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 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 101
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?Page 5 of 23    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23)

A fifth column has developed in this country that wants to destroy America as it's always been.


NOW I understand all the effort to paint this law as "only effects illegals" and "isn't racist in the least"...

"Fifth columnists"...?

Ol' Joe would be so proud to know his spirit lives on...
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 102
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 11:47:29 AM
"A fifth column has developed in this country that wants to destroy America as it's always been. If anything is good for this country's unity and spirit, you can be sure they'll fill the campuses, the courts, and the streets doing everything they can to fight it. Like the Nazi and Soviet propagandists, they couldn't care less whether something is true. In fact, the idea behind Goebbels' "Big Lie" is that people are more likely to believe a whopper than a subtle lie."

Quite funny how Goebbels' "Big Lie" should be brought up to try to deny the racism at the heart of this debate. The Fifth Reich apparently studied Goebbels as is more than willing to demonize and marginalize the "inferior" races among us. Like Goebbels, our Nativists blame the Latinos and other non-aryans for everything wrong with the empire. Goebbels would highly endorse the Aryanzona Innitiative.

"The hundreds of thousands of foreign workers now employed in the Reich are a headache. The danger exists that intercourse between these workers and German women will cause a gradual deterioration of our race. This danger must be checked by every possible means. But it is difficult to discuss such questions in public because the peoples and nations affected immediantly take offense. For example, the Italians fight tooth and nail against being regarded as reacially inferior, or even different, from ourselves." Joseph Goebbels, The Goebbels Diaries, February 15, 1942

"Looking at this film I realized once again that the Jewish race is the most dangerous one that inhabits the globe, and we must show them no mercy or indulgence. This rifraff must be eliminated and destroyed. Otherwise it won't be possible to bring peace to the world." Joseph Goebbels, The Goebbels Diaries, February 18, 1942

"I consider the French people sick and worm-eaten. Nothing noteworthy in the way of positive contributions for the reconsturction of Europe is to be expected from them. Once more it has been proven that the Fuehrer's policy toward France has been absolutely right. One must put the Frenchmen on ice."
Joseph Goebbels, The Goebbels Diaries, April 2, 1942

”For when the Hungarians report that “they” have pacified a village, this usually means that not a single inhabitant is left. That means, in turn, that we can hardly get any agricultural work done in such regions.”
Joseph Goebbels, The Goebbels Diaries, May 19, 1942, pg. 219

"My collaborator Dr. Splett wrote me from Tunisia about the strange war customs of the Americans. The later, based entirely upon his observations, indicate that in a sense the Americans are still a half savage people."- Joseph Goebbels, The Goebbels Diaries, March 17, 1943 pg. 277

"With regard to the Jewish Question he approved of my measures and specifically ordered me to make Berlin entirely free of Jews. I shall see to it that there is no concubinage between Berlin Jews and foreign workers."
- Joseph Goebbels, The Goebbels Diaries, March 9, 1943 pg. 290

"A report on interrogations of American prisoners is really gruesome. These American boys are human material that can in no way stand in comparison with our people. One has the impression of dealing with a herd of savages."
- Joseph Goebbels, The Goebbels Diaries, April 9, 1943 pg. 317

At least the last one shows a bit of insight into the extremist elements in America.... and a reminder that the Aryans in America felt the same way about the French in 2003.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 103
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 12:56:29 PM

Ol' Joe would be so proud to know his spirit lives on.


If you're referring to Senator McCarthy, I doubt you know even the basic facts about him. Like President Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy--who worked as one of his top legal assistants and admired him greatly--I'm proud to defend Joe McCarthy any day as a very brave patriot. He has been--and obviously still is--a victim of a smear campaign by the disloyal people he helped reveal and their comrades in arms.

If you're interested in documented facts, rather than propaganda, I recommend Stanton Evans' meticulously researched "Blacklisted by History" and the several academic studies of the Venona Cables, which the U.S. government declassified in the 1990's. The careful analysis of decades' worth of intercepts of Soviet cables, cross-checking the code names against intelligence gathered in other ways, proves beyond any reasonable doubt that starting in the 1930's, Stalin had penetrated the U.S. government (and England's) and had managed to place agents in high offices in cabinet departments. The network also included many important helpers, who were scattered throughout various federal agencies, including ones involved in highly classified defense work.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 104
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 1:18:38 PM
In my experience, the people most preoccupied with racism often harbor racial animosities themselves. Much of what I'm seeing in the past week or so makes me think that all the more. I wouldn't expect much more from the kind of people certain countries seem to be crawling with, but when people who are taking up space in the U.S. run Americans down as know-nothings and Nazis, it's even more disgusting. Wherever they happen to live, the virulent outpourings of these twisted souls don't deserve any reasonable person's serious attention--except as a warning of someone who bears watching.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 105
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 1:18:42 PM
If you're referring to Senator McCarthy, I doubt you know even the basic facts about him.

