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Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 26
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matterPage 2 of 14    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)
Ok, so I'm not a Bush fan. At all. However, credit where credit is due. He (rightfully, and intelligently) is not commenting on the investigation until it's over. 'legal'wizard, even pretend lawyers should be smart enough to not be conclusive without all the facts. I don't mean to be offensive, but I feel I must apologize. (If you were clear on my opinion of Bush and then realized that I"m more impressed with Bush than you, you'd accept the apology.) Please. Get over yourself, and "know what you don't know." Your issues are showing. Again.
 LegalWizard
Joined: 5/2/2005
Msg: 27
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/14/2005 4:35:05 PM
Thank you for your recent posting. I accept your offering to clear the record in the spirit that it was offered.

And, for the record, my profile shows my profession as a Paralegal and I have never posted a single word that indicates that I was an attorney, notwithstanding that others jumped to that conclusion. It is a fact that anyone who wants to see the profile of the person who has posted a reply to any thread can simply click on the nearby profile link that appears under my photograph and instantly see who I am and what my publicly stated qualifications are.

Accordingly, in an attempt to clear the record of any misunderstandigngs, although I have no duty to sanitize the misinformation offered by third persons, I posted a general denial that stated that I stood by the facts iterated in my own postings and denied the conclusions and inaccurate data that others had wrongfully posted about me. Your assertion that I was a "pretend lawyer" is libelous and defamatory per se, given that my Profile publicly proclaims that I am a Paralegal.

Others have gone so far as to publicly ridicule me in a POF Forum posting as a "fraud" which is not only untrue and damaging, is also even more defamatory and libelous.

POF Moderators: if you truely oversee the postings please take note of the facts as stated in this posting.

If you have been libelled, send a report to a moderator.

Include the following:

1.) The Url of Thread
2.) The MSG#
3.) The relevant text


... and any relevant details you wish to provide./late™

 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 28
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/14/2005 4:46:52 PM
even pretend lawyers should be smart enough to not be conclusive without all the facts.
This is neither libelous nor defamatory, per se OR OTHERWISE.

Please take the point: given your immense authority, you should know better than to jump to conclusions based on what you hear on the radio and from other public forums. As I said before, even poor 'ole Dubya knows better than that! (I understand that his motivation is different than yours would be if you were to acknowledge what you don't know (as a member of the public, you don't know all the facts.) But as I'm SURE you know, 'legal'wizard, making snap judgments (especially as a member of the prosecution ) is a no-no.

 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 29
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/14/2005 4:54:00 PM
It is curious that they were making public statements on this case while there was an investigation going on, but no longer can since it's reached the puppet master himself. News today of at least one NOK who was executed as a result of this outing.
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 30
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/14/2005 4:57:48 PM
Personally, I think it's ok that there are no public statements; I do think it should have been that way from the beginning.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 31
view profile
History
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/14/2005 10:00:32 PM

And, for the record, my profile shows my profession as a Paralegal and I have never posted a single word that indicates that I was an attorney, notwithstanding that others jumped to that conclusion


Well, naming yourself "legalwizard" certainly helps people make that error. That is added to by your numerous legal references. Combine both together, and some people will be easily mislead into making that assumption.
 LegalWizard
Joined: 5/2/2005
Msg: 32
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 6:21:15 AM
Notwithstanding the vociferous and hatred-filled attacks of the President's critics, the underlying attacks made on Karl Rove center upon whether or not a federal criminal offense occurred regarding the ALLEGATIONS that Karl Rove disclosed the name of a covert CIA Analyst to the news media. When that proposition evaporates as being innacurate, the next position that the presidential critics will fall back upon will be the bluster of a political attack made by the partisans of the candidates that lost the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections which basically vents their collective spleen and generates far more heat than light.

The basic standard for the ignominious removal of a public servant from office is the commission of high crimes and misdemeanors. But if no criminal conduct was ever engaged in on the part of White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove, what remains is the raw and ugly, unvarnished malice and hatred of opposistion party US Senators, the liberal main stream news media, and a host of frustrated political activists engaging in the tactics of personal distruction poured out in abundance upon the President and also the closest members of his official family.

Those who remain outraged that the basis of the criticism, allegations of criminal conduct, have evaporated, leaving nothing but highly charged political rhetoric to substitute for the criminal prosecution that will never be, as an alternative to the coveted judicially ordred public "burning at the stake" of Karl Rove, so eagerly wanted and needed by those whose chief purpose in life, it seems, is to prescribe punishment for the legally innocent.

