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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 276
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?Page 12 of 23    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23)

Oh stop it. Ethnic cleansing implies killing people and creating an ethnically homogenous state. You're insulting those harmed in Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, China, Germany etc etc. The motivation behind your country's immigration laws is not to create an ethnically uniform race. Just ask the hundreds of thousands of legal Mexican immigrants.


Sorry to tell you that "ethnic cleansing" is not a synonym of "genocide." You are confusing both terms. Genocide is the term used to refer to the extermination of a group of people by killing them indiscriminately. Ethnic cleansing may include killing people, even large numbers of people from a specific group, but it also refers to all kinds of activities with the purpose of removing that group of people from a certain territory.


Ethnic cleansing is a term that has come to be used broadly to describe all forms of ethnically-motivated violence, ranging from murder, rape, and torture to the forcible removal of populations.[1] A 1993 United Nations Commission defined it more specifically as, "the planned deliberate removal from a specific territory, persons of a particular ethnic group, by force or intimidation, in order to render that area ethnically homogenous."[1] The term entered English and international media usage in the early 1990s to describe war events in the former Yugoslavia, particularly Kosovo and Bosnia.

The term ethnic cleansing is not to be confused with genocide. These terms are not synonymous, yet the academic discourse considers both as existing in a spectrum of assaults on nations or religio-ethnic groups. Simply put, ethnic cleansing is similar to forced deportation or 'population transfer' whereas genocide is the "intentional murder of part or all of a particular ethnic, religious, or national group."[2] The idea in ethnic cleansing is "to get people to move, and the means used to this end range from the legal to the semi-legal."[3] Some academics consider genocide as a subset of "murderous ethnic cleansing."[4] Thus, these concepts are different, but related, "literally and figuratively, ethnic cleansing bleeds into genocide, as mass murder is committed in order to rid the land of a people."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing

The purpose of this Arizona law and the Arizona law banning Mexican Ethnic Studies, as well as the campaign to remove teachers who speak English with a Hispanic accent should leave no doubt that their purpose is to achieve ethnic cleansing by creating a hostile environment for Mexicans, Hispanics, Latinos in Arizona.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 277
view profile
History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 3:30:32 PM

Or just "urging" them, without actually doing so openly of course, to leave that territory....letting them know (again without actually doing so openly) that they are not really wanted or appreciated around that territory...


1.8million people checked the hispanic or latino/a box on the AZ census last year. It's probably safe to assume most of those are legal immmigrants or naturally born citizens. But even if every illegal immigrant tagged a box, that would still leave 1.3 million hispanic/latino/as in the state. If you're into drama, headlines, nonsense, you could call immigration laws ethnic cleansing. If it is, then every country in the world is guilty of it.


Sorry to tell you that "ethnic cleansing" is not a synonym of "genocide." You are confusing both terms.


I read the wikipedia article you've quoted as well and fail to see anything even remotely similar to ethnic cleansing happening in Arizona. Ethnic cleansing implies "leave or die", not leave and then once you're able to legally return you're more than welcome.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 278
view profile
History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 4:12:56 PM
Arguing semantics again, while ignoring that the tactics are effective in creating an atmosphere of intimidation, persecution, and fear in 30% of Arizona's legal citizens. If "ethnic cleansing" is too harsh for the ears of some, perhaps disenfranchisement, Jim Crow laws, purging of voter roles, intimidation at the polls, and sanctioned apartheid are easier to digest for people who disdain jalepenos.

As Palast noted in the OP.. "no fewer than 100,000 voters, overwhelmingly Hispanic, were blocked from registering to vote. In 2005, the first year of the Great Brown-Out, one in three Phoenix residents found their registration applications rejected." Phoenix is around 40% Hispanic-American. Despite the purge and intimidation, not one illegal voter was ever turned in to the FBI.

Arizona will never succeed in cleansing the state of people of color, but the scared old white declining, temporary majority will do everything in their power to hold on to what power they have, as long as possible, willing to sh*t-can the Bill of Rights and Constitution in their panic, and strive to make AZ the Apartheid South Africa of the Americas. They are succeeding in showing how the tyranny of the majority can do mob rule via the legislative branch.

