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 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 76
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History
full custody and how?Page 4 of 14    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)
Your perception of men not wanting custody based on your ex? Good example.
But the numbers don't lie. Money worries are paramount to instability in relationships, marriage and most especially the raising of children but we already covered that one.
Once again seeing as your not a man I doubt very much that you have chatted up a lot of divorced women with kids and also unlikely have read as many profiles of divorced women with kids with the word student appearing somewhere on it.


That you assume that my perception is based merely on my experience with my ex husband is an example of your unwillingness to face facts! Certainly, I don't browse the profiles of women. In the real world, however, I meet MEN. Men who cry about not having enough money to pay their bills, but offer to take me on vacation, even pay for sitters for my kids. Men who complain out of one side of their mouth about not spending enough time with their kids, all the while complaining out of the other side about my not being available often enough, as I have kids to attend to. It works both ways. I am fully aware that it is more difficult for the man who wants full custody, just as I am fully aware that it is unlikely that the majority of men desire full custody. Of course, the fact that I tend to spend time with women in similar situations to mine, ie. divorced, with children, is meaningless, too, right? Spare me!
The numbers say nothing more than that many more women than men have full custody.


And I guess you have also selectively ignored the other female posters here who have defended their education or the attainment of one as paramount to being able to properly give their kids the best shot at life.
But I guess that could my perception on things huh?


Apparently, it is, as I have an education & properly care for my kids. That doesn't mean, however, that my priority is earning money, and that is the impression given by the poster I was responding to. Having money, in & of itself, doesn't make one a better parent. My perception is that I was a better parent when I was home full time, with the children when they were young, and less stressed about life in general. Lest we forget, many are the posts related to questioning the fact that some mothers, particularly those with no input from the child's father, choose to seek assistance so that they can further their education in order to provide for their children. Of course your perception colors your argument; EVERYONE'S perception colors their argument. I fail to see your point.
 kissmyasthma
Joined: 12/4/2009
Msg: 77
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/11/2010 8:30:47 PM
Epic fail you mean don't you?
No this thread is about the major difference between genders and how they attain custody and much like the mandatory thread it IS based on body parts.

A woman walks into a court room with a vagina and boobs and very little doubt.
A man walks in after spending 50 grand and maybe comes out even. And I do mean maybe.


I think maybe you should try to meet a better class of men.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 78
view profile
History
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/11/2010 10:26:44 PM
Are you really ignoring the fact that many women walk into a court room alone? That many a man never even bothers to show up? Are you unwilling or merely unable to acknowledge that at least some percentage of men use "the unfairness of it all" as an excuse to gain their freedom from the ensuing responsibility of having their kids full time, placing blame on the other party? I have seen that women attain full, sole custody by default, more often than not. That the few men who do seek custody may have an uphill battle isn't the whole story, even if you'd like it to be. Women who abandon their children aren't any less deadbeats, but they simply don't abandon their children as often, whether you desire to acknowledge that or not. The fact that more men do doesn't mean that all men do; it simply is what it is. More women who lose, or give up custody of their children default on cs. That doesn't mean that all women are less likely to support their children. Those are, at least, logical statements.

I never had a lawyer in family court; as for divorce court, I spent thousands, simply to get my ex to sign the agreement HE had drawn up, and containing not one thing that wasn't statutory. I have only seen a parent with legal representation in family court on a hand full of occasions. I have not once seen a man ask for even joint custody in court. The men I know who do have joint custody are fair minded, logical individuals who are able to put aside any bitter feelings towards their ex in an effort to do what is best for their children. Men & women alike, as I have experienced, who are able to truly take the best interest of their children to heart, "suck it up" when it comes to what is fair, and do the right thing. This is not a "tits and ass" argument, and we all have doubt.


I think maybe you should try to meet a better class of men.


I am not speaking merely of my experience with my ex. I have seen case after case in the court room; none of the participants were known to me personally. I didn't see a comment from you at all toward the man whose post I was responding to. Methinks you are in the class of men I avoid. Refusal to accept the reality which leads to the uphill battle for those who choose to climb, is not attractive.
 barefootkitten
Joined: 12/17/2009
Msg: 79
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/11/2010 11:01:10 PM
What I find disturbing is the bashing of single mothers who go back to school. Speaking as "one of those women", what the hell are we supposed to do? We get bashed if we sit on welfare and bashed if we go back to school so we can support our kids. If a person has a child before they get a post-sec education, should they just toil away at a minimum wage job and live below the poverty line while they're raising their kids?!

Many of us who chose to go back to school after having kids did it SO we can provide for our children. Don't bash people for doing this. It's FAR more responsible than sitting on the dole and most certainly sets a better example for one's children.