Well, likely no less than you given that neither of us are old enough to have any reliable memory or direct experience of his "witch hunts"... Considering he died in '57 and was "persona non grata" before either of us were born...

I'm proud to defend Joe McCarthy any day as a very brave patriot. He has been--and obviously still is--a victim of a smear campaign by the disloyal people he helped reveal and their comrades in arms.

and

Wherever they happen to live, the virulent outpourings of these twisted souls don't deserve any reasonable person's serious attention--except as a warning of someone who bears watching.

Thank you for being open enough to honestly announce your 'point-of-view' on these matters... It makes it much easier to understand the intent and goal of your support of the Arizona law and efforts to make it APPEAR inocuous...

Now, are you prepared to answer this...?

So... John Doe, who responds to questions about status with "I am an American citizen, I was born here" and refuses to produce further documentation of that, like a birth certificate (because he doesn't HAVE to)... What are your officer's going to do...?

They have no means at their immediate disposal to verify his "natural born" status... There is NO avenue for them to do this that doesn't involve detention of a length that exceeds the SCOTUS definition of "reasonable intrusion" (meaning it has now proceeded to a "full blown arrest" requiring Miranda rights and the full protections of ALL relevant amendments)... There is NO federal database of natural born citizens that is readily available to the patrol officer, the station OR federal immigration authorities to be able to verify natural born status within the bounds established by SCOTUS for a "temporary detention" that doesn't rise to the standard of the 4th... And, as a matter of course, the police would not even be able to obtain federal immigration information on non-natural born individuals in anything less than day(s)... There is NO centralized data-base accessible to the officers from their cruisers as there is with arrest records (And, again, we have now proceeded beyond the limits established by SCOTUS for distinguishing a "detention that is less than arrest" to a "full blown arrest")... In short, by the standards established by SCOTUS, it is virtually impossible to ascertain the natural born status of a natural born citizen without arresting them...

Are they going to...

1) Simply state "OK, no harm, no foul, I was just asking" and allow the person to go about their business with no further direct intrusion...

2) Treat his refusal to provide the proof as "probable cause" to arrest based on the contention that he is here illegally and therefore in violation of the "unlawfully present" section...

and this...?

This is a patently false mischaracterization... These elements only mean that a legal resident/natural born citizen can't be CONVICTED of the offense... NOTHING in this prevents them from being ARRESTED under its net and, in fact, it almost guarantees it for anyone who stands up to this "show us your papers" totalitarianism...
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 106
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 1:42:57 PM
Joseph McCarthy is a hero?


Since the time of McCarthy, the word McCarthyism has entered American speech as a general term for a variety of practices: aggressively questioning a person's patriotism, making poorly supported accusations, using accusations of disloyalty to pressure a person to adhere to conformist politics or to discredit an opponent, subverting civil rights in the name of national security, and the use of demagoguery are all often referred to as McCarthyism

This the nut who accused Marshall of being a commie and the dangers of fluoridation of water.


Shaking my head.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 107
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 2:20:43 PM
I think any cop can stop any citizen any time he wants and ask for ID. With no "good" reason. No "reasonable cause", either, that is ONLY applicable to SEARCHES, from my understanding.

Oh, they absolutely CAN ask... for any reason or no reason at all... Just like I can ask you for ID, anytime, for any reason or no reason at all... But, just like with me, you can refuse without prejudice... Just like with me, you can say "Who do you think you are? I've got my ID right here." (and then do the "crotch grab")... What they CAN'T LEGALLY do, without good reason, is to stop you from leaving until you provide the ID, or arrest you simply for refusing to provide it/answer questions... For that they do have to have a legal reason...

If you are walking around in the public domain, the cops rule.

No they don't... Some of them THINK they do and grossly abuse their power (police forces tend to be magnets for those with unresolved power and control issues, for obvious reasons. Where else can those types get to carry a gun with impunity and attempt to force any average Joe to "respect their 'authori-tie'", to quote Cartman)... But that is NOT what policing is all about, and thank God for the ones who actually do understand and respect this...

the dangers of fluoridation of water.

