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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?      Home login  
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 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 251
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?Page 11 of 23    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23)

Greg Palast does great investigative work. To me this one is no exception.
http://www.truthout.org/behind-the-arizona-immigration-law-gop-game-to-swipe-the-november-election58877
Palast and others contend that it is the LEGAL hispanic population that is being targeted with Jim Crow type law to
intimidate voters to tend to vote Democratic two to one.
snip..
"What moved GOP Governor Jan Brewer to sign the Soviet-style show-me-your-papers law is the exploding number of
legal Hispanics
, US citizens all, who are daring to vote - and daring to vote Democratic by more than two-to-one.
Unless this demographic locomotive is halted, Arizona Republicans know their party will soon be electoral toast.
Or, if you like, tortillas.

Well, if you can't stop the people from voting one way ... another way would be to just lock them up so they can't
vote. Doesn't matter if they're locked up under false pretenses ... just get them locked up.

In 2008, working for "Rolling Stone" with civil rights attorney Bobby Kennedy, our team flew to Arizona to investigate
what smelled like an electoral pogrom against Chicano voters . . . directed by one Jan Brewer.
Brewer, then secretary of state, had organized a racially loaded purge of the voter rolls that would have made
Katherine Harris blush. Beginning after the 2004 election, under Brewer's command, no fewer than 100,000
voters, overwhelmingly Hispanic, were blocked from registering to vote.
In 2005, the first year
of the Great Brown-Out, one in three Phoenix residents found their registration applications rejected."

Almost sounds like what they did over here in Ohio when so many people were told they couldn't vote because
their name was no longer on the record in a precinct they had been voting in for more than 20 years. The names
had either mysteriously vanished or were eventually located in a different precinct and the voters never found
out until it was too late to vote and additionally were not offered a provincial ballot.

Sigh ... voting scams of the Republicans know no limits.




The above link shows it is not just Mexicans but also terrorists crossong the border.

I'm not suprized in the slightest. I know sooner or later it will happen. All it will take is a major terrorist to come
into our country undetected through Mexico before something is finally done about this.
^^^ Thank-you , I'm glad someone else can see some logic here.

It definitely wouldn't be difficult to pass off a Middle Easterner as a Mexican, it isn't racist, it's fact.

Oh great ... more ethnic profiling to be encouraged in Arizona ... because ALL "Mexicans and
Middle Easterner" type people are such threats to our nation's safety.

Who do you all plan to target when it comes to so-called "terrorists" of the more "pale" type ... like Timothy
McVeigh and Terry Nichols? Aren't they former military personnel? So should we now start being on the look-out
for or start screening former military personnel for possible "terrorist" acts?
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 252
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/23/2010 9:12:28 AM
I appreciate Nobushlover and OMGWTF! doing the nuance dance and legality nip-picking on terms like probable cause, reasonable suspicion, reasonable searches etc.

However, these are mere words that are highly subjective, open to a wide latitude of interpretation, particularly when you are dealing with cops with agendas in jurisdictions where the cops, lawyers, and judges are working in concert against people with little to no financial resources or connections with which to challenge violations of their rights.

I have experienced first hand, what two cops and a black German Shepard can do to one person beside the road in the dark of night. Though multiple rights were violated, thousands were spent fighting, what my first lawyer called a "no-brainer", the system prevailed via the multiple levels of corruption in that jurisdiction. They cranked out hundreds of these constitutionally violated cases a day in that courthouse, the vast majority against minorities and those from out of state who opted to plea bargain rather than go to the expense of repeated trips and playing the lawyer lotto.

Unless you've been exposed to such a scenario, it would be easy to believe that the system still works to protect our rights over all else. After that experience, I lost a considerable amount of faith in the system and justice for all. The black and hispanic folks I talked with over the months of fighting it, were terrified of the prospect of ever passing through that area again. These sorts of corrupt jurisdictions are not confined to the border states and seem to be becoming more widespread in the post 9/11, post Constitutional world of the US. Despite all the intellectual nit-picking on terminology, the US has changed it's views toward rights in the past decade.