I know you can go on and on about how people should wait until after they get their education and are married to have kids and what have you, but life doesn't always work on "shoulds" and doesn't always go according to plan. Sometimes you have to make the best of what hand you are dealt. And no one needs people bashing them for doing what's best for them given the situation they have.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 80
view profile
History
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/12/2010 3:55:45 AM
Not getting bashed by me for going back to school. That is a way to improve your ability to provide for your children. If your getting public help you are getting bashed for that. If you say, "well I can not do it without public help", then you are getting bashed for having the kids before you should have also. If your doing it on your own, my hat is off. Even if your getting public help and getting more schooling your odds will improve, but having the kid before you were ready to provide for it, that will get you bashed. You see lots of people do it the right way. For those that did not, you have to live with your actions and in-actions; this is part of life. If you want a free pass, not getting it here. I find it disturbing that people want a free ride with no bashing, even when they messed up.
 barefootkitten
Joined: 12/17/2009
Msg: 81
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/12/2010 8:07:29 AM
The problem, freetime, with that assessment is that you are judging people based solely on YOUR values and working on the assumption that the right choice for you is the right choice for all people. Not everyone was raised in the same circumstances you were or even hold the same values you do. That does not necessarily make them wrong, it just makes them different.

I've heard many men on these forums state that women who get pregnant should "just have an abortion". I find it thoroughly disturbing how cavalier some can be about it. Now I'm not pro-life that I think abortion is wrong, it just wouldn't be the right choice for me, and there are MANY women who feel that way. An unexpected pregnancy has life-long effects whether you carry that child to term or not. In the end, a person needs to be able to live with their decision. To me, I would feel like a murderer, and I simply wouldn't be able to live with myself. I recognize, however, that other women may not feel that way, and if they don't, then maybe abortion is the right option FOR THEM. But it's not right to judge others based solely on what you would do because YOU AREN'T THEM. It's easy to be out of the situation and pass judgment, but until you've actually been in that situation yourself, you really have no right to judge.

Now for me, being on welfare was not an option. It just isn't how I wanted to raise my child. BUT, putting myself through school was also very hard work, and I recognize that not everyone is willing/able to do that. Some people have medical issues that may restrict their ability to work and have to live on social assistance. You simply don't know the reasons why some people are on assistance, yet you seem to be assuming it's all the same reason that the women are lazy and don't want to work. Life isn't as black and white and you seem to be painting it to be.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 82
view profile
History
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/12/2010 9:19:42 AM
"It's easy to be out of the situation and pass judgment" Lets see would you ever pass judgment?

"I've heard many men on these forums state that women who get pregnant should "just have an abortion". I find it thoroughly disturbing how cavalier some can be about it."

"Grow up and pull your head out of your a$$ and realize you really know****sh*t about what it's like to be a single mother."

"In the end, it all boils down to personal responsibility. I take responsibility for my choices of having a child with a man that obviously wasn't ready to be the father he claimed. "

" can't speak about your nephew or his situation eraser, but if he has 3 children by 3 women, then he obviously was choosing not to protect HIMSELF unless he was trying to get them pregnant. If he didn't want to get them pregnant, then HE should have insisted on a condom or not had sex with them."

It took me less then two min to get these lines from your post. Some I might even agree with, but that does not make them any less judgemental. You see kitten, we all judge others. You do too. Life is not all ways black and white, some times there are blood splatters in it too. Other times, as my kids like to say, it looks like a rainbow vomited other there. That is how they like to say life can be quiet colorful. I think getting bashed a bit for being on the dole is a good thing, because it works as a disincentive for some to not go on the dole and for others it motivates them to make better choices in their life so they will never end up on the dole. If a few people get their feelings hurt, well I can live with the grays in life too.
 kissmyasthma
Joined: 12/4/2009
Msg: 83
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/12/2010 9:38:23 AM
What I find disturbing is the bashing of single mothers who go back to school. BFK

You want to see it as bashing, it gives you an excuse to strike back.
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 84
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/12/2010 4:36:42 PM

Many of us who chose to go back to school after having kids did it SO we can provide for our children. Don't bash people for doing this. It's FAR more responsible than sitting on the dole and most certainly sets a better example for one's children.


No problem with this premise...but why are you not prepared before you were a parent...and why is the option of returning to school after children not available for both father and mother without the stigma of being a deadbeat parent...as woman love to suggest a parent own up to their responsibilities...


Grow up and pull your head out of your a$$ and realize you really know****sh*t about what it's like to be a single mother. Maybe try being less of a pompous prick and realize that there are many of us single mothers who do well by our children without the fathers' help


Maybe your own head needs to be deflated and understand the inequalities that exist or double standards which frustrated many men?....And long over due, single parenthood is really not that difficult...or at least for those who work full time and do not have a need to fall on the sword of martyrdom. I have greater admiration for parents who are raising their children and demonstrating how to have a successful marriage. That is I would suggest a far more difficult job than being a single parent....but the urban myth of single mothers does enable you to whine...poor me...I have it so hard!!!


