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 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 83
heaven- a punishment or a reward...Page 4 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
My irony meter just red-lined and broke again...I see that a lot from certain posters...have to get it re-calibrated for them..

Yeah, but I look at the trip to the neighbour's yard to retrieve the needle to be a refreshing pause.

Those who follow Jesus Christ, who believe the bible, recognize that we do not get into heaven by our works, but instead by our faith in Jesus Christ as an intercessor for our sins.

I understand that you believe this, but I don't understand how some basically good people can actually APPROVE of such dispicable behaviour by the entity they worship. It's a very, very evil thing that god would be doing if this was true. You can't see that? Really?

Hence, why I despise the idea of such a place that would welcome Jeffery Dahmer, Henry Lee Lucas, David Berkowitz, et al, and refuse entry to Samuel Clemens, Carl Sagan, Johannes Brahms, et al.

Basically, because how you live your life matters not to this deity, an epitome of unreasonable, ...if you just change your mind before you die and utter the secret passwords and let it know that you think it's the peachiest keen thing in all of, ....well not existence, ....'cause then it wouldn't be an invisible thing would it?

It is possible (and quite reasonable) to both; not believe in any of the many and myriad invisible being mythos in ALL its versions, flavours and subdivisions; while having particular disdain for those mythos which promote ->

- not taking responsibility for one's actions
- not being accountable for one's actions

Because in this world view; in regards to both the positive and negative aspects of being a member of society, it doesn't matter what you do (works) as long as you let the invisible unsubstantiated being know that it's "the best", ...invisible unsubstantiated being there is.

In the light of reason, natural law, a recognizance of the "greater good" and basic human dignity inclusive of altruism: This Heaven (and its caretaker) is seen as a contradiction to what can be demonstrated as "good". Further, those who believe that their faith puts them in a "better than" class than others, are also seen as elitist (without merit) and intolerant by those who see the contradictions.


Perhaps a little tolerance for other people's points of view that are different from your own might be in order

Yet, the intolerant claim that those who won't tolerate their intolerance are... the "intolerant of intolerance" ...yeah, there's that redundant label thing again, remember? "god-less atheist"? It's such a neat trick, ...isn't it?


We cannot create our own salvation or be our own savior.

Save by uttering the prescribed secret passwords of "-insert mythos here-"

We are not gods/god.

Obviously, the idea of gods/god has never been demonstrated to be independently verifiable, ...so it's not a big stretch. The big stretch is when a person of faith takes it upon themselves to press their personal belief on others or in places outside the purview of theological practice. To some of us, this is just as obscene as a person picking their ass in a restaurant...

That simple.

That's a version of heaven I want nothing to do with, I'd rather hang out in hell with Carl and Sam listening to Brahms tickle the ivories....

...even if the air conditioning's broke

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

~Epicurus

Anyway, I kept knock knocking on heaven's door and thank goodness he finally answered.

I wasn't wearing any clothes.

Yeah but that long trip from the airport was hell... But, yeah, my idea of heaven has beer, wine, and a lot of nekkid you n' me in it.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 84
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/20/2010 5:45:23 PM
Hence, why I despise such a place that would welcome Jeffery Dahmer, Henry Lee Lucas, David Berkowitz, et al, and refuse entry to Samuel Clemens, Carl Sagan, Johannes Brahms, et al.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Places" don't do things. "Places" don't "welcome" people or "refuse entry."


From my dictionary application:


verb [ trans. ]
greet (someone arriving) in a glad, polite, or friendly way : hotels should welcome guests in their own language | [as adj. ] ( welcoming) a welcoming smile.



"This monkey's gone to heaven..."~The Pixies

VVVV Exactly, Krebby...
 Free-At-Last
Joined: 7/15/2009
Msg: 86
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/20/2010 8:09:16 PM

heaven- a punishment or a reward...

Who knows...but one thing I know for sure is this:
If there 's no chocolate in heaven, I ain't going!!
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 87
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heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/20/2010 8:17:03 PM

For the Christian it's not about doing the right thing in order to externalize morality ...
I noticed.

That doing the right thing stuff doesn't appear to be all that popular for an awful lot of so-called "Christians". I've often wondered why. So it's not about the "doing others good deeds" ... it's just that you "believe". So it's not about treating others with kindness and respect ... it's just that you "believe". That appears to be the almighty "ticket" to heaven.

It's like as long as they "believe" ... it doesn't matter what horrendous or despicable things they do ... they're still "okay". It's "allowed". They can do no "wrong" ... as long as they just "believe" ... are "saved".

Sounds a lot like "LA-LA Land.

