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 AUTHOR
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 120
A great day for AmericaPage 3 of 17    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17)

The poor in this country pay an average of 50% of their income in taxes each year, where the rich, hiding behind corporations and tax shelters pay much less than 20%.

Uh, no. All you have to do is look at that chart at the back of your tax booklet to see you are wrong. Completely and utterly wrong.
 valenciacityx
Joined: 3/10/2009
Msg: 121
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 8:43:41 AM
"The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone poll, taken Friday and Saturday nights, shows that 41% of likely voters favor the health care plan. Fifty-four percent (54%) are opposed. These figures have barely budged in recent months. Seventy-four percent (74%) of Democrats favor the plan, while 87% of Republicans are opposed. As for those not affiliated with either major party, 34% are in favor, and 59% are opposed
"

And how many of those have read the 2076 page behemouth? Published with a 72 hour window before the vote deadline... I am betting that you legislator didnt read its entirity....
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 123
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 9:16:04 AM

The poor in this country pay an average of 50% of their income in taxes each year, where the rich, hiding behind corporations and tax shelters pay much less than 20%.


Uh, no. All you have to do is look at that chart at the back of your tax booklet to see you are wrong. Completely and utterly wrong.

Thanks for pointing out that misconception. Right there in black and white it shows that the most that any person considered "poor" only pays 10-15% of their income to Feds. Conversely, those considered "middle class" can pay twice as much to the Feds. The corporate tax rate is 15% only if their income was less than $50,000. Any more than that and the rate is between 25-35%.

Also, anyone who wants to take advantage of the tax breaks that corporations have, they can just start their own corporation. Anyone can do it so long as they file the required paperwork each year so it was another misnomer when it was implied that only the rich can leverage having a corporation or a tax shelter.

The great thing about this country is that everyone has the opportunity to be profitable. Today no one can stop you from owning your own business because of sex, religion, race or political affiliation. The sad thing about this country is that so few people (especially naturally born Americans) take advantage of this opportunity.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 124
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 9:16:10 AM
Over thirty million Americans get coverage, and that's roughly the population of Canada - and that makes America healthier. You cannot lose coverage, thanks to pre-existing conditions. That also makes America healthier. Less Americans will probably die over time - and live longer lives potentially.

If a foreign terrorist kills Americans, it's front page news. If neglect kills them, it's another day at the office. There is no doubt that far more Americans have died from this than any foreign threat.

A billion dollar bomber is OK, and so is a trillion dollar unneeded foreign war. Dollars were easily spent then, and those went to corporate pockets - and foreign ones.

Money spent on American health is a compassionate act, and an investment. It's American money for America.

This is the first step in that direction, imperfect as it is.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 126
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 9:26:07 AM

Obama asked his audience for a show of hands from people with employer-provided coverage, what most Americans have.
"Your employer, it's estimated, would see premiums fall by as much as 3,000 percent," said the president, "which means they could give you a raise."

A White House press spokesman later said the president misspoke; he had meant to say annual premiums would drop by $3,000.


A good idea to research your citations, generally.
 Helen0426
Joined: 6/2/2009
Msg: 128
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 9:43:03 AM

How many oppose the Bill because it does not have Single Pay or Public Option?
Why don't they break that down?


CNN does break down this much-misquoted poll, thusly:

Health Care Legislation
Favor: 39%
Does Too Much: 43%
Doesn't Do Enough: 13%

Which makes the results look very different. Republicans opposed to the bill are claiming that 13% as their own in the court of public opinion when in fact the 13% are in polar opposition to their agenda. I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that most of that 13% are probably supporters of a single-payer system, though that question wasn't asked so we can't know for certain.
 Got Trance
Joined: 5/23/2007
Msg: 129
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 9:45:01 AM
Release the Lawyers, let the lawsuits begin!!!!!!!
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 130
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 9:52:52 AM

Release the Lawyers, let the lawsuits begin!!!!!!!

Which brings up yet another really good question about all of these changes; who the h3ll is talking about tort reform in all of this?
 readyfornow
Joined: 5/15/2009
Msg: 136
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 10:48:24 AM
The majority of the American people didn't want this. The majority of the states didn't want this. What is it don't these legislators understand? The state lawsuits are going to tie this BS up in the courts for years to come. The mid-term elections are going to be very interesting; lots of "personnel changes" are going to take place.
 readyfornow
Joined: 5/15/2009
Msg: 141
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 11:17:55 AM
Apples and oranges. Apples and oranges. Apples and oranges.
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 150
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 2:35:35 PM
The above statements are typical of left wing arrogance,snobbery and presumption...IMO....what i find amusing in all of this is the nonsense that the rich are going to get theirs....the rich have theirs and they own yours...and you,little man,little woman that has been duped by the wealthy who have used your own greed and covetousness aginst you to great effect...you rant and rave about the evil rich,any of you know how much Pelosi is worth ? Obama ? or any of your heroes who have fooled you into giving them power in exchange for nothing

