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 myblueshadow
Joined: 11/11/2009
Msg: 36
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Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of viewPage 2 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)

That is a prerequisite too… the part about the child accepting that person as a parent.


From my understanding this is not a prerequisite. I read about a case (can't find the link at the moment) where a step-father was paying child support to the biological dad!

I have a problem with victims being the ones responsible for finding the solution. It's akin to telling a rape victim that they shouldn't have put themselves in that situation. While it may have been bad judgement, it doesn't negate that they have been victimized.
 Ayesha40
Joined: 2/2/2010
Msg: 38
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/8/2010 5:53:47 AM
I have never heard of this law. So would this law apply to a woman if she were to live with a single father? Would the woman have to pay child support to the man's children if they were to go separate ways?
 kissmyasthma
Joined: 12/4/2009
Msg: 40
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/8/2010 6:42:46 AM
Sure easy to say soullady but you know as well as I what the law is and what really happens are so far apart. The other fault with family law in general is that much like the hated generalizations that occur in these forums that not enough time is allocated to each individual case that is brought before a judge and there still is a gender bias.
Case in point, a previous poster has asked whether this law would apply to a woman dating a single father - yes it could but based on extensive observation not likely to occur.
It seems that we do not hold coupled parents anywhere near the same standards as divorced ones and especially dads.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 41
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Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/8/2010 7:24:19 PM

Again, there is no step-anything without legal adoption. You're using "step-parent" to create a responsibility where there is none.


Are you saying that in Canada, the legal definition of the term step parent is reserved for those who have adopted the child of their current spouse & someone other than them self? That is vastly different from the US and perhaps explains the difficulty in understanding. If someone adopts a child, they certainly should be legally responsible for them, financially & otherwise, while at the same time claim "rights" to them.

btw, becoming a "stepparent", whether by virtue of adoption or marrying a parent, does create a responsibility, albeit not necessarily a legal one, at least if one is engaged in a healthy, mature relationship.
 Butterfly~Effect
Joined: 12/12/2008
Msg: 42
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/9/2010 10:47:50 AM
Hi....FIRST, I'm going to say that I did not bother to read the responses ...no offence but I have been around the forums for a long time (even with a previous profile) and this issue has come up so many freaking times ...it's at the point of getting to be pathetic!

However, since once again, some freaked out buffoon has to post it....I am going to give an answer that um duhhhhh......is pure common sense.... *rolls eyes*

If your concerned about being the non -bio parent and paying child support....here is a solution....DON'T BECOME ONE UNTIL.... YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE MARRYING or MOVING IN WITH!!!

Time and time again, I hear about people moving in together after only months of knowing each other...not years...months! Does anyone not bother to get to know each other nowadays? Are you so freaking desperate for some illusion of Love that you have to pack up your belongings..and move in with a literal stranger..and their children?? (Or have the whole brood move in with you??)

As a single parent...the fastest way for me to end a relationship is to have a man even suggest we live together in the early stages (1 year) of dating. Why, why, why would you want to subject yourself and especially children to a live in relationship with someone you barely know.

Oh sure..hand me the crap about how nice he/she was....how great they got along the kids...how you JUST knew you were 'soul mates' ....bullsh**!!! The fact of the matter is your so freaking desperate to have someone to show you some affection (or sex) that you didn't take the time to get to know them.

Fact of the matter is this....if you took the time to know them and genuinely loved them...you probably loved the kids as well. So, maybe the law isn't right...maybe you shouldn't have to pay for someone's child. But...if you genuinely loved the kids...(or maybe you just loved getting laid regularly by the mom) then really, this shouldn't be an issue.

Look personally, I don't agree with it...I do not think someone else should pay for my child, if the child is not his. I wouldn't force this matter in any way...but I do know that there are woman/men that would. So again, it comes back to ...can I live with this decision? Do I love the kids enough that this isn't an issue? Do I know this woman enough that I can almost guarantee that we will be together till this is no longer an issue? If you answer No.....then simply don't do it. Live seperately if you have to till the kids are 18. Unfortunately, it's usually in the hands of the court...or I would say sign an agreement of non payment.

