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 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 219
Why do men find it hard to be friends?Page 7 of 44    (4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44)

I disagree. Chippendales and male reviews wouldn't be as successful.

Chippendales are successful for the same reason strip clubs are successful: people are naked. Men will tell you there are quite a few female strippers they don't have any interest in, and women who like male strippers will tell you there is usually a certain stripper or two they actually find attractive. The rest is just gender bonding over alcohol and looking at the opposite gender.

Cosmetic surgery for men wouldn't be a multi-million dollar industry. Hair Club for Men wouldn't be in business. Male Gym memberships would be only about health and cardio, and the teeth-whitening/capping/ veneer industry wouldn't make half as much.

That's all about staying attractive or enhancing things and becoming MORE attractive, not creating attraction where it didn't exist before. It's also not just about dating. Many of those things are about better health and looking in the mirror.

Now, WIP...you might have a certain physical type or look that attracts you. You might have many, I don't know what your particular "thing" is--but the appearance of strength, virility and physical prowess is considered evolutionary in attractiveness to women according to scientific studies.

IN A MAN THEY ARE PHYSICALLY ATTRACTED TO, those qualities are going to ENHANCE the deal for some women. Seldom do those qualities actually make a woman like a man she didn't like before. All traits like that are only effective when physical attraction between two people click first.

Many men also may interpret that to mean arrogance, pushiness, aggressiveness, sleeping around and bad boy type behavior, and it's not.

I know...that's a lot of stuff to digest...but attractiveness CAN be created, because there's a blueprint for it. It might not be EVERYBODY's idea of attractive, but as I've shown, there is SCIENCE behind this.

I'm talking about being able to create attractiveness in another person in an everyday scenario, not a petrie dish. One person cannot personally make a specific person attracted to them. They either are or aren't. One can only build on what's already there, or realize nothing is and move on.

P.S. The men who posted the last 4 messages prove my point. I'd take those to be negative attitudes about women who extend friendship. While I don't disagree with a man who doesn't want to accept a friendship, I disagree with the bitter attitude that doing so makes you a victim of her, a doormat, or anything else.

Just say no thanks and move on...the commentary says more about you than her, IMO.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 222
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/4/2010 9:58:53 AM

I just dont see why a man choosing not to be a woman friend after being rejected is such a big deal to the point where it's now being deemed childish. Maybe because the man is now being the rejector and the woman offering friendship is now the rejected.

It's very adult to decline (with your honest explanation) a friendship should it be offered. What's childish to me is viewing it as an insult that you were asked, and a loss that she wasn't interested.

I agree with you WIP. I guess I am talking about the women who shout from the rooftops they want to be friends before a relationship.

I once "dated" a woman for about a month, didnt get a kiss, nothing. It didnt really bother me, but after a month I asked her the following question. "whats up?...are we dating?"....her answer...

I am really not looking for anything right now, I date and go out and have fun. I like hanging out with you, hopefully we can still hang out...

I never called her back again. She text me about a week later calling me "insecure", and that I gave up too easily.

Well in your case I understand. I tend to like friendship first, but my version of that is different - I will actually let someone know where they stand also. I'd write that off as one person who wasn't exactly sure what she wanted.


If I would have known she had NO intention of any physically relationship with a man I never would have even contacted her. Yes, I know. It may have been just been me that she didnt want a relationship with...I get that. She didnt really express that when I am paying for the dates, picking her up...you know..like its dating..

and before somebody jumps down on me...I have no problem paying for dates..its not the issue...

I totally agree - previous to beginning a dating relationship, friendship should be just that. Two people hanging out with no expectation, so I agree that a man shouldn't be expected to pay for anything (honestly I don't think men should be expected to always pay even if two people ARE dating, but that's his choice).

Nothing negative but actual facts. The guy is not worthy to date then the woman not only rejects him but thinks its acceptable to kick him to the kerb with a "lets be friends" label attached to his ass.

For you, it's better not to date at all. If this is your view - then clearly staying away from women is a healthy choice for you. My question is this: If you view it as being kicked to the curb to be offered friendship, then how do you take it when someone tells you they're not interested and to lose their number? Do you prefer women to tell you no a certain way - or do you just hate the fact that it's a no regardless? Your jaded view here implies that she CHOSE not to be attracted to you, and took pleasure in it.

I'll reverse it for emphasis:
I'm sure if you ever offer friendship to a woman you have no attraction to but enjoy hanging out with, the same applies. You're saying she's not worthy to date, and you're hanging on to her so you can talk to her about all the women you're planning to date. You also think it's acceptable to kick her to the curb by saying let's just be friends. Any woman you have no attraction to but you're polite to is irrelevant. You're a jerk anyway....do you see how childish all that sounds?

I said it before - this crap comes from men with a little too much ego to realize it's not always all about them. You're assuming women actually have the time and interest to specifically target you and make you feel bad. Truth is, you're not that important.

Some of you women have some really strange views and men who play along are no better.

Play along with what? Some of you men think about this crap WAY too much. If dating's not any fun for you, and you have to spin theories about it to get through it without feeling horrible, maybe it's time you leave the scene and go find something to do with a better payoff.
 chrisofpa
Joined: 8/28/2009
Msg: 223
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/4/2010 12:16:22 PM

I'll reverse it for emphasis:
I'm sure if you ever offer friendship to a woman you have no attraction to but enjoy hanging out with, the same applies. You're saying she's not worthy to date, and you're hanging on to her so you can talk to her about all the women you're planning to date. You also think it's acceptable to kick her to the curb by saying let's just be friends. Any woman you have no attraction to but you're polite to is irrelevant. You're a jerk anyway....do you see how childish all that sounds?


I would agree with your premise IF men and women were wired the same. IN GENERAL, however

1. Women will use the LJBF a lot more than men will
2. Women use the LJBF as a tool in a way that most men won't
3. Many men are completely unaware of WHY they have been put into a LJBF.
4. Many men really want to pursue a relationship with their 'friend', sexual or otherwise, but have no clue that the odds of that happening are nearly nil.

Your analogy is a bit of apples and oranges if one accepts the premise that men and women are programmed differently and have different inherent motivations.



Play along with what? Some of you men think about this crap WAY too much. If dating's not any fun for you, and you have to spin theories about it to get through it without feeling horrible, maybe it's time you leave the scene and go find something to do with a better payoff.


Try the old Indian saying about walking a mile in someone's moccasins.

The problem isn't that men think about it too much, it is that many men DON"T THINK ABOUT IT AT ALL. What happens is they keep ending up in a cycle of

1. Meet a woman
2. Get her to go on a date
3. Take her to a nice romantic dinner and spend a couple of hours on fluff talk
4. Perhaps repeat for a second and maybe a third date. The guy thinks things are going well.
5. The guy calls and gets the "I like you but I think we should just be friends"

Now comes the decision tree. There are a couple of possibilities.

