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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...      Home login  
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 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 96
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Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...Page 5 of 12    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)
"I didn't ask the Afghans, not concerned with what they say...I asked soldiers I am with and not a one cared."

"THe rag heads should be glad we arent dipping bullets in pigs blood and not be worried about some "jesus" optic."

"I'm more than willing to debate any legal issues related to this country's war against Islamic jihadists with anyone. Fifth columnists who habitually slander their own country, and so help the merciless, barbaric 7th century Muslim savages whose reason for living is to slaughter all of us, deserve to have their dishonesty and disloyalty exposed."

^^^^Proof positive, that we have our share of barbaric Christian jihadist/crusader savages. Oh how we love our perfect victimhood in the US. "They hate our freedoms", or as Bush lied yet again, "America was targeted for attack because we're the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the world."

The attack on 9/11 was not done in a vacuum. It was a response to our aggression in Muslim lands and our undying support for Israeli terrorism of Palestinians and it's neighbors. It takes two to tango in conflicts like these and our response to 9/11 could not have been worse in escalating the violence, recruiting yet more extremists on both sides, and in alienating the US from the Muslim world. It's almost as if Bush worked with bin Laden to orchestrate the perfect wrong response to create a forever war and to solidify the perception in Muslim lands that the US is engaged in a Crusade against Islam.
The Jesus Guns were merely a re-enforcement of that image of the US Crusades in the minds of Muslims.

Here is what bin Laden said of the situation beforehand. "The Western regimes and the government of the US bear the blame for what might happen. If their people do not wish to be harmed inside their very own countries, they should seek to elect governments that are truly representative of them and that can protect their interests."-bin Laden, May 1998. "We swore that America wouldn't live in security until we live it truly in Palestine. This showed the reality of America, which puts Israel's interest above its own people's interest. America won't get out of this crisis until it gets out of the Arabian Peninsula, and until it stops its support of Israel." -bin Laden, Oct. 2001. The FBI acknowledged the reasons for the attacks in testimony to congress "One of the primary goals of Sunni extremists is the removal of U.S. military forces from the Persian gulf area, most notably Saudi Arabia."

Our response to 9/11 was to exponentially increase US military presence in the Middle East and to engage in unrelated wars that have resulted in the death, poisoning, maiming, displacing and terrorizing of tens of millions of innocent Muslims. We installed a couple more "apostate" puppet regimes in the Muslim world as well.

Rumsfeld's 2004 Task Force acknowledged "Anti-American attitudes. Opinion surveys conducted by Zogby International, the Pew
Research Center, Gallup (CNN/USA Today), and the Department of State (INR) reveal
widespread animosity toward the United States and its policies. A year and a half after
going to war in Iraq, Arab/Muslim anger has intensified. Data from Zogby International
in July 2004, for example, show that the U.S. is viewed unfavorably by overwhelming
majorities in Egypt (98 percent), Saudi Arabia (94 percent), Morocco (88 percent), and
Jordan (78 percent). The war has increased mistrust of America in Europe, weakened
support for the war on terrorism, and undermined U.S. credibility worldwide. Media
commentary is consistent with polling data. In a State Department (INR) survey of
editorials and op-eds in 72 countries, 82.5 % of commentaries were negative, 17.5%
positive.3
Negative attitudes and the conditions that create them are the underlying sources of
threats to America’s national security and reduced ability to leverage diplomatic
opportunities. Terrorism, thin coalitions, harmful effects on business, restrictions on
travel, declines in cross border tourism and education flows, and damaging consequences
for other elements of U.S. soft power are tactical manifestations of a pervasive
atmosphere of hostility."

"If there is one overarching goal they share, it is the overthrow of what Islamists call the
“apostate” regimes: the tyrannies of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Jordan, and the Gulf
states. They are the main target of the broader Islamist movement, as well as the actual
fighter groups. The United States finds itself in the strategically awkward — and
potentially dangerous — situation of being the longstanding prop and alliance partner of
these authoritarian regimes. Without the U.S. these regimes could not survive. Thus the
U.S. has strongly taken sides in a desperate struggle that is both broadly cast for all
Muslims and country-specific.23"
"U.S. policies and
actions are increasingly seen by the overwhelming majority of Muslims as a threat to the
survival of Islam itself. Three recent polls of Muslims show an overwhelming conviction
that the U.S. seeks to “dominate” and “weaken” the Muslim World.24"
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/dod/dsb_strategic_communication.pdf

It is this US xenophobic racism that keeps the people in occupied lands enraged, and more enraged with each incident of innocent citizen massacres via rifles and drones. Those in the ranks who feel they are the superior Crusaders proudly becoming the caricature of what occupied people resent most, are in fact endangering their fellows on the ground. With every re-enforcement of a perceived US war on Islam and "ragheads", resolve grows within the insurgency to teach the arrogant invaders a lesson as so many other empires learned in the past. We are no longer facing the small, rag-tag remnants of bin Laden's extremists. The vast majority of people who are shooting back at our gunboat "democracy" are citizens of occupied lands who have lost far more than we can imagine. The keyboard warriors here are indeed the real threat to US military lives, to the prospects for peace, and the economic and moral bankruptcy of the "Homeland"/Fatherland.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 97
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Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/22/2010 7:37:00 AM
Oh...factor in these 'extremest' groups might very well take control of the one resouce that is even worth being here for...oil...then see how well our country runs.


