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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed      Home login  
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 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 26
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How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?Page 2 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
I don't know, most people I know would at least cheat and steal a little bit, and everybody lies.

most little children think that they are the center of the universe, don't they?
and lots of adults too, yes?
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 27
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/9/2010 9:50:18 PM
The heart of man is evil above all else. We are born to imperfect humans who love us but their love is imperfect and affects us throughout our adolescent and adult lives.

First off nobody is inherently either good or evil. We are all mixtures of both, with "evil" being the self-serving part of us that would do so even by deliberately harming others. With regard to love, I suggest you don't confuse the errors of ignorance that injure our children with "imperfect" love.

I know what I believe to be true and without question.

One should ALWAYS question one's beliefs. More often than not, they turn out to be less true than we like to believe.

what does your innermost being tell you?

...That we are all in this together and we should love others as we love ourselves. Love will give us the courage to right the wrongs and end Man's inhumanity to Man.
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 28
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/9/2010 10:09:03 PM
I'm a lover not a fighter and I do question more than I should. Life has forced me to continue to evolve when sometimes I just want to stand still and savor my memories.
Love is what keeps me moving forward; it's my driving energy to continue. I can face all tribulations and challenges with patience knowing love has provided me with the hope and strength to so in kindness.


I still have a very warped sense of humor though.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 29
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/9/2010 10:36:56 PM

I do question more than I should.

It's impossible to question more than you should, because you can never question enough.

In this crazy world, a sense of humour (warped or not) isn't optional; it's an essential tool of survival. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that someone who can't laugh is already dead and is only waiting for the breathing to stop.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 30
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 12:37:19 AM

What no beer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Few people are as cute as mtn, but really, not giving you one was poor manners on my part.


You boys are talking, as if I am not here...

Dukky, of course you are forgiven.

Dbok, I got my eye on you...

I am feeling a bit scrappy...


Watching Oprah one day I saw an author Depak Chopka (sp) explain that there are only two emotions; love and fear.


I think that is Deepak Chopra's attempt, to oversimplify the two major chemical reactions, that take place within the limbic system; the uptake of either dopamine or adrenaline. See? Simple. Too darn simple, for me to buy it...there is a wide range within the two extremes, and I think to ignore those, nullifies the bulk of human emotion and experience. I also think that it is dangerous, to think in such black and white terms.


It's quite simple. People have vastly different ideas about what is best for society.


I think if it was so "simple", then there wouldn't be such a "vast" discrepancy in ideas. Just sayin'...


Observation #2- If your web cam smells like sex does that mean good people are passionately attracted to one another, or battled it out in opposition?
(I tried to behave today but it was just too hard).


I thought it just meant one likes to masturbate...ha ha, got ya on that one, Margo!


First of all. We are not fundamentally "good". The heart of man is evil above all else. We are born to imperfect humans who love us but their love is imperfect and affects us throughout our adolescent and adult lives.


What a decisively pessimistic view of this world, and human beings...good for me, that I don't buy it!


People are fundamentally good,

...evil is a learned trait.


Excellent point...


In this crazy world, a sense of humour (warped or not) isn't optional; it's an essential tool of survival.


Heartily, agreed...
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 31
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 12:54:51 AM
I'm understanding more and more why you have so many admirers.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 32
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 2:17:16 AM
^^^^ The admiration extends in all directions.

There are some amazing people, on these forums. I have learned so much...

Oh, yeah, aren't we supposed to be talking about, how we are passionately opposed to each other?
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 33
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How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 4:32:20 AM
RE Msg: 30 by Zephyr2553:
First of all. We are not fundamentally "good". The heart of man is evil above all else. We are born to imperfect humans who love us but their love is imperfect and affects us throughout our adolescent and adult lives.
I'm not convinced that we are "born evil". What I see is that given no advantage in either, most people tend to try to help others. It's therefore my belief that most evil results from self-interest, in the belief of many people that the advantages of being evil outweigh the advantages of being good. What I also see, is that this belief that "crime pays" seems to be learned from others at a very early age. We learn it from others.

But we learn so much at such a young age, that often, when we learn this, it's even before we can walk or talk. There are so many who believe that "crime pays" and so many absorb this concept from others at a very young age, that each generation seems to have very many who believe this. The combination of so many accepting this concept from such a young age, gives us the impression that it's innate.

The one thing that changes the heart of man is relationship. Not a religion, not a set of dogmas and ritualistic beliefs, but relationship with a real entity.
I'm inclined to believe that most of us are born have such a relationship, and it is only learning from others that dissuades us of our trust in such a relationship.