*GASP*... You mean it ISN'T a commie plot to sap us of our vital, patriotic fluids and make us all docile for the blood-less take-over by "foreign forces"...?
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 108
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 2:24:57 PM

As soon as you are handcuffed, locked in the back of the cruiser/wagon or taken to the station


Again, you're describing an arrest, which has nothing to do with temporary detention. Your other claims that this law would inevitably lead to many arrests of innocent citizens are not supported. I don't think you can know how long the officials would detain someone, in practice. You claim the Court has set this or that limit, or authorized this, but not that--but you don't cite any decisions. I assumed you were arguing in good faith but just didn't understand the difference. What I now see in your post tells me something else--but that doesn't surprise me.


anyone who stands up to this "show us your papers" totalitarianism...[.quote]

That's a very strange way to describe a federal law that was first enacted during FDR's presidency, and which various Congresses have continued to amend--which courts take as implied approval of a law. It's a propagandist's slogan rather than reasoning.


and refuses to produce further documentation of that, like a birth certificate (because he doesn't HAVE to).


Again, more nonsense. The Court has never interpreted the 4th Amendment to mean police can't ask people for a driver's license or other identification. I even quoted from the decisions on that point. And when they have the reasonable suspicion they need to detain someone temporarily--whether it's a U.S. citizen or anyone else--the person's inability or refusal to cooperate may be one of the things that create the probable cause needed to arrest them.


When people try to play little 'word games' with the law


You reveal yourself as a non-lawyer pretending to understand the law. Anyone who really does understand it knows better than to think of legal analysis as "playing little word games with the law." Laws are all about words, and lawyers are constantly involved in the fine points of what they mean. If you'd read many cases, you'd know that what you call little word games are exactly the fine distinctions courts often have to make.

Not only do you not understand the law, it's clear to me that you're purposely misunderstanding this one. I explained it in great detail, but you continue to try to confuse the issues to make things come out to suit your prejudices. I've cited you two Supreme Court decisions on point and the federal law that you dismiss as "show your papers totalitarianism."

I'm not going to spend any more time trying to give a short course in criminal procedure to someone who doesn't want to understand the difference between the reasonable suspicion and probable cause standards, between temporary detention and arrest, and so on. There's a he!! of a lot more to analyzing a law than going to some website, collecting this or that legal principle, and then slapping them together to try to support your prejudices. Anyone's free to read your assertions about this law and to find them persuasive, or not.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 109
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 2:37:16 PM
A perspective from a man who has lived through this. I find it quite disheartening how willingly Americans were willing to give up rights in the last decade, and more than willing to take away the rights of others in this one.

Arizona-The Wrong Answer

http://thecommunity.com/blog/2010/04/28/arizona-the-wrong-answer/
by ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU

I am saddened today at the prospect of a young Hispanic immigrant in Arizona going to the grocery store and forgetting to bring her passport and immigration documents with her. I cannot be dispassionate about the fact that the very act of her being in the grocery store will soon be a crime in the state she lives in. Or that should a policeman hear her accent and form a “reasonable suspicion” that she is an illegal immigrant, she can – and will – be taken into custody until someone sorts it out, while her children are at home waiting for their dinner.

Equally disturbing is what will happen in the mind of the policeman. The police talk today about how they do not wish to, and will not, engage in racial profiling. Yet faced with the option of using common sense and compassion, or harassing a person who has done nothing wrong, a particularly sinister aspect of Arizona's new immigration law will be hanging over his head. He can be personally sued, by ANYONE, for failing to enforce this inhumane new act.

I recognize that Arizona has become a widening entry point for illegal immigration from the South. The wave has brought with it rising violence and drug smuggling.

But a solution that degrades innocent people, or that makes anyone with broken English a suspect, is not a solution. A solution that fails to distinguish between a young child coming over the border in search of his mother and a drug smuggler is not a solution.

I am not speaking from an ivory tower. I lived in the South Africa that has now thankfully faded into history, where a black man or woman could be grabbed off the street and thrown in jail for not having his or her documents on their person.

How far can this go? We lived it -- police waking a man up in the middle of the night and hauling him off to jail for not having his documents on his person while he slept. The fact that they were in his nightstand near the bed was not good enough.

Of course if you suggested such a possibility today to an Arizona policeman he would be adamant that he would never do such a thing. And I would believe him. Arizona is a long way from apartheid South Africa.

The problem is, under the new law, the one or two who WOULD do it are legitimized. All they have to say is that they believed that illegal immigrants were being harbored in the house. They would be protected and sanctioned by this law.

Abominations such as Apartheid do not start with an entire population suddenly becoming inhumane. They start here. They start with generalizing unwanted characteristics across an entire segment of a population. They start with trying to solve a problem by asserting superior force over a population. They start with stripping people of rights and dignity – such as the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty – that you yourself enjoy. Not because it is right, but because you can. And because somehow, you think this is going to solve a problem.

However, when you strip a man or a woman of their basic human rights, you strip them of their dignity in the eyes of their family and their community, and even in their own eyes. An immigrant who is charged with the crime of trespassing for simply being in a community without his papers on him is being told he is committing a crime by simply being. He or she feels degraded and feels they are of less worth than others of a different color skin. These are the seeds of resentment, hostilities and in extreme cases, conflict.