But hey if you don't put some thought into it (like a mature person) then....once you break up...look how lucky you are...you now have the POF forums to come on to spew sh** about how they weren't who you thought they were.....how they did x,y,x to you and your children. And now...because you were a complete idiot....you have to pay child support to someone else's ba**ard kids. (Even though, the children are the only ones COMPLETELY innocent in all of this)....AND...let us not forget how when you moved in...you probably agreed to treat them as your own!!

So....put your big kid panties on and either suck it up and pay the amount , if you were stupid enough to move in prematurely......or better yet....(do I need to say it again?)...know the person you are moving in with.

The lack of human common sense continues to floor me....

Now, to sit back and listen to some a**hole defend himself....*grabs coffee*...this should be a good one
 myblueshadow
Joined: 11/11/2009
Msg: 43
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Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/9/2010 12:06:32 PM
Ditto what rock said!!!
 Butterfly~Effect
Joined: 12/12/2008
Msg: 44
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/9/2010 12:08:25 PM
Ahhh...Rock hunter..you and I have had our battles before...although, I had a different profile then.

However.....in this case, I do agree with you (not about the scotch in the coffee...my coffee is black lol) .....but in this case, yes...I after I posted my rant I went back and did see that the OP was talking it about it in a different manner than I originally thought.

My appologies to the OP....my bad and I'm sorry. I jumped the gun when I saw this issue and after seeing it over and over in different threads over the years...I assumed. Again, my sincere appologies.

The rest of my post I will not appologize for ...I do believe that 90% of the this issue is due to people jumping the gun in relationships.

Rock....also, if you notice...I, in no way, only include men from my 'standard shaming language' that you call drivel. It was intended for any gender that believes jumping into 'live in ' relationship too quickly.
 Butterfly~Effect
Joined: 12/12/2008
Msg: 45
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/9/2010 12:43:55 PM

I know that laws are quite slanted in favor of single moms, but as far as I know, not dating single moms is not a punishable offense...yet.


lol....and I would hope that it wouldn't become one either. If someone chooses NOT to date a single parent....that is fully within their right....no arguments with you on that.

This law doesn't only relate to single moms....it relates to single parents. As a self supporting business owning mother....I would not feel comfortable marrying someone with children only to find if we broke up....I had to pay support to his children because my income was higher.

However, this would not be the case with me....simply because I would not marry someone that I didn't feel 100% confident of this not happening. However, getting back to my post....if I didn't take the time to get to know someone and this was the situation....then I would have to deal with the consequences and pay up.
 Butterfly~Effect
Joined: 12/12/2008
Msg: 46
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/9/2010 1:11:05 PM
Actually, in my case....my ex and I had the same income AND 50/50 share time with the kids.......there is and has never been child support for either of us.

I am in no way demonizing someone if they wish to NOT date a single parent..so I'm assuming your not speaking of me in this sentance. Am I wrong that in this statement we are agreeing with each? Maybe I'm confused about what you are saying?

Forgive me...I'm tired and it's been a long day...
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 47
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Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/9/2010 2:15:10 PM
In one of our conversations about how this law could be abused, I pointed out to my sweetie under the law he had already established in loco parentis by frequently driving my daughter to school last semester. He also took her to hockey a few times when my schedule didn't allow for it, and he joined me at her games when he could. HE was merely being a good partner and helping out. That's more than enough to establish in loco parentis under this law but now that we have given her joint Christmas presents, he is totally screwed.

Good thing he has faith in my integrity and she is about to turn 18.

I understand some provinces are looking into reform as this law has some pretty unfair outcomes with blended families.
 kissmyasthma
Joined: 12/4/2009
Msg: 49
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/9/2010 3:08:33 PM
Isn't it sad that men have to even consider fighting outside the courtroom to follow a law that is written - without gender bias?
Think about it other than a blonde with large hooters getting away with a speeding ticket or a football star in a small town getting away with drinking and driving it does seem the only set of laws that seem to have an unwriiten gender bias is family law.
 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 50
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/9/2010 3:54:58 PM

However, this would not be the case with me....simply because I would not marry someone that I didn't feel 100% confident of this not happening. However, getting back to my post....if I didn't take the time to get to know someone and this was the situation....then I would have to deal with the consequences and pay up.


Well, while I agree with you that too many people decide to live together too soon, I really don't think you can EVER live with anyone long enough to be 100% sure about HOW they will act when the split comes about.