Here are some excerpts from the news that support my early contention that no crime was committed by Karl Rove:

Rove Learned CIA Agent's Name From Novak
By JOHN SOLOMON

WASHINGTON (AP) - Chief presidential adviser Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he talked with two journalists before they divulged the identity of an undercover CIA officer but that he originally learned about the operative from the news media and not government sources, according to a person briefed on the testimony.

The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of grand jury secrecy, told The Associated Press that Rove testified last year that he remembers specifically being told by columnist Robert Novak that Valerie Plame, the wife of a harsh Iraq war critic, worked for the CIA.

Rove testified that Novak originally called him the Tuesday before Plame's identity was revealed in July 2003 to discuss another story.

U.S. News

• Source: Rove said reporters told him of CIA operative's identity

The conversation eventually turned to Plame's husband, Joseph Wilson, a former ambassador who was strongly criticizing the Bush administration

Rove testified that Novak told him he planned to report in a weekend column that Plame had worked for the CIA, and the circumstances on how her husband traveled to Africa

Novak's column, citing two Bush administration officials, appeared six days later, touching off a political firestorm and leading to a federal criminal investigation into who leaked Plame's undercover identity. That probe has ensnared presidential aides and reporters in a two-year legal battle.

Rove told the grand jury that by the time Novak had called him, he believes he had similar information about Wilson's wife from another member of the news media

When Novak inquired about Wilson's wife working for the CIA, Rove indicated he had heard something like that, according to the source's recounting of the grand jury testimony.

Rove told the grand jury that three days later, he had a phone conversation with Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper and informally told Cooper that he believed Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, though he never used her name, the source said.

An e-mail Cooper recently provided the grand jury shows Cooper reported to his magazine bosses that Rove had described Wilson's wife in a confidential conversation as someone who "apparently works'' at the CIA.

Robert Luskin, Rove's attorney, said Thursday his client truthfully testified to the grand jury and expected to be exonerated.

"Karl provided all pertinent information to prosecutors a long time ago,'' Luskin said. ``And prosecutors confirmed when he testified most recently in October 2004 that he is not a target of the investigation.''

But at the same time, Wilson acknowledged his wife was no longer in an undercover job at the time Novak's column first identified her. "My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity,'' he said.

Federal law prohibits government officials from divulging the identity of an undercover intelligence officer. But in order to bring charges, prosecutors must prove the official knew the officer was covert and nonetheless knowingly outed his or her identity.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., said Democrats were resorting to ``partisan war chants.''

********************************************************************
My analysis:

I honestly believe that if the facts revealed in the above news story is true that any unbiased finder of fact will conclude the following:

1. The news media did not learn Valeria Plame's name from Karl Rove at all; Rove Learned CIA Agent's Name From Novak, a member of the news media community.

2. Rove testified that Novak told him he planned to report in a weekend column that Plame had worked for the CIA

3. Rove told the grand jury that by the time Novak had called him, he believes he had similar information about Wilson's wife from another member of the news media

4. When Novak inquired about Wilson's wife working for the CIA, Rove indicated he had heard something like that, according to the source's recounting of the grand jury testimony.

5. Wilson acknowledged his wife was no longer in an undercover job at the time Novak's column first identified her. ``My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity,'' he said.

6. Federal law prohibits government officials from divulging the identity of an undercover intelligence officer. But in order to bring charges, prosecutors must prove the official knew the officer was covert and nonetheless knowingly outed his or her identity.

7. Karl Rove is not a target of the Grand Jury investigation.

Regrettably for the Karl Rove haters, it is becomming very clear that Rove did not "out" the CIA Analyst Plame by disclosing her identity to the news media; it was the news media who informed Rove that Valerie Plame was associated with the CIA.

Valerie Plame was not a clandestine officer at the time the reporters briefed Rove about Plame's CIA employment.

Several reporters already knew of Valerie Plame's CIA employment prior to Rove receiving this knowledge from reporter Novak. Her CIA association as a non-clandistine officer was thus rapidly becomming public knowlege, due to the fact the reporters are in the private sector.

Rove never identified Valerie Plame by name, referencing her by association only as "Wilsons Wife" and only vaguely referenced her CIA employment as being "something like that" which much like "close, but no cigar" is not an uncatigorical affirmative "outing" of a clandestine CIA employee's identity.