As anti-Constitutionalist Bush noted ""Stop throwing the Constitution in my face. It's just a goddamned piece of paper!"
Asnd as hatemonger Malkin noted, "I have to tell you, in general, I’m skeptical of anything that has Bill of Rights tacked on to it.”
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 253
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/23/2010 10:02:22 AM
However, these are mere words that are highly subjective, open to a wide latitude of interpretation, particularly when you are dealing with cops with agendas in jurisdictions where the cops, lawyers, and judges are working in concert against people with little to no financial resources or connections with which to challenge violations of their rights.


Bingo. It also appeares that "search" and providing proof of citizenship are somewhat interchangeable. However, this law won't be killed because there is no possibility of having reasonable suspicion lead to probable cause. It won't be killed because of the possibility of wrongful arrests (every law has that problem). It maybe killed because it steps over federal laws. But there is no doubt that asking for id or proof of citizenship is constitutional, not providing it is also your right. However not providing can get you arrested all on its own (Higel vs Nevada) or it can be used in conjunction with other factors in producing probable cause to arrest someone (Brignoni vs Ponce). It has to or there is no possible way to enforce this law other than at the border. And that's going to work about as well as any historical great wall has.
 MondoVman
Joined: 4/26/2009
Msg: 254
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/23/2010 11:35:17 AM
^^Ok, Evil It (presuming your above bit is honest, though far off-topic) - Life in your crime infested neighborhood really suckS, evidently! (small ugh). And, as implied, your traffic cops shake their heads while writing you people up for violations. (now, the condescension: Boo hoo, shame for you.) Question: And you penned all of that for us because of your illegal immigration status too, since this thead is about AZ and about illegal immigration?

AZ is doing what none others have. The illegals will leave. Yards will either be overgrown or not. AZ and America will either starve or not. AZ will be a state free of illegal persons regardless those persons stripe, dogma, level of civility, and law-abiding (sic) nature.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 255
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/23/2010 7:29:37 PM
Now, defending the bill of rights is the domain of "children".

Now, suddenly, the defense of Constitution is "childish" despite the whinyness of the 2nd ammendment cafeteria Constitutionalists were so tellingly silent for the last decade as the 1st, 4th, 5th and other amendments were trashed with the zealotry of the past decade.

The Constitution and Bill of Rights are convenient tools when the apply to the white right, but when they are discarded for the others in our midst and other Americans protest these assaults on their freedoms, they somehow now become sources of "whineyness". The Double Standard Bearers of the far Reich always fail to surprise the real Americans. Just a tiny bit of consistency would be surprising. When they come for white American bigots next, don't be surprised. You got what you wished for. After all, LAW, is more important than justice, fairness, rights, and the godamned piece of paper called the friggin Constitution that started this mess of rights, duties, and respect. Gott Mit Uns.
 MondoVman
Joined: 4/26/2009
Msg: 256
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/23/2010 8:41:24 PM
When you quoted the word "children", did you simply mean the common word "children", the plural of "child", or did you mean some special liberalized definition of the word?

If the latter, please either define the 'children' you meant or simply state, as I suspect, you want more undeserved attention paid to your ramblings by placing quotation marks around common words.

If you meant the former, i.e. the common word "children", then Yes, I meant to write "children" (sans quotation marks) in post 451.

Only an adult child politico would state AZ law enforcement is responsible for the U.S. border.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 257
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/24/2010 3:49:22 PM

If the Mexican people want to come to the US..please do so legally!


I am totally sure that most of the Mexican people who want to come here to work would like to have a way to come in legally. From what we know their labor in the agricultural fields is very much wanted. However, the restrictions on border crossings instituted by politicians who don't care about the best interests of the working people who provide an important service to our economy, have created this situation in which people risk staying here illegally rather than risking their lives to cross back and forth.

The people who are profitting the most from the current situation are the coyote partnerships working on both sides of the border and the smuggling gangs who control access through the border areas that they dominate on both sides.

Now, why would politicians refuse to change such a system?
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 258
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/24/2010 4:55:43 PM


If the Mexican people want to come to the US..please do so legally!
I am totally sure that most of the Mexican people who want to come here to work would like to have a way
to come in legally.

