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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 151
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?Page 7 of 23    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23)
The racial profiling is already taking place. The law only codifies the right of officers to use profiling, protecting the officers, and placing an even greater burden of proof for citizens to show they are citizens. Even if a birth certificate is finally obtained, as in the case of the Minnesota man below, you may still be detained while the bureaucracy "verifies" the authenticity of your papers. As the 3rd article points out, if you are poor, mentally disabled or unable to obtain your birth certificate while behind bars, you can be detained for extended periods of time or even deported to a country you've never seen, even if you are an American citizen. The majority of people arrested on suspicion of being illegal, cannot afford lawyers. If you look at the faces of the people in the first two videos, they have been terrorized for simply having accents and the wrong ethnic look.

http://carlosmiller.com/2010/05/06/another-american-born-citizen-jailed-in-arizona-because-her-skin-was-brown/
http://guanabee.com/2010/04/american-truck-driver-illegal-alien-arizona-sb1070/
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2008/01/24/25392/immigration-officials-detaining.html
snip..
FLORENCE, Ariz. — Thomas Warziniack was born in Minnesota and grew up in Georgia, but immigration authorities pronounced him an illegal immigrant from Russia.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement has held Warziniack for weeks in an Arizona detention facility with the aim of deporting him to a country he's never seen. His jailers shrugged off Warziniack's claims that he was an American citizen, even though they could have retrieved his Minnesota birth certificate in minutes and even though a Colorado court had concluded that he was a U.S. citizen a year before it shipped him to Arizona.

On Thursday, Warziniack finally became a free man. Immigration officials released him after his family, who learned about his predicament from McClatchy, produced a birth certificate and after a U.S. senator demanded his release.
end snip..
snip..
Proving citizenship is especially difficult for the poor, mentally ill, disabled or anyone who has trouble getting a copy of his or her birth certificate while behind bars.

Pedro Guzman, a mentally disabled U.S. citizen who was born in Los Angeles, was serving a 120-day sentence for trespassing last year when he was shipped off to Mexico. Guzman was found three months later trying to return home. Although federal government attorneys have acknowledged that Guzman was a citizen, ICE spokeswoman Virginia Kice said Thursday that her agency still questions the validity of his birth certificate.
Last March, ICE agents in San Francisco detained Kebin Reyes, a 6-year-old boy who was born in the U.S., for 10 hours after his father was picked up in a sweep. His father says he wasn't permitted to call relatives who could care for his son, although ICE denies turning down the request.
The number of U.S. citizens who are swept up in the immigration system is a small fraction of the number of illegal immigrants who are deported, but in the last several years immigration lawyers report seeing more detainees who turn out to be U.S. citizens.
The attorneys said the chances of mistakes are growing as immigration agents step up sweeps in the country and state and local prisons with less experience in immigration matters screen more criminals on behalf of ICE.
end snip..
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 152
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/10/2010 8:33:04 AM

I see that the rightwing supporters of this bill are still unable to explain why it's OK to ignore the constitution and allow searches without probable cause.


Once again, read the law or any other law for that matter, and understand that reasonable suspicion is all that is required for a limited search of anyone such as asking for ID. Race is not enough for a reasonable suspicion of a crime. This law sets much higher standards for that than currently exist federally. If you want, just point out the part where it says cops can search someone without any reason.

I hear you Earthpuppy. Unfortunately lots of people will be wrongly held. However is this reason for scrapping all immigration laws? Because that's what you're saying. The only law you could possibly enforce would be if you catch someone swimming, driving, digging or flying illegally across. And that obviously hasn't worked and you get guys demanding 12 foot electrified fences. Every single law has incidences of wrongful convictions yet we still need these laws. If you think illegal immigration is not a problem, then fine. Scrap it. What do I care? I just don't agree with eliminating laws because there is a chance of someone being wrongfully detained or a chance of police not doing their job properly. That would be pretty chaotic.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 153
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/10/2010 11:49:54 AM

"Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
' With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


The above pertains to those coming into the country LEGALLY. It should not be removed, but it might have to be if we don't curtail all the people coming in ILLEGALLY. (Which, by the way, about 67,000 of whom are Canadian according to estimates.)

But doesn't it amaze some that this country, that is the verbal whipping boy of nearly every other country, has so many people itching to get in? Kinda humorous isn't it? If we could somehow deport every illegal alien tomorrow, by the next day thousands more would be attempting to get in. Both legally and illegally. Must not be such a bad place after all.........
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 154
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/10/2010 1:25:54 PM
This law isn't based on virgin legal grounds. There have been cases already in other states that deal with these issues.
....

In short, the supreme court decided that a state cop acted fairly and that
....

And here is a definition of what constitutes probable cause in a case like what would be typical in Arizona.

If you are going to attempt to "finesse" a case to support your position you really should pick something a little less transparent than Estrada v. State of Rhode Island

Why...? Because it DOESN'T support your contention... From the case...

... sometime before Officer Chabot returned to his vehicle to run Tamup's license, many or most of the Plaintiffs had essentially admitted being in the country illegally...

...Plaintiffs Tamup and Estrada both testified in their depositions that they had admitted to Officer Chabot that they and the rest of the passengers were not in the country legally...

...two Plaintiffs had essentially admitted on their behalf and on the behalf of the rest of the passengers, that they were in the country illegally...

There's your "probable cause"... All the stuff you mentioned... That merely gave them suspicion to ASK for proof of status... not probable cause to arrest for being "unlawfully present", that came from the "admission" of illegal status...

Second... The case was a civil suit, not a criminal trial, and the decision was one of whether the officers enjoyed "privileged immunity", in short, should/could they reasonably have known whether they were violating rights... And, given that they had probable cause (the admission)... Well, different kettle of fish than arresting for simply "not