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 Gogetter1956
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 75
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Taken in Hand/Head of HouseholdPage 5 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
So how do you propose to settle the question of who and how, by simply ignoring those topics? Certainly I agree that in order to solve a problem, what to do and why to do it are most important, but how to do it does have to be discussed as well as who is best qualified.

That being said, I prefer to stay away from worrying about who to blame for a failure until after a solution is found, otherwise there won't be any work done on finding the best solution.

So now it's Femme and her partner? Nah, that's backwards.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 76
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/20/2010 5:11:55 PM

On the whole, it's very difficult to find men willing to lead these days. Leading is tough work and interferes with the playoffs.


Well, I think that's true. Doesn't seem to be much percentage in it these days unless you happen to hook up with someone like Femme. 'just sayin.

It's what comes after the well has been poisoned by all those earlier men who pissed in it, pissed women off by doing it, and still don't get it that the entitlement others now claim is the exact same entitlement that they themselves presumed was their exclusive birthright.

The fact that we males have had to pay for the privilege of leading by learning how to be good soldiers and being available to put our lives at risk doesn't entitle us to be jerks about it.

We lost the privilege--not right--of leadership because our predecessors abused it. What privileges are our children and grandchildren going to lose by our profligacy with fuel? You talk about leadership, but without responsibility all this talk of leadership is just bullshit. Any idiot can lead a naive girl down the primrose path. That doesn't make him a leader.

If you want to be accorded the honor of leadership, start earning it. Start taking a realistic look the long-term risks we face. Stop pining away for some vision of a glorified past that will never come again--if it ever really existed--and get to flippin' work.

Yes things are complicated. Yes, it's tough. Yes, it's scary. But if you don't start planning a better life for your grandkids based on the circumstances they're likely to face, you aren't a flippin' leader. You're a flippin' poser. It is what it is, dude. Deal with it.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 77
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/20/2010 5:14:56 PM

So how do you propose to settle the question of who and how, by simply ignoring those topics?


Not at all. Femme's future partner and she will have worked that out through their agreement on who gets final say.

BTW, GG, my last rant wasn't directed at you. It was just a general blast of steam.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 78
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/20/2010 5:56:51 PM
I'm not hard on our generation or myself. For the most part we owned up to the fact that women have rights and if they choose not to follow our lead they're well within those rights. It took us a while, and we balked at it, but in the end we couldn't deny them their rights, even if it cost us the privileges we thought we'd earned. It sucks for us in a way, because we got put through the "good little soldier" wringer for nothing. However, there's just nothing for it. It was what it was.

I'm hard on the men of my Father's generation, who came home from WW II and Korea expecting women to fetch, carry, and like it. They simply forgot that their wives and girlfriends never went through basic training, and couldn't see how their conduct would set the stage for such massive disaffection.
 Gogetter1956
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 79
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/20/2010 6:14:40 PM
When dealing with abuse of power you have two or more choices. One of those choices is to tear down the system. That is the worst thing to do and it has happened far too often instead of looking at the other much more reasonable options.

Head of the household is not a right or a privaledge, it's a responsibility. The same is true for all other family roles. There are no rights. There are responsiblities. The entitlement mindset demands rights an priviledges but deny's responsibilities. That is what is wrong with our society.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 80
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/20/2010 6:36:11 PM
It is a privilege, not a right, to assume the role. If no one is willing to grant you the responsibility, it is not yours to take. When you say that you are entitled to be the head of a household because of something God told you, pardon me for saying so, but that's just crap. You are not entitled to the role by virtue of your gender. Get over it.

That line of thinking is, simply and purely, an entitlement mindset. If men were once leaders by default, "because I'm the man" was how we led by example. And so we really cannot **** because everyone else has chosen now to follow that lead. Sorry.

Our grandkids are in for a world of hurt unless we get off our asses and start dealing with these environmental issues. Or maybe I'm wrong. But if you want to take the risk of going back to the 1950s without considering the possible costs to them, the ladies are not only within their rights, but they are damned right not to follow you.
 Gogetter1956
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 81
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History
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/20/2010 6:44:26 PM
I wouldn't go back to the 50's for anything. I'd go back to the farm and ranch in a heartbeat. That is where life is as real as it gets and rights and priviledges mean nothing because life is full of responsibilities and there is no time to squabble over who has the right to tell someone what to do.