I'll say it again: At the beginning of a relatioship it's all about the LOOoooooove. At the end, it's all about the Monnnnnnnnney.

And, yup, I think it's really important to get the message out to the guys out there about this so they better understand what they could be facing when they get kicked to the curb or versa-visa.

I think 'soul brings up an important bit too. Men ARE much less likely to go after CS than women are as they are more likely to pay CS when it's ordered. The law MAY be written in gender neutral language, but the interpretation and practice of it is definitely NOT.

 Butterfly~Effect
Joined: 12/12/2008
Msg: 51
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/9/2010 4:33:53 PM

However, this would not be the case with me....simply because I would not marry someone that I didn't feel 100% confident of this not happening. However, getting back to my post....if I didn't take the time to get to know someone and this was the situation....then I would have to deal with the consequences and pay up.


Well, while I agree with you that too many people decide to live together too soon, I really don't think you can EVER live with anyone long enough to be 100% sure about HOW they will act when the split comes about.

I'll say it again: At the beginning of a relatioship it's all about the LOOoooooove. At the end, it's all about the Monnnnnnnnney.


Ok....I finally get what both Rock and yourself are saying.....I'm sorry, just having a duh moment. (and yes, coffee is still black lol).

Your both correct...you can never be 100% guaranteed in any relationship. It actually, is a shame that there isn't a clause in this Law for child support to not be an issue... if both participants are agreeable to it.

I suppose, in one way....having been divorced (and proving Rock's point correct), I am lucky that I do know what I want in my next relationship.....which is maybe one (notice I say one ..haha) of the reasons I have not entered a long term relationship in a long time. Honestly, in a way, I think the thought of paying for some other woman's child makes me hesitate to date single full time dads....while it's been pointed out that men would normally not seek child support...it still is not 100% guaranteed that they wouldn't.

I do still continue to hold my theory that people jump too quickly. Perhaps, if I was married to someone with children and I loved the child as my own...then after years of being together something happened to break apart the marriage....the idea of child support would not bother me as much as if I was with the person for a short time....and was forced to pay.

Basically, the longer you know the person before making a big leap into living together....the chances of this happening are going to be minimized.
 Ayesha40
Joined: 2/2/2010
Msg: 52
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/9/2010 10:27:17 PM
From what I have read, it would be best for each person to live in a separate house and they can still date. This way no one has to pay child support for children that don't belong to them. What a strange and unfair law this is.
 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 53
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/10/2010 11:27:23 AM
(TAKEN itsallinthesoul) Is that the fault of the courts or the men that don't fight for their rights?


And, why do you suppose that the majority of men don't "fight for their rights"? Is it because they DON'T CARE about their children? Or is it more likely that they know something about Inevitable Consequences?

Family law overwhelmingly favours mothers. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. Please don't be disingenuous and pretend that this is a gender-neutral issue.



From the looks of it, it will be a while before he gets on his feet again and I will continue to pay cs and help him out when I can. This is how it SHOULD work, don't you think?


Yes. And, good on you for doing this.


Getting him to accept it was like pulling teeth from a tiger because of his "pride".....


When your kids go without, "pride" is just another word. It's unfortunate that some people are harder to convince that their kids are going without, but everyone's pride threshold is set differently.

Jack
 My I
Joined: 1/23/2007
Msg: 55
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/10/2010 2:52:44 PM

And, why do you suppose that the majority of men don't "fight for their rights"? Is it because they DON'T CARE about their children? Or is it more likely that they know something about Inevitable Consequences?

It's not a question of fighting for men's rights in some cases, like mine. It's a question of hthe system totally screwing over men financially. Meaning, a lawyer's first interest is to discover the finances of a man. Then they tell the male client they have two choices:
1) Fight like hell and give the lawyer all his money
2) Submit to the demands and give the money to the ex.
As he explained, "Either way, you're not keeping it."
In my case I did not go to court because there was literally nothing to fight over... I let her have everything and I started from scratch. I didn't care, I just wanted out of the marriage with her.

I reasoned it was cheaper and more beneficial being absent in court than it was to fight because there was nothing to fight about. The only war was in my ex's mind, not mine. She then became enraged when the judge ruled I was not to pay for her lawyer ($5000). My total legal fees = $300. I negotiated with her lawyer but my ex wanted to go to court over $60.00. In effect, that $60.00 cost her $5000.

