them even when they are denied, and stick around because they can't let go or think they'll have a worthwhile shot at making them interested (which is extremely low low chance, not worth it).
 ICMUD
Joined: 11/2/2009
Msg: 208
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 3:28:12 PM

ICMUD:
"why is it when a women sends me a message saying she likes my profile or picture and i ask her if shes read my WHOLE profile and she says yes, i then tell her so you know im only looking for friendship and she asks me why only friendship, i reply, because i have a girl friends and are happy.. why do i not hear from them again??

You notice how none of the women getting on men's cases here have responded to YOUR post?


i hear you brother and and it is a little two faced as it dont matter who you are, what u look like, where u live etc, friends are just that.. FRIENDS.. some ladies may reply, but there not looking for friends and looking for a partner and thats fine also as i dont really care alot and only true friends will be approachable or approach me and thats fine to.. there is just wayyyyyyyyy to much competition on this forum where the ladies feel its a battle fieldand men trying to defend or vice versa and im really over it.. the MAN HATERS should just really pull there heads in and move on as this is a dating site and i really dont see how coming in here and expressing anger due to what some lame men have done to them as not all men are the same and theres some really great guys/girls on here and all it takes is for less b1tching and more mingling and everyone will get along fine..

all i know is i live in a modern day and age where guys & girls get along and take things as they come and both will approach, pay, enjoy etc and just be happy.. not seeing this on this forum and to be honest its just the pitts and im glad i live wayyyyy on the other side of the world to most..
im happy to be friends with anyone, but if your one of the above mentioned, please save your time and mine and leave me out of it thanx.. i so hate these debates!!
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 209
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 5:11:21 PM

For me I do want to make a good impression, especially if she doesn't know me that well. It's the "get to know each other better" stage and since she's going to see my flaws and issues anyway, I want to make sure she sees me at my best as well. Maybe the first few times out with her, I pay more attention to what I wear. I'll leave the jerseys and sweats in the closet. I might even iron a few things :-). Honestly, my buddies don't care what I throw on when we're out watching a game or something.

Wardrobe and doing things in places that may require dressing more formal isn't what I mean. What I mean is how you act, being on constant guard with behavior, and yes - being able to hang out in jeans or sweats once in awhile.

I don't even think about cologne when I'm hanging with my boys, but with someone new...I'll definitely go there. My female friends couldn't care less about my goatee, but I'll probably spend a bit more time in the mirror with a razor before we hang out.

I'd say stuff like that should be done to please yourself overall, and from there if people are impressed with it, it's a bonus.

It might even be something corny like winning her a stuffed animal at the carnival, or a cute birthday card. I try to put in a little extra effort, to make her know I think she's special.

Maybe that's not all men. I know that's how it is for me.

This stuff is great once you decide to start dating - even if it's after building a friendship. I'd rather know what I'm dealing with from the beginning than have someone change back to normal once they feel I'm hooked. It also spares me from having to go through that fake initial stage - I'm not good with faking it.

Who said anything about reacting badly? There was never anything remotely implied about reacting badly. The topic is simple -- Micki said that if a girl pulls the "let's be friends" line, it's your loss if you don't take it. Said guy's intention & feelings was not about being friends, but more than friends which she cut off. He lost. NOTHING was said about reacting badly at all.

The implication that someone offers you friendship as a consolation prize, or second place, or anything that implies loss or someone else getting something you feel you should or could have had, isn't exactly positive. Bottom line here is that if dating frustrates a person they may need to leave the scene and come back.

It's a loss of an opportunity. A loss can be something you can control -- like losing your keys.

Keys are inanimate, so a loss of keys is different. If the keys up and walked off, it wouldn't be a loss but a choice. I will also point out, again, that in order to lose keys you had to HAVE HAD THEM FIRST.

In a situation where you never date someone because they're not into you - there was no ACTUAL opportunity in the first place. What you dream up is not the issue here.