Such “solutions” solve nothing. As already pointed out, even by people on the police force, Arizona's new laws will split the communities, make it less likely that people in the immigrant communities will work with the police. They will create conditions favorable to the very criminals these laws are trying to disarm.

The Latinos in Arizona have not come to Arizona because they want to live in communities wracked with violence and crime. I would guess that the most recent arrivals have fled their border towns and the growing violence there as drug lords tightened their control of the communities. They want to live and raise their children in peace, just as you or I do.

I am certain that, given the chance, the leaders of the Latino immigrant communities in Arizona would enthusiastically work with the State to find constructive solutions to these problems. I am very sure that they would like, as much as others, to rid Arizona of the drug smugglers, human traffickers and other criminal elements infiltrating their communities.

We can only hope that this law will be thrown out of the courts in short order. I do not disagree with the calls to boycott the businesses in the State until it is turned around.

In the meantime, it has opened the door to some smart State leaders sitting down with the leaders of the Latino communities in Arizona and hammering out some solutions that actually work. Hopefully these solutions would recognize the difference between a drug smuggler and a man willing to stand outside a gas station in the hot sun for hours in the hopes that someone will give him some work for the day.

The problem of migrating populations is not going to go away any time soon. If anyone should know this, it should be Americans, many of whom landed here themselves to escape persecution, famine or conflict. With the eyes of the world now on them, Arizona has the opportunity to create a new model for dealing with the pitfalls, and help the nation as a whole find its way through the problems of illegal immigration. But to work, it must be a model that is based on a deep respect for the essential human rights Americans themselves have grown up enjoying.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 110
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 2:42:54 PM

This the nut who accused Marshall of being a commie and the dangers of fluoridation of water.


I know what he said about Marshall. Someone else actually wrote it, and it was probably a serious mistake for Sen. McCarthy to stand behind it. I have no idea what he had to do with fluoridating water.

You might want to educate yourself about Sen. McCarthy, rather than just swallowing "what everyone knows is true." I mentioned in my other post that what's entered American speech, etc.--the version you offer--is very far from the truth. You don't need to take my word for it, because a lot of new information has come to light, long after the derogatory view of McCarthy had been sold to most people as fact. Many of the lurid claims in several of the early biographies have been proven false.

The documents involved in all this run into the many hundreds of thousands of pages, and it takes some serious research to get all the facts. Evans spent about six years finding and researching original documents for his book.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 111
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 3:03:57 PM
Again, you're describing an arrest, which has nothing to do with temporary detention.

So, perhaps you can tell us how "detaining", under police control, an individual until a process, which can take DAYS to complete (verifying natural born citizenship of an unco-operative citizen), could ever be lawfully considered "temporary" under SCOTUS rulings or the Constitution...

Please do try... I'm eager to see how you will justify this...

You claim the Court has set this or that limit, or authorized this, but not that--but you don't cite any decisions.

Yes, I do make thoise claims... And where have you cited decisions which support your contention that holding a natural born citizen, or anyone for that matter, long enough to confirm this status is considered "reasonable"... You did mention "Terry stops" and such but the supreme court HAS set conditions on those which establish "reasonableness" and this situation doesn't meet them... I wonder if you can show how they DO support you without ignoring entire sections as you attempted to do with the Arizona statute...?

What I now see in your post tells me something else--but that doesn't surprise me.

And what would that be...? Can you be specific...?


anyone who stands up to this "show us your papers" totalitarianism...


That's a very strange way to describe a federal law that was first enacted during FDR's presidency, and which various Congresses have continued to amend--which courts take as implied approval of a law. It's a propagandist's slogan rather than reasoning.

How disingenuous... We aren't talking about "federal law"... We ARE talking about Arizona law... I would think that the fact that the law in question was passed by the ARIZONA LEGISLATURE and NOT the fed's would be a strong hint of that... However, if the argument in support of your position is SO weak that it requires such obvious deflection... Well... Oh, and I should point out that deliberately misquoting other posters in order to make it seem as though they are making a point they aren't can get you a "vacation"...


and refuses to produce further documentation of that, like a birth certificate (because he doesn't HAVE to).


Again, more nonsense. The Court has never interpreted the 4th Amendment to mean police can't ask people for a driver's license or other identification.

I've never said they CAN'T ASK... But, there is no requirement to comply, as YOU acknowledged in this post...

As noted earlier, the Court's made clear the 4th Am. doesn't require officials to have any reasonable suspicion of a violation of law to question a person briefly, or to ask for identification. Of course, under those circumstances, the person's free to refuse.

When did your position on this change...?