1. The guy thinks " Hey, She's hot but I know I've got the LJBF stamp and will never fvck her or be her bf. However, that's cool with me, she's a good pool player". OK, no problem here, the guy realizes what is happening and rolls with it. Perhaps the guy is a bit of a player who is up to his ears in women anyway and, because he isn't needy, doesn't care.

2. The guy thinks "Screw her, I'm not wasting my time. Adios".. OK, that works for the guy. However, some of the women here will consider that to be childish. I consider it good time management.

3. The guy thinks "Hey, I'm really attracted to her. If I am a good friend, I know I can get her interested in me (sexually/as a bf). THIS is where the problem lies. The guy has fallen into a pit and isn't even aware that there is no way out. When I was in the martial arts, our instructor always pushed us to 'try to reach awareness'. IOW, don't always flow with things but try to understand what is happening and why. In this case, a guy who is oblivious will usually have a nagging sense of frustration and not understand why he is having that.

The pickup community tag of AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) is dead on. Before I started to understand that there are fundamental differences between men and women in relationships, I was frustrated and a bit bitter. Now I'm having the time of my life. If I get the LJBF it isn't that the woman is a b*tch, as I used to think. It is just that there was no chemistry or attraction. That was either (1) fate or (2) that I failed to do what was necessary to allow the attraction to develop.

Taking that attitude, I've had a bunch of dates in the last two months and I can say I've enjoyed them all. Where I've gotten the LJBF I've usually declined. However, I still can say that the first date or two was fun. I'm going in with no expectations. Just roll with things. (No that isn't in contradiction to the 'awareness' thing. the idea is that the awareness is now there so I can autopilot that part of my life)
 RobertKoi
Joined: 11/9/2008
Msg: 224
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/4/2010 12:33:15 PM
wetfish77: "About 75% of my friends are male. I grew up around my uncles. They took me hunting, trapping, fishing, fixing cars, playing pool, etc. Now they sit back and chuckle because I know how to communicate with men."
-----------------
You know, I seriously think that if a girl grows up in an environment where there's a lot men - brother(s), father, his friends, uncles, etc. etc., then yeah, I'm sure that it will definitely change her view of how men operate. She might even identify herself with other men, share their views and so forth. Now, that certainly won't appeal to most men since a woman's supposed to be as feminine as possible. But obviously she won't BE very feminine having grown up in a "world" like that. Just like a boy needs to hang around men to become a man, a girl needs women to become a woman. That's my belief. We need both parents - both "worlds". The reason I bring this up is because I've heard women tell me how they grew up just you did. I'm absolutely not saying that you aren't feminine (how would I know...), but there are cases when that is the case.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 225
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/4/2010 1:19:53 PM

I would agree with your premise IF men and women were wired the same. IN GENERAL, however

1. Women will use the LJBF a lot more than men will

I will admit women tend to value humans a lot more beyond their use or purpose, and might like a guy for who he is despite not being attracted. Agreed.

2. Women use the LJBF as a tool in a way that most men won't

Certain women do. However there is a small amount of exception to every rule. You're likely to find a human who's capable of anything you fear to some extent.

3. Many men are completely unaware of WHY they have been put into a LJBF.

THIS is part of my main point. They're not "put" there. They were always there, and may have at some point either hoped for, assumed or not had enough information. There's usually no point at which a guy in the friend zone was ever anywhere else. The only thing that changes is they become aware of it.

The "why" isn't applicable. There's nothing they did or didn't do that causes it, outside basic lack of mutual attraction, which happens to everyone. The difference here is that these men likely found a woman they were into and tried to impress her without knowing first whether or not she was into him.

4. Many men really want to pursue a relationship with their 'friend', sexual or otherwise, but have no clue that the odds of that happening are nearly nil.

At some point will they be getting that clue? After one or two times, it isn't rocket science.

Your analogy is a bit of apples and oranges if one accepts the premise that men and women are programmed differently and have different inherent motivations.

My point was that while you're hurt you may want to point a finger at someone and blame them for doing something to you that's typical and happens to everyone. Labeling all women who offer friendship manipulative and horrible may make you feel better, but it's defamation of character - and clearly you're biased to that when on the receiving end.

Instead of saying you won't fall into her "trap" when likely there isn't one except in your head, why not bow out with some class and simply say "hey, I appreciate the offer, but I can't stay friends with someone I want more from."?

The problem isn't that men think about it too much, it is that many men DON"T THINK ABOUT IT AT ALL. What happens is they keep ending up in a cycle of

1. Meet a woman
2. Get her to go on a date
3. Take her to a nice romantic dinner and spend a couple of hours on fluff talk
4. Perhaps repeat for a second and maybe a third date. The guy thinks things are going well.
5. The guy calls and gets the "I like you but I think we should just be friends"

And of course this is based on "get the contact first, worry about the details later" which causes men to overlook some HUGE signs that there's no interest.

Now comes the decision tree. There are a couple of possibilities.

1. The guy thinks " Hey, She's hot but I know I've got the LJBF stamp and will never fvck her or be her bf. However, that's cool with me, she's a good pool player". OK, no problem here, the guy realizes what is happening and rolls with it. Perhaps the guy is a bit of a player who is up to his ears in women anyway and, because he isn't needy, doesn't care.

I don't think a man has to be swimming in women to not be needy, but that's for another thread.

2. The guy thinks "Screw her, I'm not wasting my time. Adios".. OK, that works for the guy. However, some of the women here will consider that to be childish. I consider it good time management.

The negative reaction is what I'm curious about. Why not just say "oh well" and move on? You waste no more time with that angle.

3. The guy thinks "Hey, I'm really attracted to her. If I am a good friend, I know I can get her interested in me (sexually/as a bf). THIS is where the problem lies. The guy has fallen into a pit and isn't even aware that there is no way out. When I was in the martial arts, our instructor always pushed us to 'try to reach awareness'. IOW, don't always flow with things but try to understand what is happening and why. In this case, a guy who is oblivious will usually have a nagging sense of frustration and not understand why he is having that.

I agree with this, I also agree that this is self created torture. Whereas a lot of men develop feelings over time, a lot of women either like you from day one or never will (yes, there are exceptions, but I feel that's the norm). So women aren't at fault for this.

The pickup community tag of AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) is dead on. Before I started to understand that there are fundamental differences between men and women in relationships, I was frustrated and a bit bitter. Now I'm having the time of my life. If I get the LJBF it isn't that the woman is a b*tch, as I used to think. It is just that there was no chemistry or attraction. That was either (1) fate or (2) that I failed to do what was necessary to allow the attraction to develop.