Aryanzona Reprehensives are inspiring other states to come up with their own versions of intimidation via other laws. In Tennessee we had a county official try to ban hispanics from a public park, stating that "if they speak Spanish, that's enough for me to know they are illegal. A Tennessee House of Representatives member in talking about an "english only" driver's license mandate said..."When we allowed them people to take the tests in a foreign language, the accidents went up..I ain't makin it up. This is facts."

Empowering idiots and racist shiite-heads in charge of this nation brings to mind, the words of the lil Bush...paraphrased..."Rarely is the question asked, is our legislators learning?"
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 279
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 5:36:29 PM

So the US doesn't have a share in some of the responsibility for Mexico's problems?

The US with its insatiable appetite for illegal drugs, isn't exactly the middle man. Mexico's problem here is that it lies in between the supply and the demand. I'm sure others can point out other things the US does that affects Mexico. It's a global economy and we are the number one consumer.
I think it would be difficult to find too many countries whose problems couldn't be linked....even a little bit to the US/policy.

The law in Arizona is due to fear and greed. Fear of losing clout and power, whether it is from a shift in politics, demographics, culture, and other things.


Mexico has turned a blind eye to its drug problem far too long, payoffs to the police and government don't help either. Its now ingrained into its culture and its hard for its government to get rid of it now, as seen by all the violence steaming from the drug lords. While the drug problem is not likely go away, at least America has been fighting drugs for the last 40 years. Mexico is finally doing something about it NOW.

Being a criminal is a personal choice. Because there is a demand for drugs, is no excuse for someones decision to become a drug smuggler.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 280
view profile
History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 7:01:26 PM

Arguing semantics again, while ignoring that the tactics are effective in creating an atmosphere of intimidation, persecution, and fear in 30% of Arizona's legal citizens. If "ethnic cleansing" is too harsh for the ears of some, perhaps disenfranchisement


Perfect. Disenfranchisement. Much better. Why? Because throughout this thread and most threads where people are pissed off about something, words increase in severity, become more charged, more demonstrative of the effect people try to put on something until they become totally misrepresentational. The Gestapo isn't going to ask anyone for "papers", cops aren't going to randomly pick up people and drop them off in Nevada, this isn't ethnic cleansing, it's not apartheid, not even close, in fact again, very insulting to those subjected to actual apartheid in South Africa. I'm just saying it's important to understand what it is and isn't. If you're sure that it's all of those things, then your only option is to open the borders wide open and see what happens.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 281
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 8:35:28 PM

The Constitution, the highest law of the land, prohibits searches without probable cause. It is hypocritical to call for obeying the law and supporting illegal and unconstitutional searches.

That's why you will never explain how it's OK to ignore the constitution and allow searches without probable cause. Any explanantion for ignoring the constitution undermines your claim that you believe in the rule of law. You can't truly believe in the rule of law if you advocate ignoring the constitution.


Nothing is being searched or seized. Just the request for documentation to be here. In FL now to get a drivers license you have to have a birth certificate. To prove you were born in the USA.
The imagination laws already on the books say a immigrant must have the proper papers on them.
Now pray tell what is the difference in a officer asking for a driver license or a green card?

BTW the Constitution is the litmus test for all law and our protection of government taking our rights. Citizen and people are interchangeable in the Constitution. The preamble starts "WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES" Not we the people of every country in the world!
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 282
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 8:45:21 PM

In FL now to get a drivers license you have to have a birth certificate. To prove you were born in the USA.

When did they change this?
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 283
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 8:51:10 PM

When did they change this?


Alpha I think it went into effect late last year. I do know that when I changed my license from GA to FL I had to have my GA license a certified copy of my birth certificate my social security card and two pieces of mail from my new address.

I did this a couple of months ago so it is for real.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 284
view profile
History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 8:53:49 PM


Arguing semantics again, while ignoring that the tactics are effective in creating an atmosphere of intimidation,
persecution, and fear in 30% of Arizona's legal citizens. If "ethnic cleansing" is too harsh for the ears of some,
perhaps disenfranchisement

Perfect. Disenfranchisement. Much better. Why? Because throughout this thread and most threads where people
are pissed off
about something, words increase in severity, become more charged, more demonstrative of the
effect people try to put on something until they become totally misrepresentational.
What is there to be "pissed off" about?

I know I'm not pissed about anything and I haven't seen "pissed off" statements from others who find the law
offensive. What we do have are people who may never have been in this country ... much less Arizona ...
trying to tell those of us who have witnessed the "papers please" going on (long before the governor signed up
for it) trying to tell us to "cool our heels" since this is just some sort of innocent way Arizona is going to rid itself
of "illegals".

