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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?      Home login  
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 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 26
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?Page 2 of 23    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23)
^^ Why? It was never "part of" the US, like Puerto Rico ended up becoming. PR's are always legal when they come to the states, yes; they're (technically) as American as anyone born in any state, but I think that's the only place in the Caribbean or south America where such an arrangement is the way it works.
 southernlass
Joined: 5/2/2006
Msg: 27
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 1:03:32 AM

While I say the above in jest, I believe it was the direct fault of the Federal Government for this legislation being enacted. I believe if you are illegally here, you need to pay a fine and get hauled back to your country of citizenship. There is a process for a reason. And the politicians really need to develop a policy to keep the illegals out. But that would require backbone.


This was well said and I agree with it. While I feel for all of those who want to be in this country, getting into it illegally is unacceptable. We need to do something about the immigration problem so I'm glad that one state has taken the initiative to handle the problem. If this works well, perhaps they'll implement something similar in Texas. You wouldn't believe the problem here in my city.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 28
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 1:37:47 AM
"But I guess it's ok to only expect "illegal-looking" people in AZ to have to carry their "papers" on them; where's the concern by the tea party-types about intrusive overreaching gov't's ??"
Good question Dino..
The cafeteria constitutionalists weren't anywhere to be seen during the Bush era when privacy rights were tossed out the door. The 2nd seems to be the only one that the racists care about. It does not matter if your family was here long before the region was ceded by Mexico to the US, if you are brownish now or have an accent, you must have papers on you at all times or face indefinate detention, hard labor at a for profit concentration camp, or extensive legal fees to prove you are a citizen. There is now a presumption of guilt for anyone of latino/indio/hispanic descent. There is no such presumption of guilt for white people in the same state.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." 4th ammendment..
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 29
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 3:52:06 AM
you know..... the eu, has passed the schechen (sp, ?)laws to protect the european union
quebec, has very strong language laws
the rest of canada also has them
only the USA , is not even applying the laws they already has
it has NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE! only common sense, the USA can not keep there borders wide open, for many more millions of latin americans to stroll over at will
are these people interested in following the laws of the usa, not at all, they are breaking the laws, and a lot of them, by simply being illegal aliens , and if respect for the law is not there, when they become residents, who really thinks they will stop being criminal, on there own
there are millions, of would be immigrants that follow the laws of the land, and everything is great!
but these criminals, just exploit the average citizen of the USA, have less than nothing in the way of respecting there new country's laws,, once again it is not racist to get rid of these parasites, there are 10's of millions of legal immigrants from every race on earth that are doing just fine
as far as giving the police your ID, that has always been the law in canada, as it is in most developed countries
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 30
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 5:15:04 AM

as far as giving the police your ID, that has always been the law in canada

No, it isn't... Police in Canada have NO legal right to demand you provide ID without arresting you... If an officer stops you and asks for ID, you are completely within your rights to refuse and there is no criminal offense of "refusing to provide ID"... And even if arrested, it is not an offence to refuse to provide ID (but you won't get bail for the charge you were arrested for if you do refuse)...
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 31
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 6:55:26 AM
if you do not give them your ID, they will arrest you on the spot
i know this first hand, i was an activist, and went through a time in my life when i did not want to give my ID
it is obvious that you are way out of touch with reality, the reality in canada, is if a police officer asks to see your ID, you either give it to him/her, or you are going to be arrested, and later force by the judge if you still refuse, you do have the right to say no, but then you will be in jail, on contempt charges, until you agree and co operate
this even applies to kids in high school!
 davidsauvignon
Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 32
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 7:46:05 AM


I maybe wrong but I don't think a Driver's licence is what they are asking. They are asking for you to carry your passport wherever you go, which lists your residency status if you are a non-American.

Who carries their passports wherever they go?

^^ That's right. They're not asking for drivers' licenses (those are something which all drivers have to show, obviously). They are asking for "papers", as in proof of US citizenship; who carries that with them in this country (except AZ now, apparently....) ?? Right-wingers , Right libertarians, whatever, go batsh!t when any mention is made of a national ID card for all citizens. But I guess it's ok to only expect "illegal-looking" people in AZ to have to carry their "papers" on them; where's the concern by the tea party-types about intrusive overreaching gov't's ??


It would probably behoove y’all to brush up a little bit on current immigration law. That way, you won’t appear to be spreading fear mongering or playing unsubstantiated race cards.

From the U.S. Immigration Services website:

"The Permanent Resident Card, Form I-551, is issued to all Permanent Residents as evidence of alien registration and their Permanent status in the US. The card must be in your possession at all times."



Note that the above requirement is already a Federal law…not one initiated by the State of Arizona.






~ds~
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 33
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 8:37:59 AM

It would probably behoove y’all to brush up a little bit on current immigration law. That way, you won’t appear to be spreading fear mongering or playing unsubstantiated race cards.

From the U.S. Immigration Services website:


"The Permanent Resident Card, Form I-551, is issued to all Permanent Residents as evidence of alien registration and their Permanent status in the US. The card must be in your possession at all times."


Note that the above requirement is already a Federal law…not one initiated by the State of Arizona.


And nobody is arguing that legal residents should comply with the law that requires them to carry with them the document that shows that they are permanent residents.

What you dont seem to want to understand is that the new law in Arizona will give the cops the right to treat these lawful residents as criminal suspects only because the color of their skin and the sound of their voices. Other lawful resident aliens whose skin is not brown and don't speak with an Spanish accent, and even the "illegal aliens" who look like the white Americans, will not be subjected to being stopped and asked for their papers. That is one big part of the problem. Is is blatant racial profiling.

And even worse, this new law will be used to harass the American citizens whose skin color is brown, and their voices reveal the sound of their ethnic heritage. Americans of Hispanic descent will also be stopped and harassed by the cops, who most likely will be instructed not to believe anyone who looks like an 'illegal alien" saying that he/she is a citizen, unless they carry absolute proof that they are legal citizens. No other American citizens will be required to carry any papers proving that they citizens. Only the ones suspected of being "illegal aliens" will have to do so to avoid the headaches and the harassment. That is blatant racial profiling and a violation of the rights of a citizen in the USA. It is discriminatory to treat a group of citizens in a manner that other groups will be exempted because of their racial background.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 34
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 9:11:19 AM

it has NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE! only common sense...

So it is common sense racism, then. I'm surprised you can say this with a straight face; it has everything to do with race (more accurately, ethnicity). As Tranq is trying very hard to point out, legal residents and citizens may now be harrassed based upon their appearance. I don't know how much simpler to make it. If you don't have a problem with that policy, I don't need to see your avatar to know that you do not look like a native Mexican.

my sister is a white female and attractive.

Good for her.

every foreign country she travels in requires her to carry a passport. every other country requires passports but only here is it racist.

Every country, even the US, requires a passport to enter it. I think you are confusing what it takes to enter a country with dwelling in a country.

of course its profiling,looking for illegal latinos, check the latinos!funny how i can be pulled over several times for being white in the wrong part of town and that's no problem, but latinos being checked for legal status is racist.

You admit that it's profiling, but you don't admit that it's racist? I think the meaning of one or both of those words eludes you. And by the way, it is a problem to be pulled over solely for being white. If it happened as you say it does, it would be quickly addressed and eliminated (yes, I'm calling BS on it happening to you as you say it does).
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 35
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 9:13:28 AM
P.S. This whole discussion is almost moot. This law will almost certainly be repealed. It is not a good law.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 36
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 9:53:29 AM
regarding passports.my sister is a white female and attractive. she travels regularly around the world. every foreign country she travels in requires her to carry a passport. every other country requires passports but only here is it racist.


It would be much easier if we would not mix different situations in the discussion.

A foreign traveler needs to have a passport to get into another country. That doesn't mean that every cop in that country is going to stop a foreign traveler and ask him/her for the passport. It would not be very good policy because it would have an effect in tourism and business travel. Now, your sister being so attractive might get stopped and ask for her papers a lot, but I think that would be another issue!


The problem here would be that we aren't talking about foreign travelers being asked to carry papers. We are talking about legal residents being suspected of being illegal aliens just because of their ethnic background. Since the law requires that a resident alien carry the document proving that he/she is a legal resident, the problem is that, given the issue that has brought this law into existence in Arizona, only the people looking Hispanic will be stopped and asked for papers. Other resident aliens who look white most likely will not be subjected to this treatment. And more so, most likely the "illegal aliens" that look white will be getting a pass from the requirements of this new law.

The worse part of this situation will be that the American citizens of Hispanic descent will be harassed by the cops for not having the documents to prove that they are here legally. They will be stopped and questioned just because of the color of their skin and for sounding like an "illegal alien." No other citizens will be stopped because of this law. American citizens are not obligated to carry papers proving that they are in this country legally.

Does all of this sound like discrimination and racial profiling to you? It sure does to me!
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 37
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 10:34:44 AM
^^^ Some regular American citizens probably will be, yes, and that sounds like racial or ethnic profiling to me as well. Also, other people of certain other ethnicities (Italian, Greek, Spanish -- from Europe) , could possibly be "mistaken" at times for being members of the "suspect" community, and then required to show their "papers". For instance my own father, foreign-born (naturalized after 18), could possibly be mistaken as such IMO. He does not carry his proof of citizenship around with him. Now we live in Chicago granted, so it doesn't matter. But if we were in AZ, would people like him, foreign-born but naturalized citizens who could "pass for" Hispanic , have to carry their proof of citizenship around with them all the time?? To me this seems ridiculous, excessive, reminiscent of a police state of some sort. I can't get behind activity like this. Join the Facebook group "Boycott Arizona" , IMO. You'll see there's already 15,000 members..
 davidsauvignon
Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 38
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 10:46:34 AM

would people like him, foreign-born but naturalized citizens who could "pass for" Hispanic , have to carry their proof of citizenship around with them all the time??

Nope...it doesn't affect citizens, natural born or naturalized. Only those who are not citizens and are here either temporarily or permanently. As they aren't citizens, they are required to carry their PRC...just as it's been for years and years. Did it feel like a police state last month or last year? When legal immigrants were required to carry their documentation at all times?





~ds~
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 39
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 10:49:19 AM
^^ Ok. But if a cop pulls someone over specifically because he "looks Mexican", let's say, how can that not be a racial/ethnic profile type of stop? Anywhere else , if that were admitted openly, it would be. Now, I'm not sure if the cops have to have pulled them over already for something else , or not. But still, we all know this is liable to be abused by cops with personal opinions and agendas (something which is unavoidable since they are human just like the rest of us).
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 40
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 11:01:45 AM

Now, I'm not sure if the cops have to have pulled them over already for something else , or not. But still, we all know this is liable to be abused by cops with personal opinions and agendas (something which is unavoidable since they are human just like the rest of us).


I was stopped once and I was asked for my documents. I asked the cop: why was I stopped? His answer was that the license plate light in my car wasn't working.

I came out of the car and went to check the light. Guess what? The light was working properly. I looked at the cop and pointed to the light. He said: It wasn't working a couple of minutes ago.
 sammylg
Joined: 12/20/2006
Msg: 41
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 11:10:07 AM
It would probably behoove y’all to brush up a little bit on current immigration law. That way, you won’t appear to be spreading fear mongering or playing unsubstantiated race cards.

From the U.S. Immigration Services website:
"The Permanent Resident Card, Form I-551, is issued to all Permanent Residents as evidence of alien registration and their Permanent status in the US. The card must be in your possession at all times."

Note that the above requirement is already a Federal law…not one initiated by the State of Arizona.



Here is a question. How would they know if you were a Permanent Greencard holder? There isn't anything that differentiates GreenCard holders from an American citizen. Does that mean, if they now ask for your papers, Americans have to prove citizenship as well?

Your answer is well and fine for those who are I551 residents. But for the rest of the folks, that answer makes no sense.
 davidsauvignon
Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 42
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 11:11:56 AM

But if a cop pulls someone over specifically because he "looks Mexican", let's say, how can that not be a racial/ethnic profile type of stop?

They can't. This law specifically prohibits it. See below.


ENFORCEMENT
1. Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.



I'm not sure if the cops have to have pulled them over already for something else , or not.

They do…see above.


But still, we all know this is liable to be abused by cops with personal opinions and agendas (something which is unavoidable since they are human just like the rest of us).

If they abuse it, it is at their own peril. See below.


ENFORCEMENT
10. Specifies that law enforcement officers are indemnified by their agencies against reasonable costs and expenses, including attorney fees, incurred by the officer in connection with any action, suit or proceeding brought pursuant to this statute to which the officer may be a party by reason of the officer being or having been a member of the law enforcement agency, except in relation to matters in which the officer is adjudged to have acted in bad faith.

I assume, pulling someone over for “riding brown” as it’s been described previously, will be judged to have acted in “bad faith”. Obviously, that would be up to the judge to determine whether the contact was deemed “legitimate”.





~ds~
 sammylg
Joined: 12/20/2006
Msg: 43
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 11:12:49 AM
"Nope...it doesn't affect citizens, natural born or naturalized. Only those who are not citizens and are here either temporarily or permanently. As they aren't citizens, they are required to carry their PRC...just as it's been for years and years. Did it feel like a police state last month or last year? When legal immigrants were required to carry their documentation at all times? "

Actually, if you have to prove citizenship or legit reason to be in the States, wouldn't all Arizona folks be required to carry citizenship to prove you weren't here temporarily, permanently or illegally? Cops can't tell if you're a citizen or not on the spot. If they could, say on their computers, then why would they require you to carry documentation because the information would be on hand?
 davidsauvignon
Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 44
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 12:26:22 PM

Actually, if you have to prove citizenship or legit reason to be in the States, wouldn't all Arizona folks be required to carry citizenship to prove you weren't here temporarily, permanently or illegally? Cops can't tell if you're a citizen or not on the spot. If they could, say on their computers, then why would they require you to carry documentation because the information would be on hand?

I noticed a post you made on another thread stating that folks are paranoid in red states for fearing government intrusion in their lives and you described that fear as “unhealthy and unproductive”. I kind of think the same way here. Your fearing the government rounding up all citizens and demanding proof of citizenship is, a) baseless, b) paranoid, c) divisive, and d) unproductive.

Just give the authorities in Arizona the opportunity to enact and uphold this law which it has deemed necessary in order for them to protect their citizens. If it is ineffective, it will be repealed or ammended. If is unconstitutional, it will be struck down. Don’t go running around like Chicken Little spreading fear-based assumptions and rumors.





~ds~
 justwant2no
Joined: 11/14/2007
Msg: 45
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 12:59:22 PM
Sammy brings up a good point -
Does that mean, if they now ask for your papers, Americans have to prove citizenship as well?

I am a US citizen, born and bred. If I were pulled over today and asked to prove my citizenship, I couldn't do it! So what would happen? Could I be detained? Thrown in jail?
I think there is a common misconception that anyone who wants to become a legal citizen, can. I was shocked to find how hard it is. A friend of a friend is an Australian citizen, who has been in this country for 15 + years on a work visa. Every year, she has to fly back to Australia and go through a process to renew her visa. And even though she has lived here for over a decade, built a life - even married a US citizen (they are a Californian lesbian couple, so when the law was repealed, so was her citizenship), is a highly educated professional, she has been unable to become a US citizen. What hope is there for poor immigrants seeking a better life?
 davidsauvignon
Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 46
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 1:50:19 PM

If I were pulled over today and asked to prove my citizenship, I couldn't do it!

You're saying you don't have an SSN? How have you managed to live here for 48 years without an SSN? And all of your employers have always hired you without an SSN? And every tax return you've ever filed without an SSN went undetected by the IRS? Hmmm, smells "fishy".





~ds~
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 47
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 3:12:19 PM

You're saying you don't have an SSN? How have you managed to live here for 48 years without an SSN? And all of your employers have always hired you without an SSN? And every tax return you've ever filed without an SSN went undetected by the IRS? Hmmm, smells "fishy".


So, according to you, all a person needs to prove citizenship is a SSN?

And you are trying to pass yourself for a well informed guy about immigration!

If all a person needs is a SSN, then the criminals among the undocumented immigrants should have no problem because they have those numbers, and they have even assumed the identity of the person whose SSN they are using. And for your info, a lot of the "illegal aliens" also have SSN's. Yes, they are fake, but some of them look very much like the real item. For a long time employers relied on those SSNs to cover their butts for employing illegal aliens in case their company was raided by Immigration officers. Their excuse was they they weren't trained to spot the fake SSNs.

You need to brush up on the practical aspects of enforcing this law!
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 48
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 4:45:14 PM
if you do not give them your ID, they will arrest you on the spot
i know this first hand, i was an activist, and went through a time in my life when i did not want to give my ID
it is obvious that you are way out of touch with reality, the reality in canada, is if a police officer asks to see your ID, you either give it to him/her, or you are going to be arrested, and later force by the judge if you still refuse, you do have the right to say no, but then you will be in jail, on contempt charges, until you agree and co operate


That is utter bullsh*t... If you disagree then I challenge, even DEFY, you to quote the section of the Criminal Code that grants them this power (hint: you have to be arrested BEFORE they can demand ID and you CANNOT be arrested simply for refusing to provide ID in the absence of a chargeable offense)...

I GUARANTEE that you can't do it... Absolutely GUARANTEE it... I'll take your failure to do so as an admission that you are wrong on this...

This is no different than claiming you can be arrested for wearing a balaclava in public in the absence of a chargeable offense...

I am required to have a passport which they check at the border or anywhere else they choose. Heck maybe they are profiling me, boo hoo.

It's the way of world, they did the same thing to me in Europe too. The nerve of those people! When I went on business to India I needed a passport, a visa and a sponsor.

You do understand the difference between a "border crossing" and a "city street in Phoenix", right...? The comparison is ludicrous...

When I travel to Mexico

First, Arizona (or the US) isn't Mexico... In Mexico you generally have to pay bribes for simple police services, like investigating being mugged... Would you advocate such a practice in Arizona...?
 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 49
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 4:51:03 PM

It's the way of world, they did the same thing to me in Europe too. The nerve of those people! When I went on business to India I needed a passport, a visa and a sponsor. I guess they are racist too!!!!!!!

So while you where on your trip how many times where you stopped by local officials asking for your papers because your skin color?

If the answer was zero then no they are not racist.
 HeyJenny
Joined: 11/13/2008
Msg: 50
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 5:39:40 PM
Other than my concern for eventually making us all have to have a biometric ID or microchip because of this I fully support The new Arizona law and hope other states (especially California where I live) start doing it too.

I hate hearing the LA mayor tell people to boycott Arizona, how would he feel if another mayor said to boycott LA. Illegals and immigrants have way too much influence on our politicians and I don't like it.
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