The country is nothing without wealth to drive it and sustain,most of you produce nothing other than paperwork and have no clue about real wealth,your country does not make anything anymore,your country is dependant on other nations for everything,your country is broke and must be propped up financialy everyday by countries like China,if this support goes away ,and it will,you will be poor and destitute and will mow rich people's lawns for sandwiches...a rich man said once that the best thing about the poor was that if they get out of line you can always pay one half to kill the other half....so enjoy your little time of thinking you are sticking it to the man....the man is going to stick it to you..the man you work for...the man who owns your house,your car and all of your little toys....and the man who now owns you.
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 154
view profile
History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 3:47:44 PM
Because you feel entitled and are getting something at anothers expense you are happy.....what kind of a person is that ? are you now going to but your policy like the law demands ? if so why didn't you do it before ? or perhaps you don't care who's money pays your way in life ?

Frankster,it has nothing to do with being dramatic,people in America are as ignorant of history as they come,they are spoiled and pampered and think it can't happen here...it did happen here in the 30's and my grandmother told me about people wandering through rich neighborhoods asking for odd jobs for food.The rich are in control,they are just using certain people and groups of people as pawns to gain more power...the rich know that the poor are just as greedy as they are but are too stupid,lazy or ignorant to be rich,they will fall for anything or anyone that tells them they to can live large for little or no money down,that's why people will pay 1000 dollars for 500 dollar T.V at a"rent to own" store....pure ignorance combined with pure greed.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 155
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 3:48:28 PM
People who call it socialized medicine and say the government can't run
anything must not have heard of Medicare and Medicaid.

Everyone is very happy with those programs.
Everyone here in south Florida uses Medicare, it is just standard for
all the retirees.

So you're alright with the fact that the bill re-appropriates $100,000,000 from Medicaid?
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 157
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 4:37:59 PM

Also, anyone who wants to take advantage of the tax breaks that corporations have, they can just start their own corporation. Anyone can do it so long as they file the required paperwork each year so it was another misnomer when it was implied that only the rich can leverage having a corporation or a tax shelter.


That can't be true at all. It depends how you earn the money. Most people with jobs can't just stop earning taxable income and start generating business income. Also, the increased tax burden on the poor is not so much the income tax but rather all the sales taxes etc that add up to a much larger part of their smaller income than it is for people who earn more.


They must not have heard that Canada has universal medical care and
everyone is very happy with it for the most part.


So untrue. But even if it were true, we can't afford it. Our universal health care covers about 70% of the health care requirements of all Canadians. It costs about 12% of our GDP or about 30-40% of our provincial budgets and that doesn't even account for the budgetary shortfalls most provinces run in the health care fields. Our wait times are horrendous, the care provided is often brutal, everybody I know has been pissed off about it at some point. It seems like everyone you talk to has a horror story of some kind and it is just getting worse. Baby boomers will require more care very soon. I'm guessing that in the USA adding to debt really isn't a big concern. I honestly don't know so I just have to ask, can you guys actually afford this?
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 159
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 5:03:47 PM

Sorry but universal health care still scares me to death!


Do you have insurance through your job? Then probably you don't care about those of us who don't. Yeah, it's scary. Italy, France, Denmark, Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden .. . . scary places that make sure their citizens have access to health care. Did you know that *we* American citizens pay, through our taxed, for universal access to health care in Iraq and Afghanistan? Scary thought, isn't it?


Is the government going to decide if we live, die, or get the care we need

Right now, the insurance companies are deciding who gets treatment. Perhaps you haven't watch friends die because there was treatment available but either they didn't have insurance and couldn't afford treatment or they had insurance but the insurance company wouldn't pay for the treatment. You think that's better? Please answer, I'd like to know.
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 160
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 5:07:05 PM
So Rush Limbaugh is leaving the U.S. to escape universal health care and going to a country . . . that provides universal access to health care? Will someone explain this to me?

Here's a list of countries that provide some form of universal access to health care:

Afghanistan*, Argentina, Austria, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Chile, China, Cuba, Costa Rica, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iraq*, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Oman, Portugal, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sweden, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Ukraine and the United Kingdom

Source:
http://www.gadling.com/2007/07/05/what-countries-have-universal-health-care/
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 164
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 5:35:59 PM
I despise people who want the necessities of life that others have to pay for in addition to paying for themselves to have it,i have my own family and friends to look after and owe you nothing,they mean everything to me and you mean nothing to me.

SaharaM it is not a misplaced rant,more than once i have heard people say that this will stick it to the rich...the rich are traditionaly better at math than them non rich and they know that there is no way in hell that health cost are going to go down with this plan..they will still get better health care and there is not a damn thing any of the little bugs can do about it.


