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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?      Home login  
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 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 26
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?Page 2 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
^^^ What those two guys up above me said!!!!

The only thing I'd like to add is that I doubt too many who are posting in here who criticize "Canadian" input ... realize that not all posters who dwell in Canada are "Canadian".

Some are American citizens who have every right to spout off about American politics ... just for the fact that they are indeed voting Americans.

To "Joe" I simply say ... ... well done on that post.

To those who are so concerned what being considered a "Teabagger" represents ... take it to your fellow "Teabaggers" who are getting such a big kick out of "Teabagging" the Democrats (or so they think).

They are the ones getting screwed over ... by the very people who are organizing the "Teabagging".
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 27
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 2:45:12 PM
Perhaps this debate is pointless to some.Not to me I found out some very interesting information on this "grassroot's" movement.

especially msg 1 and 2,19 and 25.<img src=http://www.plentyoffish.com/smiles/icon_201.gif border=0>
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 28
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 2:55:00 PM

And Forbes is just a working stiff who "pulled himself up by the bootstraps"... Only among conservative Americans could a movement bankrolled by America's richest conservatives be considered "grassroots"...


lol
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 29
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 4:58:05 PM

I am so tired of Americans complaining about Canadian opinions, on a Canadian site.
You have the option of going to American sites, where only American opinions are allowed. But POF is based in Canada and welcomes the thoughts and ideas from anyone in the world with internet access.



Proved my point. Thanks.

But on your other points, you don't think something as simple as a few posts on a website can manipulate people's thinking? Either you are giving the people as a whole too much credit or you aren't giving enough where you should be.

This site is a dot.com not a dot.ca. I've seen posts from tons of people who didn't have a clue this was a Canadian website (until some Canadian made a statement such as yours above). It isn't written in Canadian (that's a joke for those who take things too seriously) apart from a few "eh's" (and most of those come from an American) and unless you look closely Marcus doesn't advertise it as such. But some day when I'm so bored and the only thing better than suicide would be to waste 2 or 3 hours of time doing so, I'll educate myself on your government a bit and come on here and tell you how badly yours sucks and see how some of you Canadians feel about someone on the outside sticking his nose in your business. I already know how touchy some of you are.

 Super Ryan
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 30
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 6:50:08 PM

Proved my point. Thanks.

?????????????

you don't think something as simple as a few posts on a website can manipulate people's thinking?

I think we have a different opinion of what manipulation is.
To me manipulating someones opinion, is to sway an opinion with dishonest tactics. But when it comes to the left-wing posters on this thread, they seem to be telling the truth and being honest. I don't see it as manipulation, only people stating facts and opinions.


Either you are giving the people as a whole too much credit or you aren't giving enough where you should be.

I fully believe the average American can be manipulated (average Canadian as well). I just don't see the majority of the posts coming from Canadians as manipulation.
Of course I do see lots of right-wing Americans consistantly posting lies, that they know are lies, in an attempt to manipulate American minds.

It isn't written in Canadian

You are correct with this statement.
If you look at the forum sections, the humour section uses the American spelling: humor.

This site is a dot.com not a dot.ca. I've seen posts from tons of people who didn't have a clue this was a Canadian website (until some Canadian made a statement such as yours above).

So what. The whole point is that everyone is welcome to post at POF. Why should you have the right to silence others, simply because you don't like what they are saying?
This is a Candian site, and it does not matter if it is advertized that way or not. The owner of the site made it so everyone can share their opinions, with a few rules to keep it friendly.
An American can have a site and keep it open to everyone like POF.
Or if you like, you can start a site and not allow Canadians to post comments.
But right now, this site belongs to a Canadian, and he seems to want people to freely share ideas, regardless of nationality.

I'll educate myself on your government a bit and come on here and tell you how badly yours sucks

I find it very sad that the only reason you would learn about Canada, is so you can insult others. Why would you not just want to learn out of curiosity?

waste 2 or 3 hours of time doing so

If you want to learn enough about the intracacies of Canadian politics to insult Canadians, you will need a lot more than 3 hours. At least if you don't want to come off as a raving idiot.

see how some of you Canadians feel about someone on the outside sticking his nose in your business.

Learn about the Canadian political process, and I will gladley have a discussion about it, negatives and all.

I already know how touchy some of you are.

We get touchy when people lie about Canada. And right-wing Americans love to lie about Canadian healthcare.

If you really do want to learn about Canadian politics, be warned it is vastly different to American politics, but it can be interesting. Our system is based on the British system with a few exceptions. Currently our federal government has four parties seated plus one independant.
But there is a colourful history in Canadian politics. I recommend starting with Louis Riel, then you can check out Quebec seperation and the FLQ crisis.
Enjoy.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 31
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 10:06:33 PM

I'll educate myself on your government a bit and come on here and tell you how badly yours sucks

I find it very sad that the only reason you would learn about Canada, is so you can insult others. Why would you not just want to learn out of curiosity?


Actually, those cultural filters would be the most to blame for any "suckiness". There's quite a few things here that Americans would find strange - at least many of them would. See, if I were to take an American or a Canadian and drop them in the right place - they might have a hard time realizing they were in another country. An alien standing on the border would be rather puzzled why these people dressed the same, listened to the same music, drove many of the same cars, and ate many of the same foods.

He'd be puzzled as to why anyone had divided them in two.

It's only once you get below that surface, and spend some time here, that you'd start to see those deeper things showing up.

Personally , I'd think it fascinating to see how some Americans view some of our differences.

One example, relating to the topic at hand, is one "grassroots" movement we had start out West.


In Of Passionate Intensity, Trevor Harrison seeks to explain the origins and subsequent electoral success of the Reform party. Employing a historical-sociological methodology, Harrison uses the case of Reform to address two fundamental questions: "Why do populist parties arise? What factors influence the ideological orientation of such parties" ? The book begins with a well-crafted discussion of populism that outlines and illustrates the often contradictory definitions found in previous work on the subject. As a partial remedy to this conceptual ambiguity, Harrison constructs an alternative theory of populism that argues "populist unrest results from delegitimation crises and the resultant decomposition of previous political alliances" . From this starting point he begins an in-depth study that traces the party's maturation through four stages: roots, rise, legitimation, and transformation. In each stage Harrison explores what he considers to be the political, economic, and social crises that propelled Reform from fringe movement to legitimate contender for political power. The result is an interesting, albeit sometimes jargon-laden, account of the party's development that neatly situates it within the larger context of Canadian political history. Although Of Passionate Intensity has much to recommend it, specifically its theory of populism, the analysis of Reform itself is somewhat less satisfying. Simply stated, Harrison does not tell us much about Reform as a political party. The impression is that of the "outsider looking in," but unsure of how important organizational capacity or internal political considerations are to explaining the party's success.