I also believe in personal responsibility.


Do you???
Then stop using the other parent as a reason you are not able to provide for your child!
See statistics about custodial fathers versus custodial mothers and who is most likely to be employed full time and then being able to provide for their children.


I believe BOTH partners have that responsibility just as BOTH partners have the responsibility to own up to any resulting situation (whether it be pregnancy or some disease) that comes from their CHOICE to have sex and with whom they CHOOSE to have it.


Your choice and owning up to your responsibilities....yet your daughter is also your responsibility financially so when you lack financial resources....it is equally your fault...yet the blame or accusation only seems to be on one party?


When I was a student struggling to support my child, that $100 a month would have meant that she could have done the sports she wanted, or go to the museum and see the things she wanted to see, or any number of the other things I had to tell her no to because every cent I had went to rent/food/utilities/university. Now that I've finished and am working, I could care less if I saw any of it. My child had to go without when I was working towards creating a better life for her because her father chose to walk away from his responsibilities.


Your daughter had to go without because of her father and because of you. You had a child without being prepared. Rather than working and providing for your responsiblity you went to school so her missing out was a result just as much by your not working to provide for your child.

Now if he was the one going to school would you have been as generous about pinvesting in yourself ...Society long talks about men having to stand up or man up and assume their responsibility and provide for their children. I have no problem with that....but when is it time that the same responsibility or expectation be applied to the woman in society.

After all you long talk about equality and equal rights...with that comes equal responsibilities and equal treatment ....time has long gone when you get a free ride or not be questioned when you hide behind the label of student...SAHM or part time working while whining and being indignant when supposedly men are not paying what you feel they should .





Difference is, as an NCP, if the CP restricts access to your child, you have legal recourses available to you to enforce your right to be there. As a CP, if the NCP does not want to be involved, there is nothing that can be done to force them to.


Really?? Perhaps you might like to illustrate where you can go to enforce these rights? Without repeatedly going back to court to have those rights enforced as the police and social agencies suggest it is a legal issue and they will not enforce it. There are cases where the ncp is or has gone to court no less than a dozen times before the court actually reversed custody and started to enforce the intent of the actual original documents...and for many...the number of years has resulted in a fracture in their relationship that will probably never be repaired or the time never recovered...by perhaps you know how or where this "legal resource" exists....
 lynaudio
Joined: 2/11/2007
Msg: 85
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/12/2010 4:51:26 PM
Hey hold on folks, I thought this thread was looking for suggestions on how to get granted custody. So you ignore my suggestion, assume defeat, and go straight for the unaffordable appeal. Sheesh try ta be nice.

If you take a look at the Canadian guidelines, you will see that the system first supports 50/50 joint physical custody, with an income table to sort out support payments. Each case is then examined on its individual merits. You do not need a lawyer, all the information is readily available, and for those who don’t like to read, there are courses available in every city, usually in the evenings.

If you want custody, when do we talk about the children? As a mother I want to know that my child is safe. When she is away from me, I hope she has someone who will hold her while she cries. If she is hurt, I hope she has someone who will put emotions aside and act. But when the crisis is over, I hope she has someone who will truly comfort her.
I hope she has someone who will take the time to celebrate her accomplishments, and listen to her dreams. Maybe even dare to inspire her. For me that does not have a price tag. I give her that, but also recognize that it is to her advantage to have the same lesson (that she is a valued individual) from as many sources as possible. Wouldn’t it be great if her father were one of them.
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 86
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/12/2010 9:16:15 PM

If you take a look at the Canadian guidelines, you will see that the system first supports 50/50 joint physical custody,


No where has that ever been advocated or made available. Now joint custody where the primary living arrangement with the custodial parent//the mother is available and supported whenever the two parents are able to co-parent...but the joint custody is decision making choices of significance...with all day to day decisions residing with the custodial parent...so joint custody means diddly squat as you get nothing more than access every other weekend and joint decision making in what school... of...religious decisions...and that would just about be it...

So the suggestion of joint physical custody is erroneous.

But prove me wrong.....I would welcome the knowledge that Canadian family courts favour or advocate joint physical custody!

But I do read....and have done a fair bit of reading to understand and be prepared....and I challenge you to show where in fact this has ever been legislated or upheld in a court as a starting point. You are either deliberately misleading...or badly informed.

Or perhaps one needs to improve their reading and comprehension skills?
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 87
view profile
History
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/12/2010 9:30:28 PM
Gotta lu ya, lynaudio!

It is hard not to respond, both because some things are very close to the heart, and because some are SO obtuse, SO judgmental, SO adamant that they and only they, have all the answers, for everyone! Thanks, though.



Really?? Perhaps you might like to illustrate where you can go to enforce these rights?


