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 Helen0426
Joined: 6/2/2009
Msg: 190
A great day for AmericaPage 4 of 17    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17)
OMG!WTF!, median medical-care wait times in the U.S. are three times the median wait times in Canada.

Believe me, your system is better.
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 192
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 10:14:30 AM

Gallup Finds Dramatic Shift: Public Now Favors New Health Law

by Nathan Empsall, Wed Mar 24, 2010 at 1244 AM EDT

Now that we turn from political process to legislative reality, the tide really is turning in the Democrats' favor. A new Gallup poll, the first since the House passed health insurance reform Sunday night, finds that Americans support the new law 49-42:

Nearly half of Americans give a thumbs-up to Congress' passage of a healthcare reform bill last weekend, with 49% calling it "a good thing." Republicans and Democrats have polar opposite reactions, with independents evenly split.

Overall Reaction to Passing Healthcare Bill, Among National Adults and by Party, March 2010

...Americans' emotional responses to the bill's passage are more positive than negative -- with 50% enthusiastic or pleased versus 42% angry or disappointed -- and are similar to their general reactions.

This 7 point favorable is quite the about-face from the 20 point opposition found by both Fox News and CNN before the bill actually passed. Gallup's own last poll on the measure, from 3/4-3/7 but with very different wording from this new question, found 3 point opposition.

What's particularly striking is the even support mong Independents. While Gallup reports don't include crosstabs, PPP's most recent approval poll shows Independents disapproving of Obama 50-44, opposing health care 49-40, and supporting Republicans on the generic ballot 44-26. This is a huge swing in Independent support for health care and it will be interesting to see how it registers in the President's approval rating and the generic ballot.

This confirms what progressive pundits have been saying for weeks: it was the process, not the policy, that voters opposed, and now that the mainstream media is actually covering the policy, the tide is turning. If Republicans truly want to run this fall on overturning the ban on not covering childrens' pre-existing conditions, then by all means, let them be our guests. Jim DeMint was right: This was Waterloo. If unemployment dips below 9%, this midterm might not be nearly so bad after all.


chart at the link: http://mydd.com/2010/3/24/gallup-americans-approve-of-health-bill
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 194
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 10:31:39 AM

By Slim Margin, Americans Support Healthcare Bill's Passage
Independents evenly split in their basic reactions, but more are "angry" than "enthusiastic"

by Lydia Saad

PRINCETON, NJ -- Nearly half of Americans give a thumbs-up to Congress' passage of a healthcare reform bill last weekend, with 49% calling it "a good thing." Republicans and Democrats have polar opposite reactions, with independents evenly split.

Overall Reaction to Passing Healthcare Bill, Among National Adults and by Party, March 2010

The findings, from a March 22 USA Today/Gallup poll conducted one day after the bill received a majority of votes in the U.S. House of Representatives, represent immediate reactions to the vote.

Americans' emotional responses to the bill's passage are more positive than negative -- with 50% enthusiastic or pleased versus 42% angry or disappointed -- and are similar to their general reactions.

Although much of the public debate over healthcare reform has been heated, barely a third of rank-and-file citizens express either enthusiasm (15%) or anger (19%) about the bill's passage. However, only Democrats show greater enthusiasm than anger. Independents are twice as likely to be angry as enthusiastic, and Republicans 10 times as likely.

Emotional Reaction to Passing Healthcare Bill, Among National Adults and by Party, March 2010

Bottom Line

Passage of healthcare reform was a clear political victory for President Obama and his allies in Congress. While it also pleases most of his Democratic base nationwide, it is met with greater ambivalence among independents and with considerable antipathy among Republicans. Whether these groups' views on the issue harden or soften in the coming months could be crucial to how healthcare reform factors into this year's midterm elections. Given that initial public reaction to Sunday's vote is more positive than recent public opinion about passing a healthcare reform bill, it appears some softening has already occurred.

