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 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 57
heaven- a punishment or a reward...Page 3 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)

heaven- a punishment or a reward...

I would say a big portion of it depends on if you wanted to die.
 calisto04
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 58
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/18/2010 4:42:21 PM

heaven- a punishment or a reward...
It would be a punishment for me and it's the last place I want to end up so I'm going out of my way to be as bad as legally possible so that I will not have to go there.
 southernlass
Joined: 5/2/2006
Msg: 59
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/18/2010 8:29:17 PM

curious-
is the christian version of heaven
enough to excite you
and is the bible's version of heaven
to be taken literally-

if not,
would a heaven of your own choosing-
be more up your ally?


I'm not sure what I'll make of heaven, as it is explained or made reference to within the bible.

I do know that due to my intense love for God that I'll be extremely excited and probably awestruck when I'm face to face with this presence, and where ever God is, I'll be honored and grateful to be. My hope is that all of my questions will be answered and that I'll begin to have an even deeper love for Him once all of the bad things on earth are over and a new heaven and a new earth are the reality.

I'm not sure how it will feel to actually have peace on earth, or to watch the lion lay down beside the lamb. I believe that there will be animals in heaven because God has spoken of His feelings for animals and most pet owners can clearly see that their animals have a soul. I will be very happy to meet up with my many animals who have passed away.

Clearly, it's going to be nice to actually live in a way that is good, healthy, and morally reasonable with everyone else desiring the same. To experience eternal life and not have to fear sickness or pain, to have no more death, killing, bloodlust, and murderous rage, to experience a cessation of the exploitation of women through the overwhelming amounts of pornography that is all around us and our children, to no longer have to witness blatant immorality and unethical behaviors and actually experience the genuine love of other people for one another, who also love God, and all of this while God walks among us is too much for the mind to even realize right now.

Our world as it is can be a very ugly, self centered, selfish place. Eventually this is all going to be done away with and well, I'm not sure how the new world couldn't be conceived of as "heaven."
 southernlass
Joined: 5/2/2006
Msg: 60
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/18/2010 8:56:40 PM
But that seems to be the "missing element" in what the Holy Ones here on earth advocate. Goes something like this, "though sinful as you might be, why, ask for forgiveness, perhaps at the last possible minute, and, shore nuff you'll be drinking Tea with Ol St. Peter hisself. Green tea, of course.


Sounds like you're really hung up on stereotypical garbage and considering yourself as holier-than-thou, thus you've essentially become what you claim to detest. This is another thing that is certain to be a thing of the past in heaven, thank God... Hypocrisy.
 southernlass
Joined: 5/2/2006
Msg: 61
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 6:17:50 AM
Please. Just because you can't stand a little truth, don't play the "oh you're such a bad Christian" card; this is just weak. Anyway, I'm sorry you're offended but I no longer play politically correct games and am inclined to tell it exactly like it is, from my own perspective.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 62
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heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 6:57:20 AM
Never have such a huge majority who have their way over 90% of the time, felt so persecuted.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 63
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 7:24:58 AM
Like I said, ironic. Nothing I could have written would have made my original point so succinct.

Sometimes examples are like ...manna from ...heaven.

elevator music, and what not.

Elevat... Heaven? Oh ...no, ...hey! Did you ever see the sketch on SNL with Paul Simon and Satan in the elevator "to hell"? From Wikipedia

The Limits of the Imagination was a short-lived sketch featured on the 1985–1986 season. It featured Randy Quaid as "The Floating Head", a Rod Serling-like character who would introduce a creepy, Twilight Zone-esque story with a weak ending (or no ending at all).

"Young Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel (played by Robert Downey, Jr. and Anthony Michael Hall) sell their souls to the Devil (Jon Lovitz) for success. Later, an elderly Paul Simon (who appears as himself) lives out his personal hell of listening to Muzak versions of his greatest hits while stuck in an elevator."


Jon Lovitz has always been my favourite Satan.


I'm sorry you're offended but I no longer play politically correct games and am inclined to tell it exactly like it is, from my own perspective.

Offended? Where do you get that from, ...I think it's more a wink n' a grin and a, "see what I mean?" every time one sees an ignoratio elenchi argument (when they know how to spot one).

It sorta' one of those tip o' the hat, "Thanks for making my point for me", things, ...no perceived offence explicit or implied.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 64
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heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 9:17:04 AM
I just wanna go wherever "Spresley" and "Krebby" go. Now that would be a reward.

