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 monalee1
Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 87
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?Page 3 of 26    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26)
hi.. Desertrhino, I keep getting booted from answering all you guys... seriously, lets take it to personal email and if you want to come back to quote me great... and I can answer everything that you wrote, I want to make that part clear and God Teaches His Diligent Students what to take literally or not, just saying... blessings
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 88
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/23/2010 10:26:27 PM
Tell ya what...keep the Creationism out of the science classrooms and evolutionary biologists won't bust down the doors to Sunday school. Fair enough?
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 89
view profile
History
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/24/2010 3:30:55 PM

Um.. Sorry, but when the bible teaches that the earth is flat and that the earth is the center of the universe, science is indeed in conflict with religion. It is in conflict because it is proving religion wrong.

Where in the Bible does it say the earth is flat and is the center of the universe? I'm not familiar with those passages.

The Bible is a religious text. It is not a science or history book, although some of the events in it are certainly historical. Science is about studying the observable and verifiable. Nothing but the facts, ma'am. Religion is about values and faith. It's like animals and vegetables - they are entirely different things. It's a mistake to confuse one for the other and to expect them to be in complete agreement with each other because they are treating entirely different subjects. There are places where they overlap, but they generally cover different areas.

There is conflict only when religious people do not use their rational minds and insist that religion is science. And when scientists insist on arguing with religious people about matters of faith.
 monalee1
Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 92
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/24/2010 6:09:29 PM
"Tell ya what...keep the Creationism out of the science classrooms and evolutionary biologists won't bust down the doors to Sunday school. Fair enough?"

.. this is where Legitimate Religion is in conflict with man made religion>> Gods Chosen Day of Worship in the bible is Saturday not sunday.... the real conflict will always be Truth vs counterfeit... blessings
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 93
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/24/2010 7:09:04 PM

I think the fair question is whether any legitimate religion is in conflict with legitimate science. The answer seems to be "no".


Did you miss Kitzmiller v Dover? They attempted to force creationism into a science curriculum and, in the process, violated parsimony at every turn.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 95
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/24/2010 10:43:36 PM

Faith and empirical investigation can co-exist, in their own epistemological realms. It's only when one decides to delve, or encroach, on territory where it does not belong, that we get conflict.

This has been described in so many different ways, some serious, some tongue in cheek, ...but this one is very straight forward and concise.

Still, there are some who won't grok it.
 Bible Thumper
Joined: 1/11/2010
Msg: 96
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 8:19:24 AM
Legitimate science = natural truth. True religion = spiritual truth. The good book says we need both Spirit and Truth. They are like the two oars of a rowboat. If you only row with one of them you will just go around in circles.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 98
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 9:14:09 AM

I don't think "science" is concerned with religion. Religion however, annoyed and somewhat distressed by the results of scientific methodology, are very concerned with IT.

That's probably because a scientist has to get used to the idea that facts take precedence over beliefs. Lots of people don't like to do that because it requires thinking.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 99
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 9:22:34 AM

Legitimate science = natural truth. True religion = spiritual truth. The good book says we need both Spirit and Truth. They are like the two oars of a rowboat. If you only row with one of them you will just go around in circles.

Which good book? Lord of the Rings? That was a very good book, but I don't remember it talking about spiritual things until the 3rd book with the witch king.


Anyway.. No bible, it doesn't work that way. Mere speculation does not have as much ground to speak on as legitimate science does. Stop forcing your speculation on others.
 Bible Thumper
Joined: 1/11/2010
Msg: 100
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 11:53:18 AM
Which good book? ... the Bible of course.

Anyway... No verzen, it's not speculation when I've seen faith in Jesus change thousands of lives for the good. Stop forcing your lies on others.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 101
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 12:19:41 PM

Anyway... No verzen, it's not speculation when I've seen faith in Jesus change thousands of lives for the good. Stop forcing your lies on others.


How do you know it wasn't an archetypical construction of the mind, that changed their lives?
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 102
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 12:24:42 PM

No verzen, it's not speculation when I've seen faith in Jesus change thousands of lives for the good. Stop forcing your lies on others.


And I'm sure I can find a few who will say it was Vishnu. Others who will say it was L. Ron Hubbard. Still others who will say it was Flying Spaghetti Monster. Even a few who will give props to Satan.
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 103
view profile
History
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 1:00:45 PM

And I'm sure I can find a few who will say it was Vishnu. Others who will say it was L. Ron Hubbard. Still others who will say it was Flying Spaghetti Monster. Even a few who will give props to Satan.