Maybe it is dependent upon where you live, but in NY, you simply show up at your agreed upon time. papers in hand. If the cp refuses to allow access, dial 911, present the papers; voila! It happens every day.

It is not enough to say that one shouldn't have had children before they were ready. People do have children before they are ready, that's a fact. Does that mean that they should be so defeated that they do nothing to attempt to better the lives of their children, or expect to be bashed if they do? Do you assume that only women are responsible for the children born to a woman unprepared to care for them alone? Only women should not be entitled to do anything to better themselves? Are you advocating that fathers who had kids before they were prepared for the responsibility have a recourse? So, they take off, avoid paying cs, have no contact with their children. Now she wants to go to school, so she CAN provide for them. Only she is at fault? That certainly seems to be your insinuation. Should she simply take off, as he did? Shirk her responsibility entirely?

Hindsight is not only 20/20, it's convenient as an argument intended to judge those who make mistakes, all the while avoiding a solution. Solutions begin NOW, as opposed to what should have been, and, fortunately, they are not subject to you approval, freetime.
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 88
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/12/2010 9:51:23 PM

Enforcing Your Visitation Rights
If you've already got a custody order, how do you enforce it when the custodial parent doesn't honor it? If it's an occasional problem, try to be flexible in rearranging your schedule. Make sure you make up the missed time as soon as possible.

If the problem persists, you'll want to document the violations of the order before seeing an attorney. An easy way to document violations of a custody order is with a simple calendar, writing notes about the time lost with your child and your efforts to reschedule the visits. After you can show a pattern of behavior, you can work with a lawyer to get the order enforced in court.

In many states, consistent violations of a custody order can be grounds for changing custody, especially if the custodial parent is alienating the children with negative remarks and withholding information about the children from the noncustodial parent.

In most states, the police will assist you in enforcing a visitation order. But you'll want to think carefully about the impact the appearance of police officers on their doorstep may have on your children. Sometimes simply threatening to get the police involved will coerce the custodial parent into honoring the visitation order.

One mistake many non-custodial parents make is to threaten to withhold child support when the custodial parent withholds visitation. There is no legal connection between the right to see your child and paying your child support, and a judge may hold your failure to pay your child support against you when you finally make it to court to enforce your visitation rights.


Now here i thought the use of 911 was for emergencies? The support is also supposed to be there in Canada but the police often suggest they have real issues they have to deal with and tell you to go back to court to get a judgement...which again you have to try and get the police to help support or have followed....and if they for some reason choose to leave when you are picking them up....proof can be a little difficult.

I am not advocating that individuals are not able to improve themselves...so if you choose to go back to school is that an option that both the father and the mother can exercise?

Woman do it all the time....if a father was to do it you would be screaming he was a deadbeat and was not supporting his responsibilities.

What is good for the goose is not for the gander?....so if you enable a woman to not work and not be finacially responsible why is the same not accorded to the fathers when they desire not working and wanting to go to school?

all i am suggesting is apply the rules to both the mother and the father...in terms of shirking finacial responsibilities....but going back to school is something good for the mother...and ducking or under-employing oneself if you are a father.
 lynaudio
Joined: 2/11/2007
Msg: 89
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/12/2010 10:00:30 PM
ahuhn...so we still don't wannan discuss the children.
Look man...you've got google... try : custody, child support, guidelines, Canada
We start at 50/50. Biatch if ya like. But it won't win ya alot of points.
 barefootkitten
Joined: 12/17/2009
Msg: 90
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/12/2010 10:18:53 PM
Tealwood, no one is stopping fathers from going to school at all if that is what they so choose. The only discrimination that exists is in your own head. A father has every right to go back to school just as a mother does. However, that does not absolve him of his responsibility to his children either. Just as a mother who goes back to school still has to support their children, so does the father. The children still have to eat whether their mother OR their father is at school and BOTH parents have an obligation to make sure their expenses are covered regardless of school bills.

ANY parent, regardless of gender, who does nothing to support their children is in dereliction of their responsibilities. Going back to school is the right choice for many. After all, these days, unless you already have your post-sec education, you're probably going to be working minimum wage. And as it's been pointed out, it's easy to point a finger and say what people "should" do, but that's not always the way life works. I was quite young when I had my child and personal circumstances had prevented me from being able to go to uni right after high school, so I had to work for 4 years to qualify for student loans before I could go. In that time, I got pregnant (despite using birth control). I had my child, then put myself through school so I could support her. It wasn't always the easiest way, but it's worked out fine for us and I wouldn't have it any other way. So I put myself through uni without any cs from my child's father. If he wanted to go back to school, he'd have every right to do that too, but to him, it was more of a priority to quit his job anytime cs enforcement found him and tried to get him to help support his child. You see, there are MANY of us who put ourselves through school and STILL manage to support and raise our children. Do you honestly believe that just because someone is a cp or receives cs that they don't spend equal, if not more, of their own money on the care and upkeep of their children?