A loss can also be something you had partial or no control over, but it'd be incorrect to define it universally as something you have no control over. But here's the kicker, WIP... this is in reference to what Micki said. If I was "chasing" a gal and end up meeting up once or twice let's say, and after things have unfolded for a while and she said "let's just be friends", and one is going to say there is a "loss" to be had -- Micki says it'd be my loss to decline being just friends and moving on. I say if there is a "loss" to be had, it would have been that I lost the opportunity to garner her interest, regardless of what level of interest she may or may not have had in the first place. I think maybe you would say there would be no loss either way. I am not saying one HAS to use the word "loss", but if it is to be used in that very-common situation, the person who was chasing lost their chance -- whether it be keeping interest, or generating interest.

The concept of "generating interest" is something that also comes from a self serving ego. We can't "create" interest, we can only enhance or kill it based on what we do or how we act. If it's not there from day one, we cannot put it there. To some extent not keeping interest is just as much a thing we can't control because it's usually who we are that determines that - as in not a match with someone else.

And you're right, I don't think it's a loss either way. If someone truly doesn't want something they aren't going to consider it a loss. It's also not a loss for the thing they don't want. It's a win-win deal to me. It's not where someone is, it's where they want to be that really matters.

I think you're too hasty on calling everything "ego-based", and folks who do usually are overly protective of their own.

That's a convenient projection...not accurate, but if it were, boy would you have a handle on this discussion.

If I can't handle the word "loss", I would have a pretty fragile ego I'd be trying to protect.

I agree. I don't suppose you're calling my misuse of a word a personal issue.

Unlike you, I can be perfectly fine using the word "loss" on an opportunity without risk of "reacting badly" if I do.

I can too, but in this particular context I think it's too self serving...and what happens happens. How we choose to justify it doesn't usually change anything.

Why in the world would accepting something technically as a loss be inflating an ego? Someone with an over-sized ego would never see anything they do as losing, and to protect it they'd run away from that word like the plague. I think you have it backwards my dear. :)

Stating it's a loss (IMO) basically puts the spotlight on the person who feels rejected as a victim. It's basically self focused - good or bad. Basically it's a viewpoint that all is an extension of yourself. That's sort of a sheltered way to deal with it. It's like shyness being a twisted form of narcissism. Sounds strange, but it's a case where someone is so focused on themselves that they assume others are too.

Then again, I tend to look at it that way when I go through it - as in people do what they want to do. I can make it all about me which is pointless, or I can realize it happens everyday and know it's probably for the best.

I think this quote indirectly brings up something interesting. When you "get to know someone first" that doesn't mean you're JUST friends.

I know, thus the phrase "friends first". "Just Friends" would be platonic.

By physical/sexual action? Sure, as long as there's no touching and kissing. But that doesn't make you JUST friends.

Again, I know this.

If you go out one-on-one "getting to know each other" you're in the pre-dating phase. JUST friends means there's no difference in any actions or communication than two guys at a sports bar.

Which is more what I am hoping for honestly. It's not always one on one and it's not always NOT in casual company. A sports bar ain't a bad idea at a time like that.

And it's obviously not JUST friends, otherwise, after "getting to know each other", nobody would ever say "let's just be friends" -- if you were just friends in the first place.

I don't say that, so I agree - but thanks for confirming what I already stated.

Would YOU want him doing all the THINGS and spending the TIME with his friend-that-is-hot-that-he-always-wanted-to-have-sex-with withOUT you along?

Who said anything here about being in a (serious) relationship and hanging out with friends of EITHER sex on the sly? That's a red flag regardless of the situation. As long as everyone's above board about it I could care less. Then again I don't get jealous of women who once wanted an SO of mine while he was single. Common sense would dictate that if he wanted her he'd have already gone there. I'd be much better off paying attention to women he hasn't met yet.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 210
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 5:14:00 PM
RE Msg: 316 by chrisofpa:

Hard to take such a "scientific study" seriously that refers to women
as b!tches and gold diggers.
No, I think the point is more that of trying to understand the motivation of women. I think it is widely agreed that men are attracted to looks. Of course, there is a bell curve and that effect does vary among the population.
Ladder theory actually applies to men as well as women.

Ladder theory in men, is when men will date women they aren't that interested in, or will claim to be dating lots of women, just to make themselves seem more desirable to the women they want to date.

