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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs      Home login  
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 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 51
Sacrificing Cherished BeliefsPage 3 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Our own life expectations, goals, and dreams cause us to change our cherished beliefs because we are a never ending construction / deconstruction project. That doubt causes us to rethink our true motives for being and we therefore continue to evolve, learn, and love (and have sex-lots of sex- this is me so I had to throw that one in even in this forum).
 ryanrucker
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 52
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 12/31/2009 8:55:12 AM
i believe in love, i love all of you guys, (even aremeself), thank you all, for making me think. i will continue to 'cherish' all of your belief's, in 2010...happy new year freinds!!!
&
 ea®ly
Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 53
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 12/31/2009 10:19:07 AM
Our own life expectations, goals, and dreams cause us to change our cherished beliefs because we are a never ending construction / deconstruction project.

My father used to say; "if you live your life well, it is a constant 'becoming' of who you are".

I believe this, we aren't just defined by our words and deeds (and how well they match), but in how we ride the breathing, changing flow of life. When I think about how he lived his life and the many changes in direction he had until he finally died on his feet in his own den (pretty much the way he wanted to go, gone before he crashed to the floor), I can see so many examples of this through his entire 78 year history.

I think most of his life was driven by a sense of devotion to the idea of altruism (an inherited cherished belief I have), actually; the more I think about it, the less of a supposition it seems. Every single major change in his life had within it, the idea of serving the greater good. Growing up, he was my biggest hero, ...not I think, because of any particular act(s) or words spoken, but in how he rode the dynamic wave of life in such a way that he caused it to change direction, almost at will.


It is a very subtle, but for me, profoundly provocative question...


Moi aussi, mon chèr...

I wonder, if 'adapting' cherished beliefs is really the same as 'sacrificing' them, I suppose that to some extent it is, just as there is some truth to the idea that we live in the moment and so our past and future 'selves' aren't exactly 'alive' anymore ...or yet. Maybe it isn't the cherished belief that is sacrificed, maybe it is the idea of past self.


This is one those cherished beliefs that I have, that what I do makes a difference in this world.


I can tell you one thing, this is the kind of legacy that has meaning that outlives us all, and lives in the past, the moment and the future.

I think I'm drawn to people like my father, who cherish the idea of a greater good, a higher purpose with no reward other than a legacy of having pushed hard for a better world. I also think that in its most pure form, it's a rare thing, ...I tend to cherish and treasure people like this when I encounter them, ...and if they have any of what my father had, I tend to admire them to the point of child-like awe, I think I know why.


Would I want to know, that in 10 years the earth was going to explode, thereby making all of mine and everybody else's efforts obsolete?


It's a good thread to have on this day, this evening; when the calendar kicks over another digit, and many are thinking of life in the sense of a past and future year, ...and 'new year's resolutions', ...those promises we make to the year to come, and rarely keep.

I have grown to value the word 'cherish' lately, and have been trying to understand better, its meanings and the facets and subtleties of them. I think that many here lean towards the meanings that have to do with the word 'resolution', or better still 'resolute belief'; when they consider the idea of 'cherished belief'. But the more I turn the word 'cherish' over in my mind and the more I taste it as it is spoken, I can't shake the idea that there is something more to this word in its etymology that gives it a warmer colour than 'resolute'.

For me, what really separates 'cherished belief' from 'resolute belief' is; the aspects of 'love', 'nurture' and 'respect', as; to cherish is: "To hold dear".

So there can be many cherished beliefs that no truth, fact or even an exploding earth ...can ever change.

So this evening, I'm going to spend some time thinking of the things, ideas ...and people I cherish, ...and not make any 'new year's resolutions', instead, I may try to prepare my cherished beliefs, just a little; for another year's worth ...of sacrificial waves, and ...becoming.

Trés bon année, chère belle fleur sauvage, merci de cette belle idée que vous nous avez donnés pour parler.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 54
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Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 12/31/2009 10:34:26 AM
I don't know if we find truth without a search.

but, shouldn't truth be our guide, above all else?

there are many cherished religious ideas, that have no truth to them at all.
 ryanrucker
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 55
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 12/31/2009 12:46:24 PM
^^
they are truth to those who cherish
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 56
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Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 12/31/2009 12:51:22 PM
then your truth can be, whatever people hold dear.

ok, that is just a cherished belief.

we are not talking about truth anymore.
 acuddler
Joined: 10/30/2009
Msg: 57
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 12/31/2009 4:31:31 PM
The real truth is that none of us exist. We are all just characters in a dream that God is having. Since you can't disprove it, it must be true. Now, what cherished beliefs are you willing to give up for this great truth? Does it matter?