As a note though...cs orders are not fixed in stone. If the father is going back to school and his income has changed dramatically as a result of that decision, then he can petition to have the cs payments lowered. But mothers who choose to go back to school still have that child to support, so what makes you think that a father should just get a free walk from that obligation if he chooses his RIGHT to go back to school too?
 My I
Joined: 1/23/2007
Msg: 91
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/13/2010 2:40:14 PM

If the father is going back to school and his income has changed dramatically as a result of that decision, then he can petition to have the cs payments lowered


Well... you may be drastically wrong.
If a man payiing support returns to school for upgrading\bettering his chances for higher earnings, it can be deemed as "voluntarily underemployed". Women do not face that dilemma because in the courts mind, the father must maintain his level of income in order to secure the best interests of the child.

Even if the payments do get re-adjusted while in school, it will be for the school term and he may very well be ordered to reinstate the past payments while also reporting any improvement to his income resulting from higher education.

Can't say I ever heard of women experiencing such treatment.

As well, a custodial mother can petition the courts for "extraordinary" expenses to offset her costs for returning to school. He can be ordered to pay for daycare, transportation and possibly be ordered to pay toward her education, under the guise of paying child support.

Maybe men should only date women who already have an education and good paying job. If not, they may be stuck with supporting her to get an education.... and in Canada, this is a very common occurrence in family courts.
 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 92
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/13/2010 5:12:21 PM

Maybe men should only date women who already have an education and good paying job. If not, they may be stuck with supporting her to get an education.... and in Canada, this is a very common occurrence in family courts.


ha ha men will never do that though. Oh if only men thought like that you men would save yourself so much grief. But more ofthen then not thats not what attracts a man to a woman. That kind of wisdom only comes from age.


Yeah, men tend to be really stupidly romantic, believe that the woman they love really DOESN'T think money is important, and think this will never change......

... fvcking idiots.....

Women love to equivocate, obfuscate and blustercate about how life just happens to them, causes them to be stuck having kids without a viable means of supporting themselves and their spawn, but it's just so much bullshit.

EVERY person should be taking care of themselves, being PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE by being able to support themselves under ANY circumstances before they spawn. Period.

Ought there be exceptions? Of course. Will there be true 'accidents'? Yes. Are the number of 'accidents' and 'unforseen anomolies' mostly a load of hooey? Abso-fvcking-lutely.

People need to teach their kids to be responsible. People need to live responsibly. People need to stop believing that FATE is a reliable decision-maker.

/rantoff

 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 93
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/13/2010 6:16:01 PM
Of course the consequences of our poor judgement do vary but please keep in mind that hindsight is always 20/20 and it is so very easy to sit in judgement of the decisions people make with ALL the facts known.


Of COURSE it's easy to sit in judgement...

... why the heckinheimer do you think they (the Gods) put ME on the bench?





Edit to add:

People need to stop believing that FATE has each person's best interests at heart. FATE doesn't give a shit. If FATE has any influence, He/She throws shit out there willy-nilly and fvcking laughs His/Her A.SS off at the stupidity of the herd.

And, as usual -soul, I'm still waiting for the pics....



why the heckinheimer do you think they (the Gods) put ME on the bench?


probably because the Gods have a twisted sense of humour like me...


... ever find a Coca-Cola bottle while going walkabout in the desert?

... me too....

... still can't figure out why the fvck it landed there for me to find......

(... I realize it's a bit of an obscure reference.... but this is a test, only a test...)


 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 94
view profile
History
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/13/2010 7:00:02 PM

Well... you may be drastically wrong.
If a man payiing support returns to school for upgrading\bettering his chances for higher earnings, it can be deemed as "voluntarily underemployed". Women do not face that dilemma because in the courts mind, the father must maintain his level of income in order to secure the best interests of the child.


I am not sure how you know what is in the "mind" of the court, but, since approx. 1/3 of single parents who are women work full time, yet remain below the poverty level, as opposed to about 1/10 of single fathers who work full time do so, I suspect the issue isn't gender motivated at all. "Can be" is not the same as "is always the case". I would rather be faced with the "dilemma" of not earning more than the dilemma of working my azz off, only to have to feed my kids potatoes for dinner 3 nights a week.


Even if the payments do get re-adjusted while in school, it will be for the school term and he may very well be ordered to reinstate the past payments while also reporting any improvement to his income resulting from higher education.

Can't say I ever heard of women experiencing such treatment.


Truth is, since income is based on the income of the payer, women would only experience this "treatment" if they were the ncp. Based on custody, not gender.


As well, a custodial mother can petition the courts for "extraordinary" expenses to offset her costs for returning to school. He can be ordered to pay for daycare, transportation and possibly be ordered to pay toward her education, under the guise of paying child support.