Survey Methods

Results are based on telephone interviews with 1,005 national adults, aged 18 and older, conducted March 22, 2010, as part of Gallup Daily tracking. For results based on the total sample of national adults, one can say with 95% confidence that the maximum margin of sampling error is ±4 percentage points.

Interviews are conducted with respondents on land-line telephones and cellular phones.

In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls.

Polls conducted entirely in one day, such as this one, are subject to additional error or bias not found in polls conducted over several days.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/126929/Slim-Margin-Americans-Support-Healthcare-Bill-Passage.aspx
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 196
view profile
History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 11:11:04 AM

OMG!WTF!, median medical-care wait times in the U.S. are three times the median wait times in Canada.

Believe me, your system is better


I've read the opposite is true. There are a bunch of sources that suggest Americans wait significantly less for several different types of care and over all deal with shorter wait times for general medical care than Canadians. But there are so many different categories of care and treatment that I'm not even sure what median medical wait time means or if it would be possible to compare such a thing between countries. Also wait times in Canada are primarily due to availability of services whereas in the states it seems to be more about getting insurers and providers to agree on a price. But even if it is true, American at least have significantly more private options than Canadians. Canadians either wait or pay Americans for health care. We have some pay for service options but not even close to those available to Americans. And of course this starts people screaming about two tiered medical systems and how people who don't want to wait two years for a hip replacement are killing everybody else in the system because they've opted to pay for faster treatment that could have otherwise been used in the public system. Will private medical care still be available to Americans who want to buy it?
 Helen0426
Joined: 6/2/2009
Msg: 197
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 11:47:38 AM

Will private medical care still be available to Americans who want to buy it?

What are you talking about? Private medical care is all Americans have, except for the military and its veterans.

And an unavailable option does not count as an option. I know several people who've gone to Canada for medical procedures because it would've taken dangerously too long to get them done here - and that's in the Boston area, where we have some of the best hospitals in the world. Unfortunately, their excellence makes no difference to the majority who can't get seen there.

The VA medical system is the best in the U.S., both for availability and for quality overall. Best thing we could do would be to offer that as an option to the public, with premiums paid being a primary factor in paying for expanding it to sufficient availability for new membership. However, that's extremely unlikely to ever happen.

Editing in response to #203: I hope you're right! This is at least a step in the right direction, anyway.
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 200
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 12:10:22 PM
Private versus Military care/doctors. . . .

In the early sixties, when polio vaccine became available, doctors were charging $50/$75 a shot (for me, that was a week's salary). The March of Dimes was making it available at four cents/shot. My mom and some of her friends decided to do a clinic. They got the schools to volunteer space, nurses volunteer to give the shots, but state law required the presence of a physician. The county AMA sent letters to its members threatening them if any should agree. My dad was working as a night watchman at the VA hospital. He was telling one of the doctors there about the problem. The doctor volunteered (he wasn't a member of the AMA), and the clinics took place for several years. Many thousands of children got protection. And my mother worked very hard to get the County Medical Directer, who was also the head of the local AMA chapter, defeated in his next election. He indicated he thought she was the hound from Hell, lol! She was where fairness was concerned.

 grizzelda
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 201
view profile
History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 12:14:23 PM
IMO once the majority of Americans actually get to use the new sytstem and realize the benefits of having even just basic coverage, being able to take their kids to the Dr when they are sick, not when they have the spare cash, being able to have a preventative medical approach not reactive, not having to fight for procedures, the average American will treat health care the same way they treat gun ownership. Imagine that! Then it will be much easier to start to tweak this initial program. I predict that in the next 6-8 years there will be Republican politicians using their projected modifications to the health care systme in the States as an election issue. I am not talking about fighting against it, but suggesting that their vision is better than the people that they fought tooth and nail against implementing it, and they wont even see the irony at all....
 m14shooter
Joined: 10/2/2009
Msg: 203
view profile
History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 1:10:29 PM

For now. This is the problem, in my mind. The vast majority of Americans are covered through their jobs. They don't care. Those of us who are self-employed, or lose their jobs, or work in low-wage jobs that do not provide health insurance are in a very precarious situation.