As Ari Gold said in Entourage: "It's like high school. You can't f*ck the prom queen until she finds out her best friend jerked you off underneath the bleachers!"
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 211
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 6:35:39 PM
WIP,

The implication that someone offers you friendship as a consolation prize, or second place, or anything that implies loss or someone else getting something you feel you should or could have had, isn't exactly positive.

They aren't offering it to you AS a consolation prize, as there's (usually) no intent at all about that. It just is a consolation prize if you'll "take what you can get." And no, it isn't a positive experience, but that doesn't mean one would react badly. You don't have to brainwash yourself to see everything in life as overall positive in order to prevent yourself from reacting badly. Again, reacting badly was never mentioned, justified, implied, etc.

Keys are inanimate, so a loss of keys is different. If the keys up and walked off, it wouldn't be a loss but a choice.

You're avoiding the issue. The issue was that a loss can be something you can/could control. You stated that a loss is something you can't control, which is really really odd of you to say.

In a situation where you never date someone because they're not into you - there was no ACTUAL opportunity in the first place.

BS. You could easily end up never dating someone.... You had an opportunity in the first place, but they ended up not being that into you, hence, you never ended up dating them. They could have been "on the fence", "not that interested, but I'll give it a chance", or even interested in the beginning, but lost interest and decided not to move into the dating phase with you.

We can't "create" interest, we can only enhance or kill it based on what we do or how we act.

Highly disagree. People can influence people, thus people can generate interest. You can get technical and say you alone don't create interest in someone else 100%, but I say it in this sense: Guy walks up to girl in bar and says hello. Girl thinks he's okkkay, just another standard guy, not really interested but he seems harmless. Guy is charming and strikes a chord with her. Guy being charming in the way that he happened to do it "generated" interest. Now, let's avoid arguing over technical details about to what extent he's responsible for instilling romantic interest in her (with her psyche playing a role of accepting it). The point is, one can be with someone who doesn't have dating interest, but they can win them over. Yes, sometimes its a waste of time, especially if they don't like you (lol). But that's not the point. If your mission was to generate interest in them, and your attempt failed, you "lost". If my mission was to beat Shaq in one-on-one basketball, and he crushed me, you could say "you never had a chance", it doesn't mean I didn't lose.

I can too, but in this particular context I think it's too self serving

How in the world is me saying I lost out on my attempt to win a girl over self-serving? Calling it a loss, as opposed to NOT calling it a loss is self-serving? lol

Stating it's a loss (IMO) basically puts the spotlight on the person who feels rejected as a victim ... It's basically self focused - good or bad.

Okay, I call it a loss, and I'm a victim? Losing something doesn't mean you did anything wrong. I could play a game to the best of my ability (against Shaq?) and lose. I was not a victim to anything, nor would my gameplay be flawed. Self focused? One should be self aware. I think you're afraid of the word loss and seeing in terms of victimhood at all times sheds light on it. Again, those who are scared of the term loss shows that they're emotionally sensitive to the notion -- how is someone who is able to be realistic, even about some negative things that come their way and not be fearful of the word "loss" some ego-inflated, self-serving person? I totally disagree, sorry.

I know, thus the phrase "friends first". "Just Friends" would be platonic.

Well, my quotes in this section weren't spoken to you, it was to everyone, so the following statement "Again, I know" and other responses wasn't necessary, since I wasn't speaking directly to ya. But if that helps to boost your ego, more power to ya. ;)

But, I disagree with that quote you said there. The phrase "Friends First" implies being friends BEFORE something. What is that something? More than friends. More than friends means not platonic. So you're friends first, before being more than friends. Thus, "friends first" directly implies being Just Friends.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 212
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 7:43:18 PM

They aren't offering it to you AS a consolation prize, as there's (usually) no intent at all about that. It just is a consolation prize if you'll "take what you can get." And no, it isn't a positive experience, but that doesn't mean one would react badly. You don't have to brainwash yourself to see everything in life as overall positive in order to prevent yourself from reacting badly. Again, reacting badly was never mentioned, justified, implied, etc.