The strength of Waiting for the Wave is its analysis of the tactical and strategic political calculus that has guided Reform's efforts to become a legitimate political contender. According to Flanagan, the party's policy positions have been driven by Manning's view that populist parties sweep to power on a wave of discontent. To "keep the party afloat and paddling in the troughs between the waves," Flanagan contends, the party has employed five positioning strategies: The Party of the Right, The Party of English Canada, The Party of the West, The Party of the Hinterland, and The Party of the People . he strength of Waiting for the Wave is its analysis of the tactical and strategic political calculus that has guided Reform's efforts to become a legitimate political contender. According to Flanagan, the party's policy positions have been driven by Manning's view that populist parties sweep to power on a wave of discontent. To "keep the party afloat and paddling in the troughs between the waves," Flanagan contends, the party has employed five positioning strategies: The Party of the Right, The Party of English Canada, The Party of the West, The Party of the Hinterland, and The Party of the People. Although complete discussion of these strategies is beyond the scope of this review, even those readers only generally familiar with the party and its message will recognize aspects of all five strategies.

http://tinyurl.com/yk8s4oc


So this is indeed a model that any non-astroturf (ie true populist) party might follow in either country - even given those cultural differences.

Once those forces that create it lessen in intensity, then the party and platform lose their gravitational pull, as it were.



Reform had also failed in 1997 to establish itself as the clear right-wing alternative to the Liberal Party. The Progressive Conservative Party, which had been steadily rebuilt under Charest, enjoyed a modest revival in the 1997 election. It won 20 seats, up from the dismal two it had won during in the 1993 election. The split in the right-wing vote between Reform and the PCs allowed the Liberals to win a second majority government with only 40% of the vote, the combined vote of the Reform and the PCs in 1997 equalled the same amount. Political observers noted that it was a divided right which allowed the Liberals to gain a second majority government, and claimed that if the two parties did not put away their differences, the result would repeat itself.

Manning recognized the frustration by Canada's right-wing proponents and began discussions towards the launch of a new pan-Canadian party, using "United Alternative" ("UA") forums to bring grassroots Reformers together with Tories. The goal was to create a small-c conservative political alternative to the Liberals that could woo Ontarian and Atlantic Canadian voters. Manning was supported by the more right-of-centre "Focus Federally For Reform," while "Grassroots United Against Reform's Demise" ("GUARD") opposed the initiative. The United Alternative proposal created a strong debate in the Reform Party. Manning himself wrote a letter to the effect that he did not want to lead Reform anymore, but would only lead a new party. A leadership vote in 1998 managed to officially put aside the differences, with Manning winning a large majority in support of his leadership. Afterwards, Reform steadily progressed towards creating the United Alternative.

The outcome was the creation of a new party, the Canadian Reform Conservative Alliance (more commonly known as the Canadian Alliance). It fused about half of the Progressive Conservative policies, and half of Reform's policies. Reform disbanded on March 27, 2000 and was folded into the Alliance.

Even though Reform and the Alliance are considered separate parties, former Reform members dominated the new party. The Reform parliamentary caucus, with few exceptions, simply became the Alliance caucus. As a result, the Alliance was widely seen as a renamed and enlarged Reform Party. Critics of the party frequently referred to it as the "Reform Alliance" to underscore its previous incarnation as Reform, at a time when many Canadians east of Manitoba had grown uneasy about the multiple allegations of discrimination and extremism within the Reform Party as portrayed in the media.

Manning stood in the first leadership race for the new party, but lost to the younger and more charismatic Stockwell Day, the treasurer (finance minister) and deputy premier of Alberta.

The creation of the Canadian Alliance, and its eventual merger in 2003 with the Progressive Conservative Party to form the new Conservative Party of Canada, alienated some of the old Reform populists, who saw the merger as the final demise of the former Reform Party and the return of Tory indifference to western Canadian concerns. This led to the creation of a new "Reform Association of Canada". "Bring Back Real Reform" also was created by a fringe group of original Reformers from Ontario, with the aim of bringing back a federal Reform Party. Under the tag "Operation Back to the Future", it was launched in Spring 2005 as an umbrella for all original Reformers across the nation who felt that they were still without a political home. Neither of these groups has attracted any support.

Most of these people were also members of GUARD, were anti-UA, and were generally unsupportive of the Canadian Alliance, seeing it as a political vehicle for a Tory takeover even though the Alliance was dominated by former Reform Party members.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Party_of_Canada


This may in fact prove to be a model for the path the "legitimate" Tea Party protesters follow, in the end. I would venture to guess that the astroturf side could never accept this as a model, however.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 32
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/27/2010 4:36:52 AM
Monty, you are right, I've been up there many times and on the surface there are no real differences to speak of.

The thing I thought was funny and the only reason I responded to the other guy posting is he completely ignored what I said in the post when I initialed asked you the questions. And all I did was ask for information, I didn't ask to get hammered. I knew it was a matter of time before it happened and it did. I got hammered. And even though I said it was going to happen, and it did, when I made mention of it I got "??????????????????" as a response. So be it.

In politics in America Canadians will find that both sides warp the truth a bit to fit their message. I don't the left any less guilty of this than the right here or anywhere else. The Huffington Post is found guilty of slander just as much as the Drudge report, maybe even moreso. I suppose maybe Canadians differ on that opinion, because they are so much further left than we are.

I would love to wax on this more but I must be off to work.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 33
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/27/2010 11:44:10 PM

In politics in America Canadians will find that both sides warp the truth a bit to fit their message.


Well, don't tell a soul, but that's not a uniquely American thing.
 angelsands
Joined: 9/17/2005
Msg: 34
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/8/2010 8:33:15 PM
Uhh... I only like.. ICED TEA... AND NOT FROM A BAG,,,!!
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 35
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/9/2010 5:52:47 AM
There is mounting evidence that those that call themselves "teabaggers" are the ones that are getting "teabagged" by those who are controlling the purse of their so called movement. The self-appointed leaders of the Tea Party are being financed by billionaires to defeat public policies like health care insurance reform that would benefit mostly the people who live in red states.

If you happen to have watched the C-Span coverage of the Tea Party convention proceedings you most likely saw that the room where the leaders were giving their speeches in the morning was about 3/4 empty. That was not a great demonstration of what an uprising is. It convinced me that the Tea Party is nothing but a front for the rich and powerful elite bent on manipulating the masses to delay the necessary reforms in this country.

Sooner or later the people will learn about the financial arrangements that are propelling the Tea Party, and then we will see if they are a popular movement or just another fake movement like the ones that came before them. You remember the Moral Majority, don't you?
 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 36
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/9/2010 6:54:25 AM
same as it ever was.

The rich and powerful co opting movements and even starting bogus movements such as the tea-baggers party or whatever the term is.

They are leading the sheep to be fleeced again.

This country is in serious trouble, R or D both lead us no where beneficial for the majority.

They both serve their rich masters and their corporate machines.

There is nothing independent about the tea bagger party. There are some people whom go there whom are and probably are truly their because they are frustrated and wish to see change outside of D or R but, they are being taken advantage of by the very people they wish to shrug off.

