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Show ALL Forums  > Australia  > Global warming?......... Yes please!      Home login  
Joined: 11/13/2008
Msg: 5
Global warming?......... Yes please!Page 2 of 2    (1, 2)
I hear those woolly mammoths were good eating.
Joined: 11/25/2006
Msg: 6
Global warming?......... Yes please!
Posted: 12/31/2009 7:17:52 AM

The more humid an atmosphere becomes the more readily it loads to dew point and rain, the more it rains the more fertile and productive soils become, the more the water tables rise, the more the ground salts leech, the more the rivers and creeks flow, the more the wetlands, lakes and dams fill. That, has always been the result of natures global warming and of benefit to man. The evidence for it is everywhere, including mankind’s own living memory, and his written word.

Well it's working well so far. We have dried up rivers and empty lakes in Victoria that haven't seen decent water in 10 yrs. I'm sure there are many in NSW and WA too with some areas that have been in drought for 13yrs. But you keep to that theory and take some photos when that water starts running ............
Joined: 12/25/2006
Msg: 7
view profile
Global warming?......... Yes please!
Posted: 1/2/2010 10:11:03 AM
Historicaly speaking, over the last million years the earth has gone through global warming many times, around every 10,000 years.

Of course there is a down side, Global warming seems to be followed by Global Freezing. From what the scientist tell us, around 200 years between cycles.

What I have trouble grasping is the the idea that one country can make a difference by reducing emmisions, while the rest of the world does its own thing.
The way I figure it, once the warming has started, it cannot be stopped, and if the oceans rise? Hey does that mean my house will get ocean views?
 Island home
Joined: 7/5/2009
Msg: 8
Global warming?......... Yes please!
Posted: 1/3/2010 7:18:19 AM

Heat anything and it expands

back to basics, water when frozen expands, when it melts it retracts...

Full story
heat water it expands
cool water it shrinks
Freeze water it expands

Not sure whether it can expand more by freezeing or heating.
Suppose I could put ice cubes into hot tea to find out, But then would I?
 ToldYouSo returns
Joined: 1/29/2009
Msg: 9
Global warming?......... Yes please!
Posted: 1/4/2010 1:36:49 PM

Its quite obvious you are completely clueless.

Thank you for that Caves. But I was talking about heating the atmosphere not boiling water and as an aside, water can be heated above boiling point under pressure, can‘t it? We know that water expands as it freezes. I also thought that the process of freezing creates pockets of gas enveloped within the water (as seen by us as bubbles or voids). It is the gas pockets that makes ice lighter than water and causes it to float isn‘t it?

#4. Very. Very well said. But not quite right in your #16. Just read Caves #17 which adds additional (pertinent) info.

We can debate the pros and cons of science and the ‘fors’ and ‘agins’ of our opinions about climate change endlessly. This thread as I envisioned it is about where we as a species would be without it, and where we will end up if we end it.

Do we recognise, comprehend or understand the enormous benefits that man made global warming has made to human kind. Were we to stop it will this forever prevent the eradication of famine from this earth? It’s super phosphates (a super no no) that make soils more productive isn’t it? Productive much above the subsistence farming of the past where most of us now in the developed world can continue to develop it, rather than worry where our next feed is coming from, and help feed the less fortunate nations on their way to catching up. It has never been the starving millions who have taken the world forward, but the consuming few.

Equally so our habits and dependencies have contributed enormously to medicine, engineering, comfort, discovery, lifespan, leisure, the pursuit of happiness, exploration, a fair go, live births per thousand, knowledge, health, compassion, democracy, science, wealth (as in the ability to choose), whatever you like and wherever you go nothing would have progressed or gone anywhere without our contribution to global warming.

The only time we have been able to materially effect our planets temperature has been since the industrial revolution. It was a slow start to an exponential increase. In my view we are in a place of no retreat, for no man or nation in this time (no matter what the posturing) will ultimately be willing to give up it’s ill gotten (in retrospect) gains, which is perhaps the conundrum of the debate.

I personally don’t want to give up where we’ve come or re-visit where we’ve been. Nothing I’ve read convinces me that we have any but the very broadest conception of ’our’ part in climate change. We may indeed be contributing a miniscule percentage to a natural cyclic phenomena of an unimaginable time span. I don’t want to stop our growth or progress for to do that is to ultimately condemn the ’have nots’ to ’have nothings’ and the ‘haves’ like you and me to ‘having less’. It is my view that we may be better off devoting our energies to doing positive things better……. perhaps by legislation.

