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 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 450
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?Page 10 of 44    (4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44)
I'm not so big on Milton Freeman either, but in any case isn't Arnie a Republican ('cuz he sure as hell isn't a Democrat)?! Or is he just another one of those GOP "mistakes", like Dubya...?
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 451
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/1/2010 9:30:28 AM

the "Constitutional" inviolability of "Private Property" (the 5th Amendment)


I see you put quotation marks around the word "constitutional." Is that to imply that the Fifth Amendment does *not* strongly protect private property rights? If so, that's a very interesting view--can you please tell me more?

I'm guessing someone who obviously cares as much about those "constitutional" rights as you do must also know a great deal about them. Why don't you explain to us all of us how the Constitution does or doesn't protect them?

It's hard to believe you'd use that paragraph of pop jargon--complete with your hackneyed attempts at wit--to gull us into thinking you've really spent years reasoning through all those complex, difficult questions. It could have come straight out of any one of the hundreds of communist rants I used to hear on campus. Your game may work on people you hang out with who don't understand or respect the Constitution any more than you do. But you may find it's not quite enough here.

I'll tell you once more--I have no respect for anyone who'd call a guy he doesn't even know gay from the safety of his computer. The fact the guy you said it about, to his credit, didn't even dignify it with a response doesn't make it any less disgusting. You'd better be damn good friends with someone to joke about a thing like that.

So, any time you want to put on the gloves and climb into the ring with me about constitutional law, come right ahead. I'd love to make an even bigger fool of you to everyone here than you've already done on your own. But if you want to stay on your feet and conscious, you'd better bring a lot more than you've shown so far.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 455
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/1/2010 11:35:31 AM
Three of my favorite people in the world are Friedman, Sowell and Ron Paul.

Dunno about any "race baiting", since I was replying re: "the war of northern aggression" (aka The Civil War), which was over the issue of Slavery (and slaves were black... duh!)

Not so big on Friedman for many of the same reasons I've mentioned previous, and Ron Paul is just too "out there" for me (and really all over the place on his positions anyway).

But Sowell's an interesting character, and though I think he mostly just "carries water" for the Right, once in awhile he'll come out with something that catches my attention. Like his book, "Black Rednecks and White liberals", where he convincingly argues that black ghetto culture is descended from southern rednecks!
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 459
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/1/2010 1:10:46 PM
One of the most interesting I found as of late is this interview of Ayn Rand on the Donahue show. What caught me even more during the 5 part series is the questions and concerns that people had in their questions about the mega corporations, considering today's bailouts. I don't agree with everything she says but it is interesting.

Well worth the watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx-LpRSbbeA&feature=related

Ah, remember the good ole days when there was actually something thought-provoking on the Tube, instead of crap like Jerry Springer and "Reality TV"?!

But as you know, the Free Market types do like to idealize Rand, although in fact, there was always little love lost between her and the Right when she was alive, including her stated distaste for conservatives, and William F. Buckley's thinly disguised gloating obituary of her in his National Review magazine, that "Ayn Rand is dead!"

And just personally, her philosophy has always seemed like just an elaborate justification for clinical Narcissism ("it's all about ME!"), plus I was never too impressed that the Founder's own life was nuthin' to brag about either (adultery, mental illness, rampant paranoia, etc.).

More specifically, I take issue with her charge that "altruism" has been responsible for Communism, Nazism, Fascism, etc., because regardless their "motives" (which we can argue about all day), the problem was really more about their "coercion". So basically, I go with believing in whatever you want... Ayn Rand, the "Free" Market, Fundamentalism, Flying Monkeys, whatever, I don't care... just don't try to force it on anyone!
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 461
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/1/2010 1:59:01 PM
Sorry, didn't think you were forcing anything either, just that it best describes my take on these sorts of things. And you're right, whether we agreed with her or not, she had a clear "vision" she could really explain, and was always pretty straight up about defending it without getting defensive or hostile (which seems to be a lost art these days).

Also no question, anything, even with the "noblest" of motives, can be abused and turned into a grotesque parody of its original intent.... just look at religion!
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 466
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/1/2010 4:34:37 PM

which was over the issue of Slavery


It's no better than a half-truth to say the Civil War "was over the issue of slavery." Slavery was certainly a big reason the war began. But once it was under way, Lincoln's main concern was not to end slavery, and the same was true of most people in the North. He wanted to preserve the Union, any way he could.

But after a year or so, during which almost nothing had gone the Union's way on the field, Lincoln came to realize holding the country together wasn't enough any more to inspire people to keep up the fight. And if they ever gave it up as not worth the cost, the Confederacy would have won. By the summer of 1862, he'd made emancipating the slaves a new goal to rally the nation around.