They have so much fun and would certainly "save" me from being "saved" by the "Savers" who go around trying to "save" those who need to be "saved" or who they think NEED to be "saved" when in fact they need to be "saved" from themselves ... you know, the "saved" ones or the ones who think they're "saved". (Did I use that word often enough to "save" myself?)

Did that make sense to anyone else but me?


 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 65
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 9:25:33 AM
ZZ Top

Another Tejas/Heaven resource
(Texans seem to have a knack for this stuff, ...seriously)

Just an hour or two ago I went to the Circle K with the S.O.'s PT Cruiser, ...to gas up and get a coffee, I had one of the mix CDs I made for her in the deck, ...before I left the driveway I made sure I had some PT Cruisin' tunes to keep me company for the 2 minute drive (yeah, ...I know, I know...).

"Precious and Grace", ...a seriously infectious groove, when it got to the last verse (on the way back t'home):

"So if you're out rollin' late some night,
Yeah, and you need that supernatural delight, I'm talkin' to you, brother,
I know somebody's, they's just out of sight.
Get with Precious and Grace, they gonna treat you right."


Yeah, ...immediately thought of this thread, that's no lie.

There's a ton o' heaven and Jesus mythos in the Reverend Willie G.


Agitated the ol' lady something awful.

Can't figure out why ...

...takes all kind brother Kreb, ...all kinds.

Shaw 'nuff


I just wanna go wherever "Spresley" and "Krebby" go.

Which one, ...the Texas one? or the German Beer Hall heaven, ...I'm good either way, ...I think they'll both have beer and leggy dancin' girls... serving beer (I imagine though that the German versions will be curvier, ...one can hope) and probably Carl Sagan.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 66
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 10:23:23 AM
I see Krebby is running around "saving" threads again


heaven- a punishment or a reward...


So what if someone believes in reincarnation?

Anyway, I kept knock knocking on heaven's door and thank goodness he finally answered.

I wasn't wearing any clothes.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 67
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 10:25:50 AM
Band was mostly teeny bopper but they came out with a song or two that's got depth to it.

Very innovative band in spite of the teeny-bopper label, ...people are still digging out metaphors from "Crimson and Clover", ...I've always been a sucker for the tremolo...

Still, of all the regional/genre song references to heaven, be they polka, blues or "south o' the border", ....Texas is a heaven nexus, that's a fact.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 68
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heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 10:29:42 AM


I just wanna go wherever "Spresley" and "Krebby" go.
Which one, ...the Texas one? or the German Beer Hall heaven, ...I'm good either way, ...I think they'll both have beer and leggy dancin' girls... serving beer (I imagine though that the German versions will be curvier, ...one can hope) and probably Carl Sagan.
Well the older I get, I have noticed a few more curves ... sigh ... so I'd probably fit in good with either place. I'll wear my dirndl and that way I can fit in to the German Beer Hall heaven just fine.

But honestly, I just got back from San Antonio and our dirndls looked pretty good there too. (Seems like wherever we go, the people just want to hear us sing, eat the brats and hot German potato salad, and enjoy the sites of us in our Bavarian dirndls.) You've got to admit ... we have some really fun beer-drinking songs.

Just bring your music makin' machines and I'll bring my voice and we'll never be lonely for a crowd of people anxious for some good music. Hey "Krebby" ... what instrument do you play?
 CallmeKen
Joined: 9/4/2009
Msg: 69
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 12:58:32 PM
I see God in every leaf, everything around me.

That must make it hard to take a leak in the woods.


I've seen His work and His mercy in my life.

I saw God's work when I lost my job in the recession, my wife divorced me, and I lost my home. Now I pray every morning that God will stop giving me His mercy. Any more of God's love, and I'll be living in my car.


Why do people have to turn a loving God into some kind of a joke?

Loving God? Apparently you haven't read much of the Old Testament.


Does it make you feel superior?

No, God makes Its (His? Her? whatever) followers feel superior. That's the whole point. Religion allows us to step over a homeless person on the way to our Sunday breakfast brunch, satisfied in the knowledge that we do no wrong, our souls are clean.

I lost my will to go to Heaven during graduate school. I used to have a pet rabbit (Pfeffer, German for "stew") that would study with me. Or maybe just the carrot on the book, I don't know. One day a sidewalk preacher shouted at me, "DON'T YOU WANT TO GO TO HEAVEN?" I turned and asked, "Does Heaven allow rabbits?" He triumphantly shouted, "No!" I said, "Keep your Heaven. Not interested." That was it.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 70
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heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 1:09:43 PM


heaven- a punishment or a reward...
So what if someone believes in reincarnation?
Hey ... I was wondering that myself.