You reveal yourself as a non-lawyer pretending to understand the law. Anyone who really does understand it knows better than to think of legal analysis as "playing little word games with the law." Laws are all about words, and lawyers are constantly involved in the fine points of what they mean. If you'd read many cases, you'd know that what you call little word games are exactly the fine distinctions courts often have to make.

Not only do you not understand the law, it's clear to me that you're purposely misunderstanding this one. I explained it in great detail, but you continue to try to confuse the issues to make things come out to suit your prejudices.

There is not an argument or citation made that would stand before a federal judge, much less the Supremes... They are "word games" specifically because they are deliberately vague, misrepresentative of the actual facts and utterly inconsistent with virtually every ruling on the matters you bring up, such as your "distinction" regarding "temporary detention"... As though simply calling it "temporary" means it can continue for any arbitrary length of time...

And... You still have not answered to how your "interpretation" and "analysis" (creative as it may be) answers to these questions...

So... John Doe, who responds to questions about status with "I am an American citizen, I was born here" and refuses to produce further documentation of that, like a birth certificate (because he doesn't HAVE to)... What are your officer's going to do...?

They have no means at their immediate disposal to verify his "natural born" status... There is NO avenue for them to do this that doesn't involve detention of a length that exceeds the SCOTUS definition of "reasonable intrusion" (meaning it has now proceeded to a "full blown arrest" requiring Miranda rights and the full protections of ALL relevant amendments)... There is NO federal database of natural born citizens that is readily available to the patrol officer, the station OR federal immigration authorities to be able to verify natural born status within the bounds established by SCOTUS for a "temporary detention" that doesn't rise to the standard of the 4th... And, as a matter of course, the police would not even be able to obtain federal immigration information on non-natural born individuals in anything less than day(s)... There is NO centralized data-base accessible to the officers from their cruisers as there is with arrest records (And, again, we have now proceeded beyond the limits established by SCOTUS for distinguishing a "detention that is less than arrest" to a "full blown arrest")... In short, by the standards established by SCOTUS, it is virtually impossible to ascertain the natural born status of a natural born citizen without arresting them...

Are they going to...

1) Simply state "OK, no harm, no foul, I was just asking" and allow the person to go about their business with no further direct intrusion...

2) Treat his refusal to provide the proof as "probable cause" to arrest based on the contention that he is here illegally and therefore in violation of the "unlawfully present" section...

and this...?

This is a patently false mischaracterization... These elements only mean that a legal resident/natural born citizen can't be CONVICTED of the offense... NOTHING in this prevents them from being ARRESTED under its net and, in fact, it almost guarantees it for anyone who stands up to this "show us your papers" totalitarianism...

They seem to be questions you wish to avoid... Why...?
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 112
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 4:14:08 PM
I'm so curious as to how immigration laws should be enforced. How is it possible to arrest someone for breaking the law without finding out if they are breaking the law? How should this problem be handled if not by state police in the line of normal duty? If all you have to say is "I'm American. I was born here" then wicked. We're all in. Trash all the immigration laws you currently have because they're all f'cked and nobody has to prove anything.

No matter what changes occur in political worlds, economic worlds, and social worlds, people are always going to try to sneak into "better" countries for a chance at better lives. Whether it's Mexico to the USA or the USA to Canada (looking forward to that scenario) someone is always going to try to get around the law for a shot at the dream. How do you protect citizens from the problems that this brings (see above post)?
 SAguy_06
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 113
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 4:39:47 PM

Some towns in Texas also have strict renting laws


thats incorrect. Framer's branch is the only small town that has tried to limit rentals to unauthorized aliens. the law has never seen the light of day. it has been challanged in court and has never been used.

We are not broke, Texas is not broke and it may be that poor ol Az is broke, but they caused some of their own mess. Cheap labor and no ride home.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 114
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 4:45:57 PM
Classy Chassis...glad you brought up Postville, IA. Or at least I think it was the "big bust" you referring to. My dad lived in Iowa and I watched with repeated trips to see him, how the lily white Lutheran town evolved to multicultural, first with the Hasidic new owers, the union bust, the replacement of and exploitation of, Latino labor, the latent and then blatant racsism amongst people who voted for Obama, and the greed and corruption that drove that change in the work place. I was a meat packer when young and fresh off the farm. I know the trade a bit, working in a Kosher plant of the era. Things have changed in 4 decades. The guy that owns our old farm hires folks from southern Mexico to milk the cows, a job that most anglo kids of the time were born into and expected to do, much like the packing plants when more money was desired. However, profit and exploitation have taken over the meat packing industry, like many in the US that demand slave labor. The Latino/Hispanic workforce is merely a symptom of the disease of American capitalism that demands such a work force. A couple of examples.

