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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?      Home login  
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 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 51
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?Page 3 of 23    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23)
When I first posted this, I had real, and high dreams that this was our Niemoller moment in the republic, where we had hit the wall of fascism, had a reality check and could decide we would never go there. Thus the request for opinions.

It is apparent that the white majority is comfortable with profiling as long as the whites are currently still in control. The slippery slope of fascism eventually can encompass anyone. In the last administration, peace protesters, animal rights people, and environmentalists were lumped into the same "terrorist" category as people with bombs from foreign nations. In the new admin, the far Right Christian extremists are now on par with Osama bin Laden. The winds shift. The Constitution was designed originally to deal effectively with these shifts of Twits in charge. These basic rights should be able to overcome our darkest fears and moments. It is a new era in our short, but fairly successful experiment in democracy, that we so willingly throw away thousands of years of evolution in freedom, to placate our fears of brown people becoming the majority again on this continent. Karma is a **** oft times, but does not need to be. The dances of denial are fun but not based in the reality of the world that will be in our lives.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.
 Hiiwayman
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 52
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 8:10:17 PM
Bugsbro we have here folks that feel they are victoms and not enough folks that try to support the solution. And none that suggest one.
 HeyJenny
Joined: 11/13/2008
Msg: 53
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/29/2010 9:10:23 PM
One good reason to enforcing the law :Aztlan

Here are two videos regarding Aztlan;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkAP_M4ZAM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTwO457C8bQ
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 54
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/30/2010 6:34:57 AM

The progressive view on illegal immigration is to simply give them all amnesty. They have NO ideas to prevent the problem from recurring over and over.

Apparently cutting off benefits for illegal aliens does not suit them
Building a border fence does not suit them
Cracking down on employers does not suit them
Increasing the border patrol does not suit them
Deportation does not suit them
Jailing them does not suit them


This post is very disingenuous. To state that we have NO ideas to prevent illegal immigration is an asinine comment. Whenever there has been a discussion about this issue before, we have stressed clearly that we need to address the causes of this problem, which is the increasing economic disparity between the USA and Mexico. Since the beginning of NAFTA the number of people displaced from their ancestral lands has caused a large percentage of the Mexican peasants to migrate seaching for a place to work in order to help their families. Some of those people end up entering the USA illegally because they heard that in the USA there are plenty of jobs for hard working people.

Unless we promote trade with other countries, like Mexico, that isn't driven to reward the upper classes as they accelerate the despoiling of the people of indian ancestry and the poor peasants, evicting from their lands, and unless we stop spreading the news in those countries that we need hard-working people here, just so the employers here will have a surplus of labor to keep wages low, we will continue to experience this type of problem, no matter how high we build a fence around the country, no matter how many people we deport or put in jail, no matter how many border patrols you sent out every day and night.

How many times do we have to post that we are absolutely in favor of cracking down on the employers of "illegal aliens"? The reason for that is that we believe that by taking the profit motive out of the enterprise of hiring "illegal aliens," the undocumented workers will get the message that there are no jobs for them in the USA. Most likely they will stop coming because there will be no logical reason for them to take a big financial risk to cross into the USA illegally. Why would they risk their lives for nothing?
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 55
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/30/2010 7:08:28 AM
^^^^ I recommend that you start reading the newspapers and/or watch the news, other than Faux News to get an idea as to what is happening.

In the meantime, you can wait until the DoJ publishes the annual statistics for 2009.
It may take a while, though!
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 56
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History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/30/2010 7:28:47 AM

If this is the case, with a Democratic ruled senate, house and presidency, why isn't it happening?


Because they don't want it to. Strange thing is, neither do the repubs. The dems want the votes, the repubs want the cheap labor. The middle class once again takes it on the chin from both sides.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 57
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/30/2010 7:34:50 AM
Tranq.."How many times do we have to post that we are absolutely in favor of cracking down on the employers of "illegal aliens"? "
pirateheaven.."If this is the case, with a Democratic ruled senate, house and presidency, why isn't it happening? Crickets ..............."

I agree with tranquilo, that if you have not noticed the Dems and Obama trying to do something about the immigration issue, that you are probably just a Faux News addict.