So when all these voices have been saying since the Cater Administration, that we need to start working on energy independence, they have been consistantly been laughed at...tree hugger, oil phobic, enviromentalist.

the fact is we dont own that oil in the middle east, and war is not making oil prices cheaper, add on the trillions were paying for War, whats the cost ofthat barrel of oil now?

off topic<<<<

no one saying the scope should not be used, or the mission is wrong...just leave the "Flare" off...
 MrLove45
Joined: 1/31/2010
Msg: 98
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Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/22/2010 7:49:17 AM
Sarah , this guy reminds me of something from that movie Full Metal Jacket when Sr Drill Instructor Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: says at one point when he was 'making marines' ....he says by the time I am finished with you , you will be angels of death praying for war.....this guy actually brought that bag with it's entire contents....I cant believe I once believed that bullisht but that was another lifetime ago and I am proud to say that I refused to be that far gone. I do realize and hope that our troops come home one day ,and that they had no say so in the matter , they volunteered not knowing in 2000 that a damn fool was being selected by the supreme court and the ensuing events. Hum how much money do an enlisted man makes in comparison to a private contractor, haliburton/ blackwater or whatever the hell they are calling themselves makes?

but nevertheless since that damn fool w bush got us over there knowing that it wasn't going to be no easy fix getting us outta there....
hell, I tend to like this guy's off cuff suggestion of 'up and pulling out, hell we can't stay there and hold their hands every step of the way....yes in all likelyhood their will be civil wars, and corrupt factions fighting for control and as in any species 'the strong will always survive, we can only hope that the conditions on those that are not of the majority are humane and with some consideration of the minority.....
hell how can america be spreading some fake democracy when her own house isn't in order?
 MrLove45
Joined: 1/31/2010
Msg: 99
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Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/22/2010 8:14:33 AM
well congrats to you Marine now do continue to do your job and bring you and your 50,000 brothers and sister's safely back home....

really not here to debate someone over why christianity isn't accepted in a country where the dominant religion is Islam.... you would think that even though there are oviously differences of religion that you would or could grasp what all you have in common.... you would think that you could be openminded enough to understand if someone invaded your home that you wouldn't welcome the occupiers with open arms and his religion too. Lets be real, this isn't about spreading democracy at all, I mean who would prop up Hamid Karzai, only bush. Its more like the profiteering of the military industrial complex, and the oil industry pockets sure are getting fatter too....
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 100
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Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/22/2010 8:59:24 AM

The vast majority of people who are shooting back at our gunboat "democracy" are citizens of occupied lands who have lost far more than we can imagine.


What is your evidence for this claim about these "occupied lands," wherever they are? Or is it just one more product of your imagination?

It's obvious you know nothing about the origins of Islamic jihadism, which date back at least 150 years. Both the Soviet and the American military interventions were reactions to Islamist aggression, and not causes of it. But I don't expect people who lead cheers for Islamist savages to know or care much about facts.

It's clear you want Muslim jihadists left alone, to murder anyone they happen to believe has no right to live. Helpmates like you make it easier for them to accomplish their goal of installing a worldwide umma, living under the cruelest form of Islamic law. That, of course, makes it necessary either to exterminate all the rest of us, or turn us into slaves. Your apologism for this enemy of civilized people everywhere--this sadistic death cult with its stonings, beheadings, and brutal oppression of women--is as loathsome as it was to spread propaganda for the Nazis.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 101
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Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/22/2010 9:16:42 AM

My initial comment was intended as a compliment. Turns out that I was off the mark. My compliment triggered responses that informed me that my respect was misplaced. Thank you for clarifying.


I take that as quite a compliment after all. If someone thinks it's a bad thing to uphold our Constitution, or to wish this country well, or to want to see Islamist barbarians who've chosen to make war on us destroyed, or to despise people who pave the way for this enemy by undermining our morale, then I'm glad to see them condemn everything I stand for. It lets me know what *they* stand for.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 102
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Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/22/2010 9:27:47 AM
"What is your evidence for this claim about these "occupied lands," wherever they are? Or is it just one more product of your imagination?"

The people of Afghanistan and Iraq consider their lands to be under occupation. The vast majority of people shooting at our ill-placed troops, are not Muslim Jihadists. The Muslim Jihadists, very few people, mostly Saudis, attacked the US in retaliation for US policies in and military bases on their lands. We reacted perfectly wrongly, exacerbating a bad situation into something far worse, a perfect recruiting tool for far more extremists, and highly counter to our intended goals. I notice some here blanket all of the Muslim world into the comfy label of jihadists, when in fact the percentage of fanatics on boths sides of the ocean are extremely small. As others have noted time and again, we would react the same way the occupied citizens are reacting to us, if we were on the other side of an invasion. Most people of all faiths would much rather live in peace. It is when governments get involved and start mucking about in the affairs of others, that these tensions are manufactured and escalated. If you want to read about a sadistic religion, look into your own Bible before casting stones.