I have been self employed for a long time and never had a problem with coverage, you just have to be willing to pay for it. Even when I worked for companies that had no coverage I covered myself. I love how everyone thinks the government owes you health care. I am pissed off over this passing as all our premiums are going to go up to pay for the people the government forces on the insurance companies.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 206
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 1:39:16 PM
IMO once the majority of Americans actually get to use the new sytstem and realize the benefits of having even just basic coverage, being able to take their kids to the Dr when they are sick, not when they have the spare cash, being able to have a preventative medical approach not reactive, not having to fight for procedures, the average American will treat health care the same way they treat gun ownership. Imagine that! Then it will be much easier to start to tweak this initial program.

The health care system is as easily "tweaked" as the Federal government. The multiple layers of management, administration, paperwork and general bureaucracy is the very thing that makes American healthcare expensive. It's the same thing that makes services offered by the government to the American people so ineffective; Social Security comes to mind.

Contrary to popular belief, it isn't the "average Joe" with the occasional sick child who aren't readily covered by healthcare. In America there is a considerable amount of people who overindulge in unhealthy activities as their lifestyle. It could range from people who have bad smoking habits to an extreme such as someone like the New Jersey woman who's purposely attempting to reach 1000 pounds (453 kilo).

You mention treating healthcare like gun ownership. We have a considerable amount of both fit and unfit gun owners in this country, health care is the same way. The difference is that gun ownership isn't subsidized by taxes and unfit gun owners are dealt with and not supported.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 207
view profile
History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 1:41:36 PM
With 67% of Republicans and McBeckyites believing that President Obama is a socialist, it's obvious that McCarthyism did not die. Paul Craig Roberts had a good piece today on the death of truth and journalism in the US that put us into this poisonous environment.
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts03242010.html
"Today Americans are ruled by propaganda. Americans have little regard for truth, little access to it, and little ability to recognize it."

http://primebuzz.kcstar.com/?q=node/21796
New Louis Harris Poll.
According to the poll, 57 percent of Republicans, and 32 percent of Americans overall, believe that Barack Obama is a Muslim. The opinion comes despite Obama's description in his bestseller, "The Audacity of Hope", of his adoption of the Christian faith.


The poll found that 45 percent of Republicans, and 25 percent in the overall survey, agree with Birthers that Obama was "not born in the United States and so is not eligible to be president."Even Fox News pundits, notably Bill O'Reilly, have dismissed the Birthers' claims. The state of Hawaii produced Obama's birth certificate during the 2008 campaign.

Another eye-opening finding: 38 percent of Republicans, and 20 percent of Americans overall, agree that Obama is "doing many things Hitler did."

And 24 percent of Republicans, and 14 percent overall, agree that Obama "may be the antiChrist."

The poll found that voters lacking a college education are much more likely to agree with more extreme myths and rumors about the 44th president.

In a more conventional opinion - echoing charges from some House Republicans during the health care reform debate - 67 percent of Republicans believe Obama is a socialist, an opinion held by 40 percent of those surveyed.
 Singleinlewistonidaho
Joined: 8/25/2009
Msg: 208
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 1:57:30 PM
Lets see? Corporations lobby congress to pass NAFTA, and later GATT. Business leaves the USA and gets out of massive taxes. They also no longer provide insurance packages like they did in years past. A health care crisis develops. Government then fixes this with a bill that forces you to pay for your own health care you cannot afford with the service type jobs that are left to us. People working two and three jobs. Cost of living sky rocketing. It won't take much to destroy the middle class now.

You people call that a step in the right direction?

Mike
 Singleinlewistonidaho
Joined: 8/25/2009
Msg: 209
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 2:05:10 PM
Here is a good question. Say you lose your piss ant job at jack in the box that you coud not get full time hours at anyway? You know the one you had to take when the factory that paid you a real living wage was closed when the Government stopped working for the people.
Then what? What then when you have no income to pay for anything?

