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 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 19
Canadian Government Muzzles its ScientistsPage 2 of 2    (1, 2)

If a massive meteor landed somewhere in Canada, journalists here would have to contact scientists elsewhere in the world to comment on it.


I would ask if you have specific examples of this. While Harper has definitely gone all "Dick Cheney" on us, I would tend to disagree because there are going to be experts in the field and they are not going to easily be muzzled by the PMO's office just because it says so. It would take a helluva lot more pull on a University's purse strings than the federal government has to truly muzzle scientists and, besides, results of their research is usually published in peer-reviewed publications and so becomes a matter of public record.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 20
Canadian Government Muzzles its Scientists
Posted: 3/24/2010 8:09:15 AM

there really isn't a more inviting alternative for Canadians (there's no party right now that can unite moderate left/right).

It's not an ideal situation, but let's be realistic here.


So why don't we chuck the entire system and let the people of Canada vote to disband the current de facto corporate monarchy, replacing it with a de jure republic of the sovereign people of Canada?
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 21
Canadian Government Muzzles its Scientists
Posted: 3/24/2010 9:47:22 AM

The inner circles of each party have the real power.

False. The power was unlawfully usurped from the people of Canada; That's why our government is de facto. We can create our own de jure government by rejecting the corporate de facto government of Canada in a plebescite. If the majority of the Canadian sign it, the parliament of Canada will lose ALL semblance of legitimacy. It will become a government without a country to govern and the people of Canada will be free to replace it with anything they want. I recommend a FULLY TRANSPARENT republic based on common law (pitch the crooked statutes -- they were mostly designed to serve the elite power brokers anyway), where our public servants are just that... SERVANTS, not masters...FOLLOWERS of the public will, not "leaders" that falsely claim to "represent" it.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 22
Canadian Government Muzzles its Scientists
Posted: 3/24/2010 10:29:29 AM

What you purpose is mass scale rebellion. Never going to happen, and if it did, it would destabilize the country..

What are they doing to Iceland?...Nothing! That's what they'll do to us. The "rebellion" will be a peaceful transition of power from the existing elite to the people. As far as I'm concerned, anybody that crosses our borders with the intent of doing to us what was done to Haiti many decades ago can expect to get shot at by a very determined populace of a country bent on governing its own affairs.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 23
Canadian Government Muzzles its Scientists
Posted: 3/24/2010 10:41:33 AM

So why don't we chuck the entire system and let the people of Canada vote to disband the current de facto corporate monarchy, replacing it with a de jure republic of the sovereign people of Canada?


Because the day after the rebellion, people would be b!tching about the problems of the new government and how it is inadequate, corrupt, power hungry, etc.

You want to see problems with republics? Look south.
 andybenandy
Joined: 3/14/2010
Msg: 24
Canadian Government Muzzles its Scientists
Posted: 3/24/2010 1:19:36 PM

So why don't we chuck the entire system and let the people of Canada vote to disband the current de facto corporate monarchy, replacing it with a de jure republic of the sovereign people of Canada?


Because the day after the rebellion, people would be b!tching about the problems of the new government and how it is inadequate, corrupt, power hungry, etc.

You want to see problems with republics? Look south.

Monarchy is just a waste of money and it puts one family above the other families .
In 2010 to have a monarchy anywhere in the world is a pure madness .
It is time for all monarchies around the globe to disrepute and leave room from some real democracy ruled by republics . Corrupt republics ?. Well the whole damn world is corrupt......!!!!.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 25
Canadian Government Muzzles its Scientists
Posted: 3/25/2010 7:50:28 AM

the day after the rebellion, people would be b!tching about the problems of the new government

What new government? It doesn't have to be representational democracy. The only things required would be a competent judiciary to deal with criminals and civil servants to administer our affairs the way WE want it done. The people of Canada should be the MASTERS of government, not its SERVANTS.
 yna6
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 26
Canadian Government Muzzles its Scientists
Posted: 3/26/2010 6:32:23 PM
We lost our "mastery" of gov't when we allowed the corporations to use our social insurance numbers as identification. The "civil masters" we now employ are entrenched and nothing short of a rebellion would move them out.
Small example...the smuggling of cigs from reservations was getting to the point where Ottawa was noticing a decrease in tax revenue. When truckers brought full loads in to sell in parking lots and advertised it by posters and word of mouth, nobody got busted. The gov't realized it was beaten by the will of the public. They dropped a lot of the tax on cigs. Of course a vocal minoprity pitched a b*tch about it all, and it wasn't too long before taxes went right back up...and again, we see a smuggling problem.
Yes...gov't still listens to the people...as long as enough of them congregate and protest.
But....apathy by Canadians is a huge problem. Which is just fine by gov't standards. If you are too busy working two jobs and trying to raise a family to be bothered by "issues" that have little affect on you personally, you are less likely to get out there and actually voice your opinion. Corporate Canada is right there helping the gov't out...longer hours, less benefits, wages not staying in line with cost of living increases...you name it...."Keep their noses to the grindstone and never let them look up!" "Keep 'em hungry...but not starving..."
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 27
view profile
History
Canadian Government Muzzles its Scientists
Posted: 3/26/2010 9:45:45 PM
there was an article out just the other day, that was saying that almost all scientists work for money some how, and its a major problem, as far as being influenced.