Where were the "constitutionalists" during the trashing of it during the Bush regime? I didn't hear a peep other than the ACLU and some left leaning groups.

http://www.military.com/news/article/iraqis-marines-try-to-convert-muslims.html
"We say to the occupiers to stop this," said Sheikh Mohammed Amin Abdel Hadi. "This can cause strife between the Iraqis and especially between Muslim and Christians . . . . Please stop these things and leave our homes because we are Muslims and we live in our homes in peace with other religions."

"Iraq is investigating a report that U.S. military personnel in Fallujah handed-out material that is religious and evangelical in nature," said Rear Adm. Patrick Driscoll, a U.S. military spokesman, in a statement e-mailed to McClatchy Newspapers. "Local commanders are investigating since the military prohibits proselytizing any religion, faith or practices."


In interviews, residents of Fallujah repeated two words - "humiliation" and "weakness".

"Because we are weak this is happening," said a shop owner who gave his name as Abu Abdullah. "Passing Christianity this way is disrespectful."

"The occupier is repeatedly trespassing on God and his religion," said Omar Delli, 23. "Now the occupier is planting seeds of strife between the Muslims and Christians. We demand the government in Fallujah have a new demonstration to let the occupier know that these things are humiliating Islam and the Quran."
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 103
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Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/22/2010 1:56:50 PM
"The occupier is repeatedly trespassing on God and his religion,"

"Seems like an easy fix , just send an army of hippies, (an oxy-moron , i know!)"

A lot of hippies did serve, unlike speshal young chickenhawks who sqauwk their shrill cackles from the comfort of daddy's house. If we had a draft today, the chickenhawk bravado from this new brood would probably disappear and we would have a more representative military, less prone to being Crusaders, xenophobes and racists. They made a sequel of Full Metal Jacket, on the life of Dan Quayle, chickenhawk extraordinaire in his day...Full Mental Jacka$$. Time for an update.
And a reminder of who did serve and who chickened out.
http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

And just how does a 5 year old get so obsessed with a presidential bj for 17 years?
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 104
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Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/22/2010 3:11:51 PM

The people of Afghanistan and Iraq consider their lands to be under occupation.


So you assert. I doubt you know what motivates "the vast majority" of them, in the absence of valid public opinion surveys. I also doubt your comfy assertion that only an "extremely small" percentage of Muslims are jihadists.

It's not really my Bible, but I could have predicted your hostility toward Christianity. It accompanies current apologism for Islamic extremists as reliably as it accompanied condemnations of capitalism in Soviet propaganda of the 1950's.

You don't support your accusation that the Constitution was "trashed" during the Bush Administration with a single fact. And hyperbole doesn't make an uninformed claim any truer. If you know constitutional law so well, why don't you state, specifically, exactly which provision of the U.S. Constitution was violated so wantonly during those years, just which court found that violation, and in what case? Chief Justice Rehnquist wrote a couple books on how constitutional protections have tended to recede during every war the U.S. has ever been in, and he never noted that anything unusual in that regard was happening under Mr. Bush.

Humiliation, weakness, and shame are all factors in the rise of modern jihadism--but they have to do with Islamic culture itself, and not with any actions by the U.S. If I wanted to spend the time, I could cite many statements by influential Islamist thinkers and writers--Maududi, al-Banna, Qutb, Azzam, and others, made years or even decades before any American presence in the Muslim world--that make clear the important role these resentments played in fostering Islamic jihadism. There are some parallels to the resentments which contributed to the rise of Nazism in Germany, and Islamists in the Middle East (the Mufti of Jerusalem was only one example) were often very sympathetic to the Nazis and their anti-Semitism.

Your quoting of unknown locals is disingenuous. No one has any reason to believe that a brief statement attributed to one person on the street is at all representative of the many millions of people in that country. The speaker could easily be an Islamist who intentionally arranged to be "helpful" to whatever reporter quoted him. It's not a hard tactic to figure out, and it can be an effective way to spread disinformation.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 105
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Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/22/2010 7:10:55 PM
"So you assert. I doubt you know what motivates "the vast majority" of them, in the absence of valid public opinion surveys. I also doubt your comfy assertion that only an "extremely small" percentage of Muslims are jihadists."
The links have been provided in many threads, repeatedly as in this one, that valid public opinion surveys show that the vast majority of the occupied wish that the US would leave their lands. To continue to deny this is up to you to prove at this point. Numerous surveys of the occupied also showed that most of the Muslim world opposing occupation by the US empire do their opposition based on policy and actions by the occupying forces rather than religion. Again, if you choose to ignore reality, it is up to you to prove otherwise.