The Gestapo isn't going to ask anyone for "papers" ...
They're not? Are you kidding me? They already do that ... have been doing that since long before the governor
of Arizona signed up to "play".

I wonder if the people who stand in ridicule of those of us who have witnessed such actions have ever seen such a "sweep" in action? I wonder if they have ever been standing around having a conversation with
their friends when such a "sweep" goes down? I wonder if they have ever been peacefully sitting in the
(for me Karaoke) bar when such a "sweep" goes down? I wonder if they can even imagine what it must be
like for no good reason to just be asked to show your ID and proof of residence? I wonder if they have a
clue how those of us who were born and raised here feel about being asked to prove we have a right to be here
just because we may be hanging
out with friends who appear to be of Hispanic ethnicity? I'm sitting at a bar with my fellow nurses (from
the jail ... after work) and several of them are truly of Hispanic background ... totally legal. We're lucky
enough to find a Karaoke show still going on, and the cops come in and do a "sweep". If I had not spoken up
(after my ID was also checked) and said ... "Hey, what are you doing? They work at the jail and you want to
take them to jail for just standing here talking to me?"


... cops aren't going to randomly pick up people and drop them off in Nevada ...
Been there? How do you know that? Actually, they don't bother to transport people to Nevada ... they take
them to booking and stick them in jail. Ever worked at a jail that books such incidents? No? I have.

... this isn't ethnic
cleansing, it's not apartheid, not even close, in fact again, very insulting to those subjected to actual apartheid
in South Africa.
How would anyone who has never been in such a situation know that? Ever spoken to someone who is an actual
victim of apartheid? Ever spoken to anyone who is an actual victim of just not having their ID with them when
the cops do such a "sweep"? I have.

...I'm just saying it's important to understand what it is and isn't.
Yes it certainly is.

It's easy to sit back in the lap of a totally different country and dictate to others how they should feel about something
that is going on in their own country. I have no intent of choosing "comfortable" words to describe what is going
on (already) and what is going to take place ... to make someone who has no idea what it might be like to be involved
in such a "sweep" ... feel better about what they write here in a public forum.

I think I heard something in a movie once about people who can't handle the truth ...

The reality of the situation is that it indeed will create an atmosphere of "ETHNIC CLEANSING
... and that is not the answer to an "illegal" immigrant problem.

The answer is not to rid the schools of important classes that are dedicated to teaching our youth of such a culture ...
the answer is not to rid the schools of the dedicated teachers who not only teach the culture but teach students to speak English.

No matter how a person wants to put it ... it's
language skills that all youth need in order to be successful in school.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 285
view profile
History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/25/2010 11:04:26 PM

I wonder if the people who stand in ridicule of those of us who have witnessed such actions have ever seen such a "sweep" in action? I wonder if they have ever been standing around having a conversation with their friends when such a "sweep" goes down? I wonder if they have ever been peacefully sitting in the (for me Karaoke) bar when such a "sweep" goes down? I wonder if they can even imagine what it must be
like for no good reason to just be asked to show your ID and proof of residence? I wonder if they have a clue how those of us who were born and raised here feel about being asked to prove we have a right to be here just because we may be hanging
out with friends who appear to be of Hispanic ethnicity? I'm sitting at a bar with my fellow nurses (fromthe jail ... after work) and several of them are truly of Hispanic background ... totally legal. We're lucky enough to find a Karaoke show still going on, and the cops come in and do a "sweep". If I had not spoken up (after my ID was also checked) and said ... "Hey, what are you doing? They work at the jail and you want to
take them to jail for just standing here talking to me?"


Well then, you should be thrilled with AZ's interpretation of this existing federal law because it expressly, directly and plainly forbids inquiries about immigration status unless lawful contact is made for some totally unrelated issue. So now you won't ever have to worry about the big "sweep" going down at karaoke again; unless you all are criminally bad singers.

So now we have, "papers", "ethnic cleansing", "aparthied", and "sweeps".


How would anyone who has never been in such a situation know that? Ever spoken to someone who is an actual victim of apartheid?


