Notice: Forums will be shutdown by June 2019

To focus on better serving our members, we've decided to shut down the POF forums.

While regular posting is now disabled, you can continue to view all threads until the end of June 2019. Event Hosts can still create and promote events while we work on a new and improved event creation service for you.

Thank you!

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 raxarsr
Joined: 7/10/2008
Msg: 26
view profile
History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...Page 2 of 12    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)
and dont forget....Jesus said that if you dont have a sword.....sell your cloak and buy one
 SAguy_06
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 27
view profile
History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/21/2010 4:10:56 AM

The only people I've heard refer to them as "Jesus Rifles" have been in the media in the last few days. I suspect someone made up the phrase,


Do you hang with many al Qaeda?...

Im sure a tree fell in the forrest yesterday, cuz I didnt hear it-didint mean it didnt happen.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 28
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/21/2010 4:36:06 AM
Well, at least the military of one country has enough sense about this isue.


NZ army to remove Bible citations from armaments
By RAY LILLEY, Associated Press Writer Ray Lilley, Associated Press Writer – 47 mins ago

WELLINGTON, New Zealand – Biblical citations inscribed on U.S.-manufactured weapon sights used by New Zealand's troops in Afghanistan will be removed because they are inappropriate and could stoke religious tensions, New Zealand said Thursday.

The inscriptions on products from defense contractor Trijicon of Wixom, Michigan, came to light this week in the U.S. where Army officials said Tuesday they would investigate whether the gun sights — also used by U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq — violate U.S. procurement laws.

Australia also said Thursday its military used the sights and was now assessing what to do.

Trijicon said it has had such inscriptions on its products for three decades and has never received complaints about them before. The inscriptions, which don't include actual text from the Bible, refer numerically to passages from the book.

New Zealand defense force spokesman Maj. Kristian Dunne said Trijicon would be instructed to remove the inscriptions from further orders of the gun sights for New Zealand and the letters would be removed from gun sights already in use by troops


The complete article is at this link:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100121/ap_on_re_as/as_new_zealand_weapon_sights
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 29
view profile
History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/21/2010 6:19:59 AM
OIL..Operation Iraqi Liberation was abandoned as a code for the oil war because it was just TOO blatant..thus rebranded Operation Iraqi Freedom in an Orwellian sense. Bush told Chirac before the invasion that this was a war between Gog and Magog. Rumsfeld attached biblical verses in Bush's daily briefings to help feed his delusions about these wars being a crusade. After "bring em on", and the "crusade" slip, the calmer heads realized they had to distance themselves from the religious war angle since it would only aid in recruiting for insurgencies and cost US troop lives in the long run. If we are going to have wars based on lies, and conducted serepticiously to avoid the crusades implications, the inscriptions on the gun sights were a big ooops...my bad.

Truth is, that middle east wars are the new Crusades no matter how we candy coat em. Yes, we need our God-given oil unfortunately placed under the lands of others, but the evangelicals were the major supporters of going to the Crusades, (87% of them), and make up a large portion of the military and mercenary forces.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/20/opinion/20marsh.html
http://vodpod.com/watch/2009843-blackwaters-christian-crusaders-eliminating-muslims-the-islamic-faith-from-the-globe-
With mercenaries outnumbering troops in both theatres, and the Blackwater/Xe sorts of Christian Crusade bloodlust and criminal activity, we can be assured that far more US troops will have died than necessary because of the invaded people knowing that these wars are Crusades. The scope fiasco certainly does not help.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 30
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/21/2010 6:28:16 AM
A poster or two on this thread with experience with the product has confirmed that it is a superior product to other brands


Perhaps those posters could help us understand how do they know that those products are better. Are they military experts? Are they testers of equipment for the military?

What I know about the military procurement procedures don't give me much faith to believe that the best product available is always the one selected by the military. I know that the military has a contract with Trijicon, and although I am not 100% percent sure about it, I am inclined to believe that it is one of those contracts entered into by the military under their regular procedures. It is known fact that when those contracts are examined by knowledgeable people, the results of the investigation may show that some strange arrangements were made by interested parties.