Either there is Truth, or there is no Truth. If Truth exists, it is relative, or non-relative. If Truth is relative, then it depends upon each person's view, which means that Truth is not really True for all, so it does not really exist after all. If Truth is non-relative, then either we can discover what it is, or we can not. That means that there are three chances out of four that truth is non-existant....or, at least, non-discoverable. Why, then, waste your life searching for what most probably can not be found?

Even if you find it, the Truth of today becomes the fable of tomorrow. Do you remember the 1960s & 1970s when those evil damned liberal Democrats wanted to take away everyone's guns...and the brave, righteous, Servants Of God the GOP were going to do away with all gun control laws if they ever got into control? Then, the GOP got control of both houses of Congress, and The White House...and the 1968 Gun Control Act is still with us. Those truth telling Republicans lied about repealing gun control...didn't they? The Truth of Albert Einstein's Cosmological Constant turned out to be a lie...which even Albert himself finally admitted. All during The Cold War, The Truth said that The Soviet Union is the cause of all evil on the planet. Then The Soviet Union faded into non-existance, but evil is still with us.

Searching for Truth is what stupid people claim to be doing when they want to sound as though they are a lot smarter than they really are. Albert Einstein is a classic example. During most of his life, Albert claimed to be searching for Truth...even while he intentionally perpetrated the fraud of the Cosmological Constant upon the gullible world which chose to hero worship him. In reality, Albert Einstein was an Idiot Savant...very smart in one, or two,ways...and very stupid in all others. He never did learn to tie his shows, and so wore loafers. He married a first cousin. He based much of his life on a fraud he knew to be a fraud, because he was the perpetrator of it.

Seeking/defending The Truth is what makes things like The Crusades, The Inquisition, the execution of Socrates, and the Holocaust, possible. Once you think you have The Truth, you have to supress all else. So...who should we gas next? Have you had your cup of hemlock this morning? The real Truth is that you will never know The Truth. Like The Exclusion Principle of Quantum Mechanics, one can not both be alive, and know The Truth...any more than one can know both the location, and speed, of a sub atomic particle. at the same time. To learn The Truth, you have to be dead. Prove me wrong...if you can.
 ea®ly
Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 58
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 12/31/2009 4:48:48 PM
The real truth is that none of us exist. We are all just characters in a dream that God is having. Since you can't disprove it, it must be true. Now, what cherished beliefs are you willing to give up for this great truth? Does it matter?


Not at all, because this is just sophistry.


Either there is Truth, or there is no Truth. If Truth exists, it is relative, or non-relative. If Truth is relative, then it depends upon each person's view, which means that Truth is not really True for all, so it does not really exist after all. If Truth is non-relative, then either we can discover what it is, or we can not. That means that there are three chances out of four that truth is non-existant....or, at least, non-discoverable. Why, then, waste your life searching for what most probably can not be found?


See: Syllogistic Error


The Truth of Albert Einstein's Cosmological Constant turned out to be a lie...which even Albert himself finally admitted.


The cosmological constant was never claimed by anybody, Einstein included, ...to be a truth. It was postulated (a hypothesis) to explain a gap in the data, the gap was later filled, the hypothesis disgarded. That's how science works, it's self-corrected by observed reality.

Ever heard of "God of the gaps"? - suggest you do some reading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps


To learn The Truth, you have to be dead. Prove me wrong...if you can.


With even the most basic understanding of reason and logic, one knows that a negative cannot be proved. The onus is on you to provide the proof. Go ahead, ...make my day.
 ea®ly
Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 59
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 12/31/2009 7:47:39 PM
Both of you are completely clueless as to the cosmological constant and it history. It is true that science is self-correcting but I’ll say it again you both are clueless about your viwe on the cosmological constant.


Contrast and compare:

Einstein included the cosmological constant as a term in his field equations for general relativity because he was dissatisfied that otherwise his equations did not allow, apparently, for a static universe: gravity would cause a universe which was initially at dynamic equilibrium to contract. To counteract this possibility, Einstein added the cosmological constant.[1] However, soon after Einstein developed his static theory, observations by Edwin Hubble indicated that the universe appears to be expanding; this was consistent with a cosmological solution to the original general-relativity equations that had been found by the mathematician Friedman.