No. I've also never been to Brazil, but I speak Portuguese pretty well. One difference between South African aparthied and the AZ immigration law is that natural born citizens of South Africa were stripped of nearly every right they had. The Arizona immigration law is not applicable to natural born citizens nor legally immigrated citizens. Some would argue that they are actually having their rights further protected under this law. But that's just one difference. I'm hoping that's enough because the list could get very long.


What we do have are people who may never have been in this country ... much less Arizona ... trying to tell those of us who have witnessed the "papers please" going on (long before the governor signed up for it) trying to tell us to "cool our heels" since this is just some sort of innocent way Arizona is going to rid itself of "illegals".


Now that sounds patriotic at best. Should I stay in my country and shut the hell up then? Not that it matters, but I lived in AZ for ten years and still have a residence there, pay taxes there and have an interest in not seeing the state go broke. I've had my own immigration misery including being inadmissable for a time. I learned most of the Spanish I know from spending an entire summer standing on cash corner by the Circle K hoping to get day labour jobs so I could move indoors for the winter. Student visas don't allow you to work that much, so...off to screw highly reflective sheet metal to trailer roofs in 120 degree heat. I'm pretty sure I saw one guy pass out and die doing this job. No employer health care for him. Just another form of ethnic cleansing, I guess.

Anyway, it looks like the law may have had its desired effect. An extra 500 million and 1200 more military personel are heading to the state so they can do the same job but within 100 miles of the border. Not enough according to McCain, but there's plenty more where that came from, right?


The "Gestapo" wasn't asking people for papers in THAT place, in THAT time, either. This is one of the things that makes me shake as I write, because of the sheer lack of understanding of how these things happen. There actually weren't enough "Gestapo" to be on the streets asking for papers. Ordinary (NOT EVIL) law-enforcement and military people whose brains were swimming with conflicting codes and laws and regulations and imperatives and personal morals/ethics were doing the "asking for papers." And ordinary (NOT EVIL) "legal" people acquiesced, and allowed themselves to be cowed.


I think it was mostly ordinary citizens who "denounced" people for being jewish or Polish or whatever that had the Gestapo running around like crazy. Really, papers weren't even necessary. Just an informant with a grudge against you. But it's the old movie cliche that keeps the evil Gestapo officer asking for zee papers that we have here.
 Rob Roy1
Joined: 10/3/2009
Msg: 286
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/26/2010 3:41:48 AM
Naaaaaa.....it was probably because they thought you were a Republican. (kidding)
 Rob Roy1
Joined: 10/3/2009
Msg: 287
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/26/2010 4:11:10 AM
Its a political ploy. They know it won't stand the Constitutionality test. Only the Fed can mandate a law such as this. It'll be knocked down by the Supreme Court.

The stupid thing about the whole issue is, its going to be at the expense of the tax payers. Already many companies and states are no longer doing business with Arizona. And the last time I checked, they're business climate isn't all that hot. So the money they pull in from collecting taxes and fees will suffer as well. They're shooting themselves in the foot.

Lets remember that last great Republican (I get so tired about hearing how great he was by Sean Hanitty) Ronald Reagan and what he did. Amnesty for all illegals. Hooray!! Funny how Republicans always seem to forget that little tidbit when discussing "conservative values". Lol!

The problem isn't an illegal alien issue (it is....sort of). Its mainly an illegal employer issue.

If the Feds were to make it a mandatory 30 years in prison and a $100,000.00 in fines for each illegal they employ, you'd see employers really thinking twice about hiring an illegal alien.

But part of the problem is the lobbyist groups in Washington DC. Who do you think picks the majority of crops in farms across the nation? Certainly not your typical white anglo saxon protestant. Farm groups would raise hell in D.C. if a real immigration bill that put that kind of pressure on employers.

Then you've got those that manage to get into the country LEGALLY that really shouldn't be allowed to come in here taking Americans jobs. The H1 Visa is the gift George W. Bush gave companies like Microsoft so that way they could employ degreed professionals from countries like China, India and Japan so they could pay them less than an American that could do the same work for more pay.

