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 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 400
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?Page 9 of 44    (4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44)
‘Global warming’ has become the grand political narrative of the age, replacing Marxism as a dominant force for controlling liberty and human choices.

-- Prof. P. Stott


Speaking of "mental states", do you mean Philip Stott, professor emeritus at the "School of Oriental and African Studies"? With absolutely no qualifications in the field of global warming, and who's never published a single peer-reviewed paper in a scientific journal in the field? You mean THAT Philip Stott?!!

Then let me guess, you're also probably a big fan of that other "beloved" global warming "denier", Professor Emeritus Harold Lewis, formerly of the over 50,000 member American Physical Society (APS)? That is until he resigned in disgust (and embarrassment), when he could only find 60 other members willing to sign his crackpot "petition" (poor guy).

Looks like you're not too discriminating re: your "sources".... so long as they only say what you want to hear!
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 402
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/22/2010 10:39:37 PM
OK, then just for the sake of discussion, let's say the answer to those questions is "no". So what if we're wrong (which is always a possibility)? And what's the downside of erring on the side of caution (i.e., reducing emissions, fossil fuels, and non-renewables)?
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 404
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/23/2010 8:36:41 AM
"Socialist Thugs", "Kool Aid Drinkers", "Leftists", "Dullards", etc...... speaking of "being taken seriously", um, do you talk like that all the time?!!
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 405
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/23/2010 9:28:35 AM
And what's the downside of erring on the side of caution (i.e., reducing emissions, fossil fuels, and non-renewables)?


It's extremely expensive to do things like that, at least on a scale big enough to matter. If enough people were willing to pay for these things at the price they cost to produce, a market for them would already exist.

But because that's not the case, government has to coerce them through various laws. And when it agrees to international treaties to do these things, it sacrifices some of our sovereignty.

Not all of us want extremists in other countries who sign these treaties determining how we have to live. And not all of us like the idea of the U.S. government becoming any larger and more coercive than it is already.

I've studied the origins of federal environmental laws like the Clean Air Act, and I'm very sure no one at the time meant to define CO2 as a "pollutant." Go and read the records of the congressional debates on the bill. And yet a few years ago, a majority of the Court--using some highly creative logic to justify the decision it wanted--said otherwise.

That decision allows Mr. Obama to use an EPA rule as a proxy for the Cap and Trade law he'll never get. So, with an assist from a very questionable Supreme Court decision, the Executive Branch may be able to use thousands of unelected bureaucrats to make new law that will stifle industry throughout the U.S.

In effect, that's giving the president and EPA the power to legislate, which the Constitution reserves to Congress. Members of Congress are accountable to the people, as we just saw Nov. 2. But EPA bureaucrats are hardly accountable to the people at all. This administration has made a habit of lawless actions like that, and that ought to disturb everyone in this country.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 406
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/23/2010 9:55:10 AM
Well, "green" investment stimulates the economy too, just like war & the military... except the products do more than just go "boom" (or kill people).

But I do hear the concerns re: "expense", "sovereignty", and "control". Yet we've still managed to cope with all those same issues whenever confronted with other emergencies (like war and terrorism). So why should we be any less inclined when faced with the (possible) prospect of worldwide disasters, such as rising sea levels, flooding, massive crop loss, food & energy shortages, civil unrest, etc.? How's that any less important than making preparations for a possible war, and why take the chance & do nothing?
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 407
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/23/2010 11:31:45 AM
Geez, Pirate, if you're gonna cite "proof", the least you can do is pick ones that even the most cursory check doesn't show to be bogus!

Like the crackpot "Oregon Petition", where the Scientific American found most of the so-called "31,000 scientists" either disagreed or didn't recall ever signing the petition, and that at most, only about 200 were actually even climate researchers (or as the S.A. politely put it, "a respectable number, though rather a small fraction of the climatological community"). Not to mention falsely associating themselves with the National Academy of Sciences (plus all those "questionable" signatories like, "Michael J. Fox", "Robert C. Byrd", and "John C. Grisham"....)!
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 409
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/23/2010 12:04:53 PM

Rather unlike Europe, however, Californians are engaged in a debate over whether to re-take control of policies that many feel their political class has demonstrated an inability to handle responsibly. While opponents of this want to focus attention on the identity of employers who support Prop. 23, what are their own interests? Do their obvious financial stakes not indicate they stand to benefit from the very predictable outcome of AB32? When the state robs Peter to pay Paul, it can count on Paul's enthusiastic support. That is surely the case here.