Anytime a corporation such as Faux news co-opt a movement of people like that you know it already went to hell in a handbag and will bring nothing but the same o same o. Even worse when it was those very people whom started the movement in the first place and then try to make it seem "grass roots".....
 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 37
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/9/2010 9:24:33 AM
Wow!

Capitalists caused two major crashes in our economy in the last 100 years and you blame socialists hahaha!

Wow!

You call progressives socialists and I know a great deal of progressives and all of them are capitalists. I have met few socialists in the USA. We still suffer from the effects of McCarthyism. People are still afraid of their own shadows and politics is the same as usual..

The very people whom bankrupt the nation (greedy capitalists) are blaming the "socialists" that is so typical.

That word gets thrown around a lot but, so few actually know what it is.

Things that are actually quite socialist in this country people love.

Public works, garbage collection/sanitation, fire department, military, public libraries, social security the list goes on and on.


Let's see capitalism creates things like Wall street, multi national corporations that suck the jobs out of our nation, war for a profit, imprisoning people for a profit, a broken ass health care system that throws money down the toilet, general taking advantage of the poor for profit etc etc.
 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 38
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/9/2010 11:35:58 AM
Yes all of my progressive friends are quite the capitalists. Not one socialist among them.

No one brought up communism but you. Socialism is not communism.

Since you brought it up though China a communist nation pretty much owns the USA now.

What bankrupted us was the bloated military budget, needless wars, and the deregulation of the markets by the free trade nuts spurred by the greedy **stards that took advantage and held our economy hostage.

Going into debt at this time is better than letting another great depression happen. Now what I think we will agree on is they should have never gave that money to the people whom caused the problem to begin with.

Just because someone is poor does not make them lazy, nor stupid, nor unmarketable, and most I know personally do not live off any teats. Those are all stereotypes that many people in this country like to tote as some kind of fact.







The fact that we took TED KENNEDY'S Senate seat


Thanks for being truthful and letting everyone know that the tea baggers are just another wing of the republican party. Though most of us already knew this.

I will watch in horror as you guys get run over with tanks on the news holding your pitchforks and torches and pray for your foolish souls. Violence will not solve a thing.


 angelsands
Joined: 9/17/2005
Msg: 39
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/9/2010 12:20:48 PM
I would have to agree with Mr swamp to an extent.. Yes, there is a new movement out there.. called tea baggers.. (Uhh.. I wonder if they also bag the marijuana someone ships from California.. You know, the medical stuff..!).. But that does not mean that WE, the INDEPENDENTS are part of it.. As a true to honest independent, I attended a couple of these so called "tea parties"... I was expecting and actual party England style.. with muffins and all. .. Now, I went there hoping that I could LEARN some from them.. Praying that they had the answers that I been searching for...(GEE.. and I don't actually believe in GOD..!!).. Expecting that once I got back home, I will know more about what it need to be done and that I would have a better idea as to what I CAN DO TO HELP AND MAKE THE CHANGE WE ALL LONG FOR AND DESPERATLY NEED.../... what I find instead..?? A whole bunch of politicians wanna be with a rhetoric that sounded faker than a 3 dollar bill.. a whole bunch of stupid people that, either believe what was being said because they wanted to believe.. or were PAID to cheer and clap as Ms Pelossi did when Mr. Obama gave the State of the Union Speech..THAT IS DISGUSTING...!!! And I remember actually feeling sorry for those people... Because I realized they..... DID NOT KNOW...!! THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND A THING... !! they were just cheering and that was enough to get the "party" going...literally..!! A few days later. I was watching the local news. Another "teabaggers" rally..!! What was in it..?? The same "SPEECHERS" of the previous times I attended.. the same lines.... OVER AND OVER... the same Stupid rhetoric trying to blame on others but NOT OFFERING ALTERNATIVE SOLUTIONS.... just.. uhh.. trying to make the most noise possible. .... A few weeks later, THE SAME.. and it make wonder WHO OR WHAT WAS REALLY BEHIND THIS STUFF...!! I honestly can't tell You why or who... But I can tell You this.. specially YOU , Mr swamp.. WE INDEPENDENTS.. ARE NOT... AND I REPEAT.. WE ARE NOT.. AS IN.. NOT!.. TEABAGGERS...!! or republicans or democrats or even independents per label.. And we are growing by the minute.. So, watch out politicians or politicians wanna be.. YOU either start working and do something PRODUCTIVE for OUR country.. or WE the independents... WE, the PEOPLE .. the ones that can not be labeled... WILL BE COMMING AFTER YOU.. SO.. UHH.. BE SCARED.. BE REALLY SCARED.....!!!!

 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 40
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/9/2010 12:38:40 PM
Diss the Tea Partiers all you want to, but I posted a poll earlier in this thread that showed more Americans identify with the Tea Party than with either the Democrats OR the Republicans.


It's not only people on the left that may be dissing the teabaggers. The news have been reporting that groups of teabaggers have been dissing each other. Some of the base members have complained about being used and about the profiteering within the Tea Party movement. One of their complaints has been the high cost of the ticket which practically shut out many of the supporters from attending the convention. Check this article:


Internal disputes roil Tea Party convention
January 26, 2010 | 9:52 am

It was supposed to be a gathering of true believers, an occasion to celebrate the Tea Party movement's grassroots victories. And activists have had victories -- fanning opposition to President Obama's healthcare reform package in those angry tea party town halls last summer, along with last week's come-from-behind U.S. Senate victory for Republican Scott Brown in Massachusetts that denied Democrats their 60-vote majority.

Convention organizers were thrilled when they got a star headliner -- former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin -- to keynote the Tea Party convention planned for Nashville next month.

But now rifts within the movement are threatening to derail the convention, organized by Tea Party Nation. The conflict: a convention that seeks to maximize the Tea Party's political clout by developing a mainstream organization and an audience of angry voters dedicated to grassroots actions and suspicious of top-down management.

“The idea that there’s one person, one event, that can somehow be the Tea Party spokesperson is inaccurate and counter to the movement of free-thinking individuals that want less government intervention,” says John O’Hara, author of “A New American Tea Party.” “This top-down model is what’s being rejected in politics, and that you’d adopt that for your movement is bizarre.”

Some have balked at the price tag for the convention -- $549 per ticket and a $9.95 fee, plus hotel and airfare -- as out of touch with the lifestyle of the average tea partier. Others have raised eyebrows at Palin's reported $100,000 speaking fee.

And some have withdrawn from the convention altogether. Philip Glass was supposed to lead workshops on his strategy as national director of the National Precinct Alliance, which seeks to influence Republican Party politics by putting conservatives in local and state offices. But now he's walking.

“We are very concerned about the appearance of TPN profiteering and exploitation of the grassroots movement,” he said in a statement Sunday. “We were under the impression that TPN was a nonprofit organization like NPA, interested only in uniting and educating Tea Party activists on how to make a real difference in the political arena.”