Well it's nice to know someone gets it.

Taking that attitude, I've had a bunch of dates in the last two months and I can say I've enjoyed them all. Where I've gotten the LJBF I've usually declined. However, I still can say that the first date or two was fun. I'm going in with no expectations. Just roll with things. (No that isn't in contradiction to the 'awareness' thing. the idea is that the awareness is now there so I can autopilot that part of my life)

No expectations is the way to do everything. It's a tough balance, but once you learn to live in the moment, stay open to new people and expect nothing, life gets a lot easier.
 chrisofpa
Joined: 8/28/2009
Msg: 226
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/4/2010 1:31:24 PM

The negative reaction is what I'm curious about. Why not just say "oh well" and move on? You waste no more time with that angle.


Agreed, I got an incoming phone call while writing that and it was poorly worded. I have definely moved away personally from the 'screw her' to the the 'hey, it was a cool evening.. let's see what I can get going for myself next week'
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 227
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/4/2010 10:06:35 PM
WIP (man, I need to catch up!),

I just think that looking at is as anything other than the person likes you as a person and isn't attracted to you not of their own choice, then it's a negative dynamic.

Here, I'll try to cut this reply down for the sake of everyone. :) Let me make something clear (repeatedly)... I am NOT saying that one should have to look at it as a "loss". Sure, it is one -- but you don't have to ONLY see it that way, and many times it's healthy not to see it like that at all! Another viewpoint can be totally different, but they don't have to conflict. However your view of looking at it is coupled with "no, it IS not a loss". Well, yes it is. High-on-life-protect-ones-ego mentality doesn't change what really is. Like I said before, in the Micki situation, IF one were going to use the word loss -- yes, you "lost" IF your goal was to garner her sexual interest AND you had no goal to become friends. If you DID have a goal to become friends as secondary, then yes, you got the consolation prize.

All that's not interested enough for me to consider it an opportunity - at least not one that's healthy for me to participate in. On the fence or lukewarm to me is a waste of my time. And to me that's not a missed or lost opportunity.

Yes, same here, IF you knew they had zero, near-zero, or even lukewarm interest. But that's not the point. This isn't about advice on what someone should do, your "chances", or how one should look at something in the end. I'm all for looking at things in the most positive light (as long as it isn't an inaccurate assessment)... but my whole argument is simple: If you chase someone and you didn't get them, you DID lose. You don't have to look at it that way. IF I got to play Shaq, I would not sulk about the word "loss" -- I would say "Wow, I got to play ball with Shaq!" And that analogy wasn't comparing sports to dating. It was an obvious example of losing an opportunity that is next-to-nothing -- just like losing an opportunity to garner a lady's interest who clearly isn't interested from the get-go is next to nothing. Even in those extreme situations, if you're stupid enough to "chase" it, and don't get it, YES, it is a loss.

If you are making the non loss in relation to yourself, then that's also self serving.

Every part of this is "self-serving". Chasing someone is self-serving. Looking at something as "not my loss" is (more) 'self serving'. Looking at something as "yeah, I lost that battle" is 'self-serving' for keeping an objective mindset about things. Being self-aware is self serving. Doing something or thinking something that is self-serving does not by any means imply one has an inflated ego or it was at the expense of anyone else.

I am a realist to the fact that most people aren't as special as they'd like to think they are.

Exactly. If that is true though, then why were you reflexively disagreeing with me and not Micki (even though you see her example as having no "loss")? She had the classic "it's your loss" if someone doesn't want to be her friend. Mine was the opposite of feeling special but saying "No, I would have 'lost', because I lost out on garnering her romantic interest (getting the girl)." My point of view is not at all about pumping oneself up at all or massaging an ego -- quite the opposite. It's one thing that you say that there's no "loss" about the situation, but I am shocked -- you're claiming I'm about massaging an ego and talking oneself up, when I'm stammering the opposite, if anything.

Since attraction is something NEITHER person can control, but is usually absolute even if not fully apparent in the first couple dates, there's no conclusion you can draw from it other than it's just two people who are not mutually interested.

I disagree. One's own attraction is not a choice, I totally agree. One can do things to alter their attraction, although doing it to themselves alone would take a lot of time and wouldn't be very effective (much like trying to influence yourself).

As a disclaimer: There is a HIGH probability that if someone has very little potential interest in you from the get-go, it's going to stay that way. It's by no means an absolute. You don't end the game with 4 minutes left because one of the teams is down by 2 touchdowns. (And no, I'm not comparing people's interest to football games; talking about probability)

What you're saying is that someone can't be turned on by someone who they weren't interested in previously. You're saying someone can't do something to give another impression and influence their image of them. No, they're not going to make them like vanilla over chocolate, but attraction's not like that. They can be unattracted to you because you're not their type (as they perceive), or not great looking (as they see right now), or not very charming (because you were tipsy). But to someone who doesn't know you very well, it actually is probable. It does happen. Not often, but it does. That is WHY those "fools who stick around" as friends do that. They are waiting on that chance. It's a waste of time, as they could use their time elsewhere better, but hey, there always IS that chance.

People do go from not attracted to someone, to attracted to someone. And yes, someone can do things to alter their image to make you more attracted to them. They can get in shape. They can use charm to strike a chord with you and make you think "wow." A guy can DESTROY interest, and he can create it. He can turn luke-warm into high interest (that IS creating MORE interest). A guy can do things that will make a woman who despises him think "Hey, you know, I was hasty... he's actually a pretty good guy." And from there, do things that generate attraction. Likely? Not really. Does it happen? Yes. People can influence others.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 228
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/4/2010 10:35:12 PM

It's very adult to decline (with your honest explanation) a friendship should it be offered. What's childish to me is viewing it as an insult that you were asked, and a loss that she wasn't interested.

It'd be childish to be upset about it if you did nothing wrong and she wasn't interested, you brought your A game, and it didn't work out. Absolutely. ONLY looking at it as a loss would be childish. Looking at it in its entirety is adult. What is childish is when a person is running away scared from the word "loss" -- just as childish as saying "it's your loss" if they don't accept a "let's just be friends".

I'll reverse it for emphasis:
I'm sure if you ever offer friendship to a woman you have no attraction to but enjoy hanging out with, the same applies. You're saying she's not worthy to date, and you're hanging on to her so you can talk to her about all the women you're planning to date. You also think it's acceptable to kick her to the curb by saying let's just be friends. Any woman you have no attraction to but you're polite to is irrelevant. You're a jerk anyway....do you see how childish all that sounds?