It's just my opinion but when there is little to split in assets, little to take financially, why should men appear in court? Afterall, it's a widely known fact that bitter women disallow contact with the kids if she's not happy - irrespective of court rulings.

Family courts are a joke, for the most part... depending on your gender, I guess.
 *MidniteBlue*
Joined: 2/28/2010
Msg: 56
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/10/2010 4:03:36 PM
Agreed

Family courts are a joke, for the most part... depends on your gender, I guess.
...however, gender's irrelevant, but to those that are bitter.
 My I
Joined: 1/23/2007
Msg: 57
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/10/2010 4:22:51 PM

...however, gender's irrelevant, but to those that are bitter.

*sigh*
If you say so.
Gender is relevant in family court in Ontario. All you need to do is ask any of the smiling ex-wives who love going to court regularly. When lawyers publicly agree there is gender bias in family court, you know it's gotta be the case... lawyers usually don't take sides - they only take money.
 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 58
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/10/2010 4:40:34 PM
Family courts are a joke, for the most part... depending on your gender, I guess.


While there are cases where court decisions ARE gender-neutral, I'm sure, it's pretty interesting talking with a lawyer who specializes in family law.

I went to see a lawyer a few years ago because my ex was threatening to take me to court for more CS because I'd opened my big mouth about being a bit pissed off because she'd quit her job which in turn could end up costing me a lot more in CS.

The first thing the lawyer told me was that I was a frickin' idiot for opening that can of worms because she could do pretty well whatever she wanted and if it meant that it was going to cost me double what I'd been paying then too bad for me.

The other thing he told me was a story about a case he'd recently taken to court. A woman had left her husband for another guy and had custody of the kids so the husband was paying support. Both she and hubby #1 made about the same money. She'd married the second guy and gotten pregnant. Because she couldn't work, due to complications, she sued for more CS for the kids of the first marriage and WON! Hubby #1 had to pay more CS!

Talk about paying CS for a kid that ain't yours....

.. if I had been happy to pay $200/hour more, that lawyer would have been happy to tell me horror stories all day long...

The lawyer's bottom line advice was to just shut up and pay. Don't make waves, don't piss off the ex because if you are a guy and you make more than what the ex makes, you're fvcked if you make waves.

 *MidniteBlue*
Joined: 2/28/2010
Msg: 59
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/10/2010 4:51:21 PM
Agreed

When lawyers publicly agree there is gender bias in family court, you know it's gotta be the case... lawyers usually don't take sides - they only take money.
... are the gender's of the lawyers as relevant to their greed, as you feel gender is relevant to the greed of female litigants?
 My I
Joined: 1/23/2007
Msg: 60
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/10/2010 6:19:41 PM

are the gender's of the lawyers as relevant to their greed, as you feel gender is relevant to the greed of female litigants?

^^gender is relevant to the courts and the way the political system is set up. I stated:

It's a question of hthe system totally screwing over men financially

Most women have enough common sense to be reasonable. Others are vengeful brats who really don't care how poorly they treat men. Nor, are they overly concerned about the children's feelings during all of this. Well, that is, until they are in front of a judge and suddenly their children are the only reason for living... and the only reason they've come to court.

About the lawyers... gender is irrelevant.
 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 62
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/10/2010 8:09:04 PM
I do agree with Cap on the whole...


Well, yeaaaaaAAHhhh... how could you NOT?


You do have that right because to persume otherwise would be a charter of rights violation because that would be gender discrimination.


... and a bit on this statement as something that I discussed with the lawyer I mentioned in my previous post.

I went to him with the intention of talking about the Charter and equal rights because it didn't seem right to me that my ex could make choices that inpinged on my rights. He was the one who pointed out that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms has a subsection which gives women special rights, so that as long as women are seen as "disadvantaged" they do, in fact, have more rights than men in Canada.

 ChocolateNutt
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 64
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/11/2010 1:59:56 AM
I have a few comments:

In relation to the original post: I don't have a problem with governmental interference, our society has become so selfish that someone has to intervene in the children's best interests sometimes. However, it is unfair that a woman or man should be able to sue for child support from more than one person. It is also unfair that the person who has accepted and enjoyed responsibility for the child is not guaranteed for that to continue after the ending of the adult relationship.