They just need to be refugees and any number of them can come into our country ... go straight on Welfare,
get subsidized housing, get full Medicaid health benefits, get food cards, get government grant funded educations
complete with books and transportation benefits. As a refugee they don't even have to go to work. But that
doesn't describe the majority of the Mexicans I know.

I wonder if we could get them in here on "political asylum"? They're bringing a lot of the refugees here because their
lives are in danger. Mexicans' lives are in danger too ... look at all the death that has occurred with the drug wars.

The Mexicans who want to be here don't really have their hands out. They're hard workers and many
work multiple jobs in order to support themselves. Most that I know who are here (not sure what their
legal status is and don't care) ... are not looking for handouts and more than anything want to work. They're
the ones lining up at the labor pools ... unlike the Americans who will not lower themselves to do
"labor pool" work.

They mow lawns, they work construction, they pick up trash along the road, they bus tables and do dishes at
restaurants, they bag groceries and carry them out to cars and gather carts from the lots, they wash cars, they
load cars at the lumber yards, they work pot-hole filling crews in the dead of winter (now that's a desirable job).
I just don't see Americans lining up for those jobs. The teens will be out of school soon, but they will not be
lowering themselves to do any of those jobs.

Tell a teenager to get a job at a fast food restaurant over the summer and they act like you're asking them
to take poison!! If a job for them doesn't open up that will allow them to hang on their phones and text all day
... they're not interested.

The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law ... ethnic cleansing. Now they're gonna go after the teachers
with "accents"
.

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0524/arizona-cracks-teachers-accents/
Arizona cracks down on teachers with heavy accents
Monday, May 24th, 2010 -- 12:34 pm

Arizona has been under fire for a controversial anti-illegal immigrant law and now its Department of Education
is embarking on a course of action that many critics also believe is being enforced in a discriminatory fashion.

"The Arizona Department of Education recently began telling school districts that teachers whose spoken
English it deems to be heavily accented or ungrammatical must be removed from classes for students still learning
English," The Wall Street Journal reported.

"This is just one more indication of the incredible anti-immigrant sentiment in the state," said Bruce Merrill,
a professor emeritus at Arizona State University who conducts public-opinion research.
....
Nearly half the teachers at Creighton, a K-8 school in a Hispanic neighborhood of Phoenix, are native Spanish
speakers. State auditors have reported to the district that some teachers pronounce words such as violet
as "biolet," think as "tink" and swallow the ending sounds of words, as they sometimes do in Spanish.

These teachers "are very good educators who understand the culture" of their students," said Ms. Agneessens,
Creighton's principal. "Teachers should speak grammatically correct English," she acknowledged, but
added, "I object to the nuance of punishment for accent."

"It doesn't matter to me what the accent is; what matters is if my children are learning," said Luis Tavarez,
the parent of sixth- and eighth-graders at Creighton.

Christina Parsons was born in Brazile and has taught the English Language Learners class in Tucson for more than
20 years, but she told CNN that she has been subjected to an audit based on her ability to pronounce English words.

"They just walked in in the middle of class," she told CNN's Thelma Gutierrez.

State School Superintendent Tom Horne denies the crackdown is based on teachers' accents. "We are not
going after any accents including Spanish accents. It has to be faulty English. If students are being taught
English and they're going to refer to a comma as a 'coma' people are going to misunderstand them,"
said Horne.

But studies have shown that non-native teachers actually make better educators, according to University
of Arizona professor Roseann Gonzales. She says that the ability to pronounce the language is not the
most important aspect to learning.

"Language is very contextual. We depend on the context to understand what words mean," Gonzales told CNN.

Parsons is still waiting on the results of her audit. "The Arizona Department of Educations gives us a
certificate saying, 'Yes, you are certified to teach.' After that they say, 'No, I don't think you can do it so I'm
going to go into the classroom and see if you are doing a good job.'"

CNN anchor Kyra Phillips disagrees with the new policy. "Would a guy like the Governor of California be
allowed to teach kids how to learn English? Arnold's Austrian accent is as thick as his biceps but his English
seems to be just fine," remarked Phillips.

"I was also going to give a graduation speech in Arizona this weekend. But with my accent, I was afraid they
would try to deport me," CBS News reported the Republican governor joked in his speech at Emory University.