For all practical purposes, if I was in a dating/getting-to-know-ya situation with a gal, and I realized I had insufficient attraction while she did, I would not offer to be one-on-one friends. In the very least, things would be weird if she did clearly have attraction. If things were imperfect by how I laid things out -- taking hypocritical action over my statement of LJBF (hanging out one-on-one, any flirting while drinking), THAT would not be polite by itself -- regardless of how much of a Mr Nice Guy persona I would throw on.

I see NO problem with a guy or gal saying they're not interested. It's childish to be mad at them for that, as they did nothing wrong. I don't see it as an insult by itself to say LJBF. I don't see it as an insult to deny that offer.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 229
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/5/2010 5:26:48 AM

Here, I'll try to cut this reply down for the sake of everyone. :) Let me make something clear (repeatedly)... I am NOT saying that one should have to look at it as a "loss". Sure, it is one -- but you don't have to ONLY see it that way, and many times it's healthy not to see it like that at all! Another viewpoint can be totally different, but they don't have to conflict. However your view of looking at it is coupled with "no, it IS not a loss". Well, yes it is. High-on-life-protect-ones-ego mentality doesn't change what really is. Like I said before, in the Micki situation, IF one were going to use the word loss -- yes, you "lost" IF your goal was to garner her sexual interest AND you had no goal to become friends. If you DID have a goal to become friends as secondary, then yes, you got the consolation prize.

I stand by my post. That's the view of the person only. You cannot lose something you never had, and since neither person have any control over the chemistry, it's neither good or bad. It just is.

Yes, same here, IF you knew they had zero, near-zero, or even lukewarm interest. But that's not the point. This isn't about advice on what someone should do, your "chances", or how one should look at something in the end. I'm all for looking at things in the most positive light (as long as it isn't an inaccurate assessment)... but my whole argument is simple: If you chase someone and you didn't get them, you DID lose. You don't have to look at it that way. IF I got to play Shaq, I would not sulk about the word "loss" -- I would say "Wow, I got to play ball with Shaq!" And that analogy wasn't comparing sports to dating. It was an obvious example of losing an opportunity that is next-to-nothing -- just like losing an opportunity to garner a lady's interest who clearly isn't interested from the get-go is next to nothing. Even in those extreme situations, if you're stupid enough to "chase" it, and don't get it, YES, it is a loss.

Please stop comparing basketball to dating, the two aren't similar. And yes it is the point. Most don't pay attention to the fact that someone has no interest, or slight interest, for the most part that's the reason someone says "let's be friends" in the first place. Otherwise, they'd be dating you. I will say it again, you cannot lose something you never had. If I go outside now and try to catch a bird in my backyard (that would clearly not want anything to do with me), it's not a loss if I don't catch it. I don't own or have it, I never did - it's not mine to lose. You can chase a woman all day long that has no interest - it's only a loss in your head if you want to see it that way.

Every part of this is "self-serving". Chasing someone is self-serving. Looking at something as "not my loss" is (more) 'self serving'. Looking at something as "yeah, I lost that battle" is 'self-serving' for keeping an objective mindset about things. Being self-aware is self serving. Doing something or thinking something that is self-serving does not by any means imply one has an inflated ego or it was at the expense of anyone else.

I don't condone chasing honestly - I feel if you have to chase, you're already at a disadvantage. The person running from you is either not interested or enjoys making you pursue. To me, neither is worth considering, but I digress. It's self serving to think you had anything to do with someone who was never interested. The rest of your post was over analytical.

Exactly. If that is true though, then why were you reflexively disagreeing with me and not Micki (even though you see her example as having no "loss")? She had the classic "it's your loss" if someone doesn't want to be her friend. Mine was the opposite of feeling special but saying "No, I would have 'lost', because I lost out on garnering her romantic interest (getting the girl)." My point of view is not at all about pumping oneself up at all or massaging an ego -- quite the opposite. It's one thing that you say that there's no "loss" about the situation, but I am shocked -- you're claiming I'm about massaging an ego and talking oneself up, when I'm stammering the opposite, if anything.

I agree that it's not someone's loss if they don't want to know or be with someone else regardless of the situation. It's also not a loss to the other side. It's no one's loss. Focusing on yourself either way is irrelevant, IMO. Talking yourself up or down is still talking from first person. Saying you can do better OR that you lost something to try and learn a lesson is sort of besides the point in a case where two people just don't click. There doesn't have to be a reason for everything. Sometimes people are just part of something bigger than they are.

I disagree.

Shocking!

One's own attraction is not a choice, I totally agree. One can do things to alter their attraction, although doing it to themselves alone would take a lot of time and wouldn't be very effective (much like trying to influence yourself).

As a disclaimer: There is a HIGH probability that if someone has very little potential interest in you from the get-go, it's going to stay that way. It's by no means an absolute. You don't end the game with 4 minutes left because one of the teams is down by 2 touchdowns. (And no, I'm not comparing people's interest to football games; talking about probability)

What you're saying is that someone can't be turned on by someone who they weren't interested in previously. You're saying someone can't do something to give another impression and influence their image of them. No, they're not going to make them like vanilla over chocolate, but attraction's not like that. They can be unattracted to you because you're not their type (as they perceive), or not great looking (as they see right now), or not very charming (because you were tipsy). But to someone who doesn't know you very well, it actually is probable. It does happen. Not often, but it does. That is WHY those "fools who stick around" as friends do that. They are waiting on that chance. It's a waste of time, as they could use their time elsewhere better, but hey, there always IS that chance.

People do go from not attracted to someone, to attracted to someone. And yes, someone can do things to alter their image to make you more attracted to them. They can get in shape. They can use charm to strike a chord with you and make you think "wow." A guy can DESTROY interest, and he can create it. He can turn luke-warm into high interest (that IS creating MORE interest). A guy can do things that will make a woman who despises him think "Hey, you know, I was hasty... he's actually a pretty good guy." And from there, do things that generate attraction. Likely? Not really. Does it happen? Yes. People can influence others.

It happens so rarely that it's the exception to the rule. Therefore even considering it is silly...and I still mantain that in cases like that if the interest is genuine, it wasn't a total no from the beginning.

So you're saying that if a woman's not interested in a man at all, it's doubtful it will ever change, but a woman can become interested where she wasn't? Confusing.

Anytime I have seen a 180 degree change of interest it was usually based on something other than the person himself. Money, status, a guy's social circle, a car...something he has that she's interested in or wants and will take him with it - but isn't into him alone. That's not genuine interest, though so it's not really relevant unless a guy's ok with a woman who wants something he has enough to put up with him.