2 litre vehicle engines consume roughly half the juice of 4 litre engines. Legislate for that over a 5 year period and we’ll consume roughly half the petrol we do now and reduce by half the filth we pump into the atmosphere. We’ll pay less for petrol, less for the vehicle, drive a little more slowly and have less catastrophic prangs. Everyone wins.

Fluctuating, belching quadrupeds have eight tummies, taste good and ladies pretty much won’t wear anything other than the genuine article on their tootsies. Legislate over a thirty year period that the gas that comes out must be in equal amounts be absorbed by the green stuff that takes it in. Trees, strawberries, peanuts, open pasture, whatever. Surely the landholders holdings will improve slowly over time and become more productive and more valuable. If we’re eating less cow, we’re eating more veggies and grains (also grown by farmers) and perhaps growing thinner, living longer and in better health while we’re doing it. Give up the marginal land and deserts which might feed you for 5 (if you use phosphates) and starve you for fifty if you don‘t. Give this habitat back to those animals and plants that use it best. Everyone wins.
Joined: 7/19/2008
Msg: 10
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Global warming?......... Yes please!
Posted: 1/4/2010 7:34:15 PM
I personally have no interest either way

But travel through Eastern Europe or China and you can see very clearly
that we are influencing weather patterns if only taking pollution into account

The vast majority of quality arable land is low lying
X% of that will disappear
If that % is too large we will suffer
If not we probably wont

Joined: 11/25/2006
Msg: 11
Global warming?......... Yes please!
Posted: 1/5/2010 3:25:13 AM

I don’t want to stop our growth or progress for to do that is to ultimately condemn the ’have nots’ to ’have nothings’ and the ‘haves’ like you and me to ‘having less’.

Aaahh if only it actually worked that way! You must have heard the saying that "The rich get richer while the poor get poorer." Well that is the way the world works. Like any game at the Casino or the poker machines, for you to win big then 30 people before you have to loose. In order for the people like us in the "wealthy" nations to prosper or maintain our standard of living then someone else has to loose. This is what the small Island nations were trying to tell the politicians at Copenhagen.

It is my view that we may be better off devoting our energies to doing positive things better……. perhaps by legislation.

This is what comes at the END of the process. PEOPLE make and FORCE change and THEN it becomes law. Politicians don't suddenly wake up one morning thinking "I have a great idea, I'll pass a law today to reduce carbon." These things are driven by years of campaigns, protests, lobbying and often people like Bob Brown going to jail for what they believe in.

No you CAN'T have your cake and eat it too. But in a fairytale world you can just rub a lamp and it will happen.
Joined: 11/25/2006
Msg: 12
Global warming?......... Yes please!
Posted: 1/6/2010 5:56:26 AM

Actually laws force change - change in peoples behaviours and actions. Without changes in laws, there will be no change in behaviour. Ask any psychologist about the studies into human altruism....

Well if you really believe this then I suggest you take a look around. We have laws that you can't use a mobile phone while driving but see it 10 times a day. We have a law that cyclists must wear a helmet, how many kids in your area do you see wearing them in the street? We have laws against speeding, drink driving, theft, murder and that has obviously stopped all of those little problems hasn't it? I don't think I'm the one that has to talk to a psychologist here. You actually missed the point entirely and that was that is it PEOPLE who will drive the change in law anyway and not the other way around. Laws don't change unless a significant number of people bother the pollies who then want to get elected so they commission studies and lobby and eventually a law may be passed. It won't happen merely by someone suggesting in to the local MP.

Yes there is lots of differing opinion on the various subjects relating to climate change and it is much easier to throw in a few comments to divert attention away from the issues. There are companies who will loose millions if not billions of dollars if they have to clean up their act so of course they will spend thousands or hundreds of thousands to confuse or cloud debate. Let me refer you to the cigarette industry who did just that for 30 years, to the power companies over electromagnetic radiation from high tension powerlines, the mobile phone companies are doing it right now over emissions, Dupont about Teflon, the bottled water industry over BPA and plastic etc etc.

The trick is to see WHO is saying what and WHO is paying them to say it or supporting their campaign or funding their research. Then of course there is always common sense which has never been as common as people make it out to be. As with ALL of the above listed 'causes' the first people to point them out were treated like witches in the 12th century. It starts with a minority, takes years of public debate, eventually becomes a slim majority, then politicians take notice and then it becomes law. History and research tells me this, not uninformed opinion.