And as a cafeteria constituionalist, you did not notice the dismantling of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution under Bush and the gang, there is no reasoning with you. It is tiring to provide facts to people who ignore them and hide under their convenient narratives contrary to reality. The reality based community is under no obligation to baby sit delusional people.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 106
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/22/2010 8:11:11 PM
In an attempt to take this back on topic:

Trijicon, the gunsight maker that has imprinted Bible verse numbers on its scopes, has announced that it will no longer imprint the verses on the sides of scopes intended for the U.S. military, and will also provide clients with the kits to remove the Bible verse numbers from existing scopes.
Brian Ross looks at the biblical verses written on firearms.

More Photos

An ABC News report earlier this week revealed that the Michigan-based company, which has a contract to provide up to 800,000 scopes to the U.S. military, prints references to New Testament chapters and verses in code next to the model numbers of its scopes. The scopes are used by the U.S. Marine Corps and Army in Iraq and Afghanistan, and by U.S. allies in those countries, and for the training of Afghan and Iraqi troops.

"Trijicon has proudly served the U.S. military for more than two decades, and our decision to offer to voluntarily remove these references is both prudent and appropriate," said Stephen Bindon, Trijicon president and CEO in a statement. "We want to thank the Department of Defense for the opportunity to work with them and will move as quickly as possible to provide the modification kits for deployment overseas."

Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell said the Department of Defense "applauds the voluntary actions announced today by Trijicon."

Morrell said the coded Bible reference were clearly inappropriate. Said Morrell, "It is not the policy of the Department of Defense to put religious references of any kind on its equipment."

Earlier today, Gen. David Petraeus, who commands CentCom, which oversees U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, told a D.C. thinktank that the company's practice was "disturbing …and a serious concern for me" and field commanders. He said there had been considerable discussions within the Department of Defense about how to deal with Trijicon's practice.

The Trijicon statement said that the company would: "Remove the inscription reference on all U.S. military products that are in the company's factory that have already been produced, but have yet to be shipped" and "Provide 100 modification kits to forces in the field to remove the reference on the already forward deployed optical sights."

The company also said it would ensure future procurements from the Department of Defense are produced without scripture references,a nd offer foreign forces that have purchased the products "the same remedies."

Haris Tarin, director of the Washington, D.C., office of the Muslim Public Affairs Council, a civil-rights group, said his organization welcomed the announcement. Said Tarin, "We must ensure that incidents like these are not repeated, so as not to give the impression that our country is involved in a religious crusade, which hurts America's image abroad and puts our soldiers in harms way."

Ibrahim Hooper, communications director for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said that Trijicon had made a "responsible move ... that will help reduce or eliminate a potential danger to our nation's military."

So, once the practice was out in the open, they stopped it. And Gen. Petraeus pretty much echoed what everyone here who expressed concern.

It's not that I'm particularly clever. Frankly even someone with a Sarah Palin intellect could see this was a bad idea, as long as they weren't blinded by dogma. On a personal note, I'm not a Christian, but I have tremendous respect for Christians. Whenever you hear about someone here who has set up a safe home for sex slaves in Thailand, or building a medical clinic in sub Saharan Africa, it's invariably because of their faith. And this sort of thing just makes it more dangerous for them. In doing a search on this I came across editorials written by real Christians who were appalled that there were references to Bible verses when sighting on a target in a scope. I'm not a Christian, but I know enough about the faith to know that this isn't.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 107
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Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/23/2010 2:04:44 AM

but next will be that US soldiers wear crosses


I dont know why this is so hard to connect...any personal adornment allowed by the military is between the solider and the military.

any equipent or material issued by the millitary/government...other than what is used for the expressed porposed for the practice of a soldiers faith ...should not have any adornment other than that which needed/helps the quipment to function...

Now if a gunner writes "bunker buster" or the like on a round, then thats between the gunner and the military. If the company that makes the round, and is paid by the US taxpayer, writes "Muslim Mawler" on the round...now I got a problem.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 108
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Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/23/2010 6:47:59 PM
What I am seeing are another set of two sides.

There are those who refuse to differentiate between the response to extremists from varying religious stripes...we just had one of our own fly a plane into a IRS office building.
These folks are those who focus on Islam, try to paint the entirety of Islam into some sort of "enemies" box and fail to see the difference between perception in the wider world, and some sort of condescension among our much needed and avowed "enemies" from the extremists that we create and nurture.

Then there is the rest of the world, who knows that loonies on both sides play on, and against one another to sate their manly desires for someone to hate and rail against. No one has the franchise on friggin loonies and the US is quite competitive in those Olympic games.
Blatant Jihadists/Crusaders drag civilization down.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 109
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Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/24/2010 6:21:37 AM
The Jesus rifles were not an isolated incident. The Crusaders deny this is happening when outside of their circles. Denial has nothing to do with what is happening on the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVGmbzDLq5c&feature=player_embedded
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2008/05/28/38820/iraqis-claim-marines-are-pushing.html
Muslim views on the subject. Perception is important.
http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/press-releases/mmn_breeding.html
The following one has several supportive links at the bottom of the piece.
http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/christian_extremists_within_the_us_military_myth_or_reality/
snip..
A recently released video-tape “Inside Story” by Al-Jazeera puts to rest all doubts about whether or not the U.S. military encourages proselytism in war-devastated countries (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntZz37IZ1uk&feature=channel). In that, video-taped a year ago, correspondent James Bays shows the U.S. service members in Bagram Base discussing proselytizing in Afghanistan with Lieutenant-Colonel Hensley, the top military chaplain in Afghanistan. They discussed about “hunting people for Jesus.” Lt. Col. Hensley is heard saying that the US soldiers in Afghanistan have a mission basically to carry out the work of God. And then he declares that the U.S. military is now the “new Israel.” A closer look also revealed that Hensley was wearing a T-shirt showing his affiliation with a fundamentalist group called Chapel NeXt, and at the background there was also a Christian cross inscribed over a map of Afghanistan.