The phrase "something like that" is not even a cut-and-dried unequivocal affirmative confirmation of her status as a CIA Analyst. The news media reporter still would have to bridge the synapse of Plame being with the CIA by personal conjecture based principally upon the "nondenial" denial of the elusive phrase "something like that."

Because Karl Rove has been singularly successful during his career as a political architect of Republican state and federal electoral victories, Democrats are clearly resorting to "partisan war chants,'' viscerally distressed to the utmost degree that the big fat juicy opportunity to enjoy the "Rovefest" immolation of Karl Rove, as he is tied to the stake in the public square, is not going to progress from their delighted imaginations into any sort of real world reality. The anuguish of rendering totally useless their "Burn the Witch" placards and the liberals plans to hire "Rent a Mob" to join with them in relishing the anticipated demise of this most hated presidential advisor is now being demonstrated by the duration and shrillness of the "Crucify Him" and also the "I Hate Republicans" clamour now coming from the crowd.

If there was no criminal violation of public law on the part of the White House Deputy Chief of Staff, Karl Rove MUST be punished to the greatest extent of the law!

If there was no criminal violation of public law, "Political Correctism" requires that he be publicly disgraced and turned out of office in ignomy. as the proper punishment for his criminally innocent behavior.

The Republicans must be taught a lesson for daring to enjoy majority status in the House of Representatives, US Senate, and occupation of the White House for two consecutive presidential terms. The will of the political minority is the supreme law of the land!

Obviously the President and his advisors are all "neo-nazis" and "criminals" and "conspirators" and, and, and, "big doo doo heads, so there!" Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

In a whisp of smoke, pffffffffffffffffffffffft; the imaginary case of the People vs. Karl Rove is evaporating until it is gone, gone, gone.

There is no jubilance in my heart about Karl Rove not only being innocent until proven guilty, but also of being not guilty as charged.

But I am weary of being required to play the part of "Master of the Obvious" with regard to exposing the members of the "Hate America First" Club who portray America as being other than the most magnamonous and beneficient nation in the history of the world with a bona fide track record of expending the lifeblood of our armed forces in support of establishing freedom, democracy, and the upholding the dignity of all men in places foremerly under the bloody and harsh rule of despots, tyrants, and dictators.

With regard to the "Hate America First Club," the collective electorate, formerly the silent majority, is softly whispering: "We're on to ya" much like the manner that one regular POF contributor once remarked.

The legacy of the mantle of greatness that history and unborn generations of Americans bestows upon Abraham Lincoln, Theordore Roosevelt, Ronald Reagan, and dare I say, George W. Bush, is manifest for all who are fair and unbiased to observe.

The critical detractors of the President and those maliciously attacking Karl Rove as a proxy for the public pillory of George W. Bush will apparently have to lick their political wounds until the next election cycle gives the "Hate America First" club the opportunity to gather together in conference assembled for the purpose of permitting the news media the opportunity to gleefully and adoringly gush over the nomination of their next Champion in the political fray as the partisans chant "Give us Barabbas!" and universally adore a political platform consisting of the esteemed planks of:

(1) "I Hate Republicans" and;
(2) the systematic dismantling of "In God We Trust" and "One Nation Under God" and "God Bless the United States and this Honorable Court" from public life, and;
(3) the continued assault on marriage as the basic foundational unit of Western civilization through the advancement of the Gay political agenda, and;
(4) Juvenile abortion without parental notification or consent of a guardian for an invasive medical procedure, and;
(5) Hate America First and Forever. and;
(6) a sincere and abject apology to the entire world for the malignancies visited upon all of mankind due to the brain-washed "strict construtionists" among the population of the United States who have erred by taking seriously, the contents of the Holy Bible, the Magna Charta, the Declaration of Independence, The US Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the unconditional surrender of the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese, the Marshal Plan, the political recognition of Israel, the defeat of Soviet Communism in the Cold War, the innitiation into the Free World on the part of Nicaragua, post-communist-coup Grenada, Kosovo, Serbia, Afghanistan, and Iraq, coupled with a promise to pay compensation to the despots and tyrants of totalitarian states occupying seats in a corrupt United Nations.

Oh, and how can I possibly forget, the ALL important Resolution from the floor to express the solidarity of the Party, with respect to the proposed revocation of Karl Rove's Birth Certificate!

Amen.
 JackJohnson
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 33
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 7:58:43 AM
Sounds like all this hinges on Novak's alibi for Rove...