Mike
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 212
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 2:41:49 PM
The problem with that analogy is that health care is not a product like a gun which can be merely bought and sold, nor is it a privilege to be given only to those who can afford it or happen to work for an employer who provides it. How much does the average gun cost? How much might cancer surgery cost, especially for someone who already has a history of cancer and is trying to get insurance coverage? It is far more efficient and cost effective to die in some cases.

Good points, I'm not completely sure why grizzelda made that analogy other than possibly feeling that being allowed to have both is a right. I agree but so is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Alas, those aren't subsidized either.

Health care affects all Americans, like no other area of human existence and comprehension. Everyone knows what it is to be healthy and to be sick.

Those are good points. So why do you suspect that so many "average" Americans choose to live unhealthy lifestyles, overindulge in unhealthy food and cigarettes knowing what is in store if they get sick? I'm not talking about the unfortunate people who are afflicted with an illness at no fault of their own, I'm talking about the two pack a day smokers who get Cancer and whose second hand smoke inflicted the same fate to their non-smoking spouses? If health care is so important, why aren't more of us living a life which supports health? I guess it's their right not to take care of themselves especially when the government will enforce that someone else will.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 213
view profile
History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 2:45:56 PM
Will private medical care still be available to Americans who want to buy it?


What are you talking about? Private medical care is all Americans have, except for the military and its veterans.


Yeah I know. That's why I'm asking a future tense question. Will you still have private health options after the new health care reform plan is in place? Can people still "jump the queue" by paying from their own funds? That's all. I just don't know if everyone is now in the same big boat, or if there are still some private yachts floating around. This is an interminable problem in Canada.


I know several people who've gone to Canada for medical procedures because it would've taken dangerously too long to get them done here


And vice versa all day long. It's just that the majority of information suggests wait times are far longer in canada than the states. How will this health care reform change or improve wait times because that's pretty much all we talk about up here.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 214
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 3:18:48 PM
Yeah I know. That's why I'm asking a future tense question. Will you still have private health options after the new health care reform plan is in place? Can people still "jump the queue" by paying from their own funds?

Actually, people who choose to pay out of pocket and bypass buying insurance will get fined by having to pay an extra tax for not having insurance. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

And vice versa all day long. It's just that the majority of information suggests wait times are far longer in canada than the states. How will this health care reform change or improve wait times because that's pretty much all we talk about up here.

I'd venture to guess that there might be a slight drop in wait times because Americans will probably stop going to Canada for health care since they will have to purchase insurance in the States. If they must buy insurance here, why would they use services somewhere where they couldn't use the insurance they had to buy?
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 215
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 3:34:33 PM
Our government has no clue how to run a successful business let alone a country with a deficit that just keeps growing and growing.

Government run "programs/businesses" that most of us are happy with: FAA, Air Traffic Control, FBI, FDA, Social Security, Medicare, NHTSA. . . . All these government programs came into being *after* "successful businesses" refrained from killing us outright for their own gain. If rightyradio had been *reporting* instead of propagandizing, your average American might have some idea what is actually in this bill. As it is, approval has jumped 8% since Sunday night. . . .

But don't feel bad: the radical left hates it almost as much as the radical right. So it's just gotta be good, lol! They think it's just an insurance company subsidy, like Medicare Part D was for Big Pharma.

 Helen0426
Joined: 6/2/2009
Msg: 216
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 3:55:52 PM

Can people still "jump the queue" by paying from their own funds?

Still don't know what you're talking about. Private medical care remains all that Americans have. This legislation does nothing to change that. I've cited links to both the bill itself and a summary of its effects earlier in the thread; might be a good idea to take a look at them. It doesn't do what you seem to think it does.

It probably won't improve wait times - which are still roughly three times longer than in Canada, look it up for yourself if you don't believe me. These statistics are easy to find; both our governments track them and they are reported on quite regularly.

If the U.S. enacted real system reform, that might improve wait times. But as I said, that's extremely unlikely, at least in this generation.