Really? So is that why Prop. 23 got shot down so heavily in Cali, despite massive advertising by the energy industry (and why it received more "No" votes than any other issue on the ballot)?!
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 411
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/23/2010 2:13:52 PM
the concerns re: "expense", "sovereignty", and "control". Yet we've still managed to cope with all those same issues whenever confronted with other emergencies (like war and terrorism). So why should we be any less inclined when faced with the (possible) prospect of worldwide disasters, such as rising sea levels etc.?


War and terrorism are real emergencies. There's no "possible" about them. It doesn't follow that the sacrifices the country makes when confronted with those things are also justified by emergencies which are just speculative.


"green" investment stimulates the economy too


If there were enough demand for a product like that, someone would already be making it, and it would sell at a certain price. The fact it doesn't exist shows that the potential producers aren't persuaded there's enough demand to sell it at a price that would allow them a reasonable profit.

When government requires products to be produced, it may do it through simple coercion, as it did with the CAFE and safety standards for cars. The carmakers had to meet this by making their cars cheaper in other ways, and by raising the prices.

But if that really gave buyers a lot more car for a little extra money, they would have demanded it, and the manufacturers would already been doing it on their own. So it must have had just the opposite effect--to make people may more for improvements than most of them wanted to.

Government can also subsidize the cost of producing new goods through R&D grants, and it can encourage people to buy them through rebates. But what you're overlooking it that this doesn't happen by magic. The money to do those things has to come from someplace.

And it ends up making that much less money available to other private businesses. If government gives people a tax rebate for energy-efficient house materials, someone else has to pay more taxes to compensate for the shortfall. And if it invests in, say, photovoltaic technology, other companies whose tax payments financed that investment have that much less to expand, buy newer machinery, etc.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 412
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/23/2010 6:57:10 PM
Pointing to what Californians vote for is about the silliest thing one could to to try to prove anything at all........ Look where the state is, who keeps getting re-elected and where the state has gone under their control, and where we are now.........

Don't look at me, fzrhusker brought it up, apparently in reference to his argument that "Californians are engaged in a debate over whether to re-take control". But judging from the results of Prop 23, they're re-taking control alright, and it's 'away' from the energy companies!

Which simply reflects all the polls that've indicated the great majority of Californians do see global warming as a threat, and they overwhelmingly support state action to address it. So right or wrong, the rest of y'all are clearly out of step on this particular issue, which is especially significant since California usually leads the way for national trends.

Besides, politics aside, this is where the world is headed, like it or not. And wouldn't we prefer to see the U.S. (and Cali) get the business and the patents, rather than other countries, like Germany, Japan, or (ugh) China?!
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 413
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/24/2010 12:04:26 AM

the great majority of Californians do see global warming as a threat, and they overwhelmingly support state action to address it . . . So right or wrong, the rest of y'all are clearly out of step on this particular issue, which is especially significant since California usually leads the way for national trends.


Before Nick Copernicus, almost everyone in the world thought the Sun revolved around the Earth, too. But it was the few who were out of step with them who were right.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 414
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/24/2010 6:31:11 AM
Before Nick Copernicus, almost everyone in the world thought the Sun revolved around the Earth, too. But it was the few who were out of step with them who were right.

What an ironic analogy, considering statements from folks like the UK's Prime Minister Gordon Brown: "We mustn't be distracted by the behind-the-times, anti-science, flat-earth climate sceptics. We know the science. We know what we must do."

Or as one Flat-Earther argues, "There are rivers that flow for hundreds of miles towards the level of the sea without falling more than a few feet — notably, the Nile, which, in a thousand miles, falls but a foot. A level expanse of this extent is quite incompatible with the idea of the Earth's convexity. It is, therefore, a reasonable proof that Earth is not a globe."

Which sounds an awful lot like the kinds of "proof" we hear from the Deniers these days... in fact I've even heard the Flat-Earthers have a "petition" going of their own, signed by over 30,000 "scientists"!
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 417
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/24/2010 9:53:42 AM
If Bush was president, there would be a huge uproar from the NAACP, ACLU, Hollywood and so on...

You might be right there, although equally troubling, is that on the other hand there probably wouldn't be a peep from those who think he's one of "theirs". In fact we've already had 8 years worth of evidence of that....
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 419
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/24/2010 12:09:31 PM
Mateo rest assured we conservatives would be equally outraged. For my part I've seen the world become smaller, and more government intrusive because the Emos refuse to call things as they are, i.e., avoid profiling for fear upsetting some group. Frankly in a sane world all manner of "hard" lines in the sand would have been drawn long ago, and will be in the future.