Sherry Phillips, who runs TPN with her husband, Judson, told the New York Times that “our budget on this convention is very tight" and that "if there is any profit, the money will go toward furthering the cause of conservatism.”

As former Republican Rep. Joe Scarborough of Florida wrote in Newsweek, “At the very moment the tea party has proved itself as an undeniable political force that must be taken seriously, it is at risk of tearing itself apart. “Riven with internal conflicts and lacking a coherent structure, the tea party's biggest challenge may be trying to deal with its own success."

So severe is the rift among activists that some are even predicting a protest outside the convention site by disaffected members of the movement. Angry meets angrier.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2010/01/internal-disputes-roil-tea-party-convention.html
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 41
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/9/2010 1:00:20 PM

Thanks for posting that... It proves the movement is NOT under the control of big corporate interests, doesn't it? I mean, if they were misbehaving, or refusing to move in lockstep, surely someone would just send a memo and put a stop to it, wouldn't they?


Wow, that interpretation really takes the lollypop!

What it shows is that the Tea Party is being run by the people being paid by those who control the purse, and they want to run it the way that would fit into their plans. Those that want to be part of an independent movement but don't have the power to buy a ticket to get into the party will end up just being used as the useful idiots that show up with their own handmade signs to protest and disrupt, but they will not have a say about what the real goals of the movement are supposed to be at all.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 42
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/9/2010 1:15:45 PM

Back to the article - there are millions of Tea Partiers all over this country. I am certainly one of them, and frankly, I didn't even know anyone was HAVING any kind of convention... Maybe that's why it was so small. What folks just aren't getting, or just deliberately REFUSE to get, is that is really IS a grassroots movement. Much of it takes place right on Facebook, just like the protests were organized in Iran. It's not a political party. There is no charter, or bylaws, or governing body. No one calls the shots - certainly not some corporation or Fox news... If there WERE someone calling the shots - you wouldn't see disagreement. If it was all paid astroturf as the left keeps alledging, people would just take thier paychecks and do as they were told.


So much for being a real "teabagger." Don't even know what is really going on.

I bet the next time they call out on Facebook for the hordes to show up with signs at some building, they will just show up as the useful idiots that they are. They don't even know that their rage is being manipulated to achieve the goals of billionaires that want to keep on screwing the rest of the people for as long as they can.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 43
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/9/2010 1:38:19 PM
Well, it is interesting to the extent that it shows just how disconnected from reality the right in America is today. Obviously no rational person thinks of Hitler as a socialist - no more than one would think the Pope is a Scientologist. But there are many in America who are convinced of it. And they actually dictate the agenda of the media in America.

Just think of the loopy stuff that has gotten media coverage: Birth Certificate; John Kerry's Silver Star; weapons of mass destruction; weapons of mass destruction secretly hidden in Syria; Iraqi links to Al Qaeda; Socialist agendas of conservative Democrats. Obviously I could sit here typing for hours, but it's all a matter of delusions that make it on to the national dialogue.
 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 44
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History
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/9/2010 1:54:20 PM


They don't even know that their rage is being manipulated to achieve the goals of billionaires that want to keep on screwing the rest of the people for as long as they can.


That is exactly the point and they took that script from the republican party for certain. They have been getting rural people to vote against their own self interest for the interest of the oligarchs for a very long time. Nothing new there.


As far as the Hitler rant save it for those whom don't already know better.

If Hitler was such a lefty he would have not went crazy on the communists. Remember the
Reichstag?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire

Hitler was a right wing loonie as was his buddy Benito Mussolini in Italy, and lets not forget Franco in Spain. You can try to spin it if you like but, only severely unstudied people will ever think he or any of those other nuts were lefty. Hitler hated the communists beyond all recognition. He railed constantly about two things Jews and commies.

He actually tried to get the poor to support him by promising some socialist changes but, only to try to weaken the power and pull of the communist movement in the country to the poor. He named his party as "socialist" to try to win over the poor. Which was most of Germany at that time since WWI left them in shambles. There is no real scholars whom would ever claim hitler to be a lefty.

Further if hitler was a lefty he would have joined forces with the commies not try to kill them all off as he did.

He was certainly one of the right wings most remembered/infamous nut jobs.

The left certainly has a few of their own but, hitler was not one of them.

The only type of left hitler really might have been was handed.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 45
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/9/2010 2:10:26 PM
The only type of left hitler really might have been was handed.

Well... actually there WAS another type of "left" that Hitler was...

During "selection" (deciding which Jews would live or die), being sent to the LEFT meant DEATH and being sent to the RIGHT meant a "life" of slave labour to the CORPORATIONS and the MILITARY WAR MACHINE...

An interesting dichotomy with some very Freudian overtones... left = death... right = corporate/military slave...

No - it was the "National Socialist German Workers’ Party"... You left out a key word... The one that counts...

A history lesson or two would help... the operative word was National... as in Nationalist/Patriot... or in American parlance... Conservative/Republican
 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 46
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History
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/9/2010 9:23:19 PM
Oh no say it aint so madfiddler! I thought these nuts were on to something calling all the old timers for the last 60 years on their secret agenda to protect the left wing from having the stain of hitler on their record! *Said in complete Satirical fashion*

Talk about tin foil hats!!

seems like the Karl Rove and gang are up to the same stuff as usual trying to pin all their weaknesses on the left and rewrite history even though no true scholars even the nuttiest of them would ever call hitler a lefty. Nothing new here.

Oh but if rush and beck say it is so those historians nor certainly any political scientists and all of the people whom kept it a secret for the last sixty years were such dreadful liars! They had to all be red bastards!! At least pink through and through.. I mean OMG!!! How could they keep this a secret otherwise for the last 60 years?!



The other weakness that they tried to pin on democrats was their claim that republicans are better on national security and keeping us safe. Well guess what one of the worst attack on American soil was under the republicans watch and they responded by burying the country in debt from an unneeded war in Iraq and a mess in Afghanistan.. Neither made us safer only lose more money all while the economy tanks.

Brilliant job there guys!

So I am learning Tea-Baggers love Orwellian double speak as much as republicans more proof they are just another wing of the same lame duck.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 47
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History
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/9/2010 9:43:53 PM

No - it was the "National Socialist German Workers’ Party"... You left out a key word... The one that counts...

Why don't you actually READ the book? Even if you just read Wikipedia, you can plainly see that Hitler used a lot of the exact same rhetoric you hear from Progressives (Socialists) in America as we speak... Minus the Eugenics of course, unless you count Planned Parenthood...


Nice try , Swamp, but that may go over real well in Georgia - but not here.