However, this legislation does do some pretty important things: It helps those who can't afford it to buy insurance coverage, prevents insurance companies from denying coverage (to children, now, and adults as well in a few years) due to pre-existing conditions, disallows insurers from dropping coverage because people get sick or hurt, and essentially mandates that people obtain coverage by taxing those who don't. I have mixed feelings about that last one but I can't say the results in Massachusetts have been bad. There's more but those are the most major provisions.

So it's a start.
 calisto04
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 217
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 3:56:03 PM

I am pissed off over this passing as all our premiums are going to go up to pay for the people the government forces on the insurance companies.
Actually, what drives premiums up more than anything are peoples' unhealthy life styles and the accompanying added health costs of treating the diseases and side effects .

One of the worst being weight management which includes anything from a few extra pounds to obesity. Because of all the added side effects such as heart problems, and diabetes and not to mention that men need that extra tweak to be treating their ED which is very often contributed to because of the extra weight and diabetic neuropathy. Just imagine how much the insurance companies could save theses days if we didn't have to pay so much in ED drugs.

Just imagine how much the insurance companies could save if people didn't smoke or eat too much? When one considers all the bad effects that has on a person and how much it costs to treat, then it's a given that insurance premiums are going to go up.
 komodo
Joined: 5/27/2005
Msg: 218
view profile
History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 3:59:20 PM
Here is, yet, one more spin on the issue;

About 16 million Americans will be added to the Medicaid program. Medicaid reimbursements will be raised to Medicare levels for general internists, family physicians, and pediatricians in 2013 and 2014. Thomas N. Ahlborn, MD, President of Medical Staff and Director of the Department of Surgery at Valley Hospital in Ridgewood, New Jersey.

What Does the Healthcare Reform Bill Really Mean for Doctors?: New Business Opportunities for Primary Care?

The roster of newly insured patients could turn into a flood or it could turn out to be less than anticipated. But in many cases, it could represent practice opportunities for doctors.

* New business models may attract primary care physicians willing to hire more PAs and NPs (called Personal Support Workers AND Licensed Practical Nurses in other countries) in order to see patients. Doctors who expand in this way could increase their volume of patients while containing costs by using healthcare providers with salaries less than that of physicians.
* Inner-city practices may spring up. Some doctors may be interested in setting up practices in inner cities or areas where patients are now served by clinics or training hospitals. "There might be more demand in inner-city areas or indigent areas where the Medicaid population is greater," says Ahlborn. "Many of those distressed areas probably have a paucity of physicians to begin with."
* Payment instead of unpaid charity care. Hospitals currently lose millions of dollars annually on charity care for patients who show up in the emergency room without insurance and who do not pay their bills. Physicians also do not get paid -- or receive a pittance -- for charity care. If patients going to hospital emergency rooms have insurance -- even at Medicare rates -- hospitals and doctors will receive at least some degree of payment.
* More primary care doctors will be trained. There are provisions of increasing the number of primary care doctors to be available in the future to care for the additional patients.

However, Ahlborn cautions that it's not a given that all newly insured patients will opt to see primary care doctors in office practices.

"Most uninsured people are being seen now, whether it's in clinics or hospital emergency rooms," says Ahlborn. "There are also people who have the opportunity to see physicians but don't access them. And some patients may not be diligent at managing their healthcare or getting screening tests every year or every 3 years. "

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/719014_3

There are 300 million (give or take) people in the US and just as many opinions.
 calisto04
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 220
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 4:22:59 PM

However, Ahlborn cautions that it's not a given that all newly insured patients will opt to see primary care doctors in office practices.
But since they will have access to affordable health care, they will no longer be seen in the ER for a splinter removals and will no doubt referred to their primary care doctor the following day.