Very true. And all the while that they give credit to some fictional being, they will fail to acknowledge that it was their own strength and conviction that enabled their change. Why not take the credit for their own accomplishments?

It always made me laugh how when people do bad things, they are blamed for it, and when people do good things, they give credit to [insert ridiculous supernatural being they happen to believe in here].
 andybenandy
Joined: 3/14/2010
Msg: 106
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 5:33:56 PM
Of course science is in conflict with religion : religion says everything is from God while science says for every act there is a cause . Religion does not believe in free will at all . we all know that we have both free will and no free will sometimes depending on the circumstances .
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 107
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 6:37:48 PM
One of the problems was that the people involved didn't understand either ID or evolution while Kitzmiller and crew were well informed, so the former got savaged on cross examination while the latter survived.

The one and only problem with ID is that it fails to meet the criteria of a scientific theory. Scientific theories have a set of well-defined premises. From the premises one may then make predictions and then look for evidence that supports or falsifies the theory. If the evidence is found as predicted, the theory is only considered to be consistent with the evidence. If the evidence contradicts the theory, one or more of the premises must be wrong. (Scientific theories can never be proven true, only falsified.)

Since the existence of an intelligent creator is one premise of ID, ID must be able to make predictions that depend on the existence of a creator such that if the evidence disagrees with such a prediction, the premise of an intelligent creator must be false. Similarly, if the evidence were to agree with the predictions of ID, the most ID could claim is that an intelligent creator is consistent with the evidence. If the proponents of ID were to state the theory such that it would be possible to falsify the existence of an intelligent creator and accept the fact that scientific theories cannot be proven to be true, it would indeed be a scientific theory. As you might imagine, no one promoting ID is going to agree to pose the theory in a scientific way and take the chance that their own theory could falsify the premise of an intelligent creator through its own predictions.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 109
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 6:51:23 PM
I am still learning and trying to understand but in the world of fractals, the madlebrot is referred by reputable scientists as the thumbprint of god and I am leaning that way. My gut feeling seems to go towards the fact that we are all somehow connected by an infinitaley small organic structure that to my understanding is infinitaley complex and yet so simple to grasp the concept.

I wouldn't get that carried away. The Mandelbrot set is just a set of points obtained by the iterative sequence, in the complex plane, z_n+1 - (z_n)^2 + k, where the z_n are complex numbers (i.e. of the form a + ib) and where k is some arbitrary constant such that the sequence is bounded. The reason it draws so much attention is because mathematicians were suprised that such a simple sequence has such a remarkably rich structure.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 111
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 8:00:49 PM
Anna! *throws confetti*

Enjoy your moment, because many people may possibly relate!

I do...

I attended this lecture two weeks ago, on tensegrity.

Fractals within the fascia system...it was amazing...when you said this:


Our internal organs are fractals. Our lungs is the best example that I can think of and also our brain not only looks like a fractal just by looking at it but all its connections, powered with energy that is like electricity is done in what I understand to be in a fractal way.


It made me think of (squeamish people, refrain from reading) the video we watched, where we observed cadavers examined sans skeletal, muscle, circulatory system and viscera. It was amazing...if one pulls on the slightest edge of an engaged fascial structure, the whole is moved...this is not found to this degree, when applied to the other structures of the body...it is wow...

I wish I could articulate this better...

Tensegrity...tension combined with integrity of structure (...arrangement).

Okay.

Back to topic...

Anyway religion is, according to Merriam-Webster:


1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
— re·li·gion·less adjective
~Merriam-Webster

I have always turned the knob to door number four...
 monalee1
Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 112
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 8:04:41 PM
"How do you know it wasn't an archetypical construction of the mind, that changed their lives?"

.. the same way that I know that I gave birth to my child .. it is a real personal experience ... a True connection with God, Christ and Gods Spirit is so profound that there is no mistaking it .. there is hardly a way to describe it to someone who has not had the experience yet but it is all too amazing to keep quiet about as well .... blessings
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 113
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 8:21:49 PM

.. the same way that I know that I gave birth to my child


Your child is a real entity, others can experience your child whether or not they also experience your deity, ...a deity for one is just a delusion to another, the comparison is specious.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 115
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 10:04:57 PM

Anyway, a lady in the movie had an imaginary child that she believed was "real." Yah, I know ... wierd, huh?