Two neocons...

Can you believe this?

they catch Rove RED HANDED disclosing the name of a CIA operative on email and all they have to do is forge some alibi with one of YOUR "trustworthy" neocon columnists and they get out of this?



This is so typical of the political climate in the US right now.

The law is not the law.

OH and the Wiz :-) up here.. using this as a straw man attack to say liberals hate America... yeah right.

No.. again: we just hate Bush and his murderous thuggery running the US government into the ground.

We love the US and you're lucky we're staying around to try to change it back to what it was before this murderous fascist regime got into power.
 LegalWizard
Joined: 5/2/2005
Msg: 34
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 9:45:15 AM

This is so typical of the political climate in the US right now.

The law is not the law.


I believe that the following legal precept is still in full force and effect, while admittedly under heavy attack by the mainstream news media and also very beleaguered by the forces on the political left:

"Innocent until proven guilty."

And it is hard for me to imagine that someone who is not even the target of the federal grand jury criminal investitgation can be tar-brushed with the prospect of any shadow of criminal wrongdoing.

But anything is possible; after all, Clinton was re-elected and history will very likely affirm that the Clinton administration was hands-down the most ethically slime-covered "retail politics" American regime of the 20th Century.
 BulldogMedic
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 35
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 10:05:03 AM
You need to come up with funnier comebacks.
 JackJohnson
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 36
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 11:46:57 AM

after all, Clinton was re-elected and history will very likely affirm that the Clinton administration was hands-down the most ethically slime-covered "retail politics" American regime of the 20th Century.


So Bush's advisor Karl Rove discloses the identity of a CIA agent to the press and the Bush administration covers for him... So Bush had Powell lying bald faced in front of the UN and it was PROVEN that he did this. Bush started a war in which hundreds of thousands of people were killed for no good reason...Bush stole 2/3 of a trillion dollars from social security to give to the richest 5% of the income earners. Bush approved a contract for a missile system which is obsolete and doesn't work which we will pay 1.7 trillion dollars for over ten years. bush tried to cut combat pay to our military in Iraq by 1/3. Bush was a close friend of Ken Lay, whose Enron company stole TENS OF BILLIONS of dollars from California and was found guilty and never had to pay one penny back... Bush has appointed a federal court system of conservatives that have allowed the republicans to rig an election.

There is nothing but blood and dirt on the republicans hands.

Clinton was nowhere near as slime covered as this administration...
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 37
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 1:06:30 PM
'legal'wizard, on another thread you were oh-so-ready to jump on a jury and convict for treason, seemingly without hearing any evidence. I'm glad to see that at least you are THINKING about considering SOME facts...
 LegalWizard
Joined: 5/2/2005
Msg: 38
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 1:13:49 PM
Actually on a prior post I was saying that the fact that Congress has authorized military action changes the level playing field from the peace time first amendment rights of private citizens to say pretty much anything they want against a public official, as long as the statements are not patenly untrue and there is an absence of malice.

However, during time of war, the playing field tilts far in favor of the war powers of the state, so much so, that public statements that "adhere" to the enemies of the United States or give the enemies of the United States "aid and comfort" (which includes the contemplation of an enemy delighting in seeing military troops or the civilian population either lose morale or cease to support the government's war effort) which "comfort" I would include as being all statements made by any person whose loyalty to the USA is obligatory that possess propaganda value to an ememy, or publicly spoken, broadcast, or blogged messages that make an enemy of the United States cheerful. To me, all of this is treasonous activity.

Bush's advisor Karl Rove discloses the identity of a CIA agent to the press and the Bush administration covers for him...


Actually, according to even the liberal and biased mainstream news media, the testimony before the federal grand jury was that it was the reporters from the press who told Karl Rove that Valerie Plame was with the CIA.

Further, when Karl Rove spoke with another reporter he did name name Valerie Plame by name, referring to her as "Wilson's wife" and when asked if she was with the CIA, only replied "something like that" which remark is not exactly a verification or affirmation of anything.

It is also a MATERIAL FACT that even Ambassador Joseph Wilson admits that at the time Valerie Plame was identified in the press as being a CIA employee, she was not a covert agent. It is impossible as a matter of law to violate the criminal statute if the CIA employee is not working in a covert capacity.