"Their accents reflect who they are and where they came from. What's more important? What teachers say or
how they say it?" Phillips wondered.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 259
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/24/2010 5:18:17 PM
However, the restrictions on border crossings instituted by politicians who don't care about the best interests of the working people who provide an important service to our economy, have created this situation in which people risk staying here illegally rather than risking their lives to cross back and forth.


You don't think Mexico is only thinking about their own best interests? You can see that when Calderon talked about that in congress, but mentions nothing about their own immigration laws. How hypocritical can he be when his laws are 10 times as more strict then our own. People are going to have to say no eventually. People who think our immigration laws are sooo...bad need to really compare Mexico's immigration laws to our own. In fact any countries immigration laws to our own. I suppose some people prefer to not have boarders and throw caution to the wind.


have created this situation in which people risk staying here illegally rather than risking their lives to cross back and forth.


We are not to blame for Mexico's problems, they created their own. Put the blame where it really belongs.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 260
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/24/2010 7:56:13 PM

The US (both the gov't and private citizens) have undoubtedly, undeniably, and intentionally helped to create the illegal immigrant problem that we have today. It would not be helpful for us to ignore that fact, and I am glad that, in general, we are not.


If we created such a immigration problem, we should see a similar immigration problem with Canada, but we don't. If Mexico's economy was the same or similar to ours, we would not have the immense problems we do now.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 261
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/24/2010 10:53:44 PM

If we created such a immigration problem, we should see a similar immigration problem with Canada, but we don't.
If Mexico's economy was the same or similar to ours, we would not have the immense problems we do now.


Soooo then ... what's the "real reason behind Arizona's Immigration Law?


It's ETHNIC CLEANSING ... and they think it's not only constitutional, but legal.

I can't wait for all of this to be declared illegal ... in some way.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 262
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 3:07:15 AM

Soooo then ... what's the "real reason behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
It's ETHNIC CLEANSING ... and they think it's not only constitutional, but legal.
I can't wait for all of this to be declared illegal ... in some way.


Um....no. We have a lot of other illegal immigrants from other countries as well. Its just easier for Mexico, as their right at our boarder. Like from immigrants from Cuba going into Florida for instance. Remember at one time it was a bad problem with all the boat people. Other immigrants letting their students visa expire and they don't go to school any more ( I know someone personally, who's boyfriend did this. ) But they are still in the country.

I would call it illegal immigrant cleansing, as its not dependent on race, but immigration status that matters.

Oh, lets see how the treat of immigrants in Mexico go, as reported by Amnesty international: http://amerpundit.com/2010/05/20/amnesty-international-widespread-abuse-of-migrants-in-mexico/
 davidsauvignon
Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 263
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 8:19:59 AM

Personally, I think the "clear path to citizenship" route is the way to go at this point to resolve the issue of the millions who are already here illegally. Anything else is completely unrealistic... and again, since we were active participants in creating this problem, we should own some of it. This is one way to do that.

I can appreciate that. Way back in this thread (or was it the other 'immigration' thread that's closed?) I stated that a big part of the onus was on the employers of the illegals...the need to demagnetize the incentive(s). If the 'path to citizenship' is what is decided as the compromise, one caveat *I* would like to see as a prerequisite, is that before being allowed to stay, a background check is performed. Those who have broken the law while here (besides coming here illegally), should be deported. They should also follow the same guidelines as the people who chose to do it the 'right' (legal) way, e.g. language, civics, pass the natualization test, etc.

I think they have the right to enjoy and celebrate their indigenous backgrounds, cultures and histories the same as anyone else who immigrated here from Somalia, Cuba, Haiti, Jamaica or anywhere else. I also think they have a duty to participate in this society and culture. This La Raza revolucion crap needs to go bye-bye. It's divisive and does nothing but spawn the ill feelings many here have shown.

The border still needs to be addressed, though...how many times do we hear about someone who was caught and deported only to resurface and get caught again? Cracking down on those who employ illegals and choose not to use the e-Verify database. I.C.E. needs to be better organized, manned and funded...how many times do we hear about local authorities having custody of an illegal only to let them go because the Feds didn't get around to dealing with them?