Then the last link in the chain. NAFTA, CAFTA and the World Trade Organization. NAFTA has destroyed us. In what was supposed to be a way for the USA to sell good we make here to other countries has turned into a mass exodus of companies leaving our shores to set up shop in places like China. Once in a country like China, they manufacture their goods using slave labor, then turn around...put their wares on a boat headed back to us. And then sell us those goods that could have been made here in America employing Americans. Why do these companies do this? Its all about greed. If they can make more money by leaving our shores and employing foreigners, then thats what they'll do. Just like Bear-Stearns screwed us in the pie hole with the financial bail out, our manufacturing base has been destroyed by our trade policies, lack of tarrifs, and tax loopholes for these multi-national corporations.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 288
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/26/2010 6:21:34 AM

Its a political ploy. They know it won't stand the Constitutionality test. Only the Fed can mandate a law such as this. It'll be knocked down by the Supreme Court.


Yet, no one has even attempted to answer why the federal law is not considered unconstitutional. Why is one constitutional, and the other unconstitutional?

A team of Justice Department attorneys reviewing the new immigration law in Arizona has recommended that the U.S. government challenge the state law in federal court. The draft complaint that challenges the Arizona law as unconstitutional, saying it is illegal because it impedes federal law... But in my opinion it only re-enforces the federal law.


Lets remember that last great Republican (I get so tired about hearing how great he was by Sean Hanitty) Ronald Reagan and what he did. Amnesty for all illegals. Hooray!! Funny how Republicans always seem to forget that little tidbit when discussing "conservative values". Lol!


And has the amnesty do anything to prevent or reduce illegal immigration?, not really. All it did was increase fraud and encourage illegal immigration. Look at Spain, they also did an amnesty for their illegal immigration. 700,000 with amnesty, just increased illegal immigration to 2.8 million after 5 years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/23/washington/23amnesty.html
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 289
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/26/2010 6:23:50 AM

Mexico has turned a blind eye to its drug problem far too long, payoffs to the police and government don't help either. Its now ingrained into its culture and its hard for its government to get rid of it now, as seen by all the violence steaming from the drug lords. While the drug problem is not likely go away, at least America has been fighting drugs for the last 40 years. Mexico is finally doing something about it NOW.


Mexico doesn't have an illegal drug problem, the USA has an illegal drug problem. The Mexican drug cartels are the current suppliers of the drugs that are consumed by the users in the USA. Inversely, Mexico has an illegal guns and automatic weapons problem. The Mexican drug cartels are the users of those illegal weapons. Guess who are their suppliers of those illegal weapons?

Funny to see you complain about the graft and bribes that it is "now ingrained into its culture and its hard for its government to get rid of it now" in Mexico. Have you ever contemplated the thought of complaining about the same problem within the US government with all the vote buying power that the lobbyists have? Yeah, and that would include the lobby for the weapons manufacturers!

Mexico is fighting a war against the violent cartels within its own territory, and they are willing to pay the price in order to regain control in the areas where the cartels are the dominant force. It won't be easy, but they will be successful in the end because they are doing the right thing, and they are fighting the war where it should be fought.

I wished that I could say the same about the USA chances for winning the War on Drugs. As you say, and pardon me if I can't contain the laughter, "at least America has been fighting drugs for the last 40 years," and it has been an utter failure because America has chosen to fight the war on drugs everywhere but in America, where the real problem resides. America has chosen to fight that war on drugs on the lands of South American and Central American countries, so those countries are the ones that contribute the dead bodies in a war being fought for the Americans who don't have the fortitude to fight the war where it should be fought, within its own territory. Perhaps one of these days the Americans will wise up to the reality of this joke that the War on Drugs really is.

In the meantime, the violence brought into the lands of South and Central America by the War on Drugs has the real effect of displacing thousands of people from their lands trying to escape the violence and destruction being rained on them. Soon after, those lands are scooped by the partners of American corporations at bottom prices and turned into field for the production of flowers and fruits for exporting to the USA. Think of it when you buy carnations and roses in the middle of the winter for your Valentine!
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 290
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/26/2010 6:55:16 AM

Mexico doesn't have an illegal drug problem, the USA has an illegal drug problem.


Then why is Mexico going after drug cartels?!? Is the drug trade legal in Mexico?


I wished that I could say the same about the USA chances for winning the War on Drugs. As you say, and pardon me if I can't contain the laughter, "at least America has been fighting drugs for the last 40 years," and it has been an utter failure because America has chosen to fight the war on drugs everywhere but in America, where the real problem resides. America has chosen to fight that war on drugs on the lands of South American and Central American countries, so those countries are the ones that contribute the dead bodies in a war being fought for the Americans who don't have the fortitude to fight the war where it should be fought, within its own territory. Perhaps one of these days the Americans will wise up to the reality of this joke that the War on Drugs really is.