what I mean is that scientist are hardly ever independent.
always some kind of axe to grind.
 GGarbo
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 28
Canadian Government Muzzles its Scientists
Posted: 3/29/2010 4:33:06 PM
Most companies have policies in regards to speaking to the media so an opinion which reflects company opinion can be expressed rather than an individual. There are whistle blower policies though, even in the government, to protect Canadian society.

If you do your research, you'll find that government employees can not be fired for making public statements if they feel there is a safety issue which could harm people.

I don't think this is an issue of restricting free speech so much as an example of how cumbersome centralization can become to those stuck in it. Policy is dictated at by a central entity which doesn't necessarily meet regional needs. I don't think this is a conspiracy just very very bad business practice.

You can't solve problems if you have no control to solve them. It's likely that lack of control scientists are more upset about than policy.

They should be upset too. Putting all your eggs in one basket is a big mistake from any perspective. I think alot of these problems would be solved if we gave provinces back their power to make their own decisions and not reliant on the slow gears of Ottawa to do so.

Centralization of your resources leads to waste and unproductivity. If you want a great example of what happens when you centralize resources, take away power, and dictate policy...look at First Nation people.
 LeCutter
Joined: 2/25/2009
Msg: 29
Canadian Government Muzzles its Scientists
Posted: 3/31/2010 8:24:45 PM

No, it's worse for scientists in fields where a lot of money might be made for research that has immidiate practical use. The Bayh-Dole act allows patent rights from research that was paid for with tax money (whether the research is done at universities, or anywhere else) to be sold to private companies for exclusive use in manufacturing products that are then sold to the public. In other words, private corporations enjoy the same monopoly on licensing , trade secrets laws and other intellectual propery rights for publicly funded research that prior to the Bayh-Dole act could only be obtained by companies doing their own research and inventing something themselves. Taxpayers get charged twice, once for funding the research and the second time through monopoly pricing.


That's the sickest part of it. And it's the reason so many taxpayers - myself included - are against public money going toward research or programs like NASA when said research just ends up in private hands and we have to pay for it. If the research is done with tax-dollars it belongs to the public, plain and simple. If you disagree, form a company and look for private investment.

The conservative government is doing nothing new here. It's the purview of conservative governments everywhere that the sciene should support their platform or not be funded at all. Just look at how Dubya raped the NSA. They'll be a long time recovering, if ever.
 andybenandy
Joined: 3/14/2010
Msg: 30
Canadian Government Muzzles its Scientists
Posted: 4/4/2010 5:26:51 PM
The governments' contracts are huge issues since there is too much corruption around the world vis à vis who gets the contract and who does not . In many countries, unless you pay big bribes, you can not have a business contract . Oops...I thought the people have a say in their government affairs..........how wrong I was !!!.
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 31
Canadian Government Muzzles its Scientists
Posted: 6/16/2010 7:32:56 AM
How many of the people posting on here to complain about how corrupt or tyrannical governments are, have done ANYTHING to overthrow or replace the government they are complaining about?

(Yeah, I hear crickets chirping too...thought so.)
 itsallinthesoul
Joined: 6/26/2009
Msg: 32
Canadian Government Muzzles its Scientists
Posted: 6/16/2010 11:17:18 AM
I'm not surprised to hear that Harper is applying another muzzle. While I understand the whole need to "control the message", I am fairly sure I'm not living in a communist country....or am I? Transparency in government would be a nice thing but I'm not holding my breath waiting for it.

Science scares some people...always has and probably always will. It boils down to human nature I expect....we don't want to know that something we have been doing or thinking is wrong because we don't adapt well to change. I believe when it comes to government policy, that is especially true because they want to stay in power...that is their true goal. The interests of the few will always outweigh the interests of the many especially when money and power are involved.

Canadians are too apathetic when it comes to their own governance, that is very true. While I applaude Dukky's suggestion, I am too much of a realistic on this issue to think that Canadians will ever get unified on this issue. Such a radical change would surely destabilize our economy and that would be a tough pill to take for as long as it would take to stabilize it again.

I do like the suggestion of electing independents rather than a member of a party. ~wonders how we would determine who was PM if every single riding across Canada elected an independent~

I also do think that without political parties, getting things accomplished would take even longer than they do now. The Conservatives have really managed to bog down many organizations seeking funding from the feds. In the Non-Profit sector, a Conservative gov't is the worst thing we can have because they can't/won't make decisions in a timely fashion with respect to funding.
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