These are just some of the issues. However, I doubt our elected politicians will have the fortitude to do what it takes to get 'it' right. The issue will become even more politicized than it already is and they'll merely grandstand to appease whomever their respective voting bloc is. Same shyt, different day. Que sera, sera.





~ds~
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 264
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 11:42:35 AM


Soooo then ... what's the "real reason behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
It's ETHNIC CLEANSING ...

Um....no. We have a lot of other illegal immigrants from other countries as well.

True ... we do have a lot of other illegal immigrants but what strikes me as it targeting a specific ETHNIC group is that
they are now targeting/going after the teachers with the Latino Accents as well.

And why ban that particular background study in the schools too? Why not also (for example) the German
or Chinese or Russian or Netherlands ...?


I would call it illegal immigrant cleansing, as its not dependent on race, but immigration status that matters.

Right ... I wonder if they are going to target blond and blue-eyed whites for the "illegal" Germans ... all people who
appear to be of Asian background ... so they can capture all the illegal Chinese or such illegals, and what are we
looking for when we target the illegal Russians etc., etc., etc.?

It's not about anything but ETHNIC CLEANSING ...
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 265
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 11:57:36 AM

It's not about anything but ETHNIC CLEANSING ...


Oh stop it. Ethnic cleansing implies killing people and creating an ethnically homogenous state. You're insulting those harmed in Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, China, Germany etc etc. The motivation behind your country's immigration laws is not to create an ethnically uniform race. Just ask the hundreds of thousands of legal Mexican immigrants.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 266
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 12:23:07 PM

Oh stop it. Ethnic cleansing implies killing people and creating an ethnically homogenous state. You're insulting those harmed in Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, China, Germany etc etc. The motivation behind your country's immigration laws is not to create an ethnically uniform race. Just ask the hundreds of thousands of legal Mexican immigrants.


Sorry to tell you that "ethnic cleansing" is not a synonym of "genocide." You are confusing both terms. Genocide is the term used to refer to the extermination of a group of people by killing them indiscriminately. Ethnic cleansing may include killing people, even large numbers of people from a specific group, but it also refers to all kinds of activities with the purpose of removing that group of people from a certain territory.


Ethnic cleansing is a term that has come to be used broadly to describe all forms of ethnically-motivated violence, ranging from murder, rape, and torture to the forcible removal of populations.[1] A 1993 United Nations Commission defined it more specifically as, "the planned deliberate removal from a specific territory, persons of a particular ethnic group, by force or intimidation, in order to render that area ethnically homogenous."[1] The term entered English and international media usage in the early 1990s to describe war events in the former Yugoslavia, particularly Kosovo and Bosnia.

The term ethnic cleansing is not to be confused with genocide. These terms are not synonymous, yet the academic discourse considers both as existing in a spectrum of assaults on nations or religio-ethnic groups. Simply put, ethnic cleansing is similar to forced deportation or 'population transfer' whereas genocide is the "intentional murder of part or all of a particular ethnic, religious, or national group."[2] The idea in ethnic cleansing is "to get people to move, and the means used to this end range from the legal to the semi-legal."[3] Some academics consider genocide as a subset of "murderous ethnic cleansing."[4] Thus, these concepts are different, but related, "literally and figuratively, ethnic cleansing bleeds into genocide, as mass murder is committed in order to rid the land of a people."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing

The purpose of this Arizona law and the Arizona law banning Mexican Ethnic Studies, as well as the campaign to remove teachers who speak English with a Hispanic accent should leave no doubt that their purpose is to achieve ethnic cleansing by creating a hostile environment for Mexicans, Hispanics, Latinos in Arizona.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 267
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 3:30:32 PM

Or just "urging" them, without actually doing so openly of course, to leave that territory....letting them know (again without actually doing so openly) that they are not really wanted or appreciated around that territory...


1.8million people checked the hispanic or latino/a box on the AZ census last year. It's probably safe to assume most of those are legal immmigrants or naturally born citizens. But even if every illegal immigrant tagged a box, that would still leave 1.3 million hispanic/latino/as in the state. If you're into drama, headlines, nonsense, you could call immigration laws ethnic cleansing. If it is, then every country in the world is guilty of it.