Now I'm the one laughing. So what are all these local state police doing? They are fighting drug related crime in their own communities, not in other countries.


Mexico is fighting a war against the violent cartels within its own territory, and they are willing to pay the price in order to regain control in the areas where the cartels are the dominant force. It won't be easy, but they will be successful in the end because they are doing the right thing, and they are fighting the war where it should be fought.


It will never totally be eradicated, only kept under control.
 davidsauvignon
Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 291
view profile
History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/26/2010 8:01:49 AM
From: http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2010/05/jose_madrigal_accused_rapist_d.php

Jose Madrigal doesn't act like the kind of guy who wants to stay in America. And after the crime he supposedly committed last Sunday, it's likely local authorities will oblige him.

Police say Madrigal grabbed a 28-year-old outside of an Edmonds' grocery store, dragged her behind a dumpster and raped her. A local passerby called 911 after he heard the woman crying and saw Madrigal on top of her with his pants down.

It took cops a couple days to identify the Mexican immigrant because they had to sift through 30 aliases. When they finally ID'd him using his fingerprints, they realized why a guy like Madrigal might have something to hide.

His first appearance on a blotter came in 1989 for an armed stick-up. As King 5 reports, since then Madrigal has been arrested for a number of drug and sexual offense charges in Denver, San Diego and San Francisco, crimes which have led him to be deported nine times. A figure high enough to turn the bloodiest of bleeding hearts into a Pat Buchanan fan.

Madrigal is currently being held on rape charges. Immigration authorities aren't speaking about his case, but should he be convicted he's expected to face jail time and, more than likely, another one-way ticket back home.


This is but one recent example of the revolving door border problem I mentioned before. If this one career criminal can cross the border 10 times, how many al Qaeda, (et. al.) do ya think have managed to sneak across?

I wonder which of his 30 aliases Madrigal would have given during his "path to citizenship" background check?






~ds~
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 292
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/27/2010 5:31:21 AM

Now I'm the one laughing. So what are all these local state police doing? They are fighting drug related crime in their own communities, not in other countries.


By your own account, they have been fighting the War on Drugs for forty years, and it looks like they have been on the losing it for that long. And now you are laughging at them!

Some of those local state police may be laughing also as they collect their double duty pay for fighting the War on Drugs while at the same time collecting overtime pay for detail duty on highway construction sites.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 293
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/27/2010 6:10:51 AM

Some of those local state police may be laughing also as they collect their double duty pay for fighting the War on Drugs while at the same time collecting overtime pay for detail duty on highway construction sites.


Incorrect, thats not what I'm trying to say. What I find funny is your saying America has chosen to fight the war on drugs everywhere but in America. But thats not true, as shown by local law enforcement. Its only on the federal level, where its fought outside the U.S.



By your own account, they have been fighting the War on Drugs for forty years, and it looks like they have been on the losing it for that long.


Any type of crime never really goes away, and that includes the war on drugs.

On a more interesting note:
The Department of Homeland Security is alerting Texas authorities to be on the lookout for a suspected member of the Somalia-based Al Shabaab terrorist group who might be attempting to travel to the U.S. through Mexico.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 294
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/27/2010 6:18:05 AM

I read the wikipedia article you've quoted as well and fail to see anything even remotely similar to ethnic cleansing happening in Arizona. Ethnic cleansing implies "leave or die", not leave and then once you're able to legally return you're more than welcome.


Then, you must really have a reading comprehension problem because the text that I quoted clearly states that "the idea in ethnic cleansing is 'to get people to move, and the means used to this end range from the legal to the semi-legal'."

I am more tempted to believe that you don't have a reading comprehension problem, but you surely have a problem accepting the facts as they are presented to you. Therefore you find it necessary to argue a point when you really don't have anything important to say that is related to the topic in this discussion.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 295
view profile
History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/27/2010 7:01:12 AM
How about you expand your wikipedia horizons a bit , tranquilo. Look at a few different definitions of ethnic cleansing before you decide it's for sure legal.


the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship. The term ethnic cleansing, a literal translation of the Serbo-Croatian phrase etnicko ciscenje, was widely employed in the 1990s (though the term first appeared earlier) to describe the brutal treatment of various civilian groups in the conflicts that erupted upon the disintegration of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. These groups included Bosniacs (Bosnian Muslim



The U.S. State Department, concluded that ethnic cleansing "generally entails the systematic and forced removal of members of an ethnic group from their communities to change the ethnic composition of a region." The latter definition, while accurate, is seemingly too narrow to be a useful descriptor of a majority of situations which are encompassed in the broader definition. Ethnic cleansing, then, may involve death or displacement, or any combination thereof, where a population is identified for removal from an area.