Adolf Hitler: Greatness of Religious Fanaticism & Intolerance
The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 1 Chapter 12

Adolf Hitler: Christianity's Greatness Lies in Inexorable Fanaticism
The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 1 Chapter 12

Adolf Hitler: Imitating Christianity's Fanatical, Hysterical Passion
For the greatest revolutionary changes on this earth would not have been thinkable if their motive force, instead of fanatical, yes, hysterical passion, had been merely the bourgeois virtues of law and order.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2
Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction.
-Adolf Hitler

Adolf Hitler: Imitating Christianity's Fanatical Intolerance
Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 5

Adolf Hitler: Filling People with Blind Faith
For how shall we fill people with blind faith in the correctness of a doctrine, if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant changes in its outward structure? ...Here, too, we can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice, and in part quite superfluously, comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its dogmas... it is only such dogmas which lend to the whole body the character of a faith.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 5

Adolf Hitler: Imitating the Christian Creed
I have followed [the Church] in giving our party program the character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its amendment, every logical criticism, or attack on it, has been rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be built up on a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory or irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it.
- Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, The Voice of Destruction, pp. 239-40

Adolf Hitler: Media Must be Cleansed of Sexual Filth
Parallel to the training of the body a struggle against the poisoning of the soul must begin. Our whole public life today is like a hothouse for sexual ideas and simulations. Just look at the bill of fare served up in our movies, vaudeville and theaters, and you will hardly be able to deny that this is not the right kind of food, particularly for the youth...Theater, art, literature, cinema, press, posters, and window displays must be cleansed of all manifestations of our rotting world and placed in the service of a moral, political, and cultural idea.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 10

Adolf Hitler: Decline of Christianity in Europe is Dangerous
While both denominations maintain missions in Asia and Africa in order to win new followers for their doctrine -- an activity which can boast but very modest success compared to the advance of the Mohammedan faith in particular -- right here in Europe they lose millions and millions of inward adherents who either are alien to all religious life or simply go their own ways. The consequences, particularly from a moral point of view, are not favorable.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 10

Adolf Hitler: Institution of Marriage Must Be Defended
A Volkisch state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2

Adolf Hitler: Burn out the Poison of Immorality
Today Christians ... stand at the head of [this country]... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past ... (few) years.
- Adolf Hitler, quoted in: The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872

Adolf Hitler: The Nazi Party Represents Positive Christianity
"We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession...."
- Article 20 of the program of the German Workers' Party (later named the National Socialist German Workers' Party, NSDAP)

. Adolf Hitler: Fascism is Closer to Christianity than Liberalism or Marxism
The fact that the Curia is now making its peace with Fascism shows that the Vatican trusts the new political realities far more than did the former liberal democracy with which it could not come to terms. ...The fact that the Catholic Church has come to an agreement with Fascist Italy ...proves beyond doubt that the Fascist world of ideas is closer to Christianity than those of Jewish liberalism or even atheistic Marxism...
- Adolf Hitler in an article in the Völkischer Beobachter, February 29, 1929, on the new Lateran Treaty between Mussolini's fascist government and the Vatican

Adolf Hitler: Compromises with Atheism Destroy Religious, Ethical Values
By its decision to carry out the political and moral cleansing of our public life, the Government is creating and securing the conditions for a really deep and inner religious life. The advantages for the individual which may be derived from compromises with atheistic organizations do not compare in any way with the consequences which are visible in the destruction of our common religious and ethical values. The national Government sees in both Christian denominations the most important factor for the maintenance of our society. ...
- Adolf Hitler, speech before the Reichstag, March 23, 1933, just before the Enabling Act is passed.

Adolf Hitler: Woman's World is Husband, Family, Children, Home
Woman's world is her husband, her family, her children and her home. We do not find it right when she presses into the world of men.

- Adolf Hitler, quoted in Lucy Komisar, The New Feminism


I hear a lot of the same rhetoric, all right........but not the socialist kind.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 48
view profile
History
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/9/2010 10:33:49 PM
And...strangely....this all leads back to the original tone of this thread...


In this week’s protests at town hall forums, some conservatives have used Nazi imagery to compare President Obama to Adolf Hitler and congressional Democrats to Nazis.

In an interview this week House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said of the town hall protestors loudly assailing President Obama’s health care reform push, “I think they are AstroTurf -- you be the judge, carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on health care. This initiative is funded by the high end. We call it ‘Astroturf,’ it's not really a grass roots movement. It's AstroTurf by some of the wealthiest people of America.”

That some of the protestors are comparing President Obama and congressional Democrats to Adolph Hitler and Nazis is unquestionably true.

That they’re “carrying swastikas and symbols like that” because the protestors themselves are supportive of Hitler and the Nazis, does not seem to be true at all.

Pelosi’s office says she meant the former, not the latter.

Conservatives seized upon the latter.

Yesterday, conservative talk radio giant Rush Limbaugh said that “the Speaker of the House accusing people showing up at these town hall meetings of wearing Swastikas -- that is not insignificant folks. This woman is deranged. They are unraveling. But that is not insignificant. You have the Democrat Speaker of the House saying that people -- citizens -- who are concerned about health care are now wearing Swastikas. She’s basically saying that we are Nazis. She is saying that the people who oppose this are Nazis.”

Limbaugh said it’s liberals, not conservatives, who are the ones who invite the comparison.

“Obama's got a health care logo that's right out of Adolf Hitler's playbook. Now, what are the similarities between the Democrat Party of today and the Nazi Party in Germany? Well, the Nazis were against big business -- they hated big business. And of course we all know that they were opposed to Jewish capitalism. They were insanely, irrationally against pollution. They were for two years mandatory voluntary service to Germany. They had a whole bunch of make-work projects to keep people working, one of which was the Autobahn. They were against cruelty and vivisection of animals, but in the radical sense of devaluing human life, they banned smoking. They were totally against that. They were for abortion and euthanasia of the undesirables, as we all know, and they were for cradle-to-grave nationalized healthcare.”

Limbaugh said that “this is why I have always bristled when I hear people claim conservativism gets close to Nazism. It is liberalism that's the closest you can get to Nazism and socialism. It's all bundled up under the socialist banner. There are far more similarities between Nancy Pelosi and Adolf Hitler than between these people showing up at town halls to protest a Hitler-like policy that's being heralded like a Hitler-like logo.”

Limbaugh said, “Oh, another similarity. Obama is asking citizens to rat each other out like Hitler did. Obama's the one that's got the snitch website right out of the White House, flag@whitehouse.com, asking citizens to report people who are saying weird, odd things. You know the White House responded, ‘No, no, no, we're not taking names here. We're not taking names. We're just taking people who are putting up faulty arguments and refuting them.’ Well, that's not the intention. Ted Kennedy's dad, by the way, Joe Kennedy, sympathetic to Hitler, sympathetic to the Nazis....[Obama] is sending out his brownshirts to head up opposition to genuine American citizens who want no part of what Barack Obama stands for and is trying to stuff down our throats....Adolf Hitler, like Barack Obama, also ruled by dictate. His Cabinet only met once. One day. That was it. Hitler said he didn't need to meet with his Cabinet; he represented the will of the people. He was called the messiah. He said the people spoke through him.”