Sorry to tell you that "ethnic cleansing" is not a synonym of "genocide." You are confusing both terms.


I read the wikipedia article you've quoted as well and fail to see anything even remotely similar to ethnic cleansing happening in Arizona. Ethnic cleansing implies "leave or die", not leave and then once you're able to legally return you're more than welcome.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 268
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 4:12:56 PM
Arguing semantics again, while ignoring that the tactics are effective in creating an atmosphere of intimidation, persecution, and fear in 30% of Arizona's legal citizens. If "ethnic cleansing" is too harsh for the ears of some, perhaps disenfranchisement, Jim Crow laws, purging of voter roles, intimidation at the polls, and sanctioned apartheid are easier to digest for people who disdain jalepenos.

As Palast noted in the OP.. "no fewer than 100,000 voters, overwhelmingly Hispanic, were blocked from registering to vote. In 2005, the first year of the Great Brown-Out, one in three Phoenix residents found their registration applications rejected." Phoenix is around 40% Hispanic-American. Despite the purge and intimidation, not one illegal voter was ever turned in to the FBI.

Arizona will never succeed in cleansing the state of people of color, but the scared old white declining, temporary majority will do everything in their power to hold on to what power they have, as long as possible, willing to sh*t-can the Bill of Rights and Constitution in their panic, and strive to make AZ the Apartheid South Africa of the Americas. They are succeeding in showing how the tyranny of the majority can do mob rule via the legislative branch.

Aryanzona Reprehensives are inspiring other states to come up with their own versions of intimidation via other laws. In Tennessee we had a county official try to ban hispanics from a public park, stating that "if they speak Spanish, that's enough for me to know they are illegal. A Tennessee House of Representatives member in talking about an "english only" driver's license mandate said..."When we allowed them people to take the tests in a foreign language, the accidents went up..I ain't makin it up. This is facts."

Empowering idiots and racist shiite-heads in charge of this nation brings to mind, the words of the lil Bush...paraphrased..."Rarely is the question asked, is our legislators learning?"
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 269
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 5:36:29 PM

So the US doesn't have a share in some of the responsibility for Mexico's problems?

The US with its insatiable appetite for illegal drugs, isn't exactly the middle man. Mexico's problem here is that it lies in between the supply and the demand. I'm sure others can point out other things the US does that affects Mexico. It's a global economy and we are the number one consumer.
I think it would be difficult to find too many countries whose problems couldn't be linked....even a little bit to the US/policy.

The law in Arizona is due to fear and greed. Fear of losing clout and power, whether it is from a shift in politics, demographics, culture, and other things.


Mexico has turned a blind eye to its drug problem far too long, payoffs to the police and government don't help either. Its now ingrained into its culture and its hard for its government to get rid of it now, as seen by all the violence steaming from the drug lords. While the drug problem is not likely go away, at least America has been fighting drugs for the last 40 years. Mexico is finally doing something about it NOW.

Being a criminal is a personal choice. Because there is a demand for drugs, is no excuse for someones decision to become a drug smuggler.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 270
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 7:01:26 PM

Arguing semantics again, while ignoring that the tactics are effective in creating an atmosphere of intimidation, persecution, and fear in 30% of Arizona's legal citizens. If "ethnic cleansing" is too harsh for the ears of some, perhaps disenfranchisement


Perfect. Disenfranchisement. Much better. Why? Because throughout this thread and most threads where people are pissed off about something, words increase in severity, become more charged, more demonstrative of the effect people try to put on something until they become totally misrepresentational. The Gestapo isn't going to ask anyone for "papers", cops aren't going to randomly pick up people and drop them off in Nevada, this isn't ethnic cleansing, it's not apartheid, not even close, in fact again, very insulting to those subjected to actual apartheid in South Africa. I'm just saying it's important to understand what it is and isn't. If you're sure that it's all of those things, then your only option is to open the borders wide open and see what happens.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 271
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 8:35:28 PM

The Constitution, the highest law of the land, prohibits searches without probable cause. It is hypocritical to call for obeying the law and supporting illegal and unconstitutional searches.