These are very disturbing images about the U.S. military. It shows that the American military, in essence, has become the recruiting and breeding ground for the soldiers for Christ. A significant number are religious zealots who join the military simply to kill and die for the Christ. Others are indoctrinated by fundamentalist military chaplains. The latter are assiduously changing the secular military to a Christian chauvinist fighting force. And this change did not happen overnight.

According to Jeff Sharlet, contributing editor for Harper’s Magazine and author of The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power, from the time of President Reagan Chaplain Corps in the U.S. military has become predominantly Christian fundamentalist, comprising of about 80 percent fundamentalist chaplains today. These Christian chaplains are reshaping American soldiers’ mindset – the way they perceive their military duty and the way they fight. These extremist Christians within the U.S. Armed Forces are obviously behaving like “government paid missionaries” crossing the line between church and state.” And yet, the Pentagon has not reprimanded such officers.

We also learn that these Christian evangelist chaplains are enticing violence by brain-washing their soldiers (e.g., intoxicating their mind with religious hatred) to commit horrendous crimes, which are nothing short of terrorism and war crimes. Sharlet cites how a young Lieutenant got so charged up religiously after viewing Mel Gibson’s film “Passion of the Christ” (which was made available by the Chaplain) that he had his Bradley fighting vehicle painted with the Arabic words “Jesus killed Muhammad.” Then, he put his Arabic translator on the roof with a bullhorn, shouting in Arabic, “Jesus killed Mohammed,” and rolled out into the city of Samarra. He killed every single Iraqi who took offense at those words.

And it seems that the U.S. military rewards men responsible for committing such war crimes. Lieutenant John DeGiulio, the man who drove that Bradley, is now Captain John DeGiulio, promoted since. In his conversation with Sharlet, DeGiulio boasted that he destroyed everything he saw on one whole block, blowing up every single thing, and that he was able to do this, because “God was on his side” and because he had been spiritually armored by watching Mel Gibson’s Passion of the Christ. He was thankful to his chaplain for preparing him for that kind of “spiritual battle” on the streets of Iraq.
end snip..
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 110
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Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/25/2010 6:13:53 AM
An anecdotal experience of escaping religious scrutiny in the military does not mean that religious intolerance and proselytizing are not occuring with greater frequency.

Mikey Weinstein came to his activism from personal experience and from that of his son in the AF academy. One of the more disturbing aspects of the Jesus guns debacle is that it was approved from the top down. Weinstein maintains that the highest levels of the military, in the Pentacostalgon, are ready and poised for a theocratic coup. Most of MRFFs staff and membership are practicing Christians who are conscientious objectors to the growing military Theocracy.

http://tinyurl.com/yflzxbj
snip..
What he determined through this process was that the Academies at West Point and Annapolis were also full of Fundamentalist Evangelicals who didn’t see it as a violation of their oath to proselytize their version of Christianity on anyone who wasn’t a ‘believer’. Hundreds of interviews later, he determined that the problem of ‘God’-over-country is pervasive to the very highest ranks in all branches of America’s military, and that the majority of these officers and senior enlisted personnel are not just Fundamentalist, but subscribe to both Dominionism and Reconstructionism.

At first blush, this all sounds like loony-bin talk. Mikey’s continued research – which brought him face to face with the highest levels of America’s military leadership – provides incontrovertible proof that America is as close as it’s ever been to an outright coup, sponsored by the military and supported by a large and growing subset of American Fundamentalist Christians, who believe that it’s not only their right, but their duty, to ‘take America back’ for their God.

The problem is so pervasive in America’s military that today, 50% of the chaplaincy appointments in America’s military are held by Dominionist/Reconstructionist Christians. The group Christian Embassy has embedded itself deep in the Pentagon – so deep that Mikey calls it the “Pentecostalgon.”

Dominionism and Reconstructionism

This subset of Christianity holds its roots in the belief that the United States is a ‘Christian nation’, founded by and for Christians, and that it is the duty of every ‘good’ American Christian to create a new America which subordinates civil/secular law and the Constitution to the ‘laws of God’ – particularly, conservative Christian understanding of Biblical law.

In their worldview, the Dominionists and Reconstructionists seek a ‘reconstruction’ of American law and society in keeping with their views of conservatively-interpreted Christianity –and it’s a simple process:

- Control the education of America’s youth, and you have the future.