http://imagine2050.newcomm.org/2009/02/25/beyond-belief-the-exploitation-of-mentally-disabled-iowa-turkey-workers/
slave labor..in Postville.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2009/03/year-without-mexican
is slave labor Kosher?..
http://www.forward.com/articles/105674/
http://iowaindependent.com/2444/in-wake-of-postville-raids-modern-slave-labor-author-shares-perspective

One of the ironies of watching this play out in lilio white land, was watching Byron and Jennifer, the people who took stewardship of our organic farm, change and become more compassionate as they adopted families from thousands of miles away, a far cry from the Rubashkins of the US who demand this slavery, drive immigration, legal and not, condone it when they can get by with it, and profit mightily from the misery of others and the unemployment of previous immigrants here for a few generations and no longer affordable.
 fishiesfishies
Joined: 9/5/2009
Msg: 115
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 5:52:18 PM
This is hilarious, illegal immigrants are marching and protesting against the laws of the country they came to seek their dreams come true......Some legal American citizens like the celebrities are helping them in their protest, and the American people are sitting by on their hands letting it all happen....... If the American people are so disgruntled with these illegals taking over their country, why are they not marching, and organizing peaceful protests?...
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 116
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 7:27:56 PM
"This is hilarious, illegal immigrants are marching and protesting against the laws of the country they came to seek their dreams come true......Some legal American citizens like the celebrities are helping them in their protest, and the American people are sitting by on their hands letting it all happen....... If the American people are so disgruntled with these illegals taking over their country, why are they not marching, and organizing peaceful protests?..."

It is truly hilarious and ironic up the wahzoo... A bunch of european and other illegal immigrants running away from persecution or seeking a dream, cross oceans, invade a place, wipe out as many of the locals as possible, steal land from them, make treaties, break em often and consistently, enslave the folks of another continents, drag them over oceans, then demand the survivors services because they would starve otherwise, then complain that the original inhabitants can out peace them with their protests. The invaders now play the victim card, though still in the majority with all the weapons, the courts, the rules, and cops and still whine. Illegal immigrants ARE marching, only now they are called the TEA BAGGERS. Get over it folks. The nation and the planet has always been a melting pot since the earth cooled and Aryans got their butts kicked.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 117
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History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 9:11:39 PM
Would that it were easy to understand what the heck the new law actually says. Reporters on TV and online all report VOLUMES about the folks who are angry about it, but don't spend much time on what it actually says. The law itself is written in "legalspeak," so I can't figure that our either.
Some explanations I've heard about it make it sound perfectly logical, and others make it sound awful.
As for the sneaky political games that get played by BOTH sides in situations like this, I'm sure they are happening with this too, at least to the point that all politicians will try to find a way to make something like this work to their benefit.
 kittybiscuit
Joined: 2/11/2007
Msg: 118
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/2/2010 10:12:14 PM
Requiring documents for aliens is already federal law. It just isn't enforced.

Any immigrant or non-immigrant is already required to have proof of status with them at all times. INA Section 264(e)

(e) Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him pursuant to subsection (d). Any alien who fails to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 119
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History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/3/2010 6:58:47 AM
"Any immigrant or non-immigrant is already required to have proof of status with them at all times. INA Section 264(e)"
I assume that by "non-immigrant", you mean US citizen. Citizens do not currently have to carry a National ID card for free movement within the borders. To come up with such a National ID card would outrage the very same people who are all for Hispanic-Americans having to routinely prove citizenship in Aryanzona. Requiring all citizens to have a National ID card is a dangerous slippery slope. The ACLU brought up some very scary points in 2003 when some were panicking about the need for a National ID card.
http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/5-problems-national-id-cards


Not sure if the Dems are proposing this to make a point, be ironic, try to shock conservatives into actual participation to solve the issue, or have embraced Big Brother...
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/95235-democrats-spark-alarm-with-call-for-national-id-card
snip..
A plan by Senate Democratic leaders to reform the nation’s immigration laws ran into strong opposition from civil liberties defenders before lawmakers even unveiled it Thursday.

Democratic leaders have proposed requiring every worker in the nation to carry a national identification card with biometric information, such as a fingerprint, within the next six years, according to a draft of the measure.

The proposal is one of the biggest differences between the newest immigration reform proposal and legislation crafted by late Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) and Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.).

The national ID program would be titled the Believe System, an acronym for Biometric Enrollment, Locally stored Information and Electronic Verification of Employment.

It would require all workers across the nation to carry a card with a digital encryption key that would have to match work authorization databases.

“The cardholder’s identity will be verified by matching the biometric identifier stored within the microprocessing chip on the card to the identifier provided by the cardholder that shall be read by the scanner used by the employer,” states the Democratic legislative proposal.

The American Civil Liberties Union, a civil liberties defender often aligned with the Democratic Party, wasted no time in blasting the plan.

