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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > How could oceans have been where deserts now are?      Home login  
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 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 11
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How could oceans have been where deserts now are?Page 2 of 2    (1, 2)
Teddymunch..
You actually had two questions built into your OP. Many good answers were given on plate movement and oscillation, but the desert question has ignored the human causes of deserts. I live on an old seabed, 1800 feet asl and it is a moderately thriving mixed mesophytic forest, similar to the one in central China. It is an island of biodiversity in the eastern US as most of it's type has all but disappeared over most of the region due to the activities of man.

We had our dust bowl in the midwest, where the poor farming practices combined with weather to create a man made disaster of epic proportions. A large percentage of today's desertification is the result of over-population and attendant deforestation and poor agricultural practices, over-grazing included. History is littered with civilizations that turned their gardens of eden into deserts that could no longer support human life. The added factor of climate changes will only worsen this situation.

This island of biodiversity that I live in is threatened by pressures to clear cut for fuel and "clean energy", by introduced invasive pestilence, and by prolonged drought cycles and severe temperature events. Most tree species are incapable of climbing upward or northward fast enough to survive warming and drought trends. Every step of ecosystem simplification is one step closer to desertification.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/224597.stm
"The organisers of the conference estimate that the spread of barren land has an impact on 250 million people, and could eventually threaten a billion people.

In North America, 74% of the dryland is already "seriously or moderately" affected by desertification.

Africa is a close second at risk, with 73% of the dryland damaged.

In the immediate sub-Saharan Sahel region, experts put the death rate from the related impact on living conditions at 200,000 people per year.

Desertification has also hit Asian and Pacific nations, as well as Europe, notably Italy and Spain.

Developed countries as a whole - and more favoured areas of developing countries - are also being affected indirectly as people migrate to them after being unable to live off their degraded land. "
 bobbi21
Joined: 8/16/2008
Msg: 12
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/25/2010 6:42:05 PM
Dreams:

We're talking about locations of oceans. No matter what the change in temperature, ocean flow, jet streams etc you can not change the fact that water flows downhill. If you change the tilt of the earth, the lowest portions of the earth will remain the lowest portions and water will always flow toward them. Therefore the oceans will stay oceans and the land will stay land.

All the stuff you mentioned could melt more ice caps raising sea levels or even cause most of the planet to freeze but if we assume there is still liquid water on earth, it will still flow down and still make the same oceans. No amount of current can defy gravity.
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 13
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/25/2010 7:36:06 PM

We're talking about locations of oceans. No matter what the change in temperature, ocean flow, jet streams etc you can not change the fact that water flows downhill. If you change the tilt of the earth, the lowest portions of the earth will remain the lowest portions and water will always flow toward them. Therefore the oceans will stay oceans and the land will stay land.


So magma flows are bound to the same flow patterns as water?

I thought that the crust FLOATED ontop of the magma flows so that is the magma flows altered their positions then the crust floating on top would have no choice but to float wherever the magma decided them to be.

So if the earth tilted at a different angle the magma would remain in its current positions? Or do you think the magma flow might alter it's course and as such some land mass may be lowered while others raised up depending on where that magma flowed to and from?

Might not happen over millions of years though.. The land mass might be like a couple boats riding on waves and crashing together THEN setling at rest.

I mean as long as we are just pulling things out of thin air it could be this planet is just one big foundry in its core and lava and magma is just the slag scraped off as it rotates and discarded to keep the core pure.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 14
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/25/2010 8:12:51 PM

Maybe the planet was not always tilted at its current angle.


There is no evidence that this is the case. It's essentially moot.


Interesting question indeed. It would likely pose even more questions if found to be the result though like what caused the tilt to change. Maybe the moon used to be further away from the earth.


The moon is and, by necessity, always has been receding from us. Dynamicists have taken Earth and the moon through millions of orbits in their computers and all indications are that Earth never strays far from its 23-degree tilt, due to the stabilization of the moon.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 15
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/25/2010 9:03:33 PM
Actually, we "wannabe backyard astronomers" are all behind the plot! And it was surprisingly easy. Thank goodness for that mass/spacetime inhibitor we got from the Trolecks of Alpha Indii 3.