That said, I agree that it could definitely cause problems with the perception by Muslims that the labelling is an indicator that we are on a Crusade and that has to be avoided.


I also agree with that point. And it should be easy for someone to help us understand if there is reason to believe that the company was/is acting on good faith, or if the company has colluded with someone in the military to get away with that attempt to instill a religious element into the conflict by providing the soldiers with tools marked with religious references.

How easily could the answer to this issue be obtained? From what I understand, Trijicom portrays itself as a company guided by values. In order not to mis-interpret them, I will post here what Trijicom says in the web about itself in the About Us page:


TRIJICON'S VISION
Guided by our values, we endeavor to have our products used wherever precision aiming solutions are required to protect individual freedom.


TRIJICON'S MISSION
Guided by our values, we will continue to be a leader in the design and manufacture of high quality, innovative sighting systems for use by Law Enforcement, Military and Individual customers.

TRIJICON'S VALUES
• Honesty/Integrity
We will be honest, dependable, trustworthy and fair towards each other, our employees, our customers and our suppliers.
• Teamwork/Dedication
We will work together as employees, customers and suppliers, valuing the unique contributions of each, to produce optimal aiming solutions.
• Customers
We desire long-term relationships with our customers. We will listen and continually improve our products to meet their needs.
• Quality/Innovation
We will strive to attain a zero-defect rate in all our processes. Our products will be made to maximize durability and service life. We will continue to lead our industry by encouraging creative solutions.
• Morality
We believe that America is great when its people are good. This goodness has been based on biblical standards throughout our history and we will strive to follow those morals.


So, if the company is doing business based on morality, and goodness "based on biblical standards throughout our history and we will strive to follow those morals," and this applies to the products that they sell to " Law Enforcement, Military and Individual customers, then one would expect that all their products would be coded in a similar manner with those biblical references, whether they are intended to be used by military, law enforcement, or private people, wouldn't they?

So, those people who own those products could answer the question very simply.

Do the products sold to private citizens and law enforcement bear the same inscriptions are those in the military?
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 31
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/21/2010 8:29:44 AM
Ha ha I think the fact that Oz and NZ both ALSO use the weapons says something about their
1) affordablity
2) dependability
3) quality

To debate that is just silly.


Trijicon said it has had such inscriptions on its products for three decades and has never received complaints about them before. The inscriptions, which don't include actual text from the Bible, refer numerically to passages from the book.

This is KEY to me. They don't contain ACTUAL BIBLICAL REFERENCES. As I have said repeatedly, MOST COMPANIES IN THE USA ARE OWNED BY RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. The WalMart guy, for one example. Procter & Gamble was well-known to be Catholic-owned back in the day (I have no idea now).

I used to have a phone number that began with 666. Watch out!
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 32
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/21/2010 8:31:24 AM
JWG86...


those few letters/numbers don't impact performance one bit.


It isn't a question of performance... it's a question of appearing to violate one of the main regulations that the DoD has adopted for its' operations.

If you're required to NOT espouse one religion over another, in any way, and yet you do so anyway... that is where the problem lies.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 33
view profile
History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/21/2010 9:12:56 AM
^^^Gandhi summed up the sentiment..
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
Mohandas Gandhi
Eric Prince and his army of mercenaries of Blackwater/Xe epitomizes what Gandhi disdained.
 ForRumOnly
Joined: 3/16/2009
Msg: 34
view profile
History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/21/2010 9:33:35 AM
If putting religious coding on military equipment is acceptable, then there should be references to the Koran as well. Give those to the troops. Why not Jewish, Hindu, Wiccan references, too? Surely not all troops are Christian, and if I were in the military I certainly would want to choose my own message rather than have one forced on me. IMO, better none than discriminate. It's not about who I'd shoot with the weapon, it's what offends me and violates MY religious freedom.
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 35
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/21/2010 10:04:50 AM

It's not about who I'd shoot with the weapon, it's what offends me and violates MY religious freedom.