In relation to another poster about smaller cars and engines. My Swiss friends tell me that in Europe cars the same/similar to ours get generally 30% better mileage and believe it is the same in Japan listening to recent reports from Toyota. They would scream all the way to their politicians if they only got the same mileage we did. So why are our cars tuned/set-up differently? Why didn't we know this before? Do we doubt that the oil companies in conjunction with the car companies are not behind this? Just imagine how much it would cost them if our cars were just 10% better on mileage let alone 30%. Now who is going to take this one on?
Joined: 7/9/2006
Msg: 13
Global warming?......... Yes please!
Posted: 1/6/2010 3:47:26 PM
The solutions themselves tell me it is a scam.

All one has to do is offer prize money for the green energy that is cheaper than the competition without any subsidies.

For example; six prizes of two billion each. The first six companies that make green oil at $2/gallon at the pump in California will each be given cash to start up a factory, pay off investors, ect....

Progress not happening fast enough? Up the prizes to $4 billion each.

Compare this to Cap and Trade.

Here's a link that talks about the bad science behind GW.

It involves some reading and some stuff that is way over my head but stuff like one piece of data involving only four sensors to measure an entire continent is within my mental grasp. There's more. This link answered it for me. Whether or not Global Warming is really a threat, I don't know, but the science behind it is anything but.
Joined: 11/14/2006
Msg: 14
Global warming?......... Yes please!
Posted: 1/6/2010 4:35:22 PM

Quite frankly - the major problem with the whole debate is that its being run by politicians. And if you're happy to leave the solutions to politicians, I wish you well with that. To paraphrase - "If a politician is the answer, then it was a stupid question."

Thats the most intelligent thing you've posted.......this paragraph pretty much sums up the problem. Do you really think that politicians give a crap about global warming? All they care about is making money, some politicians will pretend to care just to keep the public quiet or to gain some extra votes but at the end of the day its all about getting rich. Take the whaling issue as an example......Rudd promised to tackle this issue if elected yet the slaughter continues, another broken promise.

Sure it can be argued that the public is responsible for the government that is elected and our voice can make a difference but lets face it......Copenhagan was a total flop, and the solutions being suggested at the moment (taxing people on carbon emissions) is yet another ridiculous scam to rob people of their hard earned money. They might take notice if everyone stood up one day and refused to work or pay taxes until a real solution is put on the table but that won't happen......we're doomed, not this generation, maybe not the next, but the future is bleak for this planet if this behaviour continues.
 ToldYouSo returns
Joined: 1/29/2009
Msg: 15
Global warming?......... Yes please!
Posted: 1/10/2010 12:44:52 PM

The vast majority of carbon in the atmosphere is derived from natural sources, such as plant decay……

Which we use as coal (or oil as in rotted microbial beasties) coming back to us as C02 in our closed system?

Rises in sea levels? Most reputable models will tell you that by 2100, oceans will have risen by between 15-30 cm at most.

Fair enough (and a much more likely scenario) than the scare mongering drivel being fed to us by the popular press. ‘Twas only a few months ago when even Aunty was pushing the line that Brissy will have to relocate, half of Sydney will be under water and don’t buy waterfront anywhere ‘cause it will be give-a- way by centuries end.

Throughout the history of the earth, there is nothing unusual about high levels of carbon in the atmosphere.

Try telling that to the great unwashed. Sorry, couldn’t resist. Studied something about this forty odd years ago. As I recall it was a calculation of the amount of sulphur and C02 being pumped into the atmosphere between the last two ice ages by the largest (and then active) 150 land based volcanoes. Seem to recall the calculations were something in the order of 9 times the annual man made contribution circa 1970. If this is the case seems to make a bit of a nonsense out of some of what’s being said now.

If we're serious about dealing with the problem, lets actually define what the problem is.

Pollution….. in all it’s forms (as distinct from global warming as an ’iffy’ bi-product thereof). The processes of modern humanity if it is to continue in both number and expectation will require a continuing increase in energy needs and consumption. Lets look at (or at least debate) alternative ways (as opposed to alternative energies) to reduce or eliminate it. Legislation is one way and as Piq suggests in his Budyko blanket paragraph (a second)….. to perhaps replicate what the volcanoes used to do.

Have you got a third?

Only one thing to say to you #24.……
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