“Creating a biometric national ID will not only be astronomically expensive, it will usher government into the very center of our lives. Every worker in America will need a government permission slip in order to work. And all of this will come with a new federal bureaucracy — one that combines the worst elements of the DMV and the TSA,” said Christopher Calabrese, ACLU legislative counsel.

“America’s broken immigration system needs real, workable reform, but it cannot come at the expense of privacy and individual freedoms,” Calabrese added.

The ACLU said “if the biometric national ID card provision of the draft bill becomes law, every worker in America would have to be fingerprinted.”

A source at one pro-immigration reform group described the proposal as “Orwellian.”

But Senate Democratic Whip****Durbin (Ill.), who has worked on the proposal and helped unveil it at a press conference Thursday, predicted the public has become more comfortable with the idea of a national identification card.

“The biometric identification card is a critical element here,” Durbin said. “For a long time it was resisted by many groups, but now we live in a world where we take off our shoes at the airport and pull out our identification.

“People understand that in this vulnerable world, we have to be able to present identification,” Durbin added. “We want it to be reliable, and I think that’s going to help us in this debate on immigration.”

Implementing a nationwide identification program for every worker will be a difficult task.

The Social Security Administration has estimated that 3.6 million Americans would have to visit SSA field offices to correct mistakes in records or else risk losing their jobs.

Angela Kelley, vice president of immigration policy at the Center for American Progress, a liberal think tank, said the biometric identification provision “will give some people pause.”

RELATED ARTICLES

* Dems pledge to move toward 2010 immigration vote
* Dems introduce immigration framework
* Read the text of the immigration proposal

But she applauded Democrats for not shying away from the toughest issues in the immigration reform debate.

“What I like about the outline is that Democrats are not trying to hide the ball or soft-pedal the tough decisions,” Kelley said. “It seems a very sincere effort to get the conversation started. This is a serious effort to get Republicans to the table.”

Reform Immigration for America, a pro-immigrant group, praised Democrats for getting the discussion started but said the framework fell short.

“The proposal revealed today [Thursday] is in part the result of more than a year of bipartisan negotiations and represents a possible path forward on immigration reform,” the group said in a statement. “This framework is not there yet.”

Democrats and pro-immigration groups will now begin to put pressure on Republicans to participate in serious talks to address the issue. The bipartisan effort in the Senate suffered a serious setback when Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) pulled back from talks with Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.).

“We call on Republican Senators to review this framework and sit down at the negotiating table in good faith,” Reform Immigration for America said in a statement. “This is a national problem that requires a federal solution and the input of leaders in both parties.”

Durbin said Democratic leaders are trying to recruit other Republican partners.

“We’re making a commitment to establishing a framework to work toward comprehensive immigration reform, and I think it’s a good framework and now we’re engaging our friends on the other side of the aisle to join us in this conversation,” Durbin said.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 120
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/3/2010 11:06:43 AM

With a all due respect ladies if illegal immigartation were a net drain on our economy the corporate folks pulling strings in our government wouldn't keep doing it. Millions of illegal immigrantgs pay social security and payroll taxes they will NEVER collect on. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? If not please think about making your third grade teacher proud and do some REAL math next time before you try and blame poor folks that are by in large just looking for a better life like most of our ancestors did. Think about the fact that if there were not jobs for these people here they would not come.

"Think! Its very patriotic,"


So there are millions paying that will never collect huh?
How about the millions of illegal immigrants collecting welfare food stamps health care and education that are not paying taxes?

I know for a fact they will stack 3-4 families in a house one or two there will work the rest will "live off the system!!!
I can't tell you how many $40,000.00 trucks and cars parked by a dilapidated trailer and the same people carting out three buggies of meat from the store paid for by food stamps.

If you want to come here great do it the legal way!!! If you don't you have no right to be here or to live off the taxpayers AND YOU DANG SURE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE!!!!
The one right they do have is to go back home!!!!!
 sammylg
Joined: 12/20/2006
Msg: 121
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/3/2010 12:13:35 PM
"If this is the case, with a Democratic ruled senate, house and presidency, why isn't it happening? Crickets ............... "

The truth is that the crickets have been chirping for more than a decade now. The lack of a Federal mandate is the fault of both the Federal Democrats and Republicans for not having the backbone to do so.

Having said that, I would be fully supportive (not that it matters since I can't vote) of a two part policy.

1. Close the borders so we don't add to the 12~14 million illegals that are here already.
2. Figure out what to do with those here.