As far as the environment is concerned, hysteria has ruled over logic for far too long and the impact the meenie greenies and other far lefties have had on our future has been devastating to say the least.
 Gogetter1956
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 82
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History
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/20/2010 7:01:23 PM
Many men have put on the apron. Jesus washed the disciple's feet. That didn't change Who He Was and Is. It just laid the groundwork for how all leadership SHOULD look. Nobody is perfect like Jesus Is. Granted, when there is an abuse of power, someone does need to step in and stop that abuse, but that doesn't require changing the system, only the way people operate within the system and that usually means both parties involved, not just one.
 Gogetter1956
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 84
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/21/2010 9:40:16 AM
Mz certainly you are entitled to your opinion. Not a propblem. I just happen to hold the opinion that your opinion is what has caused such a huge breakdown of marriages and the big excuse that is mostly used to justify your position is abuse.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 85
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/21/2010 1:46:34 PM
No, not abuse, GG. Lack of options or effective recourse in the event of abuse.
 Gogetter1956
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 86
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/21/2010 2:05:06 PM

No, not abuse, GG. Lack of options or effective recourse in the event of abuse.


You don't throw the baby out with the bath water. All positions of power need to have options on how to deal with abuses of that power, but abuse needs to be defined too. Right now it runs the gammut from not keeping up with the Jones's to murder. That's way too broad.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 88
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/21/2010 4:20:57 PM

You don't throw the baby out with the bath water. All positions of power need to have options on how to deal with abuses of that power, but abuse needs to be defined too.


Fair enough, but without a viable option in the event of actual abuse, what recourse would/did a woman have? Also, the freedom to end an association is a right. Denying someone that right would be consigning them to slavery. So even if someone doesn't have what either you or I would be considered a "good" reason for ending a marriage, it's really not our place to say.

I still say that if you really want to destroy a society, place all of the responsibility for raising children on women. Then, physically isolate them from all sources of social support. Then, tell them that they are less desirable then the women who their men encounter in the workplace. And then, tell them that their only other options are to live disreputable lives.

Near as I can tell, a significant minority of women just aren't happy in an arrangement like that--significant enough to cause generally accepted norms to break down when they decide they've had enough.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 89
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/21/2010 7:34:47 PM
color me confused


That makes two of us. You're exactly right--all you commented on was the fact the thread had wandered away from the OP's points. And it has. I'm not really sure what she wanted people to comment on, but maybe I didn't read what she said carefully enough. I got the impression something erotic was involved, but that's probably just my overactive imagination acting up.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 91
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/21/2010 11:55:08 PM
So Paul, ... under which model of social organization do we place all the responsibility for raising children on women, provide those women with no back-up and no guidance, isolate them physically all day while their husbands drive significant distances to work, give them the message that they're less desirable than the women in the workplace, and then blame them when they can't deal with the arrangement?

The feminism of the '70s was, in no small part, a reaction to the inherently unteneble nature of the nuclear family model.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 92
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/22/2010 7:48:41 AM

I am sure that we would agree whole heartedly that a totalitarian govt. is not the answer.


We do agree on this. Whereas conservatives only see a danger of totalitarianism coming from socialists, I am concerned about corporate statism and theocratic threats to representative government as well.

Handing money out to people who aren't prepared to invest it well for the long term is no solution. People who don't feel that they have earned the benefits they receive tend not to value them. I have no problem with making benefits conditional on earning passing marks in school, job training, or in a verified job search. But subsidizing poverty is not the same as making opportunities available. Back then if you were the wrong color it was still a problem getting work. And there were many penalties involved in earning money while receiving aid.

There were some wrongheaded things about The Great Society, including the procedures that made recipients feel that they were unwelcome, less-than, parasites, and locked into a system that kept them poor. You can't help people with disdain, no matter how much you spend with that attitude. On the flip side, when you see those less well off as competitors who are getting benefits that are being denied you, it doesn't make for a smooth transition into the mainstream. Multigenerational welfare is not just about unmotivated individuals, it is also about disdain from the mainstream. Henry Ford paid his workers higher than prevailing wages for many good reasons. Stimulating demand for his products was one of them. In the long run, you grow an economy by paying the highest wages you can afford, not the lowest. That is a practice that generates long-term growth in value for shareholders.

When women entered the workforce en masse, guess what: the supply of educated workers doubled but did the number of professional jobs? Probably not. Does that mean we, as a collectivity, have the right to deny women the opportunity to have a career? No. Do we have to like the side effects of their individual decisions? No. But that's how a free market works, isn't it? Do we have to respect their choices, unfortunate though we think they might be? I think we do. Don't you?