Leftist's who imagine the constitution is a suicide pact cannot differentiate the need to monitor phone calls from Afghanistan to Detroit and strip searching grandma.

I suppose there's the "rub" isn't it, where one person's infringement on their civil liberties, is another's example of not letting the Constitution become a "suicide pact".

Not to change the subject, but on that note have recently become interested in what I suspect is a good example of the "worst case" where all this may be headed. Not surprisingly it's in China, with the Chinese Communist Party's "Golden Shield" initiative, already started back in the mid-90's (aka "the Great Firewall of China"). If you ever wondered why there are so many security & video surveillance manufacturers in China, it ain't just because of cheap manufacturing!

Basically, the goal is to eventually have the country blanketed with surveillance equipment, with all of it linked up thru a massive integrated online database on an all-encompassing surveillance network.... incorporating speech and face recognition, closed-circuit television, smart cards, w/credit, criminal & health records, etc. and internet surveillance technologies. Ultimately, they want to be able to monitor every man, woman and child in China, all in the name of "national security" and "public welfare".

The very best in modern surveillance technology & data integration.... all coming soon to an oppressive government near you (BTW, apparently Iran is currently developing a similar system).

Oh, and I should mention that all of this has been facilitated by American telecommunications companies (like Nortel) who have the chinese data contracts, plus it's been enabled by the standardization of telecommunications equipment designed to facilitate electronic surveillance, an ambitious project led by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in the United States, and now adopted as an international standard.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 421
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/24/2010 8:43:46 PM
I hear 'ya, and that's scarey stuff, especially considering the resolution capabilities of current satellite cams!

But actually, it's the gradual integration of data networks with intelligent video recognition that most concerns me. Video & sharing data is one thing, but adding video analytics to that is a huge leap (that's the software that does things like facial recognition in Las Vegas to identify known card sharks, license plates, etc.). Although we probably won't get quite as bad as China, there will no doubt be more cozy deals between business and government that allow for increasing video surveillance during transactions (at gas pumps, fast foods, credit cards, grocery stores, etc.) and of course selling and sharing the data.

And it's worth noting that for all the noise about "socialism", it's actually the scandinavian countries that have been the only ones to specifically build privacy protections against this kind of thing, right into their constitutions!

BTW, you also notice it's American technology companies (like Cisco) driving this, basically just to sell their products (they only care for the profits, not how or where it's used).
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 425
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/29/2010 8:49:28 AM
So, does that mean you're OK with having federal & international banking regulations, or do you prefer the "laissez-faire" approach to Financial Markets?
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 429
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/29/2010 12:51:05 PM
So the International Banking Industry controls the country, but we shouldn't try to impose any regulations on them.... how's that work? And if it's just "too complicated" to even attempt to regulate, then what's to be done about it (besides just complain)? BTW, organized crime and Al Queda are "complicated" too, or perhaps we should we just sit back and do nothing about them?

Actually, that's the only real problem I have with "conspiracy" folks (right or left wing), is that they mostly enjoy just getting worked up over these things. So that even if the conspiracies are true, they seldom seem to have much interest in actually doing anything about them (so what's the point... besides all the "drama")?!
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 431
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/29/2010 2:56:33 PM

controlling money is controlling everything.


I think there's also something to controlling other kinds of private property, like land--and even air and water. That's why the Constitution guarantees private property rights (which is one of the things leftists detest about it.)

We need land for most of our food, and the more a government controls land, air, and water, the more it controls the things we need to survive. Here, the government's rationale for giving someone the shaft is usually made to tug at the heart strings: The poor little delta smelt!

We saw in Russia and China how Stalin and Mao starved tens of millions of people who resisted them by taking away their land. And it can be seen today in hellholes like Sudan, where the kind and wonderful Muslims in power are starving out people in the Darfur.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 432
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/29/2010 6:17:00 PM
There is no conspiracy required. The 'too big to work" principal is the issue. If there is a conspiracy, it is some leap of imagining that the wants and needs of the parties are 1. synchronous, 2. with appropriate checks, balances and controls that can be sustained over time.

Charlie Rangel was in charge to a large extent of the spending in the US. he was recently found guilty of charges that would put us in a cell next to Madoff but he will be reelected by 80% of the people in his district.

I'm taking a pass on being controlled, regulated, or otherwise involved with slugtards like him, or you.