That's why you will never explain how it's OK to ignore the constitution and allow searches without probable cause. Any explanantion for ignoring the constitution undermines your claim that you believe in the rule of law. You can't truly believe in the rule of law if you advocate ignoring the constitution.


Nothing is being searched or seized. Just the request for documentation to be here. In FL now to get a drivers license you have to have a birth certificate. To prove you were born in the USA.
The imagination laws already on the books say a immigrant must have the proper papers on them.
Now pray tell what is the difference in a officer asking for a driver license or a green card?

BTW the Constitution is the litmus test for all law and our protection of government taking our rights. Citizen and people are interchangeable in the Constitution. The preamble starts "WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES" Not we the people of every country in the world!
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 272
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 8:45:21 PM

In FL now to get a drivers license you have to have a birth certificate. To prove you were born in the USA.

When did they change this?
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 273
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 8:51:10 PM

When did they change this?


Alpha I think it went into effect late last year. I do know that when I changed my license from GA to FL I had to have my GA license a certified copy of my birth certificate my social security card and two pieces of mail from my new address.

I did this a couple of months ago so it is for real.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 274
view profile
History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 8:53:49 PM


Arguing semantics again, while ignoring that the tactics are effective in creating an atmosphere of intimidation,
persecution, and fear in 30% of Arizona's legal citizens. If "ethnic cleansing" is too harsh for the ears of some,
perhaps disenfranchisement

Perfect. Disenfranchisement. Much better. Why? Because throughout this thread and most threads where people
are pissed off
about something, words increase in severity, become more charged, more demonstrative of the
effect people try to put on something until they become totally misrepresentational.
What is there to be "pissed off" about?

I know I'm not pissed about anything and I haven't seen "pissed off" statements from others who find the law
offensive. What we do have are people who may never have been in this country ... much less Arizona ...
trying to tell those of us who have witnessed the "papers please" going on (long before the governor signed up
for it) trying to tell us to "cool our heels" since this is just some sort of innocent way Arizona is going to rid itself
of "illegals".

The Gestapo isn't going to ask anyone for "papers" ...
They're not? Are you kidding me? They already do that ... have been doing that since long before the governor
of Arizona signed up to "play".

I wonder if the people who stand in ridicule of those of us who have witnessed such actions have ever seen such a "sweep" in action? I wonder if they have ever been standing around having a conversation with
their friends when such a "sweep" goes down? I wonder if they have ever been peacefully sitting in the
(for me Karaoke) bar when such a "sweep" goes down? I wonder if they can even imagine what it must be
like for no good reason to just be asked to show your ID and proof of residence? I wonder if they have a
clue how those of us who were born and raised here feel about being asked to prove we have a right to be here
just because we may be hanging
out with friends who appear to be of Hispanic ethnicity? I'm sitting at a bar with my fellow nurses (from
the jail ... after work) and several of them are truly of Hispanic background ... totally legal. We're lucky
enough to find a Karaoke show still going on, and the cops come in and do a "sweep". If I had not spoken up
(after my ID was also checked) and said ... "Hey, what are you doing? They work at the jail and you want to
take them to jail for just standing here talking to me?"


... cops aren't going to randomly pick up people and drop them off in Nevada ...
Been there? How do you know that? Actually, they don't bother to transport people to Nevada ... they take
them to booking and stick them in jail. Ever worked at a jail that books such incidents? No? I have.

... this isn't ethnic
cleansing, it's not apartheid, not even close, in fact again, very insulting to those subjected to actual apartheid
in South Africa.
How would anyone who has never been in such a situation know that? Ever spoken to someone who is an actual
victim of apartheid? Ever spoken to anyone who is an actual victim of just not having their ID with them when
the cops do such a "sweep"? I have.

...I'm just saying it's important to understand what it is and isn't.
Yes it certainly is.

It's easy to sit back in the lap of a totally different country and dictate to others how they should feel about something
that is going on in their own country. I have no intent of choosing "comfortable" words to describe what is going
on (already) and what is going to take place ... to make someone who has no idea what it might be like to be involved
in such a "sweep" ... feel better about what they write here in a public forum.

I think I heard something in a movie once about people who can't handle the truth ...