- Control America’s courts, and you control not only its legal processes, but its government.

- Control the military, and you control the country.

In other words – a theocracy.


“We have a fanatical ‘religiosity’; in this case it’s known as ‘fundamentalist/dominionist Christianity’, mixed in with totally misguided patriotism. Throw in a dash of actual weapons of mass destruction; throw in completely unfettered access due to the draconian specter of military command influence, and then add another swatch of total abrogation of the sacred oath to defend, protect, support and serve the Constitution of the United States – and what you have is a national security threat which is so serious in magnitude that almost no one can believe that it’s there, unless they’re complicit.”
end snip..
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 111
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Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/25/2010 7:46:08 AM
And then there is another man's experience. The big difference of our theocracy threat compared to others, is that we have the most arms, the deadliest nuclear capability and people like Palin striving for the top to play out their end times fantasies.

To: Mikey Wenstein and MRFF:

I am a U.S. Army infantry soldier with the rank of [rank withheld]. I am married with children. I am stationed at Fort [installation name withheld]. I have been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan multiple times. I have been awarded medals for direct combat engagement as well as for injuries and wounds received in hand-to-hand combat.

I am a Muslim American. My family converted when I was very young. I am caucasian and have a last name that does not sound ethnic. Therefore, few of my fellow soldiers know that I am a Muslim. My wife comes from a Christian tradition but rarely practices or attends church. I have witnessed terrible religious persecution in the my [number withheld] years in the Army. Most of it comes from "angry" conservative Christians in my unit chains of command and occasionally from my fellow infantry soldiers.

I am very familiar with the Trijicon ACOG gunsights and have often had them as part of my personal weapons; both my M-4 and my M-16. In my first 2 deployments I saw and experienced no incidents regarding the New Testament bible quotes that are written on the metal casing of the gun sights. Many soldiers know of them and are very confused as to why they are there and what it is supposed to mean. Everyone is worried that if they were captured in combat that the enemy would use the bible quotes against them in captivity or some other form of propaganda.

As an American soldier I am ashamed that those bible quotes are on our primary weapons. As a Muslim American I am horrified. As one who swore his oath to the Constitution, I am driven to fight this Christian insanity but I know if I try to do so in a visible way that I will suffer at the hands of my military superiors. I am of low enlisted rank and can be crushed easily. I am prepared to suffer, but I am not prepared for my wife and children to suffer. So I have reached out to MRFF because there is nowhere else safe to go to try to fight this thing of disgrace.

There are many other soldiers who feel as I do. Many are Protestant and Catholic and they fear reprisal just as much as I do for trying to stand up to the Christian bullies in uniform who outrank us. But if you try to fight back, you are not "asking" for trouble, YOU ARE IN TROUBLE from the start. And if you are a Muslim American, the hatred is always just below the surface and ready to explode at a moment's notice. After the Fort Hood shootings, it was so bad, even for a low profile Muslim like me, that I had to ask MRFF for help.

Nothing in my first 2 deployments prepared me for what happened with the Trijicon ACOG gun sights during my 3rd deployment to Afghanistan. I will never forget the day it occurred. It was morning and there was a mandatory formation of several companies. A very senior NCO was yelling at us which is not that unusual. He asked a private what it was that he (the private) was holding in his hand and the private said it was his "weapon" several times to which the senior NCO replied "and what ELSE is it"?

FInally, the senior NCO said that the private's rifle was also something else; that because of the biblical quote on the ACOG gunsight it had been "spiritually transformed into the Fire Arm of Jesus Christ" and that we would be expected to kill every "haji" we could find with it. He said that if we were to run out of ammo, then the rifle would become the "spiritually transformed club of Jesus Christ" and that we should "bust open the head of every haji we find with it.'"He said that Uncle Sam had seen fit not to give us a "**** 'Jewzzi' (combination of the word 'Jew' and Israeli made weapon 'Uzi') but the "fire arm of Jesus Christ" and made specific mention of the biblical quotes on our gun sights.

He said that the enemy no doubt had quotes from the Koran on their guns but that "our Lord is bigger than theirs because theirs is a fraud and an idol". As a Muslim and an American soldier I was fit to be tied but I kept it in. There were many Afghans, both civilian and military, on base within earshot of what was being yelled at us and I can only wonder in shock what they must have thought.

This senior NCO was apparently also the head person of a conservative, crazy Christian group called the "Christian Military Fellowship" and made a big deal about the importance of joining to everyone. He told us all that we MUST read a book called "Under Orders" in order to make it through this combat deployment and said he had many copies for everyone. Some of my friends went and got their copies. I refused.

Finally, this senior NCO ended his yelling by warning us that if we did not "get right with Jesus" then our rifles would not provide spiritual strength despite the bible quotes on our ACOG gunsights and that we would be considered "spiritual cripples" to our fellow units and soldiers. He didn't say it in so many words, but the message was clear; if anything bad happened in a combat situation, it would be the fault of anyone who had not accepted Jesus Chris in the "right way".