Which is really just a long-winded way of saying you have no new ideas or alternatives to offer, and would rather find things to complain about. Or as Sen. Senator Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) once challenged a contentious Tea Party group in Charleston, "'What do you want to do? You take back your country -- and then do what with it?' He said everybody suddenly went from being kind of hostile to just dead silent."

Meaning all this constant "rage" is basically nothing more than just political (& emotional) masturbation.

And speaking of which, no offense taken re: getting "involved", especially since it's obvious you already have a "man crush" on someone else here....
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 435
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/30/2010 12:21:03 AM

And speaking of which, no offense taken re: getting "involved", especially since it's obvious you already have a "man crush" on someone else here....


What in he!! are you talking about, Jack? Are you trying to say my friend GC is queer? For all any of us knows, *you're* the punk here. I don't know who the fvck you think you are to say that kind of crap.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 436
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/30/2010 1:37:06 AM

Ireland was a booming country and then 6 months ago joined the socialist controlled EU and now they are in ruins by taking the debt forced upon them by the bankers that run the whole thing. There is no conspiracy, they are completely up front and you can even read their papers on world currency and world government. This has not been a conspiracy for years now.

Ireland has the lowest corporate tax rates in the EU. Yet it's being bailed out by "socialist" Sweden, which BTW, has been relatively unaffected by the global financial crisis.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 439
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/30/2010 9:47:34 AM
Here is what and who we are up against and their planned economy. After reading this list it seems very hypocritical that they are not standing up against the TSA and such. They want government control and yet profess civil liberties, you can't have both.

The TSA's been around for 9 years now since Bush enacted it. So how come the "much-reviled by the Right" ACLU has been the only one who's done anything about it (or do conservatives care about "government control" and "freedom", only when it's a Dem POTUS)?

If you want to be Socialists and Europeans so bad.... I have an idea.... Move there.

Funny how all the self-righteous "love it or leave it" types are always the first to prattle on about "our Constitution and the freedom and rights of the individual", when in reality their "ideal" actually sounds more like China and Iran!
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 440
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/30/2010 10:10:27 AM
Would be happy to chat with you about that. But do me a favor and first be a little more specific about what you think "Socialism" means. And I don't care even if it's just the 'winger definition, instead of the textbook one. But just so we're arguing/talking about the same thing here.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 444
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/30/2010 2:32:57 PM

471 BILLION dollars for REGULATORY AGENCIES. 420 BILLION is for ECONOMIC regulations.


And that's the very least of it. These regulations cost many times that much in the decreases in productivity and loss of jobs they cause.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 445
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 11/30/2010 2:46:37 PM

Signs that have the street names in all 'CAPS' must be changed to include upper and lowercase letters.


If I get time, I'll look up what law's being used as authority for this. I'm just guessing the regulation comes from DOT.

It's one thing for the U.S. to regulate highways. But since when is signage on a city's streets not exclusively the concern of the state that city's in? This sounds like another one of those extreme uses of the Commerce Clause. The best remedy for them, I think, is for us voters to demand Congress amend the law so it's no longer authorized. And then see if Mr. B. Hussein Obama has the nerve to use his veto.
 mateo45
Joined: 1/17/2008
Msg: 448
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics?
Posted: 12/1/2010 3:42:32 AM
Some people say that the war of the northern aggression, settled the constitutional issue if a state could legally secede. I don't see it that way. Force simply held the country together with bayonets. The constitutionally correct way, would have been to attempt to pass the 13th amendment before secession. I think that they knew they didn't have the votes, so they resorted to violence.


"The war of the northern aggression!"..... geez, haven't heard that one in awhile! (aka, "The Great Unpleasantness")! Although if my "Yankee" history serves me right, wasn't it actually the South that started it, when the confederate forces in Charleston, fired on the Union forces holding Fort Sumter?!

And even back then, the southern defenders of the "Peculiar Institution" of Slavery sounded a lot like today's defenders of "Social Darwinism" (aka "The Free Market"): the "Constitutional" inviolability of "Private Property" (the 5th Amendment), "States Rights" and the "Right" to own slaves (vs the Constitution), the "Natural Order", and even the (Fundamentalist) Bible, "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh."

"Yowsah, Massa.... wid 'dem tax breaks on yo plantation, and all 'dem "trickle down" economics, you sho' done take real good care of us po' black folks! We don't need no dam Freedom!"

Mint Julip anyone....? ;-p
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