Most of us accept the concept of similarity, without being taught it. We accept that we can compare anything to anything, and if 2 things are NOT comparable, we need to state why. That we need to state why 2 things are NOT comparable, tells us that innately, we accept that anything can be compared to anything else. But if 2 things are able to be compared, they must have some basis for comparison, and such a basis of comparison is called a "relation", from which the word "relationship" comes. So it seems to me as if we innately believe all things are related, that all are kith and kin of each other. So it seems to me that we innately accept that all things are under the same umbrella, and that we can relate to that unified concept directly, just like any other form of comparison or relation.
 monalee1
Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 34
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 8:46:30 AM
hi... as a Christian my perspective comes from the teachings of the bible and my life experience... the bible says that any good in us comes from God but that we also have a choice whether to stay connected to God or to venture off.. it also says that when we disconnect from God we are open to all manner/suggestions of evil... in my own life I can now see that this was Absolute Truth ... blessings
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 35
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 9:27:00 AM
Hmmm. Does not the bible state in Roman chapter two:
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art the judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. And thinkest this, O man, that jugdest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgement of GOD?
Please keep an open mind. There are many good people in the world that are not Christians. They are not open to evil or the suggestions of it. This really is not a religious discussion; but as always someone tries to turn threads in that direction.
 monalee1
Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 36
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 11:11:42 AM
"There are many good people in the world that are not Christians. They are not open to evil or the suggestions of it. This really is not a religious discussion; but as always someone tries to turn threads in that direction. "

speaking of a closed mind and turning it into a religious debate... I gave my answer based on my beliefs, you gave yours based on your beliefs.. I get mine from the bible, others get theirs from Einstien, Oprah, new age etc.... beliefs should not be censored, hate and belittling tones should be.... if you can not stand a Christian perspective do not read posts from me..... blessings
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 37
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 11:28:08 AM


They are not open to evil or the suggestions of it. This really is not a religious discussion; but as always someone tries to turn threads in that direction.


speaking of a closed mind and turning it into a religious debate... I gave my answer based on my beliefs, you gave yours based on your beliefs.. I get mine from the bible, others get theirs from Einstien, Oprah, new age etc.... beliefs should not be censored, hate and belittling tones should be.... if you can not stand a Christian perspective do not read posts from me..... blessings



It has nothing to do with not being able to "stand" a Christian perspective and everything to do with hijacking a thread topic to a religious agenda.

The difference between a religious argument and a philosophical argument is not even subtle.

The religious argument proceeds from: God says "do not do X because I have said X is bad" end of story. It is not based in reality, but in superstition.

The philosophical argument proceeds from: X is bad and here is a series of logical arguments to show why X is bad and most often offers examples into evidence of how and why alternatives are flawed and how to correct it.

The religious argument, which proceeds from dogma, has no business in the discussion and therefore is not opinion, but a form of thread hijacking through "belief promotion", proselytizing and preaching (also against the forum rules) . I'm prepared to present that argument to the moderators should it be continued and I am pretty sure they can see how clear it is.

There is a place for religious arguments on the PoF forums and that is the Religious and Supernatural forums. This is not them.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 38
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How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 11:46:03 AM
hey, fiddler,

if I said that people have throughout history proven themselves to be a selfish bunch of asses, and the only way we will ever see light is through help from the creator.

is that presumed to be a religious posting?
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 39
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 12:06:44 PM

mtn; You are talking about the causes of emotions, I'm referring to the results.


Actually, I am talking about chemical reactions in the brain. They cause an "emotional" surge, but they are also a response to the environment around us. The way that they are processed in the brain, and the interpretive responses of such, hold a myriad of "feelings", that may motivate us, and we may act upon, given the direction our moral compass points to, in such given time.

When you say results, what do you mean? Our subsequent actions?


That eye doesn't look very friendly.


The "bat my eyelashes" emoticon is broken, so I had to use the next best thing...


People don't even know what good is! - they just think they do! And it's different for different people, so it gets passionate.


I think that people do know what good is, after all, most people have a conscience. I think that a lot of people hold varying views, as to the application of such.

For instance.

Monalee1's posts never bother me.


The difference between a religious argument and a philosophical argument is not even subtle.


I disagree. If one's religion is the touchstone for one's intellectual progress, then by all means I think that it is applicable.


The religious argument proceeds from: God says "do not do X because I have said X is bad" end of story. It is not based in reality, but in superstition.


Preaching to the choir here, initially...but, perception plays a role in truth...cannot discount that.


The philosophical argument proceeds from: X is bad and here is a series of logical arguments to show why X is bad and most often offers examples into evidence of how and why alternatives are flawed and how to correct it.


I agree.


There is a place for religious arguments on the PoF forums and that is the Religious and Supernatural forums. This is not them.


I agree, to a certain extent. Sometimes, they overlap...

But truly, I get what you are saying.

Hence...


if I said that people have throughout history proven themselves to be a selfish bunch of asses, and the only way we will ever see light is through help from the creator.