The ADL’s Foxman specifically said cited Limbaugh’s comparison as offensive, saying “comparisons to the Nazis are deeply offensive and only serve to diminish and trivialize the extent of the Nazi regime’s crimes against humanity and the murder of six million Jews and millions of others in the Holocaust. I don’t see any comparison here. It’s off-center, off-issue and completely inappropriate.”

The American Jewish Congress issued a statement, “The Limbaugh comments comparing Obama ( and Pelosi )to Hitler and the Nazis are grossly offensive and intolerable. They reflect a nasty and hyperbolic tendency on our political culture, one which makes reasoned discourse impossible, confuses disagreement with evil, and which makes it impossible to distinguish evil from ordinary politics. ... It behooves all participants in the political process to unequivocally disavow the comparison and to make it plain that peddlers of such noxious comparison have no place in our politics, no matter how large their audiences. And all Americans should make plain their disgust at the comparisons by talk show hosts by a prompt use of the off button.”

Another such comparison was made in Pueblo, Colorado, shot by an employee of the Democratic-allied Service Employees International Union, as first reported at Talking Points Memo.

In the video, a spokesman for the groups “Patients First” -- part of the conservative group “Americans for Prosperity” -- describing the health care reform bill as pushing euthanasia for the elderly, which he compares to Hitler’s Final Solution for the Jews.

“When you reach 65 and every five years thereafter you’re going to have to have counseling session with some, um, some federal airhead,” he says.

“Part of this process is called End of Life counseling.” He says, a section of House Bill 3200. “And part of End of Life counseling can be an End of Life order. ’End of Life,’ what’s another word for that? ‘Death.’ ‘Order,’ what’s another word for that? A ‘sentence.’”

He says Josef Stalin, Pol Pot, and Robert Mugabe issued “End of Life” orders -- in their respective genocides.

"Adolf Hitler issued six million end of life orders,” the speaker says. “He called his program the Final Solution. I kind of wonder what we're going to call ours."

In House Resolution 3200, page 425 refers to “advance care planning consultation,” defined as a senior and a medical practitioner discussing “advance care planning, if…the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years.” This includes an “explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to,” an “explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses,” and an “explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.”

It directs the medical provider to give the patients “a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning,” and an explanation “of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title,” as well as “an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders.”

Factcheck.org says the “accepted definition of end-of-life planning means thinking ahead about the care you would like to receive at the end of your life -- which may include the choice to reject extraordinary measures of life support, or the choice to embrace them….the bill would not make these sessions mandatory.”

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/08/jewish-groups-assail-nazi-comparisons-made-by-conservatives-in-health-care-debate.html


Hmmm...Americans for Prosperity.......I seem to remember that name from somewhere.....hmmm....let me think....


Americans for Prosperity (AFP) is a Washington D.C.-based conservative political advocacy group which describes itself on its Web site as "... an organization of grassroots leaders who engage citizens in the name of limited government and free markets on the local, state and federal levels." It was founded in 2004, by David H. Koch of Koch Industries, who in 1984, had also established its predecessor, Citizens for a Sound Economy, from which Americans for Prosperity split in 2003. (Citizens for a Sound Economy rebranded as FreedomWorks.)

Patients United Now
In May 2009, Americans for Prosperity launched Patients United Now, a website self-described as a project offering information for those opposed to what they describe as "a government takeover of the United States health care system."A subsequent series of television ads in opposition to Democratic health care reform proposals was launched under the Patients United Now brand. In one TV ad, a Canadian woman "Shona Holmes" is featured saying she got a runaround for brain tumor surgery and ultimately was treated in the US, although she actually had a benign Rathke's Cleft Cyst on her pituitary gland. Columnist David Lazarus of the Los Angeles Times wrote that a single-payer Canadian style insurance system is not part of any leading reform proposal as the ad suggests.Media Matters for America called the ad "Strong on emotion and weak on facts." Amy Menefee, a spokeswoman for Patients United Now, replied to the criticism saying "The point of the ad is to show the extremes where things could go". "This would be a bigger role for government than we've ever seen. It's a power grab in this area of the economy."

On February 27, 2009, in collaboration with others, the organization sponsored a Dallas-Fort Worth, Texas and Washington, D.C. Tea party protest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_for_Prosperity



Americans for Prosperity is by far the slickest of the astroturf groups organizing disgruntled right-wingers of the "regular folks" variety into shouting mobs at town-hall meetings focused on health-care reform.

Sponsored in the past, according to SourceWatch, by the oil interests of Koch Industries, and a foundation headed by notorious right-wing financier Richard Mellon Scaife, AFP is wedding public fear about health-care reform -- fear it has done its best to stoke -- to a larger agenda embraced by ground-level activists that includes opposition to the cap-and-trade climate bill and Internet neutrality.

Indeed, AFP's exploitation of fears about health-care reform appear to be merely a means to a larger end.

Think these guys are appeased by the administration's talk of dumping the public health insurance option from the health-care reform bills currently working their way through Congress?

Not Your Father's Astroturf

Americans for Prosperity is, perhaps, the brightest and shiniest of the astroturf organizations responsible for the misinformed, disruptive and sometimes dangerous citizens who continue to turn up at town hall meetings conducted by members of Congress over the August recess. All count themselves as members of the Tea Party movement of anti-tax activists.

His activists tour the country in a big, luxury motor coach painted in red, white and blue, sporting the slogan, "Keep Your Hands Off My Health Care!" With its spiffy graphics and tech-savvy persona, the aesthetics of Americans for Prosperity are reminiscent of the Christian Coalition events and materials of the mid-1990s.

That's not surprising, given that AFP President Tim Phillips is a former business partner of Ralph Reed, who, as its executive director, brought the Christian Coalition to national prominence. Phillips and Reed continue to work in tandem.

Although Reed went on to ignominy for his involvement in the Jack Abramoff lobbyist scandal, he is now attempting a comeback with a new organization, the Faith and Freedom Coalition.

While Phillips was the master of ceremonies at the RightOnline event, Reed shared the stage with****Armey at an anti-health-care rally in Atlanta that was co-sponsored by Americans for Prosperity.

Phillips, the AFP president, worked on Armey's political campaigns.

While Fox News has hardly been secretive about its involvement in the anti-health care cause, the reach of its parent company, Rupert Murdoch's News Corp., goes further than the utterances of its pundits over the airwaves, or Beck's 9-12 Project.

The Americans for Prosperity roster of RightOnline conference speakers was heavily populated by those who toil for Murdoch -- fully one-third of the list of 15 -- in addition to two others who have links to Murdoch.

Fox News contributors Michelle Malkin and Jim Pinkerton addressed the crowd, as did columnists John Fund and Stephen Moore of the Wall Street Journal, another News Corp. property. AFP Policy Director Kerpen writes a column for FoxNews.com. Pittsburgh radio host Glen Meakem works for a Clear Channel station whose featured programming includes the Wall Street Journal Report, Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity. Ronald Kessler writes for NewsMax, which was founded by a former reporter for the New York Post, yet another News Corp.entity.