LOL!!! I've been known to quote Jesus a time or two. I especialy appreciate it when He busts the self-righteous. You don't strke me as someone who refuses to think and uses "the rules" as justification, but isn't that what fundamentalists of any religion do? I have no idea, for example, how someone who claims to be a Hindu could riot or tear down the temple of a neighbor's religion, but it has happened. It's not just Christian hypocrisy that I take issue with. But there aren't many Hindus trying in various and subtle ways to compromise the operation of my government.
 Gogetter1956
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 93
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/22/2010 11:36:35 AM
You know what Ace? There have been a lot of things done in the name of Christianity that have no sound basis found in the Bible. I personally have a lot more trouble with the churches I've been invloved with that I now consider to be on the lunatic fringe, infested with feminist theology and the same entitlement mentality that has invaded our society, than I do with the fundie churches. Why is that? The clanging cymbal.

On both sides of the isle, the #1 killer of marriage is self centeredness. Entitlement IS self centeredness.
 Gogetter1956
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 94
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/22/2010 4:44:13 PM
Well Paul, certainly from what I've heard, if you ask men what their #1 desire is, the majority will say "enthusiastic sex". If you ask women what thier #1 desire is, the majority will say something along the lines of "emotional security".

Anyone that demands what they desire without giving to the other what they desire is self centered.

A fundie church is one that holds fairly traditional views based on more of a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Generally, my views lean that direction but with the recognition that the context and other passages will give clues as to how literal it should be taken. It's important to understand who is being spoken to and there is a lot of disagreement as to whether it all applies to us today or if it only applies to the person it was spoken to. That requires some study and I tend to lean in the direction of it applies mostly to who it was spoken to and it's reckless to claim it all applies to everyone. I consider myself to be a Spirit Filled Fundie that has a fairly good clue about some things but I also know there is yet much to learn.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 95
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/22/2010 10:04:44 PM
Well, fundamentalists. Whether their crazy interpretation is actually anything like an accurate reflection of Christ's message is very much subject to question.
 Gogetter1956
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 96
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/23/2010 12:17:49 AM
So what do you think is wrong with taking the Written Word of God as it is, in context and considering who it was originally written to or about along with cultural and historical considerations in mind compared to those who just pull out any verse and try to apply it at will?

Which is the most rational and reasonable way to approach it once you decide the external evidence is sufficient to accept it as reliable?
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 97
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/23/2010 1:03:08 AM
Too many committees with too many biases, and any interpretation that promises an easy out via the rapture just has to be nonsense. Just sayin'

Much better for those who don't understand a passage just to admit it. That's an honest literal intepretation. "This is what it says. I have no idea what it means. Here's what I think it could mean, but there's just no way to be sure." That would be honest. But to make up all those crazy stories about the rapture and the tribulation and the end times, and then claim that those stories are literal interpretations is, in a word, insane.
 Gogetter1956
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 98
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/23/2010 8:38:10 AM
Well I have to agree there are many things that are held onto like they are cut and dried when they are not. Revelations is not written in a literal presentation, so it is not proper reasoning to try to interpret it literally. A person needs a real good working knowledge of the Bible and prophecy as well as apocalyptic literature from that time period to really understand it.

All I'm saying though is it's a lot better to use good judgment than poor judgment to base your faith on. The fundie church I am involved with now at least has love and is willing to agree to disagree with me on areas where we differ whereas the churches that have based their theology on cut and paste rationalizations such as feminist theology have a serious clanging cymbal problem.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 99
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/23/2010 1:56:20 PM
No doubt. Love is the key. Glad you found an organized spiritual community that loves you as you are. I still yearn for that, but must admit I stopped looking quite a while ago. There are many things about conventional Christian dogma that chap my hide. Even though feminism isn't one of them, I can still relate to the feeling.

Yeah, that clanging cymbal thing. Sometimes I think that I've got a case of it myself. On a day like this I'm not sure I'd know what agape'd be like if it bit me on the ass.
 Gogetter1956
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 100
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History
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/23/2010 7:23:04 PM
Well Ace, sometimes you just have to forget about the feelings for a while and just do the actions a la 1 Cor 13. It's not always easy and I am by no means perfect, but I hold that standard as my goal and try to evaluate how well I acheived it or not daily.

Finding a church isn't necessarily the answer for everybody, but it's not too difficult to hear the clanging cymbal. I hope I've learned enough now to distance myself from that sooner than later from now on.
 5150Rivergirl
Joined: 8/3/2008
Msg: 101
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 11/19/2012 3:51:17 PM
Reading too much 50 Shades..
 SpanksBottom
Joined: 7/11/2016
Msg: 102
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 7/17/2016 11:50:57 AM
You and I should be talking....E
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