People will not wait until the last minute to see their doctor if they know that wellness visits (preventative care) will be entirely covered. People will go to the doctor when they get their sore throats as opposed to waiting until they can no longer breathe appropriately.
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 221
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 4:30:38 PM

In the early sixties, when polio vaccine became available, doctors were charging $50/$75 a shot (for me, that was a week's salary). The March of Dimes was making it available at four cents/shot. My mom and some of her friends decided to do a clinic. They got the schools to volunteer space, nurses volunteer to give the shots, but state law required the presence of a physician. The county AMA sent letters to its members threatening them if any should agree. My dad was working as a night watchman at the VA hospital. He was telling one of the doctors there about the problem. The doctor volunteered (he wasn't a member of the AMA), and the clinics took place for several years. Many thousands of children got protection. And my mother worked very hard to get the County Medical Directer, who was also the head of the local AMA chapter, defeated in his next election. He indicated he thought she was the hound from Hell, lol! She was where fairness was concerned.

That tells you a lot about the mindset of many people who oppose universal health care.

The old commercial maxim of 'supply and demand', jack the price up of a commodity everyone needs and make sure they have no place else to go apart from you. There are many powerful people making obscene amounts of money from the cost of pharmacuticals and hospital charges, and they won't give it up without a fight.
 Casper66
Joined: 3/2/2007
Msg: 222
view profile
History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 4:51:31 PM
Message #216
Let me guess they hate having to wait to see a doctor or specialist, sorry but that is reality, bet you it isn't about having to pay high insurance premiums. The patients I deal with have one major complaint, they have to wait to get in, this is simply because we only have so many spots available and the restrictions on how many patients we can monitor at one time. People don't stop to think that it takes a certain amount of time to perform a particular test then multiple that by the number of people having that test. There is not enough personel and equipment available to do everyone at once, so sorry you just have to wait for your turn. The solution would be to have more people and equipment but that costs money and no wants to pay more so this is what happens. If you want to make things more efficient then people should take more responsiblity for their actions, suchas healthier lifestyles, not going to the doctor or emergency for a cold, people who want test after test even when they are told nothing is wrong, unfortunately many abuse/defraud the healthcare system too, which also costs money, a reason why we have photos on our heathcards.
I am surprized the US didn't just expand it's existing programs, which would have been cheaper and people would have understood it better, the Republicians are just using this as a reason to get back into power, they don't really care about the people because they are rich and have coverage anyways, so no invested interest, just a political ploy.
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 223
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 5:06:07 PM
A portion of this situation that people are ignoring:
The REASON there is a wait for socialized medicine is BECAUSE doctors aren't making significantly more money. So there aren't as many doctors, because it's a high-stress, high-pressure job and if they're not getting paid a lot to do it, guess what? They're not going to do it!

There are SO many layers to this debate that it's impossible to say that socialized or universal medicine is "better" than no medical insurance coverage. It depends on your particular focus. I, for instance, don't go to the doctor--I RESENT having to pay for medical insurance, since I rarely use it. And when I DO need to go, it's actually a NEED. I once was told I had to wait 2 weeks to see about getting a swab for my sore throat (I had strep--two weeks?! WTF--I'd be spreading it all over the place). instead of TORT reform, start with those hypochondriacs who OVERUDSE services--I work with TWO women who go to the doctor at least once PER WEEK. Any time there's asniffle or any discomfort whatsoever, they run off to the doc. I think there's something wrong with them, frankly--like, they need the social aspect of going to the doctor for the sympathy and attention.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 227
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 6:05:37 PM
I don't know why, but someone always brings up that weird argument every time health care is discussed.

Anyway, you end up covering most healthcare costs already: Most of us live to 65; after 65 Medicare covers you; we all die; half of your lifetime health costs will be run up in the last 6 months of your life (on average).

But there are weird people out there who think that someone losing their coverage because they get sick or lose their job is just the price to pay for their version of "Freedom."
 Twilightslove
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 230
view profile
History
A great day for America
Posted: 3/24/2010 6:30:41 PM

This country has gone to shit.


As for whether or not you are haud bardus populus or not that remains to be seen, however your take on the countries current status is quite accurate. If you are trying to blame the state of the country solely on Democrats I believe you should think further and research some more.

Have another cigar.
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