It'd be childish to be upset about it if you did nothing wrong and she wasn't interested, you brought your A game, and it didn't work out. Absolutely. ONLY looking at it as a loss would be childish. Looking at it in its entirety is adult. What is childish is when a person is running away scared from the word "loss" -- just as childish as saying "it's your loss" if they don't accept a "let's just be friends".

I don't know anything about fear of the word "loss" - my point is it doesn't fit the situation (which you already know via the last 99 posts). And yes, it's not a loss when a guy declines an offered friendship, to either party.

For all practical purposes, if I was in a dating/getting-to-know-ya situation with a gal, and I realized I had insufficient attraction while she did, I would not offer to be one-on-one friends. In the very least, things would be weird if she did clearly have attraction. If things were imperfect by how I laid things out -- taking hypocritical action over my statement of LJBF (hanging out one-on-one, any flirting while drinking), THAT would not be polite by itself -- regardless of how much of a Mr Nice Guy persona I would throw on.

So you wouldn't want to be friends with a woman who you enjoyed hanging out with but just didn't want to date? Again - that's your choice. However, most women would know that any flirting while drinking etc. wouldn't mean that a guy was interested, so unless she's an idiot - there's no impoliteness to it. Of course if a woman wants a dude so much that she can't hack the flirting then it's on HER to either decline a friendship, or get her head straight.

I see NO problem with a guy or gal saying they're not interested. It's childish to be mad at them for that, as they did nothing wrong. I don't see it as an insult by itself to say LJBF. I don't see it as an insult to deny that offer.

Good...we agree on that.
 DudeistPriest
Joined: 3/30/2009
Msg: 230
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/5/2010 5:46:30 AM
I think it's an age/maturity thing. At 48 I would much rather be friends first. If anything happens to become of that, great. If we stay friends, great. It's a win/win situation. I have more lady friends than bros, it's just always been easier for me to befriend members of the opposite sex.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 232
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/5/2010 12:59:15 PM
WIP,

You cannot lose something you never had, and since neither person have any control over the chemistry, it's neither good or bad. It just is.

That's the crux of the argument. You don't believe anyone has any control over chemistry. So naive. One can look at it that way to relieve themselves of -responsibility- if things don't go their way (or their way if they're objectively fair). By your argument, since nobody's responsible for chemistry, nobody could play a role in winning or losing someone's interest... thus nobody can win anything or lose anything. I understand what you're saying -- but my argument is, is that yes, people can do things to turn people off, or turn people on. You said someone can destroy interest or change it earlier. THUS, some people CAN play a role. A sweet car they got could create a positive association, thus spark attraction. A loss of 100lbs, more directly could do that. Certain words, phrases, tone of voice, and chosen environment could do the same. I once met a woman for the first time twice (not on purpose). First time she blew me off, second time was the exact opposite, with only a couple months of difference. But I didn't need that experience to realize the common sense that you can be responsible for lowering/raising someone else's interest, just as much as creating something virtually not there at all.

Please stop comparing basketball to dating, the two aren't similar.

As I stated, it's NOT comparing basketball to dating. First, it wasn't about the -game- of basketball. It was about pursuing to win something in which there's (virtually) no chance; probability, and second, we're not talking about dating, either. We're talking about winning someone's interest where they had none -- which we can settle on that you find impossible (hence same odds as me beating Shaq).

I will say it again, you cannot lose something you never had.

You can't lose someone you never had, yes. You can't lose keys you never had. But you can lose opportunities you've had, or situations you set up to win. Your argument is that even if someone did have an "ehh" interest-level, if one failed to "win them over", it wouldn't be a loss. My point is, it is a loss.

I don't condone chasing honestly - I feel if you have to chase, you're already at a disadvantage.

We're not talking about advice, otherwise we'd be agreeing on a lot more. :) What I'm saying is that IF -YOU- put yourself in a position to do something, you "win" if you obtained your goal, you "lose" if you didn't, even if -YOU- are silly about it. A person can set whatever goals they want, regardless of how silly. Attitude, emotion plays nothing into this. The argument is not whether one should look at something as "a loss" -- the argument is that it's not -incorrect- to call it a loss in the right context (regardless of how silly it would be dwell on it that way in varying situations, or only see it that way).

So you're saying that if a woman's not interested in a man at all, it's doubtful it will ever change, but a woman can become interested where she wasn't? Confusing.

Yep. How is that confusing? It's doutful it will ever change, but it CAN happen. Whether it be that her tastes change on their own over time, happenstance, or a guy pre-meditatively took action to "win her over". Lost cause? Usually. Can it happen? It does. That's why fools -stick around- for it (which is really silly for 99% of situations).

Therefore even considering it is silly...and I still mantain that in cases like that if the interest is genuine, it wasn't a total no from the beginning.

Well, technically, I don't think everything's a "total no". It's more of a feeling, not a rating scale of 0-10. I'm not saying at all that anyone can create interest in anyone else in any situation. Just saying it IS possible to create interest (being responsible for doing something that garnered a lady's interest). Same way goes for girl-to-guys... but just because that gives desperate people too much hope to continue to be desperate, doesn't mean it "can't happen".

So you wouldn't want to be friends with a woman who you enjoyed hanging out with but just didn't want to date?

Again, if I started out in the dating sitaution with her, I wouldn't enjoy hanging out with her if I didn't want to date her, and had any inclination she really wanted to date me. I could think she's cool -- but I wouldn't want to. Part of me may, if say, I was new in town, could use her as a pipeline to her friends -- but that would be cruel, and that wouldn't be something I would want to do either. If I was convinced that she wasn't interested in me either, that'd be a different story.

If you went up to Shaq, asked for a game of one on one and he declined would you tell everyone that you lost a game to him?

In that case I wouldn't have lost a game, no. I would have lost a chance to play an actual game, to be technical. None of this is about attitude or dwelling on the word loss -- I'm not a fan of that either. If I did get a chance to play him, my chances of winning would be basically zero. As my post said, I wouldn't dwell on that at all (but this thread isn't about dwelling about negatives or positives or attitudes), I'd say "OMG! I got to play Shaq!" If he declined my offer, and I got to shoot around, I'd be like "OMG! I got to shoot around with Shaq!". Whether it's a "loss" or a "win" depends on what your goals were. IF you had a -real- goal to play a game and he declined, you lost at convincing him (no matter how infinitesimally small that chance was; no matter how much it his declining mattered to ya anyway). IF you declined his offer to just shoot around instead, you did NOT lose if you genuinely didn't want to just shoot around.