I just think that looking at is as anything other than the person likes you as a person and isn't attracted to you not of their own choice, then it's a negative dynamic. To me dating is like a game of match. You flip a bunch of cards upside down and turn over two at a time until you get a match. A non-match is just that. There's nothing more complicated to it than that. If you cannot be friends because you want more, than you make it clear and decline. End of story. It's not positive or negative. It just is. *shrug*

You're avoiding the issue. The issue was that a loss can be something you can/could control. You stated that a loss is something you can't control, which is really really odd of you to say.

We're talking about circumstances where other people are involved, which means it's almost never possible to control an interaction. I didn't include losing something that can't make a choice independently (like an inanimate object) because I didn't think it was relevant to this thread. Since you brought it up, that's my view on it. I could be ultra technical and say a loss is a choice with inanimate objects too since it's you that causes it, but I digress.

BS. You could easily end up never dating someone.... You had an opportunity in the first place, but they ended up not being that into you, hence, you never ended up dating them. They could have been "on the fence", "not that interested, but I'll give it a chance", or even interested in the beginning, but lost interest and decided not to move into the dating phase with you.

All that's not interested enough for me to consider it an opportunity - at least not one that's healthy for me to participate in. On the fence or lukewarm to me is a waste of my time. And to me that's not a missed or lost opportunity.

Highly disagree. People can influence people, thus people can generate interest. You can get technical and say you alone don't create interest in someone else 100%, but I say it in this sense: Guy walks up to girl in bar and says hello. Girl thinks he's okkkay, just another standard guy, not really interested but he seems harmless. Guy is charming and strikes a chord with her. Guy being charming in the way that he happened to do it "generated" interest. Now, let's avoid arguing over technical details about to what extent he's responsible for instilling romantic interest in her (with her psyche playing a role of accepting it). The point is, one can be with someone who doesn't have dating interest, but they can win them over. Yes, sometimes its a waste of time, especially if they don't like you (lol). But that's not the point. If your mission was to generate interest in them, and your attempt failed, you "lost". If my mission was to beat Shaq in one-on-one basketball, and he crushed me, you could say "you never had a chance", it doesn't mean I didn't lose.

Ugh - way too much analyzation going on there, no wonder I don't date much. To me a person either gets your attention before they speak or they don't. From there they can become interesting (maybe you mean something other than attraction), but that's different from dateable. In my case, the case of most of my female friends, women in this thread and hundreds of women I have talked to over the years, it's either there from the beginning or it's not. If there is attraction, what's beyond the physical can totally be intensified by who they are, or become a "oh, that's too bad" deal where they say or do something to change your mind.

Dating, unlike basketball isn't a sport of win or lose. All the skill and technique in the world won't work with a girl who doesn't feel any attraction (and vice versa).

How in the world is me saying I lost out on my attempt to win a girl over self-serving? Calling it a loss, as opposed to NOT calling it a loss is self-serving? lol

It is if you're centering it around YOU, as opposed to the fact that generally all people don't click. If you are making the non loss in relation to yourself, then that's also self serving. Stepping back and realizing that this is life and odds are that not all you like will like you back is not about you. You can't change it, you didn't choose it, it wasn't a personal issue.

Okay, I call it a loss, and I'm a victim?

I don't know, are you? I don't specifically recall labeling you personally anything. My "you" is typically collective. It sort of segues a later point I plan to make though.

Losing something doesn't mean you did anything wrong. I could play a game to the best of my ability (against Shaq?) and lose. I was not a victim to anything, nor would my gameplay be flawed. Self focused? One should be self aware. I think you're afraid of the word loss and seeing in terms of victimhood at all times sheds light on it.

Let's not focus this on my personal life - most who do assume they know why I think the way I do. And don't do the thing where you think there's fear fueling a disagreeement - it's basically an alternate viewpoint. It's just as valid for me to think you fear NOT viewing things as a loss.

Again, those who are scared of the term loss shows that they're emotionally sensitive to the notion -- how is someone who is able to be realistic, even about some negative things that come their way and not be fearful of the word "loss" some ego-inflated, self-serving person? I totally disagree, sorry.