However, for those people who are complaining that the stepparent (or significant other without adoption) has no rights after: this isn't an injustice only for stepparents. There is no guarantee that the custodial parent will be reasonable or that the courts will choose the just course of action whether you are biological or not. There are many biological dads out there who should have equal custody but don't because Mom is a so and so or because the courts weren't fair. It's just a shitty situation that parents become too selfish or obsessed with their own feelings that they can't see beyond that to the welfare of the child and make choices that reflect that.

For the people who are discussing Dads not pursuing custody because they are financially broken by an unfair system, that is the case probably half the time. I see MANY dads who chose not to be involved with their children because they just are too selfish or immature to be bothered. I see many dads who are granted visitation but can't be bothered to show up. I see many dads who are in relationships with mom, but still don't shoulder any responsibility for the children (I have several female friends whose partners won't even look after their biological children for an occasional evening!!). These dads are a LARGE part of the reason that Moms are still receiving a lot of special treatment from the courts.

For the people who say all women are just after your money. SOME women are after gain, certainly not all and maybe not even the majority. For example: I didn't sue my daughter's father for child support, I respected his choice not to be a parent. I didn't sue the only man I've ever lived with (not my daughter's father) for child support, and I certainly did offer and encourage him to continue his relationship with her after our adult relationship failed.

Also, the status quo is changing for more equality between the genders. I know several fathers who have equal time with their children and a couple more who have been awarded full custody AND child support. The more men who step up and assume mature responsibility, the faster it will continue to change.

For those people who suffer because the custodial parent is unreasonable, you have my sincere sympathy. Please don't stop fighting for the children. I've learned from having a fatherless child, both parental figures are valued and treasured by children.

Nutt
 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 65
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/11/2010 8:12:32 AM

BTW CAP...women don't have special rights or considerations in Canada in family court...at least in my experience...


Well, actually, women ARE given special rights under our Charter of Rights and Freedoms in Canada.


Equality Rights

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EQUALITY BEFORE AND UNDER LAW AND EQUAL PROTECTION AND BENEFIT OF LAW / Affirmative action programs.
15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

(2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.


Subsection 1 covers women as "disadvantaged" group. This is why women can have women's only health clubs, why boys cannot join Guides while girls can join Scouts, why girls can play on boys sports teams but the reverse doesn't happen.

And, as I mentioned before, I went specifically to a lawyer to discuss my rights in regards to family law. HE told me that I didn't have a hope in hell because of the way Equal Rights is written in our Charter.

And, just as you and most women here see it, the courts regard any complaint by a man about rights and legal inequalites as "whining".....

And, as promised:

 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 66
Canada child support law for non-bio parents: different points of view
Posted: 4/11/2010 11:33:56 AM

I agree with TAKEN....if the only thing men do is complain about being victims of a biased system...it is a system they are condoning by not challenging it.
However after what I have experienced first hand, IMO it is not only arrogant for men to complain about being treated unfairly, it is irresponsible for men to continue to be victims of such laws when it is within their power to change what makes them be victims.


But how is change to be found with the existing situation? Fathers rights groups are ever changing individuals due to the nature of everyone is donating their time and effort with any national funding...

As opposed to

Funding supplied to:

Feminist Alliance for International Action
Federation des femmes du Quebec
NAWL --National Association of Woman and the law
Canadian Institute for the advancement of Woman
Ad Hoc Coalition for woman’s equality


FACT SHEET
The following nine Vancouver-based organizations will receive a total of $1,083,000 in funding from the Women's Community Fund of Status of Women Canada:

•The BC/Yukon Society of Transition Houses will receive $363,440 for its project entitled Opening Doors: Reducing Barriers for Women Living with Mental Illness, Substance Abuse and Violence. This initiative focuses on the issue of safety from violence by decreasing barriers faced by women with histories of substance abuse/mental illness and violence when accessing services in transition houses, and second- and third-stage housing in rural and urban communities in British Columbia and the Yukon.