Cheshire,if i do or don't it's my business isn't it...and my choice of who i care about....remember "choice"
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 169
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History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 5:52:34 PM
That's what you think...dream on....the old saying goes that he,or she,who digs a pit for another falls into it...get back to me in about 5 years and then crow about it.I'm just being honest with you,i don't know you or anything about you and never will so why should i care. or be willing to part with my already strained resources to solve your problems....oh my name calling...that's aginst the rules you know....sure,as long as you make out who gives a shit about anybody else....i understand...who said i had health insurance...not me....but now i may be forced by law to have it or be fined or imprisoned because if i don't have it others might have to pay for me...like i have been doing my whole working life.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 174
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 6:29:56 PM
Aegle, you should know that Canada has a special expedited immigration process for 6 ft blonde bombshells. You won't have to pay any more for your insurance up here - depending on where you go it should be no more than $40 a month.

Come on up. Even our Conservatives are farther left than Obama on many issues - gay marriage; abortion (nobody would ever consider not funding abortions).
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 175
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 6:35:28 PM

That can't be true at all. It depends how you earn the money. Most people with jobs can't just stop earning taxable income and start generating business income. Also, the increased tax burden on the poor is not so much the income tax but rather all the sales taxes etc that add up to a much larger part of their smaller income than it is for people who earn more.

It's absolutely true. For as little as a couple of hundred dollars a person can submit the paperwork to any state to legally create a corporation. Pay a few hundred dollars more and have an attorney do it for you; it's really not a big deal at all. Hell, people have started businesses just to create corporations for individuals; isn't America great!

Unfortunately, most people have the perception that you have that they have to stop earning a living working for someone else in order to start a business; it just isn't true. Ask yourself this, if the average person normally works 50 or more hours a week, wouldn't it be possible to cut it back by 5 hours in order to work on their own business? If they can't, how about cutting back the hours that they watch television or surf the Internet?

The problem is that the majority of people are willing to put in a ton of hours as long as someone else takes the risk of building a business because its easier than learning how it's done. This is probably because it's not typically taught well [if at all] in government funded educational systems.

Ever notice how many immigrants come to this country and build businesses for themselves? They are willing to learn to do what's necessary to become prosperous on their own accord and not be indentured to someone else's business.

It's this type of opportunity which is available to every American. Unfortunately for lack of education or effort, it's not taken advantage of nowadays. It's how the country was built and yet the masses seem to believe that it's completely evil (even though they're dependent on it for their livelihood).
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 177
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 6:56:38 PM
strings6, cmonster, I couldn't get health insurence. Pre existing condition.

There isn't a damn argument you can make that makes me not want
health insurence. You got yours and now I will get it too.

I must not be watching the right networks who's spreading the propaganda that people shouldn't be insured; the problem is the end run that the Feds would like to take in order to make it happen.

Should pre-existing health problems be covered? - Yes
Should insurance be affordable? - Yes
Should the cost be set and not arbitrarily raised? - Yes
Should pharmaceuticals be affordable? - Yes
Should the Feds provide health services - NO
Should the Feds do something to revamp the healthcare system - Yes
Should it cost the taxpayers (any of them) - NO

How can all of this be done without costing the taxpayer? The Feds can release the restrictions which allows health care providers NOT to compete for business nationwide. It wouldn't cost anyone but the health care companies. They would have to provide better service, lower operating costs and the cost for services. Also, tort reform would make it less expensive for doctors to practice and they could also lower their rates. Why would health providers lower their rates? SO THAT THEY CAN WIN YOUR BUSINESS!! But only if they HAD TO compete with one another. It's not politics, it's economics.

Unfortunately, in order to make this work the Feds would have to push away the dollars received from the health care lobbyists and piss off lawyers who represent people filing malpractice suits. I guess the Feds would have to "pay" in order to make this thing work but that's not going to happen; it's politics.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 180
view profile
History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 7:29:39 PM

For as little as a couple of hundred dollars a person can submit the paperwork to any state to legally create a corporation. Pay a few hundred dollars more and have an attorney do it for you; it's really not a big deal at all. Hell, people have started businesses just to create corporations for individuals; isn't America great!


Yeah, I get that. But you can't just transfer your income from your job into a corporation unless you're operating as a corp.. Of course anyone can start a limited company, it's just generating the appropriate income that's difficult. To the average 9 to 5 guy, this favorable tax scenario isn't really helpful. It's almost like telling the proletariat to eat cake.


Ever notice how many immigrants come to this country and build businesses for themselves?