The conversation's veered off into a silly sub-thread. Some people don't like to use the word "loss" liberally, and think if one does, they're depressed or something -- I know it's playoff season, maybe that has something to do with it lol
 chrisofpa
Joined: 8/28/2009
Msg: 233
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/5/2010 1:33:22 PM
Confident Realist

That's the crux of the argument. You don't believe anyone has any control over chemistry. So naive. One can look at it that way to relieve themselves of -responsibility- if things don't go their way (or their way if they're objectively fair). By your argument, since nobody's responsible for chemistry, nobody could play a role in winning or losing someone's interest... thus nobody can win anything or lose anything. I understand what you're saying


Hey CR - Way back in the dark ages, when I was an undergrad, our marketing prof told us a story about advertising. An ad exec hopped into a cab in NY. (that was when the cabbies were mostly american to put this in context). The cabbie asked what the guy did for a living. The ad exec replied he was in advertising. The cabbie said something like "That stuff don't work on me". The exec noticed he was the cabbie was chewing gum. He asked what kind and the cabbie replied "dentyne" the exec asked him why he was chewing dentyne and the reply was 'because I don't have time to brush'.

IOW, the cabbie WAS being influenced by advertising even though he wasn't aware of it. ergo, your point about being able to influence chemistry is true.

Let's take the example the opposite way. Suppose I'm going to meet a woman on friday. I shower, shave, brush, cologne, get a decent haircut, wear my good clothes, smile etc.. I have a certain chance of striking up 'chemistry'

OTOH, suppose I don't bathe for the next couple of days, miss shaving, don't brush but eat peanuts and garlic, wear polyseter clothes I wore when cleaning out the chicken coop, eat gassy food and have chicken grease in my hair and show up with a copy of Hustler in my hand with a huge scowl on my face because I'm ticked that my team just lost a game.

It's the same me and the same woman. I would certainly hope that the latter case would have ZERO, NADA, OUGHT, NIL, Nothing, chance of generating chemistry while the former might have a chance. So, chemistry can be prodded along a wee bit.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 234
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/5/2010 6:24:54 PM
chrisofpa,

OW, the cabbie WAS being influenced by advertising even though he wasn't aware of it.

Yep. I think folks with a ultra-firm belief that you can't create interest in someone, or increase their interest in you, is on the same level as those who blanketedly say advertising doesn't affect them. It makes one feel like they're a kid or something -- someone naive. Oh no! Not me! That stuff doesn't work on me! If it can have a bad influence (which more people will agree it can), it can have a good influence. Some people like to feel their in total control of their tastes and desires. Advertising able to influence them? A guy she briefly met in which she has no interest able to generate interest in her? That sounds horrible (them feeling weak)! It's not... it's just human nature, and it's not bad. It makes a lady look bad only if he did something stupid to generate her interest and it worked.

I have a certain chance of striking up 'chemistry'

Your story is true. Saying that you being the same person, if you change things up, able to make the same woman be interested or not interested -- that's an insult to some, that's why they don't want to believe it (with thoughts of manipulators abound).

Years back in Hawaii, I was at a fancy bar where some politicians were buying drinks on the house. My buddy was eying this older woman, and I played wingman to her friend, approaching them. We sat and talked for about 10 minutes, and after the first minute I could tell the blonde I was talking to was NOT interested. But I was in "safe mode" to let my friend continue his conversation, as he was saying we're some day going to be young representatives... but it was awkward chit-chat. I wasn't looking my best anyway in retrospect. Fast forward 2 months later. I'm working in the Capital building for countless hours, go on a matching site, and I meet an older woman on there. About the only reasonably attractive woman on the site... and she looked familiar. I figured she was it was her mid-western look; rare around there.

I made myself look my best, and in the best mindset, meet her, and she really really dug me. We have dinner, she's touchy, shy, smiling, complimenting, etc. As things go on, she asks me, "So, you work for govt. You're not a young republican are you?" I said, "No, no I'm not... why?" Then I realized. This was the SAME woman! She says, "OH GOOD! I was at this bar a while back, and these two guys come up to me and my friend... the guy talking to me, he wasn't that good looking, wasn't tall, and they said they were young republicans. Eventually I blew them off and told my friend we had to go to the bathroom and we'd be right back, we just stayed at the other end of the bar..." and I smiled and said "Wow, the guy sounds like a tool!" We had a couple more drinks -- and we dated for a little bit, and I enjoyed that cougar experience you could say. She was clingy, never knew (not the brightest) -- I never told her I was that guy. :) It's just impressions and how you carry yourself. Sometimes it isn't even you -- sometimes it's their mood, their mindset, too.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 235
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/5/2010 7:07:35 PM
IOW, the cabbie WAS being influenced by advertising even though he wasn't aware of it. ergo, your point about being able to influence chemistry is true.

Subliminal advertising that gets someone to choose a certain brand of a product they are already seeking isn't chemistry. It's product saturation, or good timing. Chemistry is two people (romantic or not) who get along well, usually.

Let's take the example the opposite way. Suppose I'm going to meet a woman on friday. I shower, shave, brush, cologne, get a decent haircut, wear my good clothes, smile etc.. I have a certain chance of striking up 'chemistry'

Once a woman is attracted to you yes. Romantic chemistry. If she's not into you but enjoys talking to you and you feel the same, that's general chemistry. Both attraction and chemistry are not logical and can't be predicted. Some people click, some don't. Period.

OTOH, suppose I don't bathe for the next couple of days, miss shaving, don't brush but eat peanuts and garlic, wear polyseter clothes I wore when cleaning out the chicken coop, eat gassy food and have chicken grease in my hair and show up with a copy of Hustler in my hand with a huge scowl on my face because I'm ticked that my team just lost a game.

It's the same me and the same woman. I would certainly hope that the latter case would have ZERO, NADA, OUGHT, NIL, Nothing, chance of generating chemistry while the former might have a chance. So, chemistry can be prodded along a wee bit.

If she's attracted to you/thinks you are cute, she'll acknowledge that whether she chooses to do anything about it or not. In your two scenarios, the only difference is that she'll prefer hygiene and some sort of decent presentation, and therefore will think you're cute but that it's too bad all your other traits aren't to her liking.