LA-LA Land ... now that just could be "HEAVEN"?

If that's the case ... I'm totally at peace without it.
 southernlass
Joined: 5/2/2006
Msg: 88
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/20/2010 8:28:26 PM
Kind of some overkill here, don't you think, on a thread regarding our own personal view of heaven?

Me thinks some of you do protest too much.

It must really suck to perceive of one's self as on the outside looking in, based upon your posts here, and to be so resentful to the extreme about it.

God isn't keeping you out of heaven, you're obviously choosing this state of being for yourselves, based upon what my bible says. You want to change this? Sit down with a bible and read it. If you have any ability whatsoever to understand the English language, it won't be that difficult to grasp what Jesus Christ Himself states brings you eternal life and thus "heaven."
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 89
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heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/20/2010 10:29:33 PM
I have read some strange interpretation's of the bible from some people but wow.I guess love one another be compassionate help the poor,that just goes out the window.Know wonder I became an agnostic.BTW having those feelings are not the sole domain of the religious.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 90
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heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/21/2010 6:31:48 AM

I guess love one another be compassionate help the poor,that just goes out the window.
My more religious patients have told me that while I'm not "religious", they consider me for very "spiritual".

Personally it's my opinion that if anything is going to get someone into heaven, it's going to be "spirituality" ... not repeating "I believe in Jesus" 100 times so that all sins will be washed away.

Quite simply, I have no interest in any kind of "heaven" one way or the other. I am also mostly unaware of my so-called "spirituality" (that others speak of), but I do enjoy the feeling I get when helping others add quality to their lives.

(Hint ... sometimes just giving someone a hug adds quality to their life. You don't have to be out there spewing all kinds of crap about Jesus this or that in order to be "spiritual". )
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 91
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heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/21/2010 7:11:13 AM
"Those who follow Jesus Christ, who believe the bible, recognize that we do not get into heaven by our works, but instead by our faith in Jesus Christ as an intercessor for our sins. We cannot create our own salvation or be our own savior."

I guess this explains why there is so much hypocrisy among the most professed Christian leaders in the US who get caught with their pants down, pedophilia, torture and genocide, and hands full of dirty money. "You shall know them by their fruits" as the man intoned after the Sermon on the Mount. Seem to me that most cherished piece of Jesus' teachings was all about our works on Earth with one another. By the above widely above widely accepted "logic"/faith, one can do anything one wishes on this earthly plain, no matter how uncaring or downright vicious, but salvation comes to anyone when the magic words are spoken and the Christ-o-matic gives you a sin-enema and a get out of hell free card.

There are over 935 different Christian cults in the US alone. They have wildly divergent views on what heaven is, how to get there, how to behave here, who is going there and what "fruits" the sermon referred to. I am pretty sure from the interpretations I have read of the Beatitudes, that Christ was admonishing people to treat one another better, to take care of the least among us, tend to the poor and disable, to love one another and to not use the power of His LOVE as a bludgeon upon others. I doubt that Christ would appreciate all the false prophets that are leading mainstream cults and the posers and politicians wearing Him on their sleeves in the US today. I sincerely doubt that widespread pedophilia was not on his list of fruits we should be known by.
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 92
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heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/21/2010 9:13:13 AM
(Hint ... sometimes just giving someone a hug adds quality to their life. You don't have to be out there spewing all kinds of crap about Jesus this or that in order to be "spiritual". )


I agree.

I'm not going to get into the whole divinity debate with anyone As I stated I'm agnostic I have no clue if there is a heaven but The message I always got from what Jesus said was eloquently stated by earth puppy.Be compassionate help others when possible etc.My own personal belief is He had a lot of good teachings mostly to do with loving one another.But people can find inspiration from anything really watching a sunset,petting your dog helping an elderly neighbor by shoveling there drive way etc.
Volunteering at an animal shelter,hospital,old age home.When I bring my dog to an elderly care home you should see there eyes light up.
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 93
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/21/2010 12:23:27 PM
'For the christian it's not about doing the right thing to externalize morality, nor is it about the decision to become god or our own savior." then later "but instead by our faith in jesus Christ as an intercessor for our sins."

Hmmmm, alot of trouble here. A lot of religious groups, seem to abide this notion of forgiveness in some way, while at the same time embracing their own form(whatever that might be) of morality. Now I don't know anybody who hasn't wronged(my view of the sin word) and short of making amends and gaining respect and forgiveness from the wrongee(?WORD?) I don't understand how some being omnipotent or not can step in for you.

