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 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 9
A universe driven by probabilityPage 2 of 2    (1, 2)

A lot in the physical world doesn't "make sense" in terms of what we'd expected. As I was saying, I read that the evidence has been piling up in favor of the universe being infinite.


Can you cite a source?
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 10
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A universe driven by probability
Posted: 2/25/2010 10:57:37 AM
A better title to your question would be, " Is the Universe Random ? "

There are basically 2 types of randomness.
True randomness and conditional randomness.

In true randomness, anything can happen.
Conditional randomness, is more like chaos but only within certain conditions.

The lottery is a type of conditional randomness.
The only numbers which can ever be picked in the lottery, are those within the boundary of the numbers available.

If the lottery were truly random then any number could come up, even one outside the boundary of those numbers available. Or, a monkey or a turtle.

So, is the universe truly random where literally anything can happen ?
Or, is the universe conditionally random where only certain things can happen within a fixed set of rules ?

If the universe has rules, then that means that all the possibilities of everything was set at the moment of the " Big Bang ".
That means everything can be predicted, even the lottery.

If the universe has no rules, then all bets are off.
Nothing can be predicted.
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 11
A universe driven by probability
Posted: 2/25/2010 4:05:40 PM
Kind of like people huh?
 artist_48
Joined: 1/27/2009
Msg: 12
A universe driven by probability
Posted: 2/25/2010 7:30:16 PM
"Of course, all matter would likely become degenerate over time. However, if there can be an increase in improbable events over extremely long time, might that include the switching over from "degenerate" to "regenerate" matter. Would this mark a new "start" point?"

I want some help on this fellas, but I need to understand something first.

The only thing I can equate this to is particulate matter (in earth's atmosphere).
As particulate matter is absorbed (changed) it reaches a point where the particle layer changes from cooling to heating resulting in scattering of sunlight caused by an increase in the amount of light reflected back, etc. Does this also happen in space ( not deep space apparently due to lack of light?)
Thanks- this will allow me to continue thinking on this topic.

Other thought(s); The only matter that regenerates that I can think of is plant and animal matter. Elements such as gases can alter there states and reform, but is this actually regenerating as you mean it?
 sum1reel
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 13
A universe driven by probability
Posted: 2/26/2010 2:58:43 PM
@Kinky



Infinity has NO place in Physics,


this is an excerpt i took from another poster in the 'edge of space" thread (msg #38) where he says:

"infinity tends to be a number you end up with when you measure things with a tool of lesser dimension than the object has."

And it makes sense to me because we don't know the totality of the universe...and if we had the capabilities to acknowledge these other dimensions i'm sure we'd unravel a good many secrets!.



unless one is compelled to use it do dirty tricks


which is basically the main way that physicists are trying to 1-up one-another!....i mean, look at it like this....we figure out that there is a whole lotta matter missing in the universe (perhaps!), and then somebody conjures up 'dark" matter.....its like, well we can't see it, and we can't detect it...BUT its there cause we say it should be there!!!!



Even though it works LOL!


Ahhh, the fudge-factor!
 Devourer of Memes
Joined: 9/6/2008
Msg: 14
A universe driven by probability
Posted: 2/26/2010 10:21:44 PM
@ stargazer1000: I believe the universe is driven by the probability of all possible states matter can exist in, but I think the possible states have tangible boundaries. For example, the big bang singularity is a boundary of ever increasing density and heat the closer and closer we move backwards in time the less possible states that can exist as you approach the singularity of the big bang. On the flip side as we move forward in time and the universe expands while density of matter decreases you have an increase in the possible states that the universe can exist in, which allows for more complex structures like galaxies and planetary systems. I also believe time is finite and will end at the state of absolute zero when perfectly flat space is reached and becomes what is know as the Bose-Einstein Condensate. As we approach absolute zero the set of all possible states begins to decrease rapidly just as when time is moved backwards towards the big bang. I'll stop here for now, but basically I'm agreeing with you stargazer, however I believe the probability can only be one of the possible states matter can arrange itself within set boundaries of time.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 15
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A universe driven by probability
Posted: 2/27/2010 4:31:10 PM

And that phrase struck me. "Lifetime of the universe." So then, if we can accept that the universe will have an infinite lifetime, then does increased time mean the potential for increasingly improbable occurrences?
Of course. But only improbable occurrences. Not impossible ones.

Of course, all matter would likely become degenerate over time. However, if there can be an increase in improbable events over extremely long time, might that include the switching over from "degenerate" to "regenerate" matter. Would this mark a new "start" point?
The Second Law says that everything tends to an equilibrium with more entropy, and consequently, less free energy, and that requires a more uniform energy distribution. So with more time, matter spreads into more a uniform distribution, and eventually the energy in mass equally spreads into a more uniform distribution. So even with infinite time, all we would get would be greater degeneration of matter into a completely uniform energy distribution across the entire universe, at which point, there is nothing to "regenerate" matter.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 16
A universe driven by probability
Posted: 2/27/2010 9:03:37 PM
The universe is a self-similar, chaotic fractal. I'm absolutely convinced of that and have predicated much of what I do now on that hypothesis. Fortunately, I'm not the only guy who feels that way; I came across this vid today:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8950549020166531913#
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 17
A universe driven by probability
Posted: 2/28/2010 9:48:59 AM
Wow. There is actually quite a bit of info on the subject of fractals in science and math.
I even found an M.I.T. video from 2001~ Cool stuff dude! I think even Plato said someting about roughness. This dude on one vid explained roughness as a far more complicated and difficult science.
 Devourer of Memes
Joined: 9/6/2008
Msg: 18
A universe driven by probability
Posted: 2/28/2010 5:49:46 PM
Random aggregation and the disordered geometric configurations demonstrate that fundamentally random microscopic processes can give rise to predictable macroscopic behaviors. No reason you can't have probabilistic reality of the universe creating self-similar, chaotic fractals. However, the fractal is a product of probability.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 19
A universe driven by probability
Posted: 2/28/2010 5:50:13 PM

The universe is a self-similar, chaotic fractal. I'm absolutely convinced of that and have predicated much of what I do now on that hypothesis. Fortunately, I'm not the only guy who feels that way; I came across this vid today:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree also. I have seen a lot of evidence and read a few articles investigating the idea. Actually I think it goes further than just the universe and has far reaching implications.


Great vid, Dukky! Although, my computer kept sputtering, and missed a bit about the involvement of proteins...

I have also alway s been against the Law of Determinism, with its purport that everything can be predicted, provided enough information is supplied. I think it leaves out the random variable, that can lead to an improbable occurrence...
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