MY having a certain religion doesn't violate YOU having a religion. This is what so many people don't understand about "separation of Church and State". It's not freedom FROM religion, it's freedom FOR religion. It's not letting our government tell you what you must be, religious-wise. Nowadays it's become so **stardized that it's come to mean "no reference to any god anywhere", which wasn't the intent of it at all.

You all may be interested to know that pert near ALL your representatives at all levels of government are religious folks. Including, I'm not sure if you heard, our president. He's got a somewhat interestnig religious background his own damn self.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 36
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/21/2010 10:54:59 AM

ETA: yes, the civilian version of these optics is identical in every way that I am aware of to the military issue.


Then, can you tell us which biblical references are imprinted in the equipment that you own?

I have searched and looked in the brochures and other pages available at Trijicom website, however I can't find any indication of the existence of those specific codes. Do you have a link that will provide 100% proof that there is no difference between the civilian and military instruments sold by this company?
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 37
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/21/2010 1:39:18 PM

But...a scope with a serial number that has some biblical attachment that otherwise works fine, as compared to one of the same design, by the same company, the only difference being in the serial number...please....


It is not that simple! If the company is supposed to have a policy of doing business based on what is on its web page, but then the instruments that it sells to the civilian public are different from those sold to the military only in those inscriptions, don't come to us with your "...please...."

It is a serious matter that someone should explain very clearly. If that is the case, some people must have made some agreements beyond the limits of what they are authorized to do. I would call for a congressional investigation and would examine every line of those contracts!
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 38
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/22/2010 5:16:10 AM

Well done. Appropriate action taken, problem solved. Appears then they will still get the equipment that works and no one will be able to raise a fuss.

Right?


It may appear like that, but it also appears as if the company would like to head-off any investigation on these matters. After I posted about the need to find out about exactly how the contracts were awarded, I read that there are other people calling for a congressional investigation, and I hope that they are more influential than me, just a low level POF poster.

After reading other posts in this thread, I am more convinced of the need of a thorough investigation:


Rev. C. Welton Gaddy, president of the Interfaith Alliance, said in a letter sent Thursday to President Barack Obama that the gun sights "clearly violate" the rule against proselytizing. Gaddy added that "images of American soldiers as Christian crusaders come to mind when they are carrying weaponry bearing such verses."

Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, contacted The Associated Press last week about the Scripture citations. He said he had received complaints from active-duty and retired members of the military. Weinstein said he couldn't identify them because they fear retaliation.


These are very serious issues. I am especially interested in getting to the core of the matter related to the fear of retaliation expressed by members of the military who complained about the bible coded materials issued to military personnel.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 39
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/22/2010 6:36:31 AM

As promised, an update. My ACOG Ta11F has "5:16" after the serial number. I googled it and other people posted up that their TA11F had MT5:16. Dunno why mine doesn't have the MT, but it is plain to see that the Bible verse reference is on mine as well. For those of you who don't know the TA11F is not bought under contract by the DoD that I am aware of, they use the RCO (marines) or other NSN models based on the TA31, so whether mine has the "MT" or not is immaterial. Others did. Mine just had 5:16 after a space after the serial#. Either way, yes, civilian ACOG's have the Bible Verses. Here is the link for the TA11F where I got my info:

http://www.washingtonfishingfools.com/smf/index.php?topic=9131.msg67146


Thanks for the answer.

As much as I would like to believe you, and I would like to add that I appreciate your honesty in answering the question, the doubt still remains.

It is not altogether clear to me that there are no differences between civilian and military products from Trijicom as it relates to the bible codes. As you said it yourself: "Dunno why mine doesn't have the MT." The lack of MT seems very important to me because it would indicate clearly that it is not a biblical code. Imagine Pat Robertson saying: "8:1" or "5:2" People wold be somewhat perplexed, don't you think? Some of them may even start to think that he may have lost it!