I think that's probably one of the reasons I haven't been giving 'heaven" much thought.

Who needs "heaven" when they know they're coming back again?

Now I could envision going to that "German Beer Hall heaven" ... and knocking back a few while waiting to return ... ...
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 72
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heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 7:50:01 PM
In my experience, dogs are a far better judge of human character than any God, Goddess, Devil, preacher, politician, or religious hypocrite I have ever met. Dogs also have the audacity to lift their legs and show people exactly how they feel about them without the lying and nuance. They display their final analysis in a warm, wet and sincere sort of way that dribbles into the souls/shoes of the offending two legged ones or licks the faces of the good and righteous.
Dog bless us one and all....if we deserve it.
 anonymouslyme
Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 73
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 8:00:32 PM
Am I the only one that thinks heaven/hell is another one of those inseperable dualities that is differentiated only by our own perception, and that it's entirely possible that we're experiencing it right now? Weather you percieve your existance as heavenly, filled with joy and satisfaction, or hellish, fraught with frustration and pain, it's largely a result of our own actions/attitudes.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 74
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heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 8:31:28 PM
Since I don't believe in heaven and believe that if there were such a place, it would be painless, without heartache and/or actual physical pain.

If that's the case, then what we now experience must be hell. I mean how much worse for the tender soul than to experience all this pain ... physical and mental?

Yuppers ... this is hell and some of us just deal with it better or differently than others.
 anonymouslyme
Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 75
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 8:47:05 PM

How does that make any sense at all? A starving, tortured, raped toddler in one of the wierd war zones of the world is experiencing a "hellish" existance because of his/her "actions/attitudes"?
This is a valid point, and I agree,that's a horrible experience for a toddler to endure, and could not possibly have been created by the child's actions/attitudes. A child doesn't have fully developed critical thinking skills, or autonomy from their parents, so until that time, they are dependent on thier parents, and their experience is shaped by decisions/actions of their parents/benefactors, much as your childhood experiences were shaped by decisions/actions of your parents, until you were ready and able to assume responsibility for your own life. I'm not saying I'm right, it's just a thought I've had.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 76
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 10:01:36 PM

Ain't no god that gonna help either this poor chile or the photography feller.


So why don't we dispense with the notion of "god is our saviour" and become our own saviour? Nevermind if we help another less fortunate, we will get to heaven, how about it is simply the right thing to do?

Screw infinite punishment for a finite crime, and finite reward for an infinite act of kindness.

How about we do things because they are the right thing to do, and we don't need to externalize morality in order to give us (humans) the impetus to do, what really we should have been doing in the first place?

I remember that photo.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 77
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/19/2010 11:00:33 PM

Answer seems to be a mite simple.


Yup, ...nobody chooses hell (on earth) they either suffer through it or die suffering, heaven (on earth) is almost always via privilege of circumstance, ...what greater sin could there be than complacency in this heaven?

(sigh)

...talk about abomination.


Ain't no god that gonna help either this poor chile or the photography feller.

Damn...
 southernlass
Joined: 5/2/2006
Msg: 78
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/20/2010 5:58:42 AM
^Perhaps a little tolerance for other people's points of view that are different from your own might be in order, instead of being so obviously disturbed by someone answering the OP's question biblically, as she inquired of us. That this disturbs and threatens you apparently, is something you may want to resolve in therapy. The "thumper" pov is the biblical one, and "heaven" is discussed quite a bit within this holy book of our faith, thus it is not at all strange that there will be those who perceive of heaven as described by the same.


So why don't we dispense with the notion of "god is our saviour" and become our own saviour? Nevermind if we help another less fortunate, we will get to heaven, how about it is simply the right thing to do?

Screw infinite punishment for a finite crime, and finite reward for an infinite act of kindness.

How about we do things because they are the right thing to do, and we don't need to externalize morality in order to give us (humans) the impetus to do, what really we should have been doing in the first place?


For the Christian it's not about doing the right thing in order to externalize morality, nor is it about the decision to instead become god or our own savior. Those who follow Jesus Christ, who believe the bible, recognize that we do not get into heaven by our works, but instead by our faith in Jesus Christ as an intercessor for our sins. We cannot create our own salvation or be our own savior. We are not gods/god.

What works for you, on the other hand, is your business and what you're entitled to and likewise for us, one would hope.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 79
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heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/20/2010 6:03:13 AM
Even Christian sects have wildly divergent views of a heaven and who gets to go there and for what reasons. One of my friends became a mormon late in life so she could drag her atheist hubby along on the ride for eternity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven#In_Orthodox_Christianity

I like John Connolly's version of Heaven..Fiddler's Green. A white man's version of the Happy Hunting Grounds of many of the First Nations on this continent, where the weather is better and the game bountiful and easy to catch.