This is true, although I have never heard of a man ordered to pay for a woman's education as part of cs itself. In any case, I do think that most caring parents would (most ncps who pay cs) acknowledge that doing so enables the cp to better care for the children they love & feel responsible for. Temporary, in any case, and I imagine an offer to provide child care personally, rather than pay for it, would be entertained by the court.


Maybe men should only date women who already have an education and good paying job. If not, they may be stuck with supporting her to get an education.... and in Canada, this is a very common occurrence in family courts.


Maybe they should. That's a personal choice, and one would hope that someone who feels as you do would make that choice. Still, it doesn't mean that there is something "drastically wrong" with stating that fathers can petition the court to have cs payments lowered. Ncp's do make such petitions, and they are granted where they are deemed warranted., not based upon gender, rather upon validity.
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 95
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/14/2010 4:57:58 PM
Look man...you've got google... try : custody, child support, guidelines, Canada
We start at 50/50. Biatch if ya like. But it won't win ya alot of points.


I have google and I have some of the statements and speeches by Senator Anne Cools...and if I can be blunt...one of us is a complete fool.....so why do you not try to find a link and a web site that illustrates in Canada it starts at 50/50 joint PHYSICAL custody. Your wording not mine.

Talk is cheap lyn...put something concrete on the table...because the courts do not change without any real changes in the family/divorce act which is Federally Legislated...

So act like the beetch all you want but i suggest//state there is no 50/50 premise of joint physical custody anywhere in Canada.

But prove me wrong...and I will apologize profusely and tell all that you proved me wrong!


Tealwood, no one is stopping fathers from going to school at all if that is what they so choose. The only discrimination that exists is in your own head. A father has every right to go back to school just as a mother does. However, that does not absolve him of his responsibility to his children either. Just as a mother who goes back to school still has to support their children, so does the father.


I agree anyone can go back to school...but the child support required is based on having to work full time and if you do not work full time they extrapolate what you would have earned had you worked full time...i.e. imputed income and the guy falls behind as he cannot pay the full cs obligation and the cost of education while working part time and going to school full time.


Do you honestly believe that just because someone is a cp or receives cs that they don't spend equal, if not more, of their own money on the care and upkeep of their children?


I have a very good understanding of the costs raising children. Been doing it since 2002 without cs and very little assistance finacially from their mother. But then i work full time and at a good job that i have developed and worked hard at. I also have paid all the extra expenses including before and after school-care...daycare in the summer and two sets of braces....so I would suggest i have an appreciation of the money required to raise children without seeing the holy grail of child support to augment my income or augment part time earnings if i was one of those play time parents.

I will repeat it again....a father does not get a free pass while he is going to school...nor does a woman get a free pass while she also returns to school...either one is a deadbeat if they live off the system or are unable to supply the necessities for their child.


Maybe men should only date women who already have an education and good paying job. If not, they may be stuck with supporting her to get an education.... and in Canada, this is a very common occurrence in family courts.


Now that is today's definition of a trophy wife...a rare breed someone very unusual....something not found here on this dating site as they probably have no problem finding dates...unlike some of the part time workers who cannot understand why they keep getting hit on as a cheap booty call...or why the guys blame the children they have rather than the truth of..I cannot afford a part time worker who is unable or unwilling to earn their own finacial requirements.

LOL


I am not sure how you know what is in the "mind" of the court, but, since approx. 1/3 of single parents who are women work full time, yet remain below the poverty level, as opposed to about 1/10 of single fathers who work full time do so,


So it is our fault...that woman are making poor choices...or choices that are not finacially rewarding?

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/11/study-shows-girls-find-high-school-science-to-be-ho-hum.ars


Studying the science gender gap at the high school level

Fewer women than men pursue scientific education, and fewer still pursue a scientific career—this may be well known, but it's far from well understood. Researchers from Northern Illinois University have released preliminary results from a recent study of high school science classes, when students first have the opportunity to pursue science in earnest. The research looks at the relationships among classroom activities, gender, and instructors to pin down exactly what is turning girls off science.


But the woman are flocking to the cosmetology classes....

But your numbers might be questionable as is your reasoning??

The New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/04/magazine/04FOB-wwln-t.html

78 percent of the jobs lost during this recession were held by men.

In addition, women are concentrated in lower-paying industries, like health care and education, where there have been fewer layoffs, rather than in higher-paying realms, like finance, construction and manufacturing, which have contracted. Why this is true has long been an economic chicken-and-egg question — are these professions less lucrative and prestigious because they are predominantly held by women, or are they predominantly held by women because men are less likely to take them given their lower pay and status? But whatever the cause, the end result is that the “female” professions have not suffered as much this past year.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 96
view profile
History
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/14/2010 5:23:18 PM

I agree anyone can go back to school...but the child support required is based on having to work full time and if you do not work full time they extrapolate what you would have earned had you worked full time...i.e. imputed income and the guy falls behind as he cannot pay the full cs obligation and the cost of education while working part time and going to school full time.