Obama has kept his campaign pledge to crack down on the demand for illegal immigrant labor, the employers of illegals. The one thing he is doing differently, and more effectively is keeping the illegals in the US to testify against the employers. The previous admin just deported the potential witnesses and kept the cycle working. The new policy is so effective it has the Napa Growers knickers in a knot. Conservative business people benefited from the blame the immigrants, not the employers tactic.

http://www.napagrowers.org/PDF/immigrationlawreform.pdf
snip..
In the new guidelines just announced, the Department calls for more severe fines and criminal
prosecution against employers found to violate these laws. The directives instruct ICE field
offices and agents to focus on employers and supervisors. Moreover, they suggest the approach
used in Washington may be employed more often: use the workers themselves to help prosecute
their bosses.
“Enforcement efforts focused on employers better target the root causes of illegal immigration”
according to the new guidelines. “ICE must prioritize the criminal prosecution of actual
employers who knowingly hire illegal workers because such employers are not sufficiently
punished or deterred by the arrest of their illegal work force.”
end snip..

Republicans are dead set against futher immigration reform laws right now since it's "an election year". The party of NO does not want the issue resolved.
"I just don't think this is the right time to take up this issue, with the border security problems, the drug wars going on across the border, 10 percent unemployment," Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., said on "Fox News Sunday."

Until the Republicans are willing to be part of the solution, perhaps we need to build a wall around Idaho and allow all the scared WASPs to hold up there instead of driving the rest of the US into fascism.
 justwant2no
Joined: 11/14/2007
Msg: 58
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/30/2010 7:39:38 AM
I'm late, I know, but in response to
You're saying you don't have an SSN?

Yes, I have a SSN, I just don't carry my SS card around on my person, and neither should you - and frankly, the SS card, in my opinion, is worthless as proof of citizenship - it doesn't have a photo - so you need a photo id to confirm, like anybody can't get a fake ID.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 59
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/30/2010 1:35:03 PM

I am still waiting for the Democrat solution to stop illegal entry into the U.S.

Only a handful of nations have EVER been able to put a stop (more or less) to illegal immigration... Two of them are: the old USSR and present-day Somalia... Which solution would you prefer...?
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 60
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 4/30/2010 7:31:00 PM

Likewise, when I was living in Canada, if it was required that I present my birth certificate in order to prove I was a citizen to be able to vote? I have no problem with that either. JMO.

These aren't the same issues at all... first, you are the one going to the polling station to vote and the requirement only applies when you actually vote... The polling station does not come to you demanding ID and if you choose not to vote you will not be required to prove who you are... This law does not apply to a single situation, in a single place which you may choose to attend or not attend and thereby choose to provide ID... If this law created permanent, fixed checkpoints like the Border Patrol uses then they might be equivalent...

On the flip side...as a LEGAL immigrant to the US, who pays my taxes and jumped through all the hoops to attain my status...I'm not allowed to take advantage of any social security programmes, unemployment, things like that for a minimum of 10 years. No free medical, no free rides.

Illegal immigrants are not legally eligible for the benefits you mentioned either... And you are still entitled to the same level of emergency, life-saving care that ANY person, legal or not, is entitled to in the US...
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 61
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/1/2010 6:05:55 AM
Today I am convinced that it is all a campaign of ethnic cleasing against Mexicans, Hispanic and Latinos going on in Arizona.

First the law that legalized racial profiling against those looking like "illegal aliens," now we have the news that the Republicans in the Arizona legislature have passed a bill banning ethnic studies in the schools, and a campaign to get rid of teachers who have an accent when they speak English.

I am not throwing race cards around here people, and I am not paranoid. I just read the news and reflect on what is happening in this country of ours.


Arizona legislature bans ethnic-studies programs
Fri Apr 30, 12:45 pm ET
Just a week after signing the country's toughest immigration bill into law, Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer now must decide whether to endorse another bill passed by her state legislature — one that outlaws ethnic-studies programs in public schools.

The bill forbids Arizona schools from using any curriculum that promotes "the overthrow of the United States government" or "resentment toward a race or class of people." It also disallows any curriculum that's "designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group" or that seeks to "advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals."

Arizona's superintendent for public instruction, Tom Horne, has said he's backing the measure because ethnic-studies programs encourage "ethnic chauvinism"; he's also suggested that such programs could breed secessionist sentiment among Hispanic students.