Edit - to the poster below:
You forgot to post the continuation of this dialogue by Harry and the fact that he waffled about it through most of the movie, depending on his current situation
 chrisofpa
Joined: 8/28/2009
Msg: 237
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/5/2010 9:11:49 PM
Confident realist said

I made myself look my best, and in the best mindset, meet her, and she really really dug me. We have dinner, she's touchy, shy, smiling, complimenting, etc. As things go on, she asks me, "So, you work for govt. You're not a young republican are you?" I said, "No, no I'm not... why?" Then I realized. This was the SAME woman! She says, "OH GOOD! I was at this bar a while back, and these two guys come up to me and my friend... the guy talking to me, he wasn't that good looking, wasn't tall, and they said they were young republicans. Eventually I blew them off and told my friend we had to go to the bathroom and we'd be right back, we just stayed at the other end of the bar..." and I smiled and said "Wow, the guy sounds like a tool!" We had a couple more drinks -- and we dated for a little bit, and I enjoyed that cougar experience you could say. She was clingy, never knew (not the brightest) -- I never told her I was that guy. :) It's just impressions and how you carry yourself. Sometimes it isn't even you -- sometimes it's their mood, their mindset, too.


That is one funny story. The last part is especially true. If nothing else, ye olde minstral cycle can play a huge parte (Hey, I'm listening to tull.. get it, minstral in the gallery??)
 misszmsz
Joined: 5/31/2008
Msg: 238
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/5/2010 9:28:53 PM
I have 7 guy friends - my 5 brothers and 2 nephews.

Some gay men like women friends, most straight guys however will be wanting the benefits to go along with that friendship.

REDDRAGON - your post/joke is worth repeating.
 chrisofpa
Joined: 8/28/2009
Msg: 239
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/5/2010 9:31:49 PM
WIP said


Subliminal advertising that gets someone to choose a certain brand of a product they are already seeking isn't chemistry.


The dentyne advertising was not subliminal, it was overt. However sublimnial techniques do work. There is a lot of speculation that during a recent national election, one candidate used a variation of Ericksonian Hypnosis to swing some of the undecideds.


Once a woman is attracted to you yes. Romantic chemistry. If she's not into you but enjoys talking to you and you feel the same, that's general chemistry. Both attraction and chemistry are not logical and can't be predicted. Some people click, some don't. Period.


Given the qualifier 'some' I would have to agree. However, I think the process is probably more predictable than you would think.

Anyway, going back to the original topic, women tend to put some men they meet into the friends bucket and others into the mates bucket. Confident Realists anecdote shows that the process can be affected by external factors. Perhaps not always, but some times.

The one part that is the crux of this discussion is


If she's not into you but enjoys talking to you and you feel the same, that's general chemistry


What happens is that, IN GENERAL, women have the two bucket, or two ladder or friend/mate sorting system. It seems to be somewhat of a chicken-sexer thing. I don't mean that negatively but rather that it is a somewhat automatic, conditioned response.

The problem in the mars-venus world is that men don't understand that. They have a delusion that if they are a friend, and they are a nice doggie, that they can move from the friends to the mates bucket. I think that the situation where neither partner is looking for more is rare. Rather, the guy is usually thinking that the friendship will lead to something a lot more.

That is NOT a slam at women. Perhaps 30,000 years of evolution has conditioned us to this.

Perhaps it goes back to the early days of man. A woman might want to have as many men friends as possible in the event that a couple of sabre toothed tigers wandered by looking for munchies. Ogg, on the other hand was wired for Hunt, eat, sleep, do it with woman. However, there is a lot of evidence that early societies were not monogomous and that the alpha male got the majority of the nookie in the group. The non alphas might have thought "Me be friends with oggette. Maybe she do it with me instead of Mok some day" (Yep, that would get me no more than a C- in a 101 pysc or sociology course)

Whatever, there is a difference in male-female brains and I believe a lot of the conflict is that there are two different rulebooks and most guys never read the pink one.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 240
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/6/2010 12:13:12 AM
WIP,

Subliminal advertising that gets someone to choose a certain brand of a product they are already seeking isn't chemistry. It's product saturation, or good timing. Chemistry is two people (romantic or not) who get along well, usually.

I don't think advertising is any more subliminal than the impression one gives off. That's why people call it a "vibe" and whatnot. It's by no means the only thing that has an effect of course, but I think people would feel like it's a damper on "chemistry" if someone was able to consciously alter it and someone else's impression of them. I differ from you where I see it being very clear that attraction -can- go one way or the other based on an impression they got from someone... and although first impressions are very huge, second & third impressions can change someone's viewpoint. People can advertise themselves to make another attracted to the product (you). I do not say, though, that is the only factor at all involved on whether attraction develops or not (sufficiently).

In your two scenarios, the only difference is that she'll prefer hygiene and some sort of decent presentation, and therefore will think you're cute but that it's too bad all your other traits aren't to her liking.

With some women, that may be the case. With other women it could not be -- in one scenario she's attracted to him as a WHOLE, and in the other scenario the same woman is not attracted to him as a whole. With women who in both cases who wouldn't be attracted, she could be turned off, and the other just not feel it -- but given timing, a different mindset, mood, etc., she would. There are women who would be attracted to his less-dolled-up appearance because by accident due to other things, where she wouldn't given another time be attracted to him when he was dolled up. It all varies. And of course there are women who wouldn't end up wanting him in basically ANY situation. Point is, he can play a role by pre-meditated actions on HER attraction to him, because those actions play a role on his impression -- and his impression helps steer her toward or away from attraction -- whether it be to a small degree or large degree (depends on timing and the the type & state of the people involved).

Some people click, some don't. Period.

Yes. Some people will never click. Some people won't click now, but can click later, I think is the disagreement. I don't think it's common -- but does happen. This isn't about non-interest -> interest. If someone doesn't know you, they don't have interest. Instead, I think it's about someone coming to the conclusion (whether it takes 5 minutes or 5 days) that they don't feel it with someone, and we disagree on whether that can be reversed or altered by the other party -- or, if during a "give the other person a chance even though I lack interest" timeframe, whether they can do things to alter it. I say it's not common, but I've seen it happen several times firsthand, and experienced it a couple times on both sides of the coin in my years.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 243
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/6/2010 8:13:55 PM

The problem in the mars-venus world is that men don't understand that. They have a delusion that if they are a friend, and they are a nice doggie, that they can move from the friends to the mates bucket. I think that the situation where neither partner is looking for more is rare. Rather, the guy is usually thinking that the friendship will lead to something a lot more.

You know what I think it is? Projection. Because men tend to develop stronger attraction over time where (they feel) there wasn't any, they assume women will do the same, so they tell themselves if they stick it out long enough, she'll come around. A majority of women discover attraction or lack of early on and don't change, and a majority of men tend to realize they are attracted to someone they know over time (there are exceptions, of course).

It also explains why a lot of men think attraction is less cut and dry for most women than it actually is most of the time. They're only going by what they personally know.
 MsMicki
Joined: 10/2/2006
Msg: 244
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/7/2010 9:47:25 PM

A guy that doesn't have a dating life though will be very unwilling to be platonic friends with the only girl he chats with. And the more he invest i.e. calling, dinner, gifts the less able he'd be able to shake his romantic feelings.