~ Wikipedia - Cosmological Constant/History


The cosmological constant was never claimed by anybody, Einstein included, ...to be a truth. It was postulated (a hypothesis) to explain a gap in the data, the gap was later filled, the hypothesis discarded.
~ ea®ly


For the purpose of the topic of this thread and in keeping with it (not about the cosmological constant BTW): How does it not negate the insistence that Einstein "lied" about his cosmological constant, how is this "clueless"? Anything to add to the thread of an "on topic" nature while you're at it? On the other hand, if thinking that this thread is actually about the cosmological constant is; one of your cherished beliefs? ->Nevermind.
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 60
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 12/31/2009 7:49:13 PM
I think we all do as PEOPLE.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 61
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Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 12/31/2009 8:04:15 PM
was there anybody that proposed an expanding universe, before there was a shred of evidence of an expanding universe?

because it sure makes sense!
 ea®ly
Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 62
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 12/31/2009 8:20:33 PM

then your truth can be, whatever people hold dear.

ok, that is just a cherished belief.

we are not talking about truth anymore.


Sometimes yes, sometimes no, I don't think there was ever any nod to an "absolute truth" in the OP, ...it all depends on the cherished belief, there are some things that people "hold dear", like a devotion to altruism, ...that don't need any truths save those we define for ourselves.
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 63
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 12/31/2009 8:35:24 PM
Here's to the Blue Moon and dreams coming true! May we all have a Happy New Year
filled with our very own truths and cherished beliefs that we have defined for ourselves. Time to have a glass of anything still left my kids and our group of friends didn't drink yet. Im always one of three people still sober at this point...
To think at their age what I was doing by now. Proof positive I am ever changing.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 64
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 12/31/2009 9:49:16 PM
I have to say the term "cherished" is extremely subtle. This is a brilliant thread!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree, and IMO, it's the inclusion of 'cherished' that makes for a good 'think'.


Thanks guys, I was inspired, by ah, a certain fiddler who is quite mad...


The notion of the world coming to an end is interesting, though. There have been scientific theories that this will be the eventual fate of the universe (sorry to burst your bubble)


You burst my bubble! And I cherished you, and believed in you...(another one bites the dust...)


We just never know where or how the simple opinions of others can help us.


I agree, Margo.


I think history has degrees of self correcting too.


Self-correcting, self-repeating, self-deluding...


Does our 'thinking' influence our chemical make up or does our chemical make up influence our thinking? -should be a new thread)


I agree...as always, excellent posts, exo...

I tell you one scientific cherished belief, that I hold onto, even when confronted with it's obvious intonations and incongruencies. Free will. I resist the idea of the Law of Determinism, for several different reasons. While, as I have posted before in several threads, I feel that free will be proved in chaos theory and mathematics, I still have to accept the possibility that our choices may be reduced to predetermined probabilities.

Happy New Year everyone! hugs to all!
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 65
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 1/1/2010 12:23:00 AM

I feel that free will be proved in chaos theory and mathematics, I still have to accept the possibility that our choices may be reduced to predetermined probabilities.

Ever consider relating with wave particle duality?
It may be that the nature of the universe is one of "free will/determinist" duality. Leastways, it does appear that the universe is built on an order out of chaos.

This isn't a cherished belief of mine; I'm just considering a possibility. However, I'd like to point out that I never would have entertained the possibility of somehow uniting opposites if I'd been "married" to a cherished belief in the truth of one or the other. No belief ought ever be cherished to that extent.

BTW...Happy New Year!!!
Here's a round for the house...
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 66
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 1/1/2010 4:30:26 AM
Marriage is a uniting of opposites that's why so many of us are divorced and on this thing! It seems to me that most relationships in the universe are built on order out of what first appears to be chaos. With people sometimes that chaos just drives out of our ever loving minds. LOVE- making order out of chaos. Makes sense to me after listening to pure b.s. while my daughter and son in law had a drunken screaming match most the morning only to end up banging their head board...
No wonder I quit drinking.
You all have a great week.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 67
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Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 1/1/2010 11:33:52 AM
many don't want the truth to upset there fuzzy beliefs.
and many agree.
 ea®ly
Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 68
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 1/1/2010 1:00:45 PM
There was no ‘lie’ about it, but you seam to believe there was.


Um, ...no, the user who posited that the CC was a 'lie' is caught up in the single facet of this topic relating to 'truth(s)' and Einstein supposedly committing a willful fraud in some kind of war against 'god', if you read carefully, there's no 'seam(sic) to believe' about it (try reading the entire post for context, re: 'gaps'). The context was more 'intent' than 'content'.


The CC was never a fabrication. It is a prime example of not wanting to accept the truth in the face of leaving behind ones most cherished beliefs.



Perfect, and no need to employ the old 'tell', argumentum ad hominem, which really, ...says more about those who employ this fallacy than their intended targets of derision. It astounds me that for some who express themselves on these forums, ...it's their only emotional/intellectual ammo and their only motivation is anger, ...sad.