There was a movie similar to this. I don't remember the name right off, but she thought her child was with her. She fell asleep, woke up (on a plane) and her child was gone. No one knew a child was with her and every flight attendant states that she boarded the plane with no child. She eventually got the message that her child died with her husband in a car crash. Later come to find out, the entire flight crew was in on a kidnapping of this ladies child and came up with the whole story in order to kidnap this child. Very interesting movie.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 116
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 10:32:12 PM
Flightplan. The movie was Flightplan.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 117
view profile
History
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/25/2010 11:00:57 PM
science, religion, other metaphysical, and all of our opinions, have to line up some day, or one, or some, or all of them are false.


http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c017.html
for those who care, otherwise forget it.

more opinions, I know.
 Bible Thumper
Joined: 1/11/2010
Msg: 119
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/26/2010 7:11:20 AM
So we are being told that if we throw pieces of a watch in the air enough times, eventually they will all come together, and that proves evolution is true. This is the kind of specious speculation that makes otherwise intelligent people look like fools. This is fantasy land material. First of all, evolution has no answer for where the atoms came from in the first place, other than to say that nothing exploded and created everything. If you believe this, you've got enough blind faith to create your OWN religion. Who is supposed to have created the pieces of the watch in the first place??? Secondly, the pieces of watch would destroy each other by clashing together long before anything could fit together. Ever hear of the law of entropy increase? Thirdly, where are all of the partially made watches in rock strata? You know ... the ones that had the hour hand longer than the minute hand and were therefore rejected by the gods of evolution. They should be all over the place. What a laughable joke. There should be millions of graduated watch fragments of watches in various degrees of becoming full blown watches, among the dinosaur bones, according to this kind of logic. Those who believe this kind of stuff and the other imaginary unprovable harebrained ideas related to evolution, already have their religion. And guess what ... it really DOES contradict legitimate science. Every thing from watches to apple pie must have a creator. If scientific logic or at least, common sense, does not convince you of that, get help. Or perhaps we can just throw you into the air several times until you finally come down in your right mind.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 120
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/26/2010 7:26:24 AM
So we are being told that if we throw pieces of a watch in the air enough times, eventually they will all come together, and that proves evolution is true.

Nope, it's a common straw man fallacy amongst the creationist/ID gang. Please, can you cite a single example of an evolutionary biologist who has used this (blatantly false) analogy?

This is the kind of specious speculation that makes otherwise intelligent people look like fools.

Again, I only hear this specious analogy coming from one foolish source, ...proponents of C/ID. Do you have a cite from an intelligent source and not a delusional one?

This is fantasy land material.

I very much concur, as is almost every single argument coming from the C/ID camp.

First of all, evolution has no answer for where the atoms came from in the first place, other than to say that nothing exploded and created everything.

Wrong again, ...you've wandered out of the purview of evolutionary biology.

Ever hear of the law of entropy increase? Thirdly, where are all of the partially made watches in rock strata? You know ... the ones that had the hour hand longer than the minute hand and were therefore rejected by the gods of evolution. They should be all over the place. What a laughable joke. There should be millions of graduated watch fragments of watches in various degrees of becoming full blown watches, among the dinosaur bones, according to this kind of logic.

Here comes the non sequiturs, the floodgates are open, ...gee, you could set your watch by this phenomena. Yeah, it is a bunch of nonsense, ....so, ...gotta' scientific, non C/ID delusion cite for it?

Those who believe this kind of stuff and the other imaginary unprovable harebrained ideas related to evolution, already have their religion. And guess what ... it really DOES contradict legitimate science.

Oh, ...the irony


Every thing from watches to apple pie must have a creator



If scientific logic or at least, common sense, does not convince you of that, get help. Or perhaps we can just throw you into the air several times until you finally come down in your right mind.

Ahhhh, this explains much, ...I always wondered whether C/ID proponents got that way from being dropped on their heads a lot. Thanks for clearing that up.
 The Black wolf
Joined: 4/7/2008
Msg: 123
Is Legitimate Science in Conflict with Religion?
Posted: 3/26/2010 2:28:47 PM
Science is what we use to study and proof what is out there what is real what is not Religion is started by a group of people woship a god or gods such as angels,god the devil even the virgin mary wich we know that Science tells us a woman can not get prego with out spearm from a male. so this has alway been a conflict between the bouth .
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