May prove your point...
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 40
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 12:12:49 PM

hey, fiddler,

if I said that people have throughout history proven themselves to be a selfish bunch of asses, and the only way we will ever see light is through help from the creator.

is that presumed to be a religious posting?


As mtn was quick to point out, context is all important. But in the wording of your post, yes, I would definitely call it a religious posting instead of a philosophical one because it implies a supernatural solution...or as the Greeks might say in relation to a drama, "Deus ex machina" to solve the problem.

While many religious philosophers have been inspired by their faith to reach results through reason and philosophy, this does not automatically grant a religious posting carte blanche acceptability as valid subject matter. I might suggest anyone fuzzy on the subject needs to either read an introductory text on Philosophy or perhaps take an undergraduate course or equivalent reading if they cannot tell the difference. It's really not that hard to see.

Or, for those of you who want to play the hard way, stick your head in a bucket of piranha fish.
 ea®ly
Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 41
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 12:42:49 PM
It has nothing to do with not being able to "stand" a Christian perspective and everything to do with hijacking a thread topic to a religious agenda.


Yup, there's a pattern that occurs with certain flavours of theism that made this a necessity here long ago. There are more details here:

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts7666528.aspx

These even apply (even more so) in the Religion forum, ...which should be noted, is not called the Religious forum.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 42
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 12:56:35 PM


While many religious philosophers have been inspired by their faith to reach results through reason and philosophy, this does not automatically grant a religious posting carte blanche acceptability as valid subject matter.


Very true...


I might suggest anyone fuzzy on the subject needs to either read an introductory text on Philosophy or perhaps take an undergraduate course or equivalent reading if they cannot tell the difference.


You mean, like Socrates to Sarte: A History of Philosophy? In the very first paragraph, in the introduction, it poses the questions, "What are things really like?", and "How can we explain the process of change in things?".

I think I just have more tolerance, for people's own process (most of the time...I suddenly feel, like these words will be used against me, at a later date).

I have seen people's perspective shift, and I have certainly felt my own.


Or, for those of you who want to play the hard way, stick your head in a bucket of piranha fish.


I'll pass...it might mess up my hair.


mt n what causes the chemicals? As I said in my first post on this topic I tried for years to discount this concept .. I know its hard to accept. Hunger=fear of starvation....Jealousy= fear of abandonment On and on it goes. The result is the same


Then explain apathy.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 43
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How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 1:04:13 PM
themadfiddler:

It has nothing to do with not being able to "stand" a Christian perspective and everything to do with hijacking a thread topic to a religious agenda.

Early on we had post #3

'With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.''~~~~~Steven Weinberg

... and then post #8

While most people have the same outlook on morals and ethics, they may not be logical thinkers (i.e. the religious).

...and then post #30

The one thing that changes the heart of man is relationship. Not a religion, not a set of dogmas and ritualistic beliefs, but relationship with a real entity.

....and even in your own post #46

It is not based in reality, but in superstition.

While I can appreciate that some (including myself) would not want to turn this discussion into a religious debate, this:

hi... as a Christian my perspective comes from the teachings of the bible and my life experience... the bible says that any good in us comes from God but that we also have a choice whether to stay connected to God or to venture off.. it also says that when we disconnect from God we are open to all manner/suggestions of evil... in my own life I can now see that this was Absolute Truth ... blessings

...seems fairly innocuous and not really worth a fuss. It also doesn't seem fairminded to censor a mild mannered post while more blatant attacks on religion go completely unnoticed.
 ea®ly
Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 44
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 1:21:03 PM
I think I just have more tolerance, for people's own process.


The problem isn't one of tolerance, it never has been. The problem (historically) has been with those who aren't at all interested in debate/discussion as much as they are in co-opting debate/discussion to troll an agenda.

There's a long history of online discussion, usenet is probably the best example of how those with an agenda to be disruptive, can silence an entire forum, render it useless for reasoned discussion/debate.



...seems fairly innocuous and not really worth a fuss.


As a former POF moderator, Themadfiddler is looking at this from a perspective of knowing the patterns, one needs only to read a posting history to get a good idea of "intent".


It also doesn't seem fairminded to censor


It isn't a question of "censor", it's clear in the site TOS and forum rules and guidelines what is expected in regards to decorum. As all who create an account must first agree to the TOS (and rules/guidelines) in order to have an account on POF.

It is a matter of users being "TRUE" to their word, their promise to abide by these rules. It would be nice if everybody would read and understand what they AGREE to, in regards to behavior, however, ...ignorance is no excuse.


blatant attacks on religion go completely unnoticed.


In all but a few specific types of "attack", this isn't against the rules, any idea can be attacked, as long as the post is on topic.