I have never felt so ashamed and scared in my life. I have never hated myself so much for not speaking out. So I thought of my wife and children and endured. Every time I looked at my rifle with that Trijicon ACOG gunsight/scope with the biblical quote from the book of John (8:12), it would make me sick. If I had tried to protest, it would have made me dead. And if I'm dead I'm of no use to my wife and children.

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7663
Response to the ensuing hatemail..

As the Director of Veterans Affairs for the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (I am a volunteer - I receive NO pay) I have received and read countless e-mails from Fundamentalist Dominionist Christian bigots who spew vitriol and hatred out of one side of their mouths and accuse the MRFF and its activists of discriminating against Christians out of the other. Of course they are just projecting. Approximately 97% of the MRFF’s clients are Christians – Christians who are suffering discrimination at the hands of other Christians who consider them “not Christian enough.” As a result of this discrimination by Christians against Christians within the military and Dept. of Veterans Affairs I have represented far more Christians than all others combined. As an example, recently I represented two Catholic veterans of multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan who had been denied access to PTSD therapy groups at a V.A. facility because they weren't considered to be "born again". Those overseeing and conducting the therapy groups were only willing to include “born again” Christians in their groups. Tell me: is that acceptable to you?

In point of fact the Military Religious Freedom Foundation doesn't discriminate against anyone; we represent individuals of all faiths (as well as those who espouse no faith) who have and are experiencing discrimination as a result of their own faith (or non-faith). If one were privy to the day to day efforts of the foundation one would realize that we wouldn't miss a beat in rising to the defense of even a Fundamentalist Dominionist Christian if he/she were suffering discrimination based on his/her faith at the hands of a superior officer, NCO or V.A. health care provider. Our objective is to uphold the Constitution of the United States and put a stop to agents of the State using their positions of power to impose their religious beliefs on others. Unfortunately it is the Fundamentalist Dominionist Christian hoards who not only seek to overthrow the U.S. Constitution and impose a theocracy based on their narrow religious beliefs, but are unwilling to wait for that to happen. They are hard at work right now promoting their own within the Department of Defense and Department of Veterans Affairs and are the overwhelming scourge that discriminates against those who don't share their beliefs. Not a day goes by when The Foundation doesn't hear from an assortment of servicemen/women and veterans who are suffering as a result of religious discrimination at the hands of Fundamentalist Dominionist Christians in positions of power.

One must realize that these Fundamentalist, Dominionist Christian radicals will not back down. They will not stop seeking to impose their beliefs on others. They will not apologize and they will not moderate themselves – they consider moderation to be the religious equivalent of treason. And, in fact, they are famous for flooding the media with complaints that “the Christian faith is under attack in America” every time an individual or group stands up to their efforts to impose their beliefs on others. It’s time for the American public to wake up and see that it is the rest of us who are being attacked by these crusaders. Every time you see or hear the right wing, Fundamentalist Dominionist Christians screaming bloody murder, claiming that Christianity is once again under attack in America, look more closely, you will see that they are the ones attacking the rest of us and somebody or some group has just had the courage to stand up to them. They want to frighten us into sitting down and shutting up. We need to be courageous and refuse to sit down and shut up…and then maybe others will draw courage from us and join us in our efforts to rebuild and fortify the wall of separation between Church and State in America. The future of our Republic depends on it. These bigots want a theocracy. I don’t know about you, but I won’t settle for anything less than democracy!
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 112
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/25/2010 12:28:59 PM

I totally agree ,
What do you say we start , with "Government" not "telling" Religious institutions who they can or can't , should or shouldn't , marry ?
Or is that whole "Seperation of church and state" thing , just a one way door ?


Do you have a bona fide source on that issue?

All I have read about it tells me that it is one of those bull sh.t issues of the religious, conservative right-wingers.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 113
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/25/2010 12:54:27 PM
Heck, I can give you a reference right now - the government says that Ellen de Generis and Partia De Rossi can't be married in a church. Clearly the government needs to get out of the way of two adults who wish to be married, and the clergy who wishes to officiate.

Now if GR is referring to wishing to marry someone or something other than an adult human - well, that is an appropriate restriction.

Edit: Hell. Hell, hell, hell hell, hell. I got sucked into talking off topic, and I really don't have anything to say about the real topic since my last post. So I can't save this with editing.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 114
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History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/25/2010 4:42:06 PM
Don't get sucked into the GR obfuscation. It will inevitably lead back to Clinton's blowjob as the beginning of the end of everything.

Friends of mine from Veterans For Peace, VVAW, IVAW, and the MRFF have cred compared to a kiddie who is too special to serve because his daddy and grand daddy had to.