Here in the north, we just wanted access to more southerly skies! Is that so wrong?
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 16
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/26/2010 8:25:08 AM
ezekiel 21:26 ezekiel 22:23 ezekiel 24

But of course to many within these forums its just an old book containing no wisdom or guidance right?
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 17
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/26/2010 8:14:39 PM
Oh, jeez, not Growing Earth again! *groan!*
 Teddymunch
Joined: 1/16/2010
Msg: 18
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/26/2010 8:15:20 PM

ezekiel 21:26 ezekiel 22:23 ezekiel 24


I would only have read it if you posted it. How many people you figure took the time to research it? So what, you are too lazy to post it but I shouldn't be so lazy as to research it?


But of course to many within these forums its just an old book containing no wisdom or guidance right?


I find the book to have plenty of wisdom and guidance but, to me, it is still just a book. And a book that was written at a time that didn't have all of scientific knowledge we have today.

It is a pretty Good book though; goodness abound.
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 19
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/26/2010 9:21:37 PM

I would only have read it if you posted it. How many people you figure took the time to research it? So what, you are too lazy to post it but I shouldn't be so lazy as to research it?


But that is what you are expected to do. If I were to post it or anyone for that matter what is to say that it was not altered to suit their own needs? But if you go grab your own book then you can see it without a posters twist added. Sorry I spent some time on the religion forums posting and some of the people would do that all the time knowing darn well that they people that would be reading it would never go look for themselves.


I guess I'm not too good at the bibical interpretation. Or maybe my mind just doesn't point in the right direction. However, I was caught by the following passage when I read too much of Ezekiel (21: 30)...

Return it to its sheath In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin..... I wonder how we should interpret that one, dreams?


That isn't even in a translation i looked at... Which kinda is interesting... after checking it seems those passigages were translated by some in from the interesting all the way to the bazzar on one of the translations.

In my book those passages talk about the land sinking while other lands are raised up...with rocks the color of blood.........lol back then it was a refrence for the color red
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 20
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/26/2010 10:16:11 PM
(for my friend; he knows I cared enough)

If your going to use scripture to make a point the least you can do is understand what you are using and provide that information for fellow thread posters.

Eze~21:26 (from the King James version of the bible; it is the oldest English translation and therefore considered the most accurate) thus sayeth the Lord God, remove the diadem, and take off thy crown:this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.

Eze~22:23-4 and the word of the Lord came to me saying, Son of man say unto her thou art the land that is not cleansed nor rained upon in the days of indignation.

What all that has to do with what you are talking about I have no idea. It was prophecy that has been fufilled.
 Teddymunch
Joined: 1/16/2010
Msg: 21
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/26/2010 10:42:42 PM
Double post.
 Teddymunch
Joined: 1/16/2010
Msg: 22
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/26/2010 10:46:25 PM

But that is what you are expected to do. If I were to post it or anyone for that matter what is to say that it was not altered to suit their own needs?


Whatever book you have read it from as been altered so many times from the original already that I fail to see what the difference would be.


Besides, just because it came from the Bible doesn't make it ultimate truth to me. Surely someone to whom it does will go check in the book just to make sure.



Eze~21:26 (from the King James version of the bible; it is the oldest English translation and therefore considered the most accurate) thus sayeth the Lord God, remove the diadem, and take off thy crown:this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.

Eze~22:23-4 and the word of the Lord came to me saying, Son of man say unto her thou art the land that is not cleansed nor rained upon in the days of indignation.


21:26 seems to be talking about people in the eye of society as per perhaps power or money.

I hope that what you read was written differently because, if it wasn't and you saw that as having anything to do with the OP, you have pretty poor comprehension skills.
 bobbi21
Joined: 8/16/2008
Msg: 23
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/27/2010 11:34:36 AM
Just a note

King James is NOT considered the most accurate by anyone besides possibly housewives and those who like Shakespearean language. Its not even close to the oldest. There's the Wycliff bible, the Gutenberg bible, The greek latin parallel new testament by erasmus, etc etc etc

Old means nothing. The newer texts are actually more accurate translations because 1) we were able to find a few more source material in the original greek that is much closer to when it was first written. 2) we have a better understanding of the greek language and the historical context of the time and can therefore more accurately understand what they were trying to say.

The most accurate and literal translation today is the New American Standard I believe.