When I asked Phillips about the Fox/Wall Street Journal connection to his organization, he looked surprised.

"We have someone from Fox News?" he asked.

"Well, Fox News Channel contributors," I replied.

"OK. So, they're not on the payroll of Fox News. Do any of those guys get money from Fox News?"

He's asking me? "I don't know if they're paid by Fox," I said, "but I assume that they are. Do you have a partnership with Rupert Murdoch?"

"Not at all, not at all," he replied with a little laugh. "The fact is, the Wall Street Journal's my favorite newspaper; I love those guys. I like what they write. I look at Steve Moore and John Fund, and those are two of the smartest guys. They're also entertaining, in addition to being philosophically sound.

"I don't know if you've read The End of Prosperity, Arthur Laffer and Steve Moore's book; it's one of my favorite books of the last three or four years. I've really found it to be incisive, so I really like those guys. But there's no partnership -- financially, understood, or anything else."

I checked with the Fox News Washington bureau, and indeed Malkin and Pinkerton are paid by Fox, and are branded by the news channel, listed on the "talent" page of its Web site. Fund and Moore are full-time employees of the Wall Street Journal, and AFP's Kerpen has a weekly platform on Fox's well-traveled Web site.

What Murdoch Hath Wrought

In the cable and broadcast spectrum occupied by Fox News Channel and Fox Television, Murdoch operates through a public trust, as do all cable and broadcast outlets.

As much as he hates to share, Murdoch is using the common property of the United States to turn out mobs at town hall events for the purpose of intimidating members of Congress and spreading disinformation about what's in the health care bills.

There's nothing unusual about media properties whose editorial and opinion content reflects the views of the owner. What's new here is Murdoch's use of his media empire as an organizing tool in a campaign designed not only to affect several very particular pieces of legislation, but concocted to "break," in the words of DeMint, a U.S. president.

While Phillips may have been a little shy about his kinship with Murdoch and his minions, the minions themselves were not.

http://www.alternet.org/news/142068/utilizing_public_airwaves,_media_mogul_murdoch_is_big_muscle_behind_fraudulent_astro_turfers/?page=entire


So Swamp's old buddy of note is part of this, and we do remember that person's past......


Phillips and Enron

Century Strategies first big client was Enron--the $60 billion energy company that imploded over-night under shady business operations and fraudulent accounting. From 1997 to 2001 Enron and Century Strategies shared a business relationship.

In 1997, Phillips and Reed were contracted by Enron to mobilize "religious leaders and pro-family groups" to generate support for energy deregulation in Congress and in state assemblies. Phillips and Reed used multiple mediums including advertsing on conservative talk shows, placing op-eds from community leaders in major newspapers, and having major political campaign contributors to press Congress to pass the favourable legislation. It is estimated Enron paid Century Strategies $380,000 for its services.

Phillips and the Northern Mariana Islands

In 1998 Jack Abramoff hired Century Strategies to pressure Congress to vote against legislation that would have made the U.S. commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands subject to U.S. federal wage and worker safety laws. The legislation came as a response to a federal report which found that Chinese women in the Northern Mariana Islands were subjected to forced abortions, as well as forced prostitution in the local sex-tourism industry.

However, in the mail-out campaign Phillips conducted to oppose the legislation, he stated that Chinese workers "are exposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ, [and many] convert to the Christian faith and return to China with Bibles in hand."
Phillips and Nefarious Political Attacks

In 2000 Century Strategies worked on the "Bush for President" campaign. According to the Century Strategies, Phillips "spearheaded the direct mail, telemarketing, coalition building and strategic services" for George W. Bush's campaign against John McCain in the 2000 primaries.

During the primaries, McCain's presidential campaign was unraveled by an anonymous public relations operation that spread false rumours about John McCain and his family. The operation tarnished McCain's reputation by sending leaflets, emails, and telephone calls to South Carolina constituents explaining to them how McCain's adopted child from Bangladesh was really an illegitimate child he fathered with a black woman. McCain's team never uncovered who was behind the campaign.

In 2000, Phillips was also hired by Virginia Senator Stephen Martin to manage a direct mail campaign against Eric Cantor in the Republican primary for a Virginia's congressional seat. It was during this campaign that Tim Phillips set up the Faith and Family Alliance. The Faith and Family Alliance then proceeded to conduct an anti-semitic smear campaign on Eric Cantor--the organization sent out thousands of pamphlets and made phone calls which stated that Cantor did not represent "Virginia values," and that his opponent was the "only Christian in the contest." Phillips claims to have no knowledge this smear campaign.

Tim Phillips is also associated with helping to engineer political victory for Senator Saxby Chambliss during the 2002 senatorial election. During this election, a Chambliss television ad aired which claimed incumbent Democrat Senator Max Cleland was soft on national security by showing images of Osama Bin Laden, and then blasting his voting record on domestic security.

In a 1995 speech at a Christian Coalition conference, Tim Phillips, then a strategist for Rep. Goodlatte, told members of the Christian Coalition that were interested in running for school board positions to use "stealth tactics to find the most 'hard-core' people aligned to conservative values." Phillips recommended inventing a phony polling firm. This false surveying group would then phone residents and ask loaded questions about abortion, homosexuality, and school prayer. Those respondents that gave the most desired responses would be reminded to vote on election day.

http://www.desmogblog.com/tim-phillips


So this excuse for a fellow, Richard Mellon Scaife, David H. Koch, and a whole bunch of people from Murdoch's clan are out there making sure that average Americans are being protected from abuse from government, and their are ready to spend untold millions helping out those lucky people.

God Bless America.....with friends like these, you really don't need enemies.

And while we are at it, let's look at the dittohead commander and chief :


. Now, what are the similarities between the Democrat Party of today and the Nazi Party in Germany? Well, the Nazis were against big business -- they hated big business.



The stormtroopers also carried out terrible acts of violence against socialists and communists. In one incident in Silesia, a young member of the KPD had his eyes poked out with a billiard cue and was then stabbed to death in front of his mother. Four members of the SA were convicted of the rime. Many people were shocked when Hitler sent a letter of support for the four men and promised to do what he could to get them released.

A group of prominent industrialists who feared such a revolution sent a petition to Paul von Hindenburg asking for Hitler to become Chancellor. Hindenberg reluctantly agreed to their request and at the age of forty-three, Hitler became the new Chancellor of Germany.

Incidents such as these worried many Germans, and in the elections that took place in November 1932 the support for the Nazi Party fell. The German Communist Party made substantial gains in the election winning 100 seats. Hitler used this to create a sense of panic by claiming that German was on the verge of a Bolshevik Revolution and only the NSDAP could prevent this happening.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/nsdap.html



By 1930 Thyssen was one of the leading backers of the Nazi Party. The following year he recruited Hjalmar Schacht to the cause and in November, 1932, the two men joined with other industrialists in signing the letter that urged Paul von Hindenburg to appoint Adolf Hitler as chancellor. This was successful and on 20th February, 1933, they arranged a meeting of the Association of German Industrialists that raised 3 million marks for the Nazi Party in the forthcoming election.