The MRFF has many more testimonials on their website as do the Winter Soldiers of IVAW. Mikey Weinstein is also a vet, served in the Reagan Administration, has strolled the highest corridors of the Pentagoons, and has more cred than the annecdotal denialists and chickenhawks.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 115
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History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/26/2010 1:49:33 AM
It was inevitable, given the thread title, that the persecution pity card would be played. As madfiddler clearly pointed out, there is vast divide between Christian cults. The dominionist theocrats are targeting the 96% of MRFFs membership who are Christians themselves, as not being Christian enough. It is the Dominionists who are driving the Crusades, pushing democracy out of the US, and would love to put their Palin in control of our nuclear arsenal to bring on the end times fantasy of theirs. If they were not so focused on destroying the world, they would be laughable. If they were not endangering their fellow troops and innocent civilians by their blatant Crusades, Jesus Guns and proselytizing, they could be shrugged off. You can pretty much be assured that Jesus thinks they are azzholes and forgot to read the Beatitudes.

Hard to tell if they are this nucking futs or being satirical at times.
http://protoplasm.wordpress.com/page/2/
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/10/31/115724/94
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 116
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/26/2010 11:22:37 AM

This thread has become an old fashioned revival meeting of antichristians.


Absolutely ridiculous!

I am a christian, and I am not in favor of allowing any fanatical, religious zealots to carry on their fantasies, especially when they are funded by the taxpayers money.

Trigicom and their accomplices within the military perhaps thought that they could get away with their scheme; however, their game was exposed and it was revealed that it was against the military rules. Period!

I still am in favor of a full fledge investigation!
 Singleinlewistonidaho
Joined: 8/25/2009
Msg: 117
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/26/2010 12:51:34 PM
Yes the company was puting a biblical reference on the scopes. And they have agreed to end the practice. So in 50 years those scopes marked as such will have a huge collector value :)

I think the War is on many levels a continuation of the Crusades and a culture clash. The Government wants to deny it but some individuals have their own agendas. The Guy who owned blackwater was a Christian who sees this as a holy war and from what I hear that is why his outfit acted so outragious.

Mike
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 118
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/27/2010 12:51:30 PM

It was only a personal attack if your talkin out your azz and don't know any better. Kinda sensitive arn'd ya???


Not sensitive at all! Just pointing out your irrational bullying behavior. If you don't know who you are addressing it is best just to address the posts.

Besides the rantings about having had combat experience, do you think that you can find some time to answer the questions asked from you?


I do admit reading all this junk is entertaining.


Welcome to the club! It is very interesting when people share their opinions and information in an honest manner. We even learn from each other sometimes. But we must start trying to address the questions so the people can assess if you are just a troll or a serious poster trying to contribute to the the discussion of the issue.

Give it a try, and answer the questions!
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 119
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History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/28/2010 12:21:39 AM
Some people truly find their humanity in times of war, and others lose it. Some find religion and others find they need a new one that won't send them to hell in the aftermath. War and it's life-long aftermath is a very personal thing, for good or bad, changing everyone in it's wake, family and friends included.

Those who use terms like "ragheads" have obviously lost their humanity because of war. McCain still uses the term "gook" to describe the Vietnamese who called him "Songbird" for his compliance in giving up the goods while in captivity.

The lesson that most conveniently forget from Vietnam, is that no matter how much superior firepower an empire has at it's disposal, resilient and motivated people can and will prevail with unconventional means and any means at their disposal. The only way to "get the job done right" in such situations like Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, would be to unleash the Nukes and commit the world's worst genocides ever. Fortunately, cooler heads prevail on that end, and we adhere, sorta, torture excluded, to the Geneva Conventions and other agreements that civilized nations came up with to prevent the most barbaric behavior possible.

The Vietnamese, Iraqis and Afghans, are doing exactly what Americans or any invaded countries' citizens would do against overwhelming firepower thrust into their lives. Hell yes, we would make IEDs, fight from the woods and hoods, and do whatever would be necessary to protect our own and fight off the aggressors. To think that the Iraqis and Afghans stuck in our oil wars are somehow different than we are denies their basic humanity in defending themselves. To dismiss the obvious affront to Muslims in the world by our arrogant Koran shooting, Mosque bombing, Jesus Guns, Raghead hating rants, and other dumbazz counterproductive tactics while occupying their nations is just feeding the resentment, fueling the resistance, and killing our own with our stupidity.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 120
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History
Jesus Rifles in use in Iraq and Afghanistan...
Posted: 2/28/2010 8:59:59 AM
^^^Collaborators in wars and occupied nations have never fared well. Even the perception of collaboration in wars has led to such violence as we are seeing in the occupied nations of today. You don't hear moderate, friendly Muslims condemn such behavior, because you refuse to hear it or bother to look for it.
http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx
http://baheyeldin.com/terrorism/do-muslims-ever-condemn-terrorist-attacks.html
http://www.squidoo.com/Muslimattitudestowardsterrorism

What we are seeing in Iraq and Afghanistan is the "eye for an eye", the only permissible form of violence being self-defense. It would not be necessary to hand out rice, generators or soccer balls, if we had not invaded and destroyed those nations. It is because we are occupiers that the civil wars rage and innocents and perceived collaborators get caught in the middle. To most of the Iraqis and Afghans, we areevery bit the terrorists as the extremists in their midst are. How many days have gone by where we did not kill innocent civilians in our occupations?
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