So, now that the liberal and biased mainstream news media has gone public with these matters, it is time for the rank and file within the claque of anti-Bush haters to go back to the "think tank" and spin another story about how evil the Republicans and the Bush administration is, because these same old tired and untrue allegations have gone flat and are not being seriously listened to.

The federal grand jury has been investigating this matter for two years now, and after hearing the relevant testimony and considering the law, it has been announced that Karl Rove IS NOT A TARGET of the grand jury probe.

If I were on the legal team defending Karl Rove, given these facts, I would request that the prosecutors approach the grand jury and given that there is no apparent violation of federal law, let the grand jury return a "No True Bill" in the matter of the United States vs. Karl Rove.

A No True Bill from a grand jury has the effect of immunizing the same person from further prosecution with respect to this same set of known evidence and testimony, even from another grand jury that may be empaneled in the future, with regard to these same charges, unless NEW EVIDENCE that was not considered by the original grand jury surfaces.

Karl Rove would be in a much better position with a federal grand jury No True Bill in his pocket instead of being a target for the scathing remarks of his political enemies in the private sector.

An added advantage to holding a No True Bill from a grand jury under these set of facts is that the vocal private sector antagonists who continue to publicly say that Karl Rove violated a criminal statute by "outing" a CIA clandestine agent would discover that the privilege to libel a public servant ceases when there is actual malice. The courts have also previously ruled that a disregard for truth will legally infer malice on the part of the tortfeasor speaker making the scurilous untrue public charges against such a public official. Karl Rove would then hold an intentional tort cause of action that is founded in defamation and have the privilege of seeking a money judgement accordingly.
 Gar321
Joined: 7/6/2005
Msg: 40
view profile
History
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 5:53:43 PM
Well, fellow Republicans , Libertarians and those of you on the fence , looks like we're out numbered, I read two pages of this stuff and nowhere did I see mention of Kerry outing an undercover CIA agent, guess we won't hear much about that .
 KAT4EVR
Joined: 1/23/2005
Msg: 41
view profile
History
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 6:03:12 PM
Ya know, legal eagle.....aside from the crappy legalize, Rove should not have mentioned anything about this woman. So why did he? Did he crave the spotlight? is he tired of being just one of the "boys", what is up with that? How about moral issues. Oh, I know, as a lawyer, you think morality has no place in law. Well , for those of us who don't practice law, we just live from day to day and year to year as normal , ordinary citizens who are trying to stay away from criminals and trouble makers, we think Rove was full of crap. If he wants to shoot his mouth off about something then make it about someone who needs to be held up to the light. Not someone who was doing her job in the CIA. enoug bull from you . Go sit down.
 BulldogMedic
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 42
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 6:14:07 PM
Yeah, it's almost as if Rove had outed her in in Vanity Fair magazine, publishing a picture of her and all. How shameful.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 43
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 6:38:40 PM
He outed her, then a year later she appeared in Vanity Fair. Not an undercover agent anymore - get it?
 BulldogMedic
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 44
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 6:47:51 PM
So, as soon as he said "Wilson's wife" the game was over, and she was free to parade herself in VF? lol, ok.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 45
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 6:51:17 PM
How many wives do you think he has? Takes about 3 minutes on google to find out his wife's name.
 BulldogMedic
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 46
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 6:58:02 PM
Valerie Plame "Wilson": "Hey Chief, someone said 'Wilson's wife' was a CIA agent, so I'm going to the Vanity Fair photoshoot now. Talk to you later. Btw, I told my husband I was a CIA agent on our third date, my neighbors were all already aware of my 'covert' status, and it probably was kind of obvious that I worked for the govt when I drove the 5 miles form my Beltway house to CIA govt headquarters everyday. Bye!"
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 47
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 7:01:21 PM
Sorry, but now you're not even making sense. Sad that you feel compelled to trash those who served your country with honour to defend a traitor.
 BulldogMedic
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 48
The exculpatory facts of the Carl Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 7:03:03 PM
Ha! I win again.
 NittanyLion
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 50
The exculpatory facts of the KARL Rove/CIA Agent matter
Posted: 7/15/2005 7:30:08 PM

Well, fellow Republicans , Libertarians and those of you on the fence , looks like we're out numbered, I read two pages of this stuff and nowhere did I see mention of Kerry outing an undercover CIA agent, guess we won't hear much about that .
You mean it's actually staying on topic? Say it ain't so!

I must say that I enjoyed the fact that no one took your "bait." Changing the subject to avoid the awful truth works better in real life, I guess.
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