"Now, Fiddlers’ Green is a place, I’ve heard tell, Where fishermen go if they don’t go to Hell – Where the weather is fair, and the dolphins do play – And the cold coast of Greenland is far, far away …

The sky’s always clear, and there’s never a gale – And the fish jump on board with a flip of their tails – You can lie at your leisure, there’s no work to do – And the Skipper’s below, making tea for the crew …

And when you’re in dock, and the long trip is through – There’s pubs and there’s clubs, and there’s lasses there too – The girls are all pretty, the beer is all free – And there’s bottles of rum, growing on every tree …

I don’t want a harp nor a halo, not me – Just give me a breeze and a good rolling sea – And I’ll play me old squeezebox as we sail along – With the wind in the rigging, to sing me this song …"
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 80
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/20/2010 11:04:27 AM


^Perhaps a little tolerance for other people's points of view that are different from your own might be in order


My irony meter just red-lined and broke again...I see that a lot from certain posters...have to get it re-calibrated for them...


, instead of being so obviously disturbed by someone answering the OP's question biblically, as she inquired of us. That this disturbs and threatens you apparently, is something you may want to resolve in therapy. The "thumper" pov is the biblical one


Well that's not really true at all. The "bible thumper" POV is but one of many different POV's that use the Bible as it's scripture...it believes it is "The" Biblical one, but of course no one really gives a toss what one xenophobic group of religious intolerant believers believes in the grand scheme of things. They can believe what they like and bully for them. It no more makes it fact than any other groups belief. Hundreds of religious sects use the Bible for their scripture.

Fortunately for the world, the majority are more tolerant in their beliefs than those fringe fundamentalist evangelicals and dominionist theocrats bent on converting all others or damning them to perdition. That's something they all may wish to resolve in therapy, along with the fact that the world and other people's faith decides to keep moving despite their doctrinal stasis and what in my humble opinion could only be described as bass-ackward approach to religion and scholarship...but that's another topic.



For the Christian it's not about doing the right thing in order to externalize morality, nor is it about the decision to instead become god or our own savior. Those who follow Jesus Christ, who believe the bible, recognize that we do not get into heaven by our works, but instead by our faith in Jesus Christ as an intercessor for our sins. We cannot create our own salvation or be our own savior. We are not gods/god.


This is a gross oversimplification and a straw-man depiction of other faiths views on morality and sin and redemption but as a former but long since recovered member of the Christian church I recognize it...it is the pap version that they teach their members to help convince them of the moral superiority of their own methodology. Unfortunately it bears little to no resemblance of what actually occurs in other religions regarding the idea of the problem of good and evil...and for that matter even the more complex ideas of good and evil as it has been taught in Christendom for the last 2000 years as it has been taught by its more sophisticated thinkers. This is "sunday school" level theology and is used to disparage other faiths and promote evangelical Christianity...but in grade school level thinking.



What works for you, on the other hand, is your business and what you're entitled to and likewise for us, one would hope.


And yet, here at the end, a redemption. Like pulling the newly baptized from the water, a moment of true tolerance. Why not just leave the post at this and we could all be brothers and sisters at peace, with opinions differing and leave out all the castigating bitterness and digs listed above? Now lets all go into the common area for coffee, cake and sandwiches and fellowship
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 81
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/20/2010 1:20:05 PM
How about I just pick one poster and go to a private area for a continued explanation of what heaven can be like~ sounds like more fun to me.
 ForRumOnly
Joined: 3/16/2009
Msg: 82
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heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/20/2010 2:14:06 PM
IMO, heaven and hell are fiction, as are most religions (I except Taoism and Buddhism, as they are more philosophy than religion, and don't posit a deity). However, the usual concept of heaven seems incredibly tedious - more like hell in some ways. If everything is perfect, there is nothing to strive for, no sense of accomplishment, no goals, no failure or strife to overcome and form a basis by which the good and pleasurable can be measured. There needs to be change and challenge in order to achieve happiness - when it's simply there, all meaning is lost.

My idea of heaven would be a better earth - where everyone would be free to pursue happiness without the war and poverty that seems the be the normal state of affairs. Everyone would have the opportunity to pursue their desires and goals, use their creativity, but not harm others. It won't ever happen, of course, but that's as close as I can come to a concept of heaven.
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