Acutally realism is where most of my view comes from. It's not always about a person and what they can do or not in a situation that involves other people. It's pretty common that most things are not about one person, but a pattern, or a bigger thing like odds.

I am a realist to the fact that most people aren't as special as they'd like to think they are. While some people drive others away, most didn't have the ability to hold them in the first place. A lot of the time you tend to deal with the circumstance of someone doing something that affects you, but they don't set out to do it specifically TO you.

Since attraction is something NEITHER person can control, but is usually absolute even if not fully apparent in the first couple dates, there's no conclusion you can draw from it other than it's just two people who are not mutually interested. Since MOST chemistry is one sided - you can pretty much say it's common, to be expected, and it's best not to try and analyze it as anything other than "life".
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 213
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 9:10:30 PM

Which is what I've been saying for the past few days. That decision to not accept an offer of friendship is not positive or negative, childish or immature. We AGREE.

I never disagreed with this - in earlier posts I already stated that I have no problem with it so long as a guy is honest about it - I think most women would understand if it was actually explained. My point was only that the offer isn't with any bad intentions for all the guys posting that are saying things like " she wants to have her cake and eat it too"...rather someone may just like you as a person despite lack of attraction and genuinely want to continue talking with you.

OK...our discussion on "friends first" behavior, where she's getting to know you. Those things I talked about that you didn't personally think were that much of a big deal, have turned out in the past to be big deals for other women. There are FAR too many threads and posts by women on this board about deal breakers and red flags to ignore. YOU may want to see every wart, character flaw and blemish a guy has in his closet upfront BEFORE you consider "dating" him, but there are many women who don't.

Those same women also post threads asking why a guy was so wonderful and then after a couple months everything levels off. To each their own.

Second, attraction can be "created". There are women on dating sites who make graduate degrees a minimum requirement, or six-figure income level. Others profess an attraction to certain " fashion looks" or attitudes. Religion and levels of devotion are important to others.
Outside of height and race, all these things can be obtained.

You're confusing preference/requirement with attraction.

I might be attracted to a homeless guy, but I prefer dating a guy who's not homeless. Who you are physically drawn to is not something that can be created. You can totally think a guy's attractive but reject him based on some criteria you would rather have to date him, such as type of dress, attitude, social or financial status, intelligence, etc.
 1234deleted1234
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 214
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/3/2010 9:51:21 PM
Oh GAWD! I just can keep reading all of these messages that require me to scroll down to continue reading them!!
 ICMUD
Joined: 11/2/2009
Msg: 215
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/4/2010 2:39:44 AM

Ain't it cool? We're only up to page 14!


well there goes another 2 friends

soon as they find out i have a g/f, presto there gone

i swear ladies im a nice guy i promise

now to go add it in the profile so its more clear.. hate loosing friends
 RobertKoi
Joined: 11/9/2008
Msg: 217
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/4/2010 7:33:25 AM
scd: I believe that this discussion wasn't only limited to dating sites. It's about the "phenomenon" where a guy allows himself to be used and downgraded to "friends" with a woman he's attracted to. Any guy with some self respect won't. It's plain stupid. But I'll leave it at that since this thread isn't going to solve the issue anyway. Some people believe in ghosts, others don't.
 smithwhitehawk1
Joined: 5/26/2007
Msg: 218
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/4/2010 8:18:40 AM
Scd
Men on this thread have ,I think made it clear our reasons for not accepting ljbf
from a woman we wanted to date.
It is true that under the right conditions it could happen,but not after the friends speech.
I do not give friendship to just anyone, just as women reserve the right to date only
those they deem worthy, men have the same right about friendship.
True friendship requires effort and time,and most women don't care to do this.
That is how they can have so many friends, we are not seen as friends ,just men
on her inactive list until she has need of us.
I look at female friendships like this.
You need to put as much into it as expect from me.Then we can build up a
friendship from there.
A lot of women posters on here are just defending there use of the 2 ladder
system and want men to be blind to her want for 2 ladders and what one a guy
is really on.
Hawk
Show ALL Forums  > Dating Experiences  >