Where I live, cs is based on one's most recent paystubs, or perhaps tax returns. Income may be imputed, if there is a dispute as to the amount, and either party can return to court to adjust based on a change of circumstance/hardship, regardless of their gender.



So it is our fault...that woman are making poor choices...or choices that are not finacially rewarding?


I am not sure to whom you are referring when you say "our" fault. Although I was questioning your assumption that you know what is in the "mind" of the courts, it seems you are talking about men. Do we assume, then, that men have no choice in the matter of whom to marry, or lay with? Priorities; if it is important to you that your potential future ex wife earn an amount sufficient so as not to have to rely on you for cs, that is a choice you make. For many married couples, they place a priority on someone actually raising the children, and that person bears the opportunity cost, as far as earning power. It is only after they split that suddenly, the ncp feels the need to decide that the cp should have been "better prepared".

We can discuss the reasons why female cp's are more likely to live below the poverty level, but it doesn't change the fact that they are. I used the fact as evidence for what is in the mind of the courts, in relation to your statement. That is an aside. To support the notion that a parent who is likely to raise children in poverty who desires to attempt to make a better life for their children is not the same as to support any parent who chooses to forfeit income (and responsibility to their children) simply because they desire to earn more. There is a difference, and it's not gender specific. A "free ride", where education is concerned is based on income, not gender.
 kissmyasthma
Joined: 12/4/2009
Msg: 97
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/15/2010 5:52:11 AM
The reason women tend to end up in poverty is that they chose to marry a stable man hoping for a fairytale. Either he turned out to be one of the 50 percent that fool around or got bored, they were counting on a two person income of sorts to raise the offspring.
There seems to be a misconception as far as the half of everything scenario when it comes to divorces. Well unless you're fairly well off or at least accumilated something then maybe it isn't so bad.
Consider though that far too many are under the illusion of wealth when in fact Visa or mastercard owns more of your stuff then you do.

As usual ohwhybother, you've taken it upon yourself to find yet another place to be annoying. Yay you.

This thread is just asking how you got custody. If you wish to talk about something else start your own thread.
I know that could prove difficult. It would involve independent thought and a desire to wish to find answers.
 lynaudio
Joined: 2/11/2007
Msg: 98
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/15/2010 9:04:52 AM
It saddens me that you think the starting point is a court room. Here in Canada custody falls under provincial jurisdiction. It is my understanding that all provinces are largely accepting of the federal guidelines. Here in NB the first step is to attend a course called “For the sake of the children”. Its purpose is to educate separating parents about the affects separation can have on the children, and to provide parents with strategies to minimize the negative affect.

Step number two is to explore the possibility of mediation. It is only when mediation is eliminated as a solution that there is any necessity of court involvement. As is the case with any mediation, the mediator chooses what they perceive to be a fair starting place. The starting point for mediation in the custody process is shared custody, also referred to as joint physical custody. This means that each parent has physical custody at least 40% of the time.

Only after custody has been decided is support looked at. And only in the case of shared custody is the income of both parents considered. In the case that one parent is decided as the primary residence, support payments are based on only the non custodial parent’s income. The custodial parent’s income is not considered.

In the event that, the individual circumstance of the family, requires the intervention of lawyers and judges, the initial focus is still on custody. Preference is usually given to the parent who was the primary care giver to the children prior to the breakdown of the family unit. The person who routinely wipes the snotty nose, gets up in the middle of the night to comfort a crying child with an ear ache, rearranges his or her schedule to accommodate PTA meetings, etc. The philosophy is based on, securing for the child, the most emotionally secure environment.

Nowhere is it stated that one gender is prefer over another. The courts don’t tell families how to divide parental responsibilities within an intact family unit. However in the event of family breakdown requiring legal intervention, the court bares the responsibility of maintaining, as best it can, that the child’s emotional security is protected.

Sorry that my answer to your question does not include a list of web addresses citing chapter and verse of court cases. But when the system works best, as designed, the process never enters the courts, except for submitting the final papers.

If full custody is really what you desire, be the primary care giver and support your partner’s endeavors to further his or her career.

A year or so past, I helped a friend through the process and did much research on his behalf. His ex was very difficult and he had to turn to a lawyer. His lawyer advised that he seek shared custody. Papers were drawn up and readily accepted by the courts.
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 99
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/15/2010 2:06:48 PM
It saddens me that you think the starting point is a court room. Here in Canada custody falls under provincial jurisdiction. It is my understanding that all provinces are largely accepting of the federal guidelines. Here in NB the first step is to attend a course called “For the sake of the children”. Its purpose is to educate separating parents about the affects separation can have on the children, and to provide parents with strategies to minimize the negative affect.