Republican state Sen. Jack Harper also voted for the bill, saying that certain Hispanic-themed ethnic-studies programs are "trying to say that somebody who came to this country illegally is somehow oppressed. That's crazy stuff."

But the legislation's opponents say that, if the bill is signed into law, the state, not the targeted programs, would be promoting a politicized curriculum. Democratic state Sen. Linda Lopez says the bill would target a Mexican-American studies program used in her home district of Tucson. She offered an amendment — which the legislature approved — mandating that Arizona schools adopt curricula that include discussions of incidents of genocide such as the Holocaust, so that such material would not be considered as promoting "ethnic resentment."

In another controversial shift in state education policy, the Wall Street Journal has reported that the Arizona Department of Education has begun telling principals to remove teachers who speak English with an accent from classes with students who are still learning English. Some school officials are complaining that the move will remove experienced teachers from classrooms that need them. Margaret Dugan, the state's deputy superintendent of schools, told the Journal the request is "politicizing the educational environment."

"Teachers should speak good grammar because kids pick up what they hear," Johanna Haver, an adviser to Arizona educators, told the Journal. "Where you draw the line is debatable."

The Education Department permits teachers who don't meet fluency standards to take classes to improve.

—Liz Goodwin is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100430/ts_ynews/ynews_ts1885

And there will be mounting pressure on Governor Jan Brewer to sign that bill since there is talk that Joe Arpaio, the rogue Maricopa county sherriff, may enter the race for governor in Arizona.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 62
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/1/2010 6:34:00 AM
Tranquilo..
I see a re-write of history Texas-style, coming into Arizona schools. There are some very subjective rules being written on what can be taught and what constitutes "ethnic chauvinism".

I also have a sneaking suspicion that targeting teachers with accents will invariably be only those with Spanish accents. I seriously doubt that teachers with Maine, Boston, Alabama, or Fargo accents will be relieved of duty, nor will teachers with Scottish, Welsh, Irish or British accents be targeted.

Arizona is just the tip of the iceberg of growing hysteria and paranoia by the declining white majority as the world around them becomes more multicultural. Tennessee just went through a round of "english only" legislation, that was met with much concern by European executives that recently invested billions of dollars in manufacturing facilities here. Very short-sighted reactionary nonsense coming out of many States' legislatures during the great white panic. It's an infectious communicable disease of the mind.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 63
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/1/2010 9:49:55 AM
You'd never know it to hear the wild accusations, but the Arizona statute goes further to protect individuals and restrict officers than the Constitution requires. If police are just asking questions of someone, not even the "reasonable suspicion" standard for temporary "stop and frisk" detentions applies.

In 1991, in Florida v. Bostick, the Court said that: “Even when officers have no basis for suspecting an individual, they may generally ask questions of that individual; ask to examine that individual's identification; and request consent to search his or her luggage.”

In Muehler v. Mena, a 2005 decision, the Court drew on these principles in holding that the Fourth Amendment's prohibition of "unreasonable" seizures doesn't apply to "mere police questioning," because this "does not constitute a seizure.” The Court said that “the officers did not need reasonable suspicion to ask Mena for her name, date and place of birth, or immigration status.”

So, Arizona officers wouldn't be violating the Constitution (or any federal law) by asking for evidence about someone's immigration status, *even if they didn't have any reasonable suspicion the person was an alien here unlawfully.* The statute also says that officers can't make a person's race, color, or nation origin their only reason to ask about that person's immigration status.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 64
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/1/2010 10:40:17 AM

perhaps we need to build a wall around Idaho and allow all the scared WASPs to hold up there instead of driving the rest of the US into fascism.


One of the reasons the people had their states each give up some powers to form the United States--if not the main reason--was "to provide for the common defence." They said so, in the Preamble to the Constitution. Yet you obviously don't want the U.S. to enforce its immigration laws. Why defend our national borders, then? Or why even have them?

The Mexicans and other aliens who invade the U.S. unlawfully are challenging the sovereignty of the U.S. over its territory. Anyone who's willing to let that challenge succeed is showing his contempt for the most basic purpose of our government--and for the Constitution which created it. And it doesn't hide that fact to portray yourself as a champion of the oppressed, or to slander people as bigots because they stand up for this country.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 65
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/1/2010 10:59:38 AM
In Muehler v. Mena, a 2005 decision, the Court drew on these principles in holding that the Fourth Amendment's prohibition of "unreasonable" seizures doesn't apply to "mere police questioning," because this "does not constitute a seizure.” The Court said that “the officers did not need reasonable suspicion to ask Mena for her name, date and place of birth, or immigration status.”