But Lincoln was concerned that calling for emancipation right after the Union armies had been whipped in late August in Second Manassas could look desperate. As Secretary of State Seward warned him, it would not look like "an attempt by us to help the black race, but an appeal to the black race to help us." A few weeks later, at Sharpsburg, the Union finally did well enough to have something it could call a victory, and that cleared the way for the Emancipation Proclamation.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 467
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/1/2010 6:45:14 PM
I would agree that it wasn't simply about "slavery" on the face of it, and one of the best explanations I've heard is that another major contributing factor was the near daily "demonizing" of the South in Northern newspapers by leading writers & abolitionists, such as William Lloyd Garrison and Harriet Beecher Stowe. Of course along with the writing, there was also a lot of lurid and "sensationalist" pictures and political cartoons, all deeply impugning everything from Southern "manhood", to their very way of life.

And obviously this steady "drumbeat" took its toll on a culture that still places a premium on the values of "honor", proper "respect" and "never forgetting". Of which I am reminded whenever I infrequently visit one of my distant "kin", a retired judge in Georgia, who can tell you all about every general in the Civil War... but only as long as it's the Confederate ones!
 sd_matt
Joined: 7/9/2006
Msg: 468
What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/1/2010 9:42:02 PM
I just watched this on youtube about the Quigley Formula.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN_LYk1nD...
Part 7 is funny in how he relates the Dems and Reps to a WWE wrestling match. On a similar note you will hear Jerry Doyle (am 760) call it the "Country Club"
The parties tend to be moderate towards the middle in their actions....but how much of that is conspiracy and how much of that is getting reelected?
The video is definitely an interesting watch...I don't agree with all of it but I definitely don't disagree with all of it either.
If you have a partisan mentality you had best not watch this video with an open mind....well as if you ever would...he he. Ignorance is bliss.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 469
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/2/2010 5:14:33 AM
I like the WWE analogy, and tend to agree about the "Country Club" part. Although there's still lotsa different "Clubs", depending on your background and "connections". But regardless whether you're a Dem or Republican, are you suggesting the country would have looked no different with Gore instead of Dubya, or even with McCain & Palin (shudder...)?!
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 471
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/2/2010 9:24:46 AM
The Dems and Repubs are the flip side of the same coin.


Maybe, but try telling that to the families of the 4,700 (and counting) American soldiers who've died in Iraq, thanks to the "Decider"....
 sd_matt
Joined: 7/9/2006
Msg: 473
What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/2/2010 11:08:25 AM
Even before reading fz's post Afghansistan has been sounding more and more like Vietnam :(
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 475
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/2/2010 12:37:17 PM
Maybe you didn't get the memo, but it ain't just liberals anymore who are complaining about Iraq and Afghanistan. Although Afghanistan's the proverbial rock and a hard place, where if we leave, then the Taliban just steps back in and takes over like they did when the Russians left. Not to mention you've got Pakistan always playing both ends against the middle, even as it totters on the edge of becoming another radical Islam state... with nukes! "Police" actions ain't ever pretty or glamorous (or cheap), but what's the alternative?
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 476
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/2/2010 4:09:09 PM
^^^^^^Or at least the believable threat of it. One other way to put a lot of pressure on Pakistan might be to sell India a few of our older attack subs. I think Pakistan's geography and neighbors make it very vulnerable to a blockade.

Just having a couple Indian subs patrol near the shipping lanes to and from Karachi, where they could impose a blockade at any time, would get Pakistan's attention in a big way. And yet since it wouldn't be visible and openly aggressive, there's very little Pakistan could do about it. The same would apply if the U.S. did this with a couple of its own subs.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 477
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/2/2010 5:11:09 PM
Oh no, not the tired old complaints about if only Truman hadn't fired MacArthur. And this is why we have a civilian for Commander in Chief, unlike some banana republics I can think of (although a lot of conservatives are trying to head us that way)!
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 478
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/2/2010 11:27:00 PM
The count is about 5,000 so far after NINE years. We lost that many in the D day invasion alone.


Probably four or five thousand men were killed just between dawn and dusk outside Sharpsburg, Maryland, on September 17, 1862,--the bloodiest day in American history. Farmers kept finding corpses in their barns and haystacks for weeks afterwards. There were about 24,000 casualties total that day--most of them in an area about one thousand yards on a side. It's still the

The fighting broke out about 5 A.M.; and by 10 A.M., 8,000 men had already gone down. In what's now called just the "West Wood," a fairly open belt of trees a couple hundred yards wide and about five hundred yards long, about 2,200 men--mostly Union--fell dead or wounded in less than a half-hour's fighting.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 479
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/2/2010 11:39:54 PM

The commander in chief is in control of the military. However, they need the wisdom to acknowledge that men who spent a lifetime studing and running wars know a whole lot more about it than they do.

In the military, as in civilian life, no one is "indispensible", so that obviously challenging your boss is always seriously "unwise", as MacArthur and more recently McChrystal needed to be reminded. And if they don't even have enough "wisdom" to know when to respect the chain of command (or even when to "pick their battles"), then it's not only about insubordination, it demonstrates they have poor judgment.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 481
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/3/2010 8:28:48 AM
Oh yeah, "Retirement by Getting Canned".... that definitely sounds like a clever 'strategy' for outwitting those devious "Libs"!
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 483
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/3/2010 10:40:56 AM
And all brought to you by....