Tell you what, I just located a retailer that carries Trijicom products near to where I live. I'll go to check it out. Seeing Is Believing, John 20:19-31
 FL CO
Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 40
view profile
History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/22/2010 8:53:48 AM

Then, can you tell us which biblical references are imprinted in the equipment that you own?

I have searched and looked in the brochures and other pages available at Trijicom website, however I can't find any indication of the existence of those specific codes. Do you have a link that will provide 100% proof that there is no difference between the civilian and military instruments sold by this company?


There's no civilian regulation on these sights, so anyone can own them. JWG could walk into a military/LE supply shop right now and buy one off the shelf without question. They don't come cheap, but they're readily available to whoever has/is willing to spend the money on them. Call up a few gun shops or Trijicon themself
 Double Cabin
Joined: 11/29/2004
Msg: 41
view profile
History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/22/2010 11:59:39 AM
Its not intolerant to expect the secular enterprise of occupation and war to be carried out secularly. This is not a religous war, and as pointed out we are in fact not a "Christian" country.

Long live our Constitutional Republic, may it survive all attemtpts at compromise by theocratic impositionists.
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 42
view profile
History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/22/2010 1:08:15 PM
"Its not intolerant to expect the secular enterprise of occupation and war to be carried out secularly. This is not a religous war, and as pointed out we are in fact not a "Christian" country.

Long live our Constitutional Republic, may it survive all attemtpts at compromise by theocratic impositionists."

Yeah, not religious for any except the ones who yell "Allah Akbar" as they explode/attack. Or attack fellow soldiers on base.

If I get shot by an AK-47 with "Alalh Akbar" painted on the stock, to whom do I lodge my complaint?

Liberal naivete never ceases to amaze me.


BTW- since war is 'secular', do you believe we should immediately discharge all military chaplains of all faiths??
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 43
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/22/2010 2:16:25 PM

All of Trijicon's verses refer to light/sight. Matthew 5:16 was clearly what was meant by the lonely "5:16" on my optic. Matthew 5:16 (NIV): "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven."

Go check out a TA31 or something and let me know what you find. All of mine have had some reference to a Bible verse.

Also, if 5:16 is not a Biblical code, why is MT5:16 a biblical code? That logic doesn't jive. MT could mean anything. So could 5:16. The whole argument was about the intent behind it, and the "5:16" on mine clearly refererrs to Matthew.


The mere existence of some instruments without the capital letters is corroboration that those letters are added onto those that are sold to the military. Nobody would object to the 5:16 numbers because without the letters MT before them those numbers aren't a biblical reference. They may be just light/site ratios, or some other technical specification.

It has been widely reported that the military from New Zealand, Australia, and The United States have already acted to correct this issue, and the company has said that it will drop that practice, and further it will provide the means to remove those markings from the scopes. I am guessing that the $$$$$$ signs are more powerful for them than the biblical values that they wanted to uphold.


What is there to investigate? The owner of the company was a Christian and started the practice decades ago. His son honored him by continuing. It was quietly done and not talked about. There is nothing to investigate. Of course those officials are "scared of retaliation". People liked the verses. Not all, but everyone I know of did except on THIS forum and in the media.


Since the military brass has said that there was a violation of law in this matter, and there may be evidence that the company didn't have a 100% homogenous policy of stamping the instruments in the same manner, I think that an investigation could bring out who was responsible for this entanglement of the integrity of the military and the fanaticism of christian fundamentalists. An investigation could also bring out in the open all the facts regarding the award of the contracts. IMO any time that there is controversy related to the military contracts it is good policy to have an investigation of the facts. The people needs to be reassured that the military is what is supposed to be and not the instrument of special interests groups.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 44
view profile
History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/22/2010 5:25:22 PM
The discussion has degenerated into those who admit that they are happily and joyfully in the crusades, and those who wish to diffuse a dangerous situation that could lead to nuclear consequences. The Gung-ho but scared to go, against the been there/done that, and actual believers of the peace of their faiths. I appreciate that there are folks who served and have to believe in what happened, as much as I appreciate my brethren who have killed, maimed, survived and seen the worst of human instincts.