The reasoning that people use to form a position or argument says a lot about the lengths they'll go to in order to skirt logic and reasoning (kinds of 'truth(s)') when it doesn't suit any particular cherished beliefs(also, kinds of truth(s)), the converse probably also applies.

I can think of it as a scope of two extremes with belief(s) at one end; reason(ing) at the other (as different facets of 'truth(s)').

I think it says a lot about people who will forgo balance over ignoring one extreme to suit the agenda of the other in adjusting to the dynamic of understanding the world around them. I like to try to find a place between the extremes where the two types of "truth(s)" converge rather than diverge, ...and I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't somewhere in the middle of both extremes.


fuzzy beliefs.


I like this description, ...how sharply focused a belief is being dependent on how harmonious it is with the truth(s) of reason and logic. I don't see 'fuzzy' as being good or bad here. There are many beliefs that don't hinge at all on logic, reason or even any externally defined truth(s), ...their primary locus is based on "intent", here the idea of "truth" can be entirely self defined, ...it doesn't even need words.
 acuddler
Joined: 10/30/2009
Msg: 69
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 1/1/2010 6:13:26 PM
Margo - like magnets, opposite personalities always attract, to some degree, but unlike magnets they almost never bond well, or for long. The differences always generate more bad times than good times. Some people learn this the easy way-by observing others-while some people have to learn it the hard way; for themselves.

Some people need to fight before sex to generate enough emotion to have the sex. Their excuse is that they are having make-up sex to apologize for the fighting. In reality, they are too inhibited to just have sex for the sake of sex, or love. They need to become more animal like before they can begin rutting. The anger/fighting brings out their animal sides, and so makes the sex possible.

Happy New Year, every one.
 LeCutter
Joined: 2/25/2009
Msg: 70
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 1/2/2010 11:30:13 PM
I suppose if you consider truth some sort of hard fact that can be attained through perserverence, which I do not. The reality - seems to be at any rate - that there are multiple truths, no all encompassing great TRUTH that applies to everything. There are objective truths and subjective truths.

Nosce te ipsum! Know thyself! If you're at all honest with yourself than you must be prepared to sacrifice cherished beliefs for some truth. It doesn't take much to give oneself over to a religion/cult, but to move aways from that and face the cold stark universe as an agnostic/atheist is considerably more difficult. That's why I'm always impressed when someone makes that leap.
 thepleasantt
Joined: 12/27/2009
Msg: 71
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 1/3/2010 12:54:15 PM
I think it's much easier to discover what is untrue than what is true. It's too easy to switch beliefs from one set of untruths to another set of untruths, by discovering what one believed is wrong, then coming to the conclusion that the OPPOSITE is true. This is the kind of simplistic dualist human reasoning that gets us into trouble time and again.

The truth is, I think, if you think you have found out a truth about the world, you are most likely WRONG. Most truths we uncover are limited to a specific goal or desire we have in mind, and become useless when applied to other areas of life.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 72
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Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 1/3/2010 1:03:05 PM
If a truth is an absolute, which I think they are meant to be interpreted as, then, obviously there are frighteningly few truths, which to me me makes the statement, to find the truth, seem all the more relevant, as in there might only be one single truth.

And no one might have found it yet.
Seeing as most knowledge changes over time.

If you want to slightly water down truth, or leave it open to interpretation, then it isn't truth anymore.

So what some of us call truth, isn't, and should be called something else.

the musings of the day, maybe.
 indefatigabilis
Joined: 11/10/2009
Msg: 73
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 1/3/2010 1:10:31 PM

The truth is, I think, if you think you have found out a truth about the world, you are most likely WRONG. Most truths we uncover are limited to a specific goal or desire we have in mind, and become useless when applied to other areas of life.
Is this truth about truth wrong for the same reason, or is that what makes it right? I'm trying to keep up but I have short legs.
 thepleasantt
Joined: 12/27/2009
Msg: 74
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 1/3/2010 3:38:46 PM
It was more of a joke ^ My point being, don't let anyone tell you what the truth is, that in itself is suspicious. Everyone's gotta figure out what that is for themselves. And yeah - I could be wrong. "most likely"...
 ryanrucker
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 75
Sacrificing Cherished Beliefs
Posted: 1/3/2010 7:52:10 PM
''If a truth is an absolute, which I think they are meant to be interpreted as, then, obviously there are frighteningly few truths, which to me me makes the statement, to find the truth, seem all the more relevant, as in there might only be one single truth.''
aremeself..
an interesting concept.............! but instead of ''one single truth''.... beliefs' or as you said ''musings of the day''...maybe that is why'' many'' of us spend our entire life seeking truths....when in 'fact' there are none...thus, nothing to cherish, but the search
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