I find it strange that the politicians are not willing to do 1 without the other.
 Whatisis
Joined: 4/30/2010
Msg: 122
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/3/2010 12:21:44 PM



Returning troll - removed


 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 123
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/3/2010 1:25:47 PM

Close the borders


I don't find it that strange that they're not willing to do this part of your suggestion. IMO, any ideas some people may have about manned border walls, borders that are sealed tight, etc, are essentially unrealistic if not to say silly. Mexico is a key trading partner with the US (third largest), trading more than a billion a day (and that number may well be more by now).

" ... To put this in perspective, Mexico and the U.S. do as much business in goods and service in just over a month as Mexico does with all 27 countries of the European Union combined in a year.

* U.S. goods exports to Mexico were $134.2 billion in 2006, up 11.5% from 2005. U.S. goods imports from Mexico were $198.3 billion in 2006, up 16.6% from 2005.
* Since NAFTA implementation in 1994, U.S. exports to Mexico have risen 223% and Mexican exports to the U.S. have grown 396%.
* 85% of Mexico’s total exports go to the U.S. and are valued at $212 billion dollars.
* 51% of Mexico’s total imports come from the U.S. and are valued at $130 billion dollars.... "

on FDI (foreign direct investment) , the site goes on,

" U.S. foreign direct investment in Mexico totals more than $84 billion dollars, concentrated largely in the manufacturing and banking sectors.

• Over 2,600 U.S. firms have an important presence in Mexico. One such company, Wal-Mart, is the largest private sector employer in the country, with nearly 150,000 Mexicans on its payroll...

Mexico is the second largest market for U.S. agricultural exports.

• U.S. agricultural exports to Mexico have more than doubled under NAFTA since 1993, reaching $10.9 billion dollars in 2006.

• Trade growth has been remarkably balanced, with U.S. agricultural exports to Mexico increasing $7.6 billion dollars and U.S. agricultural imports from Mexico increasing $7.4 billion during between 1994 and 2006.

• Mexico is our largest market for beef, dairy, swine, rice, turkey, apples, soymeal, sorghum, and dry beans. "

Do you build a Berlin-style wall, manned with guards, around one of your biggest business partners?? The way the US gov't looks at things, we are all in business together. The poor conditions down there (in some places worse than others) , leading to some population spillover to here, is probably something they've always expected and taken into consideration as cost of business; also, the US gov't does get something out of them (the undocumented workers).

As has been pointed out in this thread and others here, the undocumented workers do pay into the US gov't. In fact, in many cases they pay more than what they ever are able to claim (due to their status) as far as benefits.

In times like these, the US gov't is not really in a position to suddenly "round up and throw out" any steady source of tax monies (some of which for example goes towards social security -- something these Mexican workers will likely never be able to get, despite having paid into it). If anything, the gov't would benefit more through another amnesty. A) the votes, Hispanic / Mexican voting bloc; B) even more taxes that can then be levied on them once they are legal and are able to work documented.

So the gov' t is "all for" enforcing existing law, but IMO only up to a point. You can see the fed'l gov't's interest quickly wanes.

As far as why they have not moved on the issue yet, I have no idea. Their silence , particularly in the face of this new AZ law, is loud, and I believe they should be doing something about it, addressing the issue with more than just rhetoric. Neither party will be anxious however, IMO, to alienate the entire potential Hispanic/Mexican voting bloc by being the one seen to stand squarely behind this kind of law (the kind seen in AZ).

So expect more waffling, and IMO expect an eventual "fast-track to citizenship" type of proposal to come about one way or the other. The majority of them will eventually be made citizens, is my prediction. And the southern border will never be "closed", at least not in the kind of manner that some on the Right seem to desire. It's just not going to happen. Too much money involved.

http://mexico.usembassy.gov/eng/eataglance_trade.html (site quoted from above)
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 124
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/3/2010 1:31:51 PM
Not sure if the Dems are proposing this to make a point, be ironic, try to shock conservatives into actual participation to solve the issue, or have embraced Big Brother...

Well, I'll bet that ALL the conservatives and Teabaggers will jump on board with both feet... This is the answer to their "illegals are ruining our country" dreams...

Plus, it completely and totally dovetails with the new Arizona law they are so supportive of...

I'll bet every Republican senator/representative, every Republican governor, every Teabagger will be rallying to the side of Obama and the Dems...

There won't be even the slightest peep about the Constitution or States' rights or commie socialist policies...

...Right...?

I mean... Anything less would reveal them as histrionic obstructionists with no REAL patriotism, no REAL concern for the country...

...Right...?
 valenciacityx
Joined: 3/10/2009
Msg: 125
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/3/2010 2:39:34 PM
We could return the favor, and off ship all of our AARP members to tropical Costa Rica or Baja California.
they will drive up the cost of living there, make more local workers displaced and have to come north for a 'better' life.
Yep, If I were retirin, I wouldnt do it here, and certainly not in Arizona.
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