I was really thinking at a different level - such as the oft-implied assumption that human beings are the most important / best / superior creature on the planet. And perhaps most importantly "know" best, often based upon that assumption.


Interesting, I wonder if altruism could be seen as a negative withing this perspective.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 45
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 1:30:36 PM

the oft-implied assumption that human beings are the most important / best / superior creature on the planet.

I'm sure you appreciate the irony of a species that creates an ethical system it will not live by, that kills its own kind by the millions, using willing, fearful slaves who think they are free (and are actually dumb enough to think they are doing something good), to feather the nest of a few parasites at the top, that seems to be driving itself to its own extinction, actually has the audacity to think it is "superior" to other species.

That alone should tell us that all that cranial capacity is mostly a waste of space. Why do I think we can do better?...We obviously couldn't do much worse, so any change is likely going to be change for the better.
 monalee1
Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 46
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 1:39:40 PM
"As a former POF moderator, Themadfiddler is looking at this from a perspective of knowing the patterns, one needs only to read a posting history to get a good idea of "intent"."

.. my intent is to answer questions based on my personal experiences, my beliefs, my opinions, my insights, my wisdom, my intuition... no more or no less than anyone else... my history shows me stating my opinions on matters... they can be read or ignored, can be taken into consideration or passed off as nonsense but being a Christian is where my point of reference comes from, is your point of reference superior to mine??.. obviously depends on who you ask... you do not have issue with me, you have issue with religion because if I quoted Einstein or Oprah you would not even care about me but that I quote the bible as my point of reference you are offended and I am preaching... everyone is preaching their opinions, lets get on with the discussion......

OP... this example is your post in real time, good people are passionate about their beliefs and our beliefs vary and differ.... blessings
 andy510
Joined: 1/1/2010
Msg: 47
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 1:42:55 PM
I think that people are generally speaking evil because if we take the laws , some religious beliefs.....etc, the world will be just another jungle .
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 48
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 1:54:25 PM

you do not have issue with me, you have issue with religion because if I quoted Einstein or Oprah you would not even care about me but that I quote the bible as my point of reference you are offended and I am preaching


Not at all. e@rly, is correct in stating my intent in my post. There is a world of difference between stating one's belief that morality stems from adherence to a belief in a supernatural entity and giving one's self over to that entity as their humble servant and, for instance, living by the moral principles taught in the dogma taught by the adherents of that faith.

Now for instance, you could say, "in my faith we are taught that it is an important moral truth to love our neighbour as ourself."

Someone might argue that this idea precedes Christianity, and rightly so, but that's neither here nor there...at least you are talking about a concrete philosophy that may be acted upon, for good or bad. There is no "magical" element in this as there is in the notion "if people believe in and accept Jesus as their saviour, then society will become more moral" or conversely when they "disconnect from God" that they open themselves up to evil. These are supernatural assumptions with no grounding in philosophy and thus outside the parameters of a discussion for this forum.

Now if you want to talk about the philosophical ideas of Christianity that's an entirely different basket of loaves and fishes.

For instance there is the (to my mind and certainly that of "Hitch") morally repugnant and apocalyptic insanity of "Take no thought for the morrow" which has all of the ethical concern of a suicide bomber.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 49
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How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 2:33:47 PM

looking at this from a perspective of knowing the patterns, one needs only to read a posting history to get a good idea of "intent".

Okay... that's fair enough.

As I stated earlier, I have no interest in reading a discussion where someone is repeatedly quoting the bible chapter and verse. At the same time, I think that someone with religious views would be on topic if they presented an argument as to why religion is not a major culprit in the discussion of "How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?"

From the link to the forum rules provided by ea®ly in post #51:

Exclusivity of truth in regards to personal religious belief (Preaching):
- Examples:

(Not okay)

"Your religion is delusional because I don't believe in it"
...................
(Okay)

"Not being religious, I see such things as being delusional.

There is a fine line (very fine) of difference between these two statements... but I can recognize the difference. Under which category would this statement:

It is not based in reality, but in superstition.

.... fall?
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 50
How do fundamentally good people find themselves passionately opposed to each other?
Posted: 1/10/2010 3:05:06 PM


Under which category would this statement:

It is not based in reality, but in superstition.

.... fall?

Well let's take the entire paragraph in context:


The religious argument proceeds from: God says "do not do X because I have said X is bad" end of story. It is not based in reality, but in superstition.


Statements made about God are essentially non-falsifiable. They can neither be proven nor disproven. While blunt, arguments can and have been made that support my statement, to wit that morality stems entirely from naturalistic processes...further that there is no means to "test for God" in any system of morality.

I'm not arguing against the right of anyone to hold a religious belief. I am however arguing against the validity of injecting magical thinking into a realm where it is not appropriate t0 do so. I am not discussing whether or not a religious belief is delusional or not in this forum, as it would be off-topic
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