•The Justice for Girls Outreach Society will receive $231,275 for its project entitled CEDAW for Girls: An Initiative to Promote Teenage Girls' Awareness of their Human Rights. This initiative focuses on the elimination of discrimination against marginalized girls in communities in British Columbia. Girls and representatives of women's groups will be educated about their human rights - in particular, those included in the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW).


•The Réseau-Femmes Colombie-Britannique will receive $149,534 for its project entitled L'Économie au féminin (The Economy from a Woman's Point of View). This initiative targets French-speaking women in British Columbia's minority communities. It will build the economic security of these women by providing them with financial education, and will develop their leadership skills through social autonomy and democratic participation.


•Women in Search of Housing (WISH) will receive $85,500 for its project entitled Housing and Enterprise: Sustaining Women in their Middle Years. Targeting women aged 40 and above who are living in Vancouver, this initiative focuses on building their economic security. The women will benefit from better access to information and services relating to community planning, housing, income and supports.


•The Société Inform'Elles Society will receive $81,000 for its project entitled Entreprendre sa vie, son avenir (Taking Charge of Your Life, Your Future). This initiative targets French-speaking immigrant women in British Columbia who live in a precarious situation. The project will increase their economic security by developing their leadership skills.


•Family Services of Greater Vancouver will receive $75,219 for its project entitled My Money, My Choices. It addresses the priority issues of economic security and the elimination of violence against women in the B.C. lower mainland, with a focus on Burnaby, New Westminster and Vancouver.


•Helping Spirit Lodge will receive $52,378 for its project entitled Soaring Spirits Healing Program. It targets Aboriginal women living in the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver, with the goal of providing them with culture-specific programming that will increase their self-esteem, cultural identity and skills development. It will also help them develop personal leadership action plans that focus on the steps required to end violence in their lives.


•PeerNetBC (formerly the Self-Help Resource Association of British Columbia) will receive $23,654 for its project entitled WELL - Women's Empowerment, Learning and Leadership. This initiative focuses on developing leadership skills among marginalized women in Vancouver and surrounding area. The women will enhance their communication skills and develop facilitation skills so they can deliver workshops on a variety of topics.


•The WISH Drop-In Centre Society will receive $21,500 for its project entitled WISH Security Project. The initiative focuses on the safety and leadership development of sex-trade workers, and the community surrounding the WISH Drop-In Centre in downtown Vancouver.





Family of Men support Society

Date; November 2008

Alison Redford, Q.C.
Minister of Justice and Attorney General
Office of the Minister
403 Legislature Building
10800 - 97 Avenue
Edmonton, Alberta
T5K 2B6


Dear Minister Redford, Q.C., MLA


In your response, November 4, 2008, to Mr. Allan Buteau's letters to Premier Ed Stelmach you made mention of some interesting points.



While it is appreciated you acknowledge the dedication of Family of Men Support Society, in Calgary and Men's Help Line, in Edmonton, helping male victim of female perpetrated domestic violence. It would be equally appreciative if you also acknowledge that these two groups or any other men's support groups in Alberta do not receive any provincial funding, albeit the government will provide during 2008-09 in excess of $59 million to support family violence prevention and bullying programs. Men are excluded from this process, these behaviors boarders on misandry.



It is dismal to experience the exclusion of men from the community and the political process pertaining to family violence



The following items are brief descriptions as they pertain to the exclusion of men from the family violence process, both in the community and in government;


The first example, a question in italics I asked Children's Services, their response is indented. It is in regard to increasing the number of shelter beds for male victims of female perpetrated domestic violence in Alberta;



_____________________________________________________________________________________




*Thank you for visiting the Alberta Government feedback web site.
Following is the response to your question prepared by Children and Youth Services [CYS]




On 2008-11-21 1000.0 you wrote:


Will the provincial government fund an additional shelter beds for male victims of female perpetrated domestic violence who are seeking shelter from the violence?

Will the government recognize the need of beds for male victims of female perpetrated DV?

Children and Youth Services respond as follows:

Preventing family violence and bullying is a priority for the government of Alberta. Priority strategies for family violence prevention are set based on priority service needs identified by nine government departments, service providers and community partners. Government is committed to working alongside community agencies to support safe community initiatives across the province to support programs and resources that are available to all victims of family violence in Alberta who need them, including men. An example is emergency shelter for male victims in Strathmore, and outreach programming provided through a partnership with The Calgary Counseling Centre. At this time, demand for these services is not sufficient to add another men's emergency shelter bed.