Irrelevant to support of the law... Completely and utterly irrelevant... The questioning occured in the context of a warrant to search a residence in which she was an occupant... And she was not (and could not have been) arrested for not providing proof of citizenship in that context...

2. The officers’ questioning of Mena about her immigration status during her detention did not violate her Fourth Amendment rights. The Ninth Circuit’s holding to the contrary appears premised on the assumption that the officers were required to have independent reasonable suspicion in order to so question Mena. However, this Court has “held repeatedly that mere police questioning does not constitute a seizure.” Florida v. Bostick, 501 U.S. 429, 434.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-1423.ZS.html

And...you will note that they cited Bostick as support... Where they specifically note that being able to refuse WITHOUT prejudice (as in "not... subject to arrest" for the refusal) is the determining factor...

In 1991, in Florida v. Bostick, the Court said that: “Even when officers have no basis for suspecting an individual, they may generally ask questions of that individual; ask to examine that individual's identification; and request consent to search his or her luggage.”

Also irrelevant to support of the law as the court determined that the individual in question was free to refuse without prejudice (as in, he could have refused, simply walked away and would not have been subject to arrest)...

Held:

1. The Florida Supreme Court erred in adopting a per se rule that every encounter on a bus is a seizure. The appropriate test is whether, taking into account all of the circumstances surrounding the encounter, a reasonable passenger would feel free to decline the officers' requests or otherwise terminate the encounter. Pp. 433-437.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=501&invol=429

Once again... The Arizona law does NOT meet that standard as the individual IS subject to prejudice (as in, can be arrested) for refusing to answer to the questioning... And that applies REGARDLESS of actual legal status... A legal resident who refuses to answer can be arrested the same as an illegal who refuses to answer...
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 66
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/1/2010 12:19:38 PM

Don't kid yourself. Even my immigration lawyer made a comment along the lines of "the quickest way to gain entry is to hop across the border, drop out a kid or two, and badda bing, badda boom"

Ah, but... It is NOT the illegal parent who is the eligible recipient of the benefits, it is the child, the natural born citizen, that is the eligible recipient...

The situation could easily be resolved by deporting the parent as an illegal immigrant and taking the child citizen into state care... Except... THIS is much, much more costly than leaving the illegal immigrant parent alone...

So, unless the 14th Amendment is rewritten or repealed...

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

And, given the reason the 14th was adopted, we have a pretty good idea where THAT would lead...
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 67
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/1/2010 1:08:12 PM

The questioning occured in the context of a warrant to search a residence in which she was an occupant... And she was not (and could not have been) arrested for not providing proof of citizenship in that context...


It's your comments about arrests ('seizures," to use the 4th Amendment's term) which aren't relevant. No one but you is talking about arresting anyone. You're trying to change the subject, but all you're doing is confirming what I said: "Mere police questioning does not constitute a seizure."

To repeat--the Arizona statute, by requiring officers to have reasonable suspicion a person is in the U.S. unlawfully to ask about it, goes beyond what the U.S. Constitution requires. The Supreme Court has said the Fourth Amendment doesn't require officers even to have a reasonable suspicion to question someone about the things I noted. One of those things is the person's immigration status.

You say Mena could not have been arrested for not providing proof of citizenship. (I assume what you mean by that is proof she was present in the U.S. legally--resident aliens and non-resident aliens who have entered the U.S. legally also have a legal right to be here.) Did the Court also say that, or is that just your assertion? Once police have legally entered someone's home, they can enforce the law against any crimes they observe there.

Since 1940, federal law has required the same thing the Arizona statute does:

(e) Personal possession of registration or receipt card; penalties

Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times
carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of
alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him
pursuant to subsection (d) of this section. Any alien who fails to
comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a
misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined not to
exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both.