Further it seems to me, that a whole bunch of the people who embrace this concept, don't seem to have a problem laying guilt, judgement and their own "moral values" on the rest of us in society. But according to these thoughts, I guess it's OK, cause even though you do those things, because you believe, "HE"(whoever that maybe) will forgive you. Again hmmmm, need a mighty thick rug to sell that one in my mind.

Putting aside the thread concept for just a minute(not hijacking, just noting) isn't it the job of all of us(at least those who still feel) to try and do the right thing(ya know, golden rule kinda thingy) and things of that nature, be the best you can just for your community(family, town, city, state, country, world) whatever size you can handle, and try not to fuk over anybody else or at least make amends or aknowledge the wrong?

See here's the problem as I see it with the end of this post "Now lets all go into the common area for coffee, cakee and sanwiches and fellowship"

Yeah except if your doctor who does abortions, then you must check the sammie, for a slather of drano. Or if you question the teachings of that particular church or wish to see them taxed as a corporation, you need to see if the coffee looks a little yellow from somebody pi....g in it. It seems we can only be "brothers and sisters at peace" if we see it your way, and not disagree.

Frankly this kind of behavior concerns me more than whether or not there is a heaven & he11. Because if someone, anyone can get you in there despite, your prejudiced, jaudiced views and actions, why would I want to be there with you?
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 94
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/21/2010 3:56:56 PM
You get an "A" if we pretend to be in heaven as a reward for good behavior...
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 96
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/21/2010 4:22:44 PM
Everyone that can give me a little heaven as a reward will always get an "A"........
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 97
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/21/2010 7:18:48 PM

And that it's seriously creepy that some people think that's OK.

In so many ways

Where you get the "furious" concept is a mystery to me.

Projection

The problem with waiting for "heaven", especially if the requirements for entry are so based in self-concern as a means to an eternal award is; you have a belief that promotes the secret password approach over living life selflessly, ...it's no wonder it inspires contempt.

Especially when there are those who realize that contributing to a greater good is a means to a heaven on earth, one that can't be found by mere lip-service to a mythical being. Furious? no... contempt, yes.

I wouldn't trade my piece o' heaven for all of mythical heaven's castles in the clouds, ...'cause those castles, jus' like the clouds

...are just so much vapor.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 98
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/22/2010 1:12:58 AM

Yanni band

Ewww... the Hell soundtrack, puhleeeese!

Pearly Gates

...is the name of Billy Gibbon's '59 Les Paul, that's no vapor brother....

Could it be that heaven and earth are not truly separable?

S'what I'm sayin'!

Heaven is real, not some pie in the sky entitlement.

Amen
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 99
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/22/2010 5:04:55 PM

Don't rightly know. Them that know the Good Books well don't ever talk about it.

Nope, I reckon the harps git in th' way.

My own readin' ain't revealed nothing about them. Went over this here thread -- again, nothing.

Um, ...post#89, 115, ...just sayin'

Reckon it remains a mystery of life.

Nope, it IS heaven on earth (sigh).
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 100
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/22/2010 9:48:16 PM
There's always an old standby for the "other" place "Highway to Hell" by AC/DC
 rustytraveler
Joined: 4/30/2007
Msg: 101
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heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/24/2010 4:20:53 AM
wrote this awhile back on a blog,

"It is interesting that what a lot of religion seems to come down to is the need, desire, wish and hope of many people... that something better will happen 'after'. I can understand it in third world countries where people have real basic problems of strife, hunger and illness, guess I'd be looking for some voodoo too... but in the West, in the 21 century??? I think pretty much everyone has most of their fundamental needs met here, most of us do have a roof, full bellies, a tv and a pc... so why all this uproar about a difference of thought... why should they care where to send me 'after' ? I sure have a pretty good idea where they'll end up .. Mulch, just like me.. and not such a bad fate either... we'll make things grow for the next batch, that's the way life as we know it works.

I've never quite understood why an afterlife is necessary, because if you wake up every morning knowing that this is 'it'... the Big Enchilada... maybe just maybe, you do better today, you're nicer, more tolerant, more appreciative, less jumpy, less fearful, more accepting, understanding.... because you know this is our one shot at living well... or as best we can and passing it on to others... why waste a minute of it in negativity or Saturday confession so you can re-sin again on Monday or sending other people to hell and damnation because they don't believe what you do? Where is the growth, responsibility and morality in those supposed Christian values?

We live in a miraculous universe, on a beautiful planet... a lot less blather about useless ideologies and quite a bit more responsibility, appreciation and gardening skills are in order...for the benefit all."
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 102
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/24/2010 11:42:04 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
First point - nobody knows for certain what out-of-body experiences really ARE. For all we know, they may be nothing more than highly lucid dreams.