“I am pleased to announce that I have just approved
the National Intelligence Sharing Plan, a direct result
of recommendations made at the IACP Summit held
in March of 2002. With the Plan formally in place, we
can build on the communication, coordination, and
cooperation that are winning the fight against crime
and the war against terror.”
John Ashcroft
(Former) U.S. Attorney General

“We must create new ways to share information and
intelligence both vertically, between governments, and
horizontally, across agencies and jurisdictions...efforts
with the Global Intelligence Working Group to create a
National Criminal Intelligence Sharing Plan.”
Tom Ridge
(Former) Secretary, U.S. Department of
Homeland Security
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 484
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/3/2010 12:17:35 PM
Not extending the Bush cuts, are raising taxes. The so called 700 Billion, is not money the Government will lose, it is 700 Billion dollars that they will not be able to steal in the next 10 years.

Speaking of "ideology", I'll have to remember that one when it comes time to pay my property taxes.... that "withholding" it is just preventing the Government from "stealing" (and I'll let someone else make up the "difference")!

BTW, I was once a Federal Civil Servant myself, so I have no illusions re: "guvmint efficiency" (surely an oxymoron if there ever was one). But I have even less confidence in institutions whose only motive is "profit".
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 486
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/3/2010 1:15:21 PM
Yeah, actually I figured when I mentioned that, that you couldn't resist the urge to show your "man love" again!

Because new jobs are seldom created in Civil Service, and the rest are hanging onto theirs for dear life (and waiting for retirement), it often tends to be a sort of "shark pit", with everyone jealously guarding their "meal" (aka "turf"). So it's not hard to imagine why little "progress" or "efficiency" happens, because that would entail some sort of cooperation ("change") among the "sharks"!

Being of the liberal, free-wheeling (commercial) artist & sci-illustrator persuasion, naturally all this didn't fly so well with me, and I left (NOAA) after about 5 years. Although the "private" sector, as we all know, is not without its own set of "issues" re: "change"....
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 487
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/3/2010 8:54:40 PM

Tell me, BTW, what did you do, in your own way, to actually increase that "guvmint efficiency"?

As I've already mentioned, I tried but eventually left when it became apparent the "culture" was simply too resistant to "change" (adapting to newer & more efficient technologies, methods, etc.), and arguably, resistance to change also characterizes conservative thought as well. But I would be the first to admit that "efficiency" alone is not an admirable goal (just look at Nazi Germany's "Final Solution", which was nothing if not "efficient").

BTW, what have you done, in your own way, to decrease "greed" in the private sector?
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 488
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/3/2010 11:29:36 PM

BTW, what have you done, in your own way, to decrease "greed" in the private sector?


There's no good reason for anyone to *want* less of what you call "greed" in capitalism. Self-interested gain has always been the mainspring of capitalist economies--and the more of it there is, the better off we all are. The inventions which have advanced mankind the most have come about because someone had a better idea and was able to reap the benefits of what he created.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 490
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/4/2010 5:05:24 PM
Well, I actually ended up retiring from a large "greedy" corporation. Although they also supported local charities, and took care of their employees reasonably well, so initially I never really thought of them as a greedy business. That is until about the 80- 90's, when suddenly everything became only about supporting the "bottom line", along with constantly trying to drive the quarterly stock values up (which itself leads to "short-term thinking"). But even that was fine, 'til they ruthlessly began shipping manufacturing and even technical jobs overseas, and by then it was clearly "greedy", callously hurting employees and working families, along with diminished employee benefits and community support.

So everything in life needs to have some sort of limits, and without that, even the once desirable profit motive can turn into a soul-less greed monster, consuming everything in its path. And besides, whatever human costs that businesses manage to offload just for the sake of the bottom line, from health care & maternity leave to wages & retirement benefits, somehow always end up having to be absorbed instead by Government and the Public Sector (aka "you and me").
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 491
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/5/2010 1:31:09 PM
Then we disagree, as I'm of the "liberal" set of values that includes the notion we all share some responsibility beyond just ourselves, but also towards the community at large, and to each other individually (you know, that bit about "being my brother's keeper" and all).

And besides, if we enjoy the fruits and freedoms of this place, then all the more reason we ought to give something back in return. Businesses and corporations, both large and small, also enjoy the benefits (and protections) of operating in this country.... should they be expected to contribute any less?

BTW, another of my values is the belief that "Management" (aka "the Maker of Payroll") is no more "entitled" than the "Labor" that works for him. You can't have one without the other (although if they keeping treating Labor as "disposable", I can see how some businesses might feel that way).
 robin-hood
Joined: 12/2/2008
Msg: 492
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/5/2010 4:57:01 PM
Pirate,

Birth control is probably the best thing thats happened to the human population. Its population density that drives the greed for the available goods, land and products in the world.

Some think the world population growth can go on forever but it can't.

Mateo
On another note, its the huge union funds invested in the market that forces business to have a better bottom line. The large amount of union money is shifted to the business who gives the best return. At one time stocks were bought and held for much longer periods of time, at least for a couple years. Maybe this was because it used to cost more to buy stocks. Now the market is more like a large roulette wheel.
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