U.S. Code Title 8, chapter 12, subchapter II, part VII, section 1304. (8 U.S.C. sec. 1304 (e))


Showing the officer a valid driver's license or non-driver's ID creates a legal presumption that you're not violating the Arizona statute. Somehow I doubt that most people think that having show a driver's license when we get stopped by the cops, or fly somewhere, or rent a car means we're living under Nazi rule.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 68
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/1/2010 1:08:18 PM

The governor of Arizona has amended the law to make it very clear that only if someone of any race is arrested for a crime can they be asked for proof of citizenship.

This is a total red herring on two counts... 1) The police have always had that authority and SCOTUS has confirmed that numerous times... 2) Actual arrest isn't necessary, under the amendments they can ask even if they are answering a municipal noise complaint...

The difference between that authority and this law is that they can't charge you for refusing to provide proof under the SCOTUS rulings... With this law they can arrest you, even if you are a natural born citizen, for refusing to "show your papers" even if the original contact (like a 'loud music' complaint) wouldn't have warranted arrest on its own in the first place...

I don't get the lack of common sense when it comes to leaving an American born baby of illegal parents behind.

And what about the "common sense" of the protected rights of natural born American citizens... Are we to now "award" rights based on parental-ethnic heritage...?

Or even easier still, by deporting the illegal parent BEFORE the child was born, no?

Or, would you prefer to make a mockery of the system your government has in place, for legal immigrants such as myself to follow, and allow others to bypass that system?

Except... Corporate America doesn't want that... Remember your post about the cost of food...? If you find it a mockery then THEY are the ones you need to be talking to...
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 69
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/1/2010 1:21:36 PM

So, unless the 14th Amendment is rewritten or repealed...


It's far from self-evident that the 14th Am. makes anchor babies U.S. citizens. Some have made the legal argument--which I'm not going to try to make here--that those children are not citizens because they're not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S., and that the Court therefore has misinterpreted the 14th Am.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 70
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/1/2010 1:29:02 PM
It's your comments about arrests ('seizures," to use the 4th Amendment's term) which aren't relevant. No one but you is talking about arresting anyone. You're trying to change the subject, but all you're doing is confirming what I said: "Mere police questioning does not constitute a seizure."

But it isn't "mere questioning" as the individual cannot refuse to answer WITHOUT prejudice under the Arizona law...

You say Mena could not have been arrested for not providing proof of citizenship. (I assume what you mean by that is proof she was present in the U.S. legally--resident aliens and non-resident aliens who have entered the U.S. legally also have a legal right to be here.) Did the Court also say that, or is that just your assertion?

Yes, the court DID say that... and I pointed out where they did... In their citation of Florida v Bostick which clearly states...

The appropriate test is whether, taking into account all of the circumstances surrounding the encounter, a reasonable passenger would feel free to decline the officers' requests or otherwise terminate the encounter

A citation you seem to deliberately ignore... But a principle which SCOTUS has upheld over and over... Questioning ceases to be innocent when the individual loses the ability to "feel free to decline the officers' requests or otherwise terminate the encounter" and this law removes that, even from natural born citizens...

Once police have legally entered someone's home, they can enforce the law against any crimes they observe there.

That applies to crimes which are observable in the officer's presence... How do the officers "observe" the person's illegal status in those circumstances...?

Since 1940, federal law has required the same thing the Arizona statute does:

Again, how does an officer "observe" that the person is an illegal alien, a resident alien or a natural born citizen without asking...? Where does this law allow police to arrest a natural born citizen for refusing to provide proof of being natural born...? The Arizona law does allow them to arrest a natural born citizen for refusing to prove natural born status...

Your assertions seem to assume that an officer will somehow be able to observe that the person is an illegal alien, a resident alien or a natural born citizen with sufficient clarity to know to ask one but not the other but you haven't explained how they may do that without violating the rights of the natural born citizen...

It's far from self-evident that the 14th Am. makes anchor babies U.S. citizens. Some have made the legal argument--which I'm not going to try to make here--that those children are not citizens because they're not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S., and that the Court therefore has misinterpreted the 14th Am.

What part of "born in the United States" is less than self-evident...? How does an individual, not under colour of diplomatic agreement, present in the US, not fall under US jurisdiction...? And, of course, if they aren't under US jurisdiction then they can't be arrested, charged or deported because the US doesn't have jurisdiction to do so...
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 71
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/1/2010 1:41:04 PM

The governor of Arizona has amended the law to make it very clear that only if someone of any race is arrested for a crime can they be asked for proof of citizenship.