Ethnic cleansing—the use of force or intimidation to remove people of
a certain ethnic or religious group from an area



The practice has a method: terror. It has a smell: the fetid misery of refugees. It has an appearance: the ruins of ravaged homes. Its purpose is to ensure—through killing, destruction, threat, and humiliation—that no return is possible.



Ethnic cleansing is a blanket term, and no specific crime goes by that name, but the practice covers a host of criminal offenses.



It [UN commiussion on ethnic cleansing] said ethnic cleansing was carried out in the former Yugoslavia by means of murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extrajudicial executions, rape and sexual assault, confinement of the civilian population, deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, and wanton destruction of property.


I'll stop there. It's silly beyond belief to compare the AZ immigration law to ethnic cleansing. Wikipedia suggesting ethnic cleansing is legal is absolutely wrong. I read and understood the article completely but skipped over all the nonsense because I know better. There's nothing legal about ethnic cleansing. Just as there's nothing even remotely close to ethnic cleansing happening in AZ. Think of it like this, genocide involves killing everybody. Ethnic cleansing involves killing enough people to ensure the rest of them never come back.....along with torture, destruction, terrorism and general mayhem. Although I'm sure many Kosovars would be happy to know that what happened to them was legal.


I am more tempted to believe that you don't have a reading comprehension problem, but you surely have a problem accepting the facts as they are presented to you.


Neither. I just have a problem when people "present" me with the wrong facts.

"ethnic cleansing" "indefinite detention" "papers" "sweeps" "aparthied" "drop offs in Nevada"

All very scary but NOT REAL.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 296
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/27/2010 8:36:57 AM
Oh, I'm sorry. I was talking about the subject of the thread, immigration laws. I agree totally that banning teachers with accents and ethnic studies is retarded and likely won't pass any of the constitutional challenges coming its way. I'd also be interested in knowing how legally qualified voters were disenfranchized (I really don't know). I also have to show a bunch of ID and proof of residency when I go to vote. I'm assuming these are also state qualifications? However, it's a monumental leap to go from enforcing existing immigration laws with alterations that actually, plainly, patently and obviously forbid the things that scare you most, to burning down churches, raping and murdering innocent people and general anarchy and mayhem. You'll note that police enforcement is not the last line of defense for innocent people in your country.


You probably can wait until the horror stories start to mount in numbers.


Ya, you've got me pegged all right.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 297
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/27/2010 8:59:00 PM

I have no papers at hand that "prove" I'm a Canadian citizen (the government has them, obviously, in the form of my birth record, but until I renew my expired passport, I do not)


Really? You don't have a driver's license? No social insurance number? No government issued ID card of any kind? You'd better hurry to renew your passport then because after its been expired for a year you have to go through the whole process again.


I'll repeat something I said earlier in this thread about an article I read that said a majority of Americans have never even had a passport


But the vast vast vast majority of citizens do have some form of acceptable id. It would be really hard to exist without it. Not having it has been upheld in court as a valid reason to pursue further investigations. You should really look into getting some id.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 298
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/27/2010 9:02:12 PM
It really all comes down to the comfy, majority, in control for now unable to understand or comprehend another side afraid of their future, vs. the minority, flashed the warning signs, living in fear, living under a different set of standards, while "equal" under the Law in theory...but....never equal as long as the tyranny of the majority feels so smug in giving away the rights of others.

Of course this is all sentimental musings, having just watched "Invictus". Carry on.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 299
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/28/2010 5:35:47 AM
Acceptable ID? What's that, in the "proof of citizenship" realm? My driver's licence? Nope, not proof of citizenship. Non citizens can have DLs.


Guess you missed that day. The immigration law in Arizona considers a driver's license to be proof of citizenship because in 47 states, and soon to be all states, getting a DL requires proof of citizenship. Actually where you live in Nova Soctia, you were also required to prove your citizenship to get a DL. Here are the requirements for first timers...