Thyssen supported the measures that Hitler took against the left-wing political groups and trade unions. He also put pressure on Hitler to suppress the left of the Nazi Party that resulted in the Night of the Long Knives. However, as a Catholic, Thyssen objected when Hitler began persecuting people for their religious beliefs.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERthyssen.htm


Afraid of a Bolshevik Revolution....attacking socialists....against trade unions......and left wing groups .with big business backing them....wait a dog gone moment, that strangely sounds familiar.....


They were insanely, irrationally against pollution.


As opposed to being insanely and irrationally for it, like in those oil spills Koch Industries were fined for ?

A Nazi like logo, that looks suspiciously like the universally recognized symbol for nursing - the caduceus ?
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 49
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/10/2010 6:54:19 AM
It is worth noting that East Germany was officially called the German Democratic Republic. So what's in a name, really?

Whether Nazi Germany was more righty than lefty or not is, at the end of the day, largely moot. Have some forgotten (or never realized) that the political spectrum is circular, not linear? Ideologies become more similar at the extremes, not more different.

It becomes a matter of choosing which oppressive totalitarianism you prefer. Hopefully that is something we can all agree upon, historical revisionist or not.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 50
view profile
History
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 2/10/2010 8:19:11 AM

Another such comparison was made in Pueblo, Colorado, shot by an employee of the Democratic-allied Service Employees International Union, as first reported at Talking Points Memo.

In the video, a spokesman for the groups “Patients First” -- part of the conservative group “Americans for Prosperity” -- describing the health care reform bill as pushing euthanasia for the elderly, which he compares to Hitler’s Final Solution for the Jews.

“When you reach 65 and every five years thereafter you’re going to have to have counseling session with some, um, some federal airhead,” he says.

“Part of this process is called End of Life counseling.” He says, a section of House Bill 3200. “And part of End of Life counseling can be an End of Life order. ’End of Life,’ what’s another word for that? ‘Death.’ ‘Order,’ what’s another word for that? A ‘sentence.’”

He says Josef Stalin, Pol Pot, and Robert Mugabe issued “End of Life” orders -- in their respective genocides.

"Adolf Hitler issued six million end of life orders,” the speaker says. “He called his program the Final Solution. I kind of wonder what we're going to call ours."


The Patient Self-Determination Act (PSDA) 2.0 ?

That was passed into law with nary a Goodwinian reference to be overheard anywhere on the right, by George Bush.


The Patient Self-Determination Act (PSDA) was passed by the U.S. Congress in 1990 as an amendment to the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990. Effective on December 1, 1991, this legislation required many hospitals, Nursing Homes, home health agencies, hospice providers, HMOs, and other health care institutions to provide information about advance health care directives to adult patients upon their admission to the healthcare facility. This law does not apply to individual doctors.

The requirements of the PSDA are as follows:
* Patients are given written notice upon admission to the health care facility of their decision-making rights, and policies regarding advance health care directives in their state and in the institution to which they have been admitted. Patient rights include:

1. The right to facilitate their own health care decisions
2. The right to accept or refuse medical treatment
3. The right to make an advance health care directive

* Facilities must inquire as to the whether the patient already has an advance health care directive, and make note of this in their medical records.
* Facilities must provide education to their staff and affiliates about advance health care directives.
* Health care provides are not allowed to discriminately admit or treat patients based on whether or not they have an advance health care directive.

Purpose
The purpose of the Patient Self-Determination Act was to inform patients of their rights regarding decisions toward their own medical care, and ensure that these rights are communicated by the health care provider. Specifically, the rights ensured are those of the patient to dictate their future care (by means such as living will or power of attorney), should they become incapacitated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Self-Determination_Act


Versus :

H.R. 3200, page 425: Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:

(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.

(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.

(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.

(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning … .

(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.

(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders … .


So this "first step" on the road to euthanasia was indeed taken by a Republican President, roughly twenty years ago. Far from trying to get patients to kill themselves under state encouragement, it was a much needed solution to the problems both health providers and patients were facing when the patient was unable to direct their own healthcare decisions. It helped to ensure that patients were cared for in the manner they wanted to be cared for, and that included the ability to accept or deny heroic measures as the patient saw fit.

It help to remove the confusion, and reduced the need for lawsuits or unwanted vegetative prolonged (and expensive) medical care when there was no hope - and (and only when) that was something not desired by the patient.

Where was Limbaugh when George Bush, while Governor of Texas, enacted the Futile Care Law ?


Note that Texas is one of the few states with a timetable allowing hospitals to decide when to end life support. Under existing law, the family is guaranteed only two days before the hospital ethics committee meeting then 10 days before the termination of treatment -- a total of 12 days, unless a court intervenes.

May 25, 2007
Futile Care Law Dies
Topics: Futile Care Laws

The bill that would modified the Texas Care Law has itself been declared futile:

A proposal to extend the time for medically futile patients before a hospital can cut off their life support has died in the Texas House, a victim of legislative deadlines and backroom disputes.

The legislation, already approved in the Senate, had been scheduled to be voted on in the House on Tuesday. However, it never came up for debate before a midnight deadline set for the passage of certain bills.

"It's dead -- dead for now," Rep. Dianne White Delisi, a Temple Republican who sponsored the measure, said Wednesday. She said the comprehensive proposal needed more time for debate than was available before the House gavel fell for the night.

Why you ask? Wesley Smith suggests an astonishing answer:

The "good" bill, which would have required hospitals to maintain treatment pending a transfer to another hospital would have breezed to passage, and in the process given a body blow to Futile Care Theory. Then, inexplicably, the Catholic Bishops (I believe at the behest of the organization representing Catholic hospitals) opposed the bill and threw its considerable heft behind a bill extending the 10-day cut off to 21-days.

http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2007/05/futile_care_law.php




HOUSTON -
If it had been up to her doctors, the Houston hospital where she was treated and the laws of the state of Texas, Kalilah Roberson-Reese would bedead by now.

Instead, the severely brain-damaged 29-year-old woman is being cared for in a Lubbock nursing home, where she’s become a focal point in a growing struggle over a controversial Texas law that permits hospitals to withdraw life support from patients whose conditions they deem hopeless – even if family members object.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2006/sep/17/news/chi-0609170386sep17


And Texans are right out there hopping on that astroturf chuck wagon in large numbers...... in a state where the government has made it legal for the hospitals there to give a patient a two day window before they meet to start deciding their fate unilaterally, and ten more days before they do it - unless someone takes them to court to stop them.

http://taxdayteaparty.com/teaparty/texas/

Again, those with the most to gain allow themselves to be mislead and to act against their own best interests thanks to dogmatic front men for corporations misinforming them of what's actually going on.
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