Questionably is the statement; "strategies for family violence prevention are set based on priority service needs identified by nine government departments, service providers and community partners."




Men are excluded from the process determining priority of service needs



*Alberta Roundtable on Family Violence and Bullying, a project sponsored by Alberta Children Services March 2004.




Men were excluded from the larger process and participation. Men were relegated to mere members of the audience. Dr. Eugin Lupri submitted a family violence paper, titled Domestic Violence: The Case of Male Abuse, for inclusion in the process; it was denied insertion on the web site as well as distribution to participants.


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On the direction of Heather Forsyth, then Minister of Children's Services, an application for family violence initiative funding was submitted to the department. The application survived the majority of the process until a letter was received from Sheryl Fricke, June 15, 2005, which stated "...is intended to develop and sustain as many collaborative community partnerships as necessary to support and implement a coordinated response to family violence and/or bullying." "...partnerships and linkages with the family violence service providers and stakeholders identified as target audiences for the online course are also needed..."

The exclusion of men from the family violence groups and organizational process is the root cause of the problem, hence the funding was denied due to a lack of community partners.


*Action Committee Against Violence exclusion.

The City of Calgary has been very pleased to be a partner in the development of the Action Committee Against Violence (ACAV) since it was established by City Council in December 1991. The project involves over 30 partners and sponsors in order to fulfil their mission "to enhance community capacity to foster a seamless continuum of services that prevents family, sexual and other interpersonal violence".

The City of Calgary's protocol manual on family violence stipulated that only "...two accountability groups

Male victims of female perpetrated domestic violence were automatically dismissed and any support service with a different accountability group was not considered for participation.

Therefore, as it pertains to Sheryl Fricke's statement on partnerships, ACAV is a community organization, which received city and provincial funding (FCSS) but is unwilling to include men's designated groups as partners thusly partnerships and funding is not made accessible.
will be considered;"...Men who had been abusive to their partners and women who had been abused by their partners..."

*Calgary Homeless Foundation exclusion.

Bob Coe, Regional Director Homelessness Initiative Service Canada Government of Canada informed us that since the federal government does not directly fund programs, it is necessary to be part of the Calgary Homeless Foundation. Service Canada, on our behalf, contacted CHF for a seat on the Family Violence Sector. The seat was refused because we did not have membership with the Alberta Council of Women's Shelters; no men allowed.
Mr. Coe's, 403-292-5500, response was that this action is discrimination.

*Calgary Domestic Violence Committee exclusion.

During the process of being refused a seat at the CHF, membership at the Calgary Domestic Violence Committee was discussed. It was CDVC determination that based on their "best practices" the exclusion of male victims of female perpetrated domestic violence is reasonable.


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In conclusion; men's groups are dismissed and excluded from community participation and discussion pertaining to victims of family violence. Partnerships can not be formed with organizations that specifically ensure that the male voice is excluded. Men can not be part of the community process if the doors to the meeting room are closed and locked.

While men continue to be blamed for their contribution to domestic violence men, remain locked out of the mechanism for change




The provincial government provides funding to these various organizations, as a taxpayer I have two concerns;




Based on facts that male victims of domestic violence are equal in numbers to women victims of domestic violence but yet tax dollars are only going to services for women victims of domestic violence. Are men deserving or not deserving of provincially funded family violence victim services?
My tax dollars go to groups that exclude male participation as well as perpetrating the myth those male victims is a non issue or not a priority because male victims have no voice and without a voice it does not become a priority nor are services provided.


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Will members of the Provincial Government apply pressure to those groups receiving provincial funding but have a basis of male exclusion to immediately provide male inclusion?


Reply respectfully requested.

Yours truly,


Earl Silverman, BST


I was active with an Ontario support group and remember a few academics that were unable to be accredited with the Alberta Roundtable as the premise was only dealing with domestic abuse perpetrated by men.

I would imagine Renee Sommers would also not have been well received as her doctoral thesis’s suggested that woman and men were equally capable and involved in the problem...

So Lizzie.....there is no funding and the woman’s groups have been very effective in marginalizing and muting the attempts to get the word out there.
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