As for the guy talking about magma flows to me..forgot his name. Movement of the plates always take millions of years.... Assuming anything else makes no sense... Might as well say shifting the angle of the earth will make the earth spin 1000000x faster on it's axis. That's how fast the magma has to be flowing compared to now for it have any immediate changes how the plates are positioned. Plates move incredibly slow, theres no reason to believe they'd move faster by a change in axis. (Seeing as the magma has little to do with heat from the sun, axis change will probably not even effect it much. The earth is floating in space all to itself. Gravity from the sun keeps it in orbit but wouldn't effect 1 part of the earth more than the other. The moon may have some effect but it can barely move water much less solid rock. Therefore a shift in axis probably won't even effect magma flows much cus that all has to do with stuff inside the earth that couldn't care less what position it's in in space.)
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 24
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How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/27/2010 12:35:49 PM
The bible has nothing to do with desertification, plate movements, axis shift, and other scientific issues surrounding the OP. After all, in that book, the world is only 6000 years old. Please try to stay on topic.
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 25
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/30/2010 3:56:03 PM
I was responding to an e-mail sent to me by a friend and therefore posted what I was taught to be correct in Christian cirles. I did not mean to offend you. I merely stated the King James was the oldest ENGLISH translation and considered to be the most accurate in ENGLISH. I forgot that part due to being an AIR HEAD> I will apologise for that but not being disabled JERK. I have my moments, and my opinions.
 bobbi21
Joined: 8/16/2008
Msg: 26
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/30/2010 11:43:59 PM
Were you responding to me?

I was just stating the king james isn't the oldest english translation and no biblical scholar in the world considers it the most accurate and i'd tend to agree with them. I wasn't offended.. not sure what the rest of your post was about..
 Teddymunch
Joined: 1/16/2010
Msg: 27
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/31/2010 8:14:48 AM

Teddy, I am almost afraid to tell you that there used to only be one piece of land on earth. One giant continent. Therefore, only one vast ocean surrounding it.


That's about the only thing I knew of the subject. I couldn't quite visualize the answer from just that but the good people of pof have made the vision quite clear in my mind on this thread.
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 28
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How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 1/31/2010 12:30:01 PM

When land moves up
Water moves down


It's not just the earth moving. Glaciers have formed and melted. The temperature of the earth has changed over millions of years.

How do they know some areas that are now desert were once oceans? Fossil evidence.

Here's one link that describes the earth's climate during the age of the dinosaurs.

http://theclimateblog.livejournal.com/4301.html

As for a more complete explanation, I'd suggest going to your local public library and asking the librarian to help you find a book about this. A friend once suggested finding books geared at 6th graders. Seriously. He pointed out that at that age level, they will present the basic elements without having to read a lengthy scientific text. He had a good point. Tell the librarian you're looking for something like that.
 hyoid
Joined: 5/12/2009
Msg: 29
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 2/3/2010 9:31:09 AM
As you can see from the accompaning link, North Americans are largely dependent on high temperatures to keep their head above water.

http://www.physorg.com/news101952315.html

Posted from the stable interior craton, where we're still rocketing upward in isostatic rebound from the last glacial epoch.
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 30
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How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 2/11/2010 7:53:00 AM
Regarding the presence of fossils on Mt. Everest:

When I first saw the Himalayas from the air, I was impressed at how they really did look as if the Indian subcontinent had crashed into the Asian land mass and pushed the mountains up. When you see the mountains up close, you can see the various strata on an angle. What scientists tell us about the formation of the Himalayas is very believable when you see them.

The following paragraph is from a longer article on Mr. Everest and the Himalayas:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=3499


"Everest is the tallest of many extraordinarily high peaks in the Himalayas, including neighboring Lhotse (27,890 feet, 8516 m) and Nuptse (25,790 feet, 7885 m). The mountain range was formed when a large land mass broke off from Africa roughly 200 million years ago and was carried by plate tectonics across what is now the Indian Ocean. When this land mass came close to Asia, it started to push up the land ahead of it, forming a large shallow ocean with rich ocean life. The bones and shells of the plants and animals in this shallow ocean formed limestone and left fossils. As the land mass continued to plow north and collide with Asia, the ocean was slowly raised up and drained, eventually being lifted up to form the Himalayan Mountains. The land mass, which is still moving north and forcing the land ahead of it upwards, is known as the Indian subcontinent. The presence of limestone and ocean marine fossils at the top of these mountains is one of the key pieces of evidence cited that advanced the idea of plate tectonics (large chunks of the Earth’s surface moving over molten rock in the Earth’s core) when it was first proposed as a theory in 1915."
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 31
How could oceans have been where deserts now are?
Posted: 3/2/2010 11:16:01 AM

The tilt wouldn't make much difference, apart from the equatorial bulge which affects land as well as water.


Looks like the scientists will now get their wish and it no longer be speculation. Guess they can now measure what changes take place to be able to see if in fact an axis shift will effect the various weather systems around the globe.

They might even be able to monitor the moons position to see if this shift had any affect on its orbit as well
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