To blatantly put up a sign that we are in a religious war against Islam and the Arab world is to condemn untold thousands of our own to futile, lifelong suffering from the effects of ego and war. To use the Bible as a weapon, knowing that it will kill thousands of our own in the end, is to put it politely, friggin evil.

In the real world, killing does not stop with the victims. The Victors" deal with their survival for the rest of their lives. the "Survivors" do as well, as survivor guilt kicks in, and PTSD keeps climbing on the back decades later when one least expects it. I did not know any of the people I killed and keep on killing with unexploded ordinance generations later. Some will never forget as they die off.

The people of the invaded lands will again hold this invasion for generations. We will dehumanize them and they will in turn dehumanize us in an endless feedback loop. That is the way of war and the NEED for enemies to define tribes.

The Christmas Truce in the trenches of WW I serves to remind us, that given all the other alternatives, not pissing people off in the first place to the point where guns are drawn against people you don't even know or have any quarrel with, is supremely stupid, manipulated, inhuman and inhumane, and that for the most part, all we wish to do as humans is get along, thrive, sing, dance, love, live and mind our own business. It is when governments, profiteers, and people of power with agendeas who get involved, that the masses suffer from supreme greed and idiocy. Jesus Rifles were merely the latest manifestation of that crap. I like looking back to the Christmas Truce in the trenches...to both remind us of our humanity, and our foibles..

http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/christmastruce.htm
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 45
view profile
History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/26/2010 5:08:24 AM
OH yeah...that "special humor" acquired by those who do the dirty work for corporate America. Rush Dimbulb called the Abu Ghraib torture documented in photos,""This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation, and we're going to ruin people's lives over it, and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You [ever] heard of need to blow some steam off?"

Desecrating Korans, blowing up Mosques, wiping out entire families with drones, doing routine breaking and entering terrorizing entire families are" just people trying to have a good time in the midst of war. " When a country is being invaded under false pretenses, and you are swearing to GOD that this is not a Crusade, these little things like rifle scope scriptures, torture, desecration, civilian death and terrorism, do have an effect on the people that our troops are sent to be in the midst of. Every "little faux pas" that we pull off out of ignorance or maliciousness, comes back to haunt everyone in the conflict.

When one is going through indoctrination to become a killer, there is a desensitity training session to help those being sent to war, to view others as less than human, entire cultures included. Whether it's "hajiis" or McCain's "gooks", that dehumanization process only gets worse as more of your own are blown away. It's a negative feedback loop of making matters worse, the worse it gets.

"Failure" also occurs as a moral failure to respect other cultures, their sensitivities, and to ignorantly or maliciously violate their cultures. Supposedly we are not fighting the Iraqi and Afghan people. So why insult them? I am amazed at the dehumanization process to readily embraced by the chickenhawks who have never had that training.

Benjamin Busch, a Marine infantry officer, and Iraq attack Veteran, had a good essay on the subject on NPR last night.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122945924
Snip..
"Although the rifle equipment was stamped as a private act by a private company, it was sold to governments, and therefore unavoidably and knowingly coupled with politics. Biblical quotes were thoughtfully chosen — thoughtful enough not to be allowed as innocent of larger context.

By branding weapons with Christian messages, there is a deep and ugly blending of religion, politics and bloodshed, and it has unwittingly painted our government and military with the embarrassing language of "crusade."

America is largely composed of people who consider themselves Christian, separated by various interpretations of the same book. But I did not go onward as a Christian soldier. I went forth as an American, a Marine. I was sent by my country to fight a threat, and thereafter with the best intentions of democracy, not theocracy.