•Birth Certificate (government issued only);
•Passport;
•Canadian Citizenship Card;
•Permanent Resident Card or Immigration Papers - Record of Landing;
•Certificate of Indian Status Card, or
•Nova Scotia Identification Card.
and two additional pieces of identification with the applicant's name and signature, such as (but not limited to):
•Foreign Driver's Licence;
•Credit Card;
•Bank Card;
•Vehicle Registration; and
•Health Card.


There is a different class of DL of non-residents, students, pesky foreigners staying for longer than 90 days.

The Arizona law also considers ANY government issued ID that requires proof of citizenship to be valid proof of citizenship. This may include non operating driver'slicenses, state ID cards, and I'm sure a few others I'm not aware of. You can also show your native card or military id.

As you can see, "papers" doesn't mean quite what you thought. But you should be happy to know that you're a bona fide Canuck now even without your "papers". Stephan Harper isn't going to let you get away that easily.

The other consideration is that if you have been stopped by a cop in AZ and have answered all the questions logically and your story makes sense, that may be enough to satisfy reasonable suspicion even without id because, as we've been through in lengths, reasonable suspicion is a lesser standard than probable cause. I would not want to be the cop arresting a guy in a swim suite jay walking back to his house from the neighbor's pool for example.

In Canada we've recently required visa's for all travelers from Mexico. Calderon's miffed but I think he likes us better than Americans...


"My country recognizes the generous Canadian tradition of providing a refuge to those escaping persecution, discrimination or widespread violence," Calderon said. "However, I also know that there have been some who, abusing the generosity of the Canadian people, have perverted the noble aims of the asylum system to their own ends, which led the Canadian government to require visas for those travelling between our countries.

"We thoroughly respect Canada's right to make decisions regarding its immigration system,"
Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Bogus+Mexican+refugees+carries+price+Harper/3077811/story.html#ixzz0pEAvt3HB

 davidsauvignon
Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 300
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/28/2010 6:26:30 AM
From: http://www.gouverneurtimes.com/atx-front-page-news/15923-somali-terror-member-may-be-heading-to-texas-.html



HOUSTON (AP) — U.S. Homeland Security officials have asked Houston authorities to watch for a member of a Somalia-based terror group who may be coming to Texas through Mexico.
The federal department issued an alert last week for a suspected member of the al-Shabaab group, which has declared allegiance to al-Qaida.
Harris County Sheriff's spokeswoman Christina Garza said Wednesday she could not share details. U.S. Customs and Border Protection spokesman Lloyd Easterling says he "cannot discuss specific intelligence regarding individual groups."

The alert was issued after federal prosecutors in San Antonio added new charges earlier this month against a 24-year-old Somali man, Ahmed Muhammed Dhakane, who had been picked up in Brownsville in 2008. He pleaded not guilty May 14 in federal court in San Antonio to three counts of immigration fraud.

Garza confirmed a connection Wednesday between Dhakane's case and the Homeland Security alert but would not elaborate. Dhakane is accused of making false statements under oath in support of his application for asylum. According to the indictment, Dhakane failed to disclose that he was a member or associate of the al-Barakat financial transfer network and Al-Ittihad al-Islami, or the Islamic Union, which wants to impose Islamic law in Somalia. Both are on the Treasury Department's list of global terrorist groups with links to al-Qaida, according to the indictment.

The indictment also alleges that Dhakane lied about his movements before entering the United States in March 2008, that he "participated in and later ran a large-scale smuggling enterprise out of Brazil" that smuggled hundreds of people, mostly East Africans, into the United States. Among those smuggled, according to the indictment, were several Somalis affiliated with Al-Ittihad al-Islami.

The indictment also alleges he lied when he told officials that a young girl was his wife, when she actually "was a smuggling client" of his whom he had never married and had "repeatedly raped and impregnated prior to coming to the United States." He threatened to have the girl murdered if U.S. officials learned of the rapes or that he was not her husband, according to the indictment.

A message was left late Wednesday with the federal public defender's office in San Antonio, which is representing Dhakane.


I sure hope none of those "hundreds of people" smuggled here AT THE MEXICAN BORDER were friends/relatives of the Somali pirates that the Navy Seals whacked a few months ago.






~ds~
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