Actually you never asked or made a suggestion about where the starting point should be in attempting to find find solutions for custody issues. I happen to agree with the premise you are advocating for...but with that also comes an understanding of the legal realities.

But your original belief was....
If you take a look at the Canadian guidelines, you will see that the system first supports 50/50 joint physical custody, with an income table to sort out support payments. Each case is then examined on its individual merits. You do not need a lawyer, all the information is readily available, and for those who don’t like to read, there are courses available in every city, usually in the evenings.


then you suggest

Canada custody falls under provincial jurisdiction. It is my understanding that all provinces are largely accepting of the federal guidelines.




In Canada, family law is primarily statute-based. The exclusive jurisdiction of the federal government handles marriage and divorce under section 91(26) of the Constitution Act, 1867 and is legislated under the Divorce Act. Pursuant to the Divorce Act and relevant case law, the federal government has jurisdiction over custodial and access matters and spousal and child support during or after divorce.[1] The provinces have exclusive jurisdiction over the solemnization of marriage under section 92(12) of the Constitution Act, 1867 and jurisdiction over spousal and child support, property division, custody and access, adoption, and child protection as part of the provincial government's jurisdiction over property and civil rights under section 92(13) of the Constitution Act, 1867 and jurisdiction over matters of a private nature under section 92(16) of the Act. Each province has an Act that addresses the rules of property division.[2]


This is the legal basics of the divorce/family act in Canada.

Now if your mistaken understanding of how things worked was actually written into legal reality I would be very supportive of that legislation by the Federal Government.

But give you a little hint...most if not all womans groups are philosophically opposed to the suggestion of legislation starting with the premise of 50/50 joint physical custody.


Nowhere is it stated that one gender is prefer over another. The courts don’t tell families how to divide parental responsibilities within an intact family unit. However in the event of family breakdown requiring legal intervention, the court bares the responsibility of maintaining, as best it can, that the child’s emotional security is protected.


I would be very foolish to ever suggest that in any manner there is legislation that suggests this...but case law....is there where in contested custody cases....80% is found in favour of the mother....

Perhaps going back to that premise



For years many courts followed what is known as the tender years doctrine. The tender years doctrine is essentially a doctrine that states that the mother of children in their tender years is the preferred parent to have custody of the subject children when the issue of custody is being litigated.


but while no longer officially followed the courts still feel that the best interest of the child is found with the parent they believe was most constant or influential in the early years..

The Court will consider who looked after the child while the parents lived together, what each parent’s plan for the care of the child is following the separation, the degree of bonding between the child and the prospective caregiver, as well as the amount of time that the parent has to spend with the child. But essentially when you have two parents who appear equal and the courts have to fall one way....case law and averages fall in favour of the mother as there is nothing suggesting 50/50 joint physical custody in the Canadian Family Act which would support your mistaken belief.

Now if you remember I made mention of exit strategies? An exit strategy for men looking to gain 50/50 joint physical custody or sole custody is to take over the all day to day care of the children if you know the marriage is rocky. You continue to live in a lousy or poor relationship undertaking all day care duties...not a fair share...all duties for at least 2-3 years...so that it is well established the role and influence and emotional importance you have on the children...it might improve your chances in court....might...

But feel free to join a number of the mens group who are fighting or advocating for those exact legal standing principles of a presumption of joint 50/50 physical custody of their children.

That is the reality of the legal system in Canada...and I have not even touched having to pay spousal support or allowing unbalanced division of assets as a tool to avoid going to court and perhaps losing even larger finacially...

and lyn...I was doing anything and everything to avoid walking into to court as more than one trial lawyer in offering advice and legal strategy said avoid at all costs...as you will in all probability lose. And with that loss perhaps lose any meaningful control over your children if your ex is unwilling to be co-operative.

So 5 yrs before my marriage ended i had advice from 2 lawyers...and after the separation when custody was left in my hands....with all financial equity going the other way....I kept my mouth shut...I paid all the bills and did not ask for anything in return and believed then and still do today that i was far richer enjoying the time with my children....And that was following the advice of 3 lawyers who were are active in going to trial in family court situations.....Exit strategies......

Lyn...I have one very terrible character flaw....I hate to lose...or i am very competitive....and my children and time with them are very important.

But i am always open to knowing new things or being corrected when I am wrong when it can be demonstrated and illustrated through credible mediums. The exception of who I might listen to is CS? LOL
 lynaudio
Joined: 2/11/2007
Msg: 100
full custody and how?
Posted: 5/15/2010 5:08:17 PM
Thank you for the wonderful post Tealwood.


Lyn...I have one very terrible character flaw....I hate to lose...or i am very competitive


Not a flaw when tempered with compassion. To think otherwise would make me a hypocrite.

Our children will do us proud.
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