Our efforts in the Middle East were complicated enough, and small symbols are examined carefully by our opponents. Based on my understanding of the teachings of Christ, he would be very disappointed to see his Gospel assigned to war of any kind in the first place.

I leave you with a verse that has not been stamped on our weapons: "But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you" — Matthew 5:44."
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 46
view profile
History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/26/2010 7:58:38 AM
Considering that our leadership of the past decade could not possibly be so inept and ignorant, we must consider that they planned the error on terror perfectly to increase global resistance to US empire, thereby giving us carte blanc to spread our troops wider and wider. Those anti-American, peace huggers from the National Intelligence Estimate, wrote "Trends in Global Terrorism: implications for the United States," circulated within the government in April 2006 and partially declassified in October of that year. It states that "the Iraq War has become the ‘cause celebre’ for jihadists...and is shaping a new generation of terrorist leaders and operatives."

http://tinyurl.com/mcu9e
snip..
"The intelligence estimate, completed in April, is the first formal appraisal of global terrorism by United States intelligence agencies since the Iraq war began, and represents a consensus view of the 16 disparate spy services inside government. Titled “Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States,’’ it asserts that Islamic radicalism, rather than being in retreat, has metastasized and spread across the globe.

An opening section of the report, “Indicators of the Spread of the Global Jihadist Movement,” cites the Iraq war as a reason for the diffusion of jihad ideology.

The report “says that the Iraq war has made the overall terrorism problem worse,” said one American intelligence official. "
end snip.

So...16 US spy agencies agree, that we have significantly increased terrorism across the globe because we decided to invade Iraq instead of actually bringing the 9/11 alleged perps and supporters to justice. Are they anti-American? War is hell? Ever been there? Have you heard that old saying that "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"?

Here is some documentation on the "Iraq Effect" on global terrorism attacks. Scroll down to the figures. Though I doubt that facts matter to most war huggers.
http://www.lawandsecurity.org/publications/Iraq_Effect_Full_Study.pdf
 FL CO
Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 47
view profile
History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/26/2010 8:37:03 AM
I definately agree with those talking about the dark humor. There's a good bit of it in LE/Corrections as well.
 milt_n_bradley
Joined: 10/14/2009
Msg: 48
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/26/2010 8:37:16 AM
Good...
George Jr. called it a "crusade"
Looks like he was right...

 Double Cabin
Joined: 11/29/2004
Msg: 49
view profile
History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/26/2010 11:56:07 AM
NurbyDriver: I'd insult conservatives but since your assertion of "liberal Naivete" only comes from ignorance I don't wan't to offend some of my friends that envision themselves as conservatives here unjustifiably. with all due respect I encourage you to actually review the VERACITY of the circumstances our armed forces find themselves in and look at like an American, not a reactionary "conservative" caught up in self absorbtion and denial of the priniciples behind our Republic. Do you know what a Constitutional Republic is? A Theocracy? IMHO real Americans don't invest in unsubstantiated, deceitfull, and vitriolic rhetoric. What a bout you?

"Think! Its very Patriotic.

Some great stuff gentleman, thanks for the conversation.

For those that try and purvey this as no big deal then would it not just as easily be an even smaller deal if you just got rid of the references? If its no big deal why go to the time/expense of it in the first place?

Yes, as a nation of the free and developed world our military is not a tool for crusade. Anyone that thinks so is with all duer espect an unAmerican anachronysm IMHO.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 50
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 1/26/2010 4:06:48 PM

Are you suggesting that "intention to directly sanction or promote Christianity" is the relevant test?

It would be easier to explain the problem to you if you'd be willing to clue me in to your starting point. Do you believe that "intention to directly sanction or promote Christianity" is what determines appropriate behavior by the military?


That's is precisely the reason why I think a full-blown congressional investigation is appropriate.

What if such an investigation were to uncover that some back-room deals were made by people that broke the law, and the common bond between the partners was their religious 'fervor'?
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...