The reality of the situation is that it indeed will create an atmosphere of "ETHNIC CLEANSING
... and that is not the answer to an "illegal" immigrant problem.

The answer is not to rid the schools of important classes that are dedicated to teaching our youth of such a culture ...
the answer is not to rid the schools of the dedicated teachers who not only teach the culture but teach students to speak English.

No matter how a person wants to put it ... it's
language skills that all youth need in order to be successful in school.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 275
view profile
History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 11:04:26 PM

I wonder if the people who stand in ridicule of those of us who have witnessed such actions have ever seen such a "sweep" in action? I wonder if they have ever been standing around having a conversation with their friends when such a "sweep" goes down? I wonder if they have ever been peacefully sitting in the (for me Karaoke) bar when such a "sweep" goes down? I wonder if they can even imagine what it must be
like for no good reason to just be asked to show your ID and proof of residence? I wonder if they have a clue how those of us who were born and raised here feel about being asked to prove we have a right to be here just because we may be hanging
out with friends who appear to be of Hispanic ethnicity? I'm sitting at a bar with my fellow nurses (fromthe jail ... after work) and several of them are truly of Hispanic background ... totally legal. We're lucky enough to find a Karaoke show still going on, and the cops come in and do a "sweep". If I had not spoken up (after my ID was also checked) and said ... "Hey, what are you doing? They work at the jail and you want to
take them to jail for just standing here talking to me?"


Well then, you should be thrilled with AZ's interpretation of this existing federal law because it expressly, directly and plainly forbids inquiries about immigration status unless lawful contact is made for some totally unrelated issue. So now you won't ever have to worry about the big "sweep" going down at karaoke again; unless you all are criminally bad singers.

So now we have, "papers", "ethnic cleansing", "aparthied", and "sweeps".


How would anyone who has never been in such a situation know that? Ever spoken to someone who is an actual victim of apartheid?


No. I've also never been to Brazil, but I speak Portuguese pretty well. One difference between South African aparthied and the AZ immigration law is that natural born citizens of South Africa were stripped of nearly every right they had. The Arizona immigration law is not applicable to natural born citizens nor legally immigrated citizens. Some would argue that they are actually having their rights further protected under this law. But that's just one difference. I'm hoping that's enough because the list could get very long.


What we do have are people who may never have been in this country ... much less Arizona ... trying to tell those of us who have witnessed the "papers please" going on (long before the governor signed up for it) trying to tell us to "cool our heels" since this is just some sort of innocent way Arizona is going to rid itself of "illegals".


Now that sounds patriotic at best. Should I stay in my country and shut the hell up then? Not that it matters, but I lived in AZ for ten years and still have a residence there, pay taxes there and have an interest in not seeing the state go broke. I've had my own immigration misery including being inadmissable for a time. I learned most of the Spanish I know from spending an entire summer standing on cash corner by the Circle K hoping to get day labour jobs so I could move indoors for the winter. Student visas don't allow you to work that much, so...off to screw highly reflective sheet metal to trailer roofs in 120 degree heat. I'm pretty sure I saw one guy pass out and die doing this job. No employer health care for him. Just another form of ethnic cleansing, I guess.

Anyway, it looks like the law may have had its desired effect. An extra 500 million and 1200 more military personel are heading to the state so they can do the same job but within 100 miles of the border. Not enough according to McCain, but there's plenty more where that came from, right?


The "Gestapo" wasn't asking people for papers in THAT place, in THAT time, either. This is one of the things that makes me shake as I write, because of the sheer lack of understanding of how these things happen. There actually weren't enough "Gestapo" to be on the streets asking for papers. Ordinary (NOT EVIL) law-enforcement and military people whose brains were swimming with conflicting codes and laws and regulations and imperatives and personal morals/ethics were doing the "asking for papers." And ordinary (NOT EVIL) "legal" people acquiesced, and allowed themselves to be cowed.


I think it was mostly ordinary citizens who "denounced" people for being jewish or Polish or whatever that had the Gestapo running around like crazy. Really, papers weren't even necessary. Just an informant with a grudge against you. But it's the old movie cliche that keeps the evil Gestapo officer asking for zee papers that we have here.
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