Why would a guy be buying dinner and gifts for a woman that has told him she only wants to be friends??
Do you think you can buy her love?
If I told a man that I had no romantic feelings for him and just wanted to be friends......and he continued to try to "romance" me......I'd end all contact because he obviously can't deal w/ the reality of the situation.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 246
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/8/2010 12:45:21 AM
Sobe,

Try befriending guys with lots of dating options. You'll find more luck.

Very true. If a guy has a lot of dating options, chances are he won't be "holding out for her", and it won't be so weird for him (thus for her). Additionally, he's more apt to have female friends, because a guy with dating options knows how to keep the pipeline of options flowing over time -- and if the gal has female friends, it just adds to that, and that's where his focus can comfortably be.

Draoi,

Why? That's simple. A guys sticks around in the Friends Zone because they hope the woman will see what a great guy he is and see what jerks the guys she dates and sleeps with are.

I hate to sound rude, but that is exactly what the loser guy with no dating options thinks. First, just because she isn't attracted/interested in you doesn't mean she's chasing jerks. Second, even if a gal is, you don't stick around in the Friends Zone to try and prove yourself to a girl while she gets porked by Jimmy, Bobby, and Stan then finally realizes afterwards they're jerks and you hope to get some pity-play or a date. That's desperation. Could it work? If she's in your league, you know you two are a match, and she's been going thru a weird phase, yeah, it's possible -- but not worth the journey if you are working it, thinking it, plotting/scheming, etc. Total waste of time in that sense.
 AsharpTechie
Joined: 1/27/2009
Msg: 248
view profile
History
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/10/2010 9:25:23 PM

since most of the dates I've gone on haven't led to bf, I think if they're interesting and cool people, "why not friends?"

While your line of thought isn't flawed, per se, it doesn't hold the same weight as if you were in a different situation.
Your profile clearly states that you are looking for "Dating". You say yourself that you are looking for dating, and a boyfriend. That is the expectation that guys will bring to these meetings. They probably feel like they are being cheated in that situation, if you ask to be just friends. Most guys don't want to be second fiddle, or just friends with someone they originally had a romantic interest in.
If you want friends, set your seeking to "Friends".
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 249
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/11/2010 1:32:06 AM

The implication, therefore, is that as a woman gets to know me, she finds me more attractive. I don't believe a word of it, of course, but if I didn't know any better, then I would be doing exactly that - hanging around women hoping that they'd eventually 'get' me."

I agree that can happen... however, you won't be more attractive if you're 'hanging around'. You can be in their social circle and they can see a better, more attractive side of you. Some people make hasty "am I attracted" judgements, and some people give off inaccurate first impressions best seen over time if given the chance. Nonetheless, it's not worth "hanging around" for, because (a) if you really dig her, a huge chance she knows that and hanging around, and that kills any potential attraction from blossoming, and (b) regardless, chances are dim.

Because men tend to develop stronger attraction over time where (they feel) there wasn't any, they assume women will do the same, so they tell themselves if they stick it out long enough, she'll come around.

I don't agree with that. I don't believe guys and girls differ so much on that, and that guys are "wired" differently where it takes longer to develop attraction; not at all. Maybe longer for wanting a serious settle-down relationship, but not attraction. A guy sees a hot chick walk into a bar, it does not take him more than 2 seconds to know he's attracted to her.

I think guys stick around because they have less options than girls, all other things being equal (status, fame, popularity, etc.). A gal is going to have guys approach her after being denied by a guy, and a guy is going to have much less of that. Additionally, some guys think that women are can be emotionally pursuaded, since they are deemed more emotional and into caring people, and being friends and showing the caring kind side will end up winning her over (and also maybe jerks she dates she'll get sick of). Point is, most guys are hunters -- they need to go out of their way spending time, effort, and energy to fetch options, and if they like a girl they'll sit on the hunting perch... where as a girls have options offered to them if they're social and and less in any hunting mode (if we're going to get stereotypical about gender culture).
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 250
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/11/2010 4:40:28 AM

...which goes back to what some men here have been saying. If most male attraction grows over time, while most women decide from the jump, these friendships are nothing more than emotional time bombs. That's why it's hard for "most men" to be CLOSE friends with women they really want to date. But it's MORE than "physical attraction" that grows over time. Hell, most of the guys I know size up nearly every woman they see (within reason). It's built into our DNA. It's why the species survives. Most of us don't ACT on those thoughts, however.

I personally feel that there shouldn't be a whole lot of emotion about this as it's a choice both consciously make should a friendship develop. Otherwise I don't disagree.

The backwash of this deal is that many women who act on "instant chemistry", wind up disappointed with men who lack the "friendship" traits the guys they aren't attracted to have, especially women who overestimate their OWN physical attractiveness.

Well some women who hate to be single settle for all looks and no substance. The answer to that isn't to shoot for all substance and no attraction, though some women may take that extreme approach.

The key is to enjoy being single unless/until a guy comes along who has BOTH the attraction factor AND some substance. Takes a lot of patience. Few have it.

I don't agree with that. I don't believe guys and girls differ so much on that, and that guys are "wired" differently where it takes longer to develop attraction; not at all. Maybe longer for wanting a serious settle-down relationship, but not attraction. A guy sees a hot chick walk into a bar, it does not take him more than 2 seconds to know he's attracted to her.

Then perhaps it takes longer for guys to go from "I'd do her" to "I'd date her". That's a better way to explain what I mean. It takes them longer to see someone as a romantic prospect than it does women.

I think guys stick around because they have less options than girls, all other things being equal (status, fame, popularity, etc.). A gal is going to have guys approach her after being denied by a guy, and a guy is going to have much less of that. Additionally, some guys think that women are can be emotionally pursuaded, since they are deemed more emotional and into caring people, and being friends and showing the caring kind side will end up winning her over (and also maybe jerks she dates she'll get sick of). Point is, most guys are hunters -- they need to go out of their way spending time, effort, and energy to fetch options, and if they like a girl they'll sit on the hunting perch... where as a girls have options offered to them if they're social and and less in any hunting mode (if we're going to get stereotypical about gender culture).

We'll have agree to disagree on this.
 chrisofpa
Joined: 8/28/2009
Msg: 251
Why do men find it hard to be friends?
Posted: 1/11/2010 5:18:47 AM
amboyace said


The backwash of this deal is that many women who act on "instant chemistry", wind up disappointed with men who lack the "friendship" traits the guys they aren't attracted to have, especially women who overestimate their OWN physical attractiveness.


That is an interesting thought. I have to ponder that a bit more but I think you are on to something.
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