I think the US is similar to Canada in that most of the time it is easier for an immigrant or new comer of whatever status to invest in a business rather than trying to legally gain employment. That's the biggest reason immigrants tend to own businesses. There are all kinds of incentives for new comers to invest in Canada. But there isn't a lot of support for new comers getting jobs that could go to native Canadians first. I know from my own experience I had to get a bunch of degrees and publications before I would even begin to qualify for a job that an American could otherwise do. But if I had a million bucks to invest and could employ five people I'd be have green cards coming out of my ears.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 183
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 8:43:23 PM
Please explain to me how insurance companies will ever compete for the person with a pre-existing condition. A corporation's first obligation is to its stockholders, is it not? Covering people with pre-existing conditions runs the risk of costing money, not making money. They will not compete to take the risk of covering these people. It is economics!

Easy, because most cases aren't extreme enough to break the bank however, the good service that someone with a pre-existing condition gets could be referenceable and used to possibly bring on board additional customers; both healthy and not-so-healthy. The cost benefit of this marketing could easily be used to lower the cost of the individual's care.

Since the corporation's purpose is to make a profit, the well managed organizations would be profitable because of a higher market share, not higher rates. Think about it, the more healthy people wanting insurance that had on their books would cost less to manage and maintain, increased profits. Whether you understand how it works or not, it is economics.

Yeah, I get that. But you can't just transfer your income from your job into a corporation unless you're operating as a corp.

That would be stealing so you're right, you can't do that. The fact is that as long as you earn an income (even if you own a corporation) you will be taxed. What people don't understand about the difference is when each is taxed. You should look into it, it's eye opening.


Of course anyone can start a limited company, it's just generating the appropriate income that's difficult.

They could even own a full C or S level corporation, there's no restrictions what type of corporation a person chooses, just the framework and management.


To the average 9 to 5 guy, this favorable tax scenario isn't really helpful. It's almost like telling the proletariat to eat cake.

And this is what makes him just average. He's only willing to do what the majority of everyone else is doing; that's average! Why would he expect more if he doesn't want to do more? Just because a hamster runs faster on wheel doesn't mean that it's going to end up anywhere different when he stops.

I think the US is similar to Canada in that most of the time it is easier for an immigrant or new comer of whatever status to invest in a business rather than trying to legally gain employment.

Pretty much anyone with money can invest in a business. I don't know about Canada, but to own a business in America, an immigrant would have to:
1. Come to the country legally
2. Have a permanent residence in the US for at least 5 years.
3. Have no outstanding deportation or removal order
4. Have the ability to read, write, speak, and understand simple words and phrases in English
5. Have knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of U.S. history and government
6. Have an idea
7. Find out how to start a business
8. Get to work.

Americans tend to only need to start at number 6 but few ever get past number 6.

But if I had a million bucks to invest and could employ five people I'd be have green cards coming out of my ears.

Like I said earlier, it's way easier to invest money in a business than to build a business from scratch. This may be the reason why immigrants have to work hard and build a business instead of just investing in someone else's business.

Well put

Thanks. It amazing the things you can learn when you go against the norm to learn how systems really work as opposed to only believing what the people who run the systems tell you.
 Ezzee
Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 188
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 9:45:21 PM

Do people really want to be kicked off their insurence policy when they
get sick????????

No


Do people really want their child with a pre-existing condition to be
blocked from having insurence??????


No



Do people really want to sell their home to pay for medical bills for a
sick child needing expensive leukemia treatments because their
insurence policy maxed out to the limit?????


No



Those of you against this bill need to answer these questions.

These things happen to lots of Americans every day.


There, I have answered your question.

There are also thousands of Americans who don't pay their medical bills because they don't understand how insurance works.

There are also thousands of Americans who don't pay their medical bills because the doctor filed their insurance wrong.

There are also thousands of Americans who don't pay their medical bills because they found out after the fact that if they had gone to doctor XYZ instead of doctor ABC they could've saved $500.

Fact of the matter is that many Americans are stupid when it comes to health insurance. Many people don't realize that ultimately, insurance is THEIR responsibility to make sure that it covers THEIR medical bills. Sure, doctors do it as a courtesy to the patients, but they are not required to. The person seeking the services is the person who is ultimately responsible to make sure the bill is paid, either by insurance or out of their pocket.

Oh, btw, here are some other questions that could be asked to that I would give a no to.

Do you really want to work?

No.

Do you really want to be able to live through the rest of your life paying for everything you may ever need or want?

No.

Do you really want to be rejected by a woman again, regardless of the circumstances?

No.


There are lots of things that I don't really want. And sometimes, bad things happen to good people. In the end, I have to echo the thoughts of my adviser in college and probably one of my favorite instructors of all time.


Life's not fair. Deal with it.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 189
A great day for America
Posted: 3/23/2010 9:46:30 PM
Where is the tax advantage?

Corporations are taxed on net income.

Corporations role is to protect the shareholder value Not profit.

Pssssttt... There's no law which says corporations must sell interest in itself but the law does say that you must show the intent to make a profit (at least to leverage corporate tax laws).
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