Second - if fear of punishment in an afterlife is the only thing preventing you from stepping on kittens, then you are a sorry individual indeed...
 rustytraveler
Joined: 4/30/2007
Msg: 103
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History
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/24/2010 11:15:42 PM

Sorta tells me that we spend too much time in the "middle" -- not taking time for the "little but meaningful" things, nor stretching out as far as we're capable.


Well there it is..... the art of living each day as if this is heaven on earth and the last day of our lives and being accountable for our ideals and actions now... I don't really need a book to have compassion, a conscience or a mind ... and I can pretty much eliminate any desire to smoosh kittens.
Maybe if everyone wasn't so busy hedging their bets and starting strife one religion to another... they would simply be more tolerant and humane.
But the human animal is a fickled beast isn't it?
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 106
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/25/2010 11:45:26 AM
Specifically the Papyrus of Ani records that one must confront 42 different gods and confess that they have not broken any of the specific sins that these gods watch for. And the gods do not ask "Have you ever" as in a dialogue, the penitent soul simply confesses:



A second second trial was that the deceased would have to recite a negative confession "when [she or] he descends to the hall of the Two Truths." In the statement, he or she swore that they had not engaged in specific behaviors while alive. According to Egyptologist Ahmed Osman, one translation of the statement reads:

"Hail to thee, great God, Lord of the Two Truths. I have come unto thee, my Lord, that thou mayest bring me to see thy beauty. I know thee, I know thy name, I know the names of the 42 Gods who are with thee in this broad hall of the Two Truths . . . Behold, I am come unto thee. I have brought thee truth; I have done away with sin for thee. I have not sinned against anyone. I have not mistreated people. I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . .

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10cl.htm

The law codes that many people believe created by the Hebrew faith are predated by so many other law codes that it bears mention, especially Hammurabi and the Egyptian law codes and these spells/confessions of the spirits from the Book of the Dead.

While the OP was discussing whether the Christian ideal of heaven did it for you or not, I think it's germane to explore where their idea of heaven had it's origins. It seems pretty clear that it developed from earlier polytheistic faith traditions in the near East but eventually got sanitized and puritanized for the prudish and restrained new flock who's worst fear, compared to the pagan world, was that someone, somewhere, might be having too good a time
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 107
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/25/2010 11:59:32 AM
wtf - crazy

It's all relative, isn't it?


sanitized and puritanized for the prudish and restrained new flock who's worst fear, compared to the pagan world, was that someone, somewhere, might be having too good a time


Here's the take on who goes to heaven according to the often contradictory interpretations of what has been described at RationalWiki as:



Christianity in a nutshell

Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.


Hah ha... according to the various interpretations...


Some theories on exactly what people need to do to be saved are:
Faith and works: The Catholic and Orthodox churches take a meritocratic view, claiming salvation through both faith and works (the RCC also has a heavy investment in social services in most countries in which it is active). This means that you need to believe in the sacrifice of Jesus and lead a good, moral, charitable life.
Sola fide: Many Protestant believers, on the other hand, subscribe to the doctrine of sola fide ("by faith alone"), in which good works are unnecessary for salvation.[2] Some Protestants maintain that baptism into the church is required for salvation, while others take a more decentralized view and hold that it is simply believing that does it; this is a process known as "becoming saved" or "being born again".
Unconditional election: This is a central tenet of Calvinism. In Calvinism, people have no free will; God is in complete control of the universe, and therefore God is the one who decides whether they have faith or not. Consequently, God must choose who is saved and who is not; those who are saved are known as the "elect," and have been elected unconditionally with no regard to the beliefs or actions of each individual human. Today, hyper-Calvinism, on which Dominionism is based, takes this idea to its logical extreme.
Universalism: This holds that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all humanity's sins regardless of personal acceptance.
Not thinking about it too much: Many Christians aren't really sure what they believe; they just try to lead good lives and hope for the best.

Might as well buy a lottery ticket



Great site: http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page

 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 108
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/25/2010 1:45:38 PM
Guys, I dont make fun of your beliefs. I dont shove mine around either.
What we are is what we are, and we can all accept each other as is.
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 109
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/27/2010 4:00:42 PM
Excuse me young man but what your comment says to me is you are not a nice person.
How ever there is even hope for you.
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 110
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/27/2010 5:15:38 PM

How dare you criticize my religious beliefs!


If your beliefs can't stand up to a little criticism, it's time to re-evaluate them altogether.
 PregnantLady
Joined: 3/1/2010
Msg: 111
heaven- a punishment or a reward...
Posted: 4/30/2010 8:30:00 AM
I hope to make it to Heavan.. so I guess reward
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