Well, that is not what the change to the law says. Not "only if someone of any race is arrested for a crime can they be asked for proof of citizenship," but they can question and demand identification and proof of legal residence of anyone who "the police stop, detain or arrest."

That seems to be very different from what you are saying. The change of the law is intended to give cover to the police against the charge of racial profiling. So now the police will need to have a reason why they stopped someone, other than their physical appearance. It won't be very difficult for the police to come up with fake reasons to stop anyone who looks like the ones that they want to question and harass. God forbid you jaywalk or spit on the street in Arizona while looking Hispanic! You better have your papers in order and with you, otherwise you will end up in the slammer.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 72
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History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/1/2010 1:50:58 PM

With this law they can arrest you, even if you are a natural born citizen, for refusing to "show your papers" even if the original contact (like a 'loud music' complaint) wouldn't have warranted arrest on its own in the first place...


And what of it? Driving with a burned-out tail light wouldn't warrant my arrest on its own, either. But it would give an officer the reasonable suspicion he needed to stop me. And I wouldn't be under arrest while the officer was just questioning me. But while he was doing that, my demeanor, something about my driver's license or registration, or something he saw in my car could then give him the probable cause needed to arrest me.

I'm not sure what, specifically, you're claiming the Arizona statute does that violates the U.S. Constitution. Why don't you state, clearly and specifically, how you think it violates what specific constitutional guarantee, how it violates it, and cite the case law that supports your claim? I'm aware of how much the law professor who drafted the statute knows about the constitutional issues involved. If you think he got them wrong, prove it.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 73
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/1/2010 2:03:49 PM
I'm aware of how much the law professor who drafted the statute knows about the constitutional issues involved. If you think he got them wrong, prove it.


Yeah! He got it wrong, law professor or not! They already had to amend the new law that was legalizing racial profiling.

Now with the change, the cops would need to come up with clownish excuses to be covered for their illegal racial profiling activities. With that, the rogue, racist cops will be covered against the complaints of racial profiling.

 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 74
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History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/1/2010 3:07:06 PM

With that, the rogue, racist cops will be covered against the complaints of racial profiling.


Do tell. But your assertion that this statute "was legalizing racial profiling" doesn't address why you think it does that *now.* You seem to think that if you use enough heated language, and toss in some slurs against the cops, you've resolved everything.

"Racial profiling" is a nice slogan--probably fits well on a bumper sticker. Throwing slogans around is a convenient way to seem to be saying something when you're really not. It saves the trouble of doing all that difficult research and thinking. What, specifically, are you claiming this statute does, as to race, that's unconstitutional? And what specific part of the U.S. are you claiming it violates? If this law's as obviously unconstitutional as you imply, that shouldn't be hard to answer.

Or maybe you're just saying we should all have the right to read the officer's mind, and if we imagine he had a bad intent, that's enough--he can't touch us. That kind of clairvoyance would be especially nice for anyone facing an expensive ticket. Maybe we should do the same with selecting juries, too. Each time, we can just call you or someone else who has your insights in, and let them read each lawyer's mind, so they can't engage in any "racial profiling" (whatever that is) when they pick which jurors they want.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 75
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/1/2010 3:12:35 PM

And what so wrong about racial profiling ?

If someone just robbed a house and took off down the street and was described to the police as a white man with light colored hair and blue eyes and here I am two blocks away taking a walk and I get stopped and questioned because I fit the profile.....


I will try to answer you this once, even though I have an idea that you aren't going to get it, simply because you don't want to.

If the police stop you because you look like one that committed a crime, and you are not the criminal, the most likely thing to occur will be that they will explain to you the reason why they stopped you, and if you are lucky to meet one of professional, courteous police officers who are doing their job to the best of their abilities, you might even get an apology for having been inconvenienced, and you will be on your way, perhaps feeling secure because the police is doing its job.

Now, if the police stopped you because your license plate is off, and instead of making you aware of the situation or even giving you a written warning after you had shown them your license and registration, they start asking you if you are legally here and ask you for your resident alien card, or proof that you are a citizen, you may start thinking that they stopped you because they wanted to harass you because of your appearance. If you don't have the proof they demand, they can arrest you and give you a fine for not having those papers. The cops may even say to you, while laughing, "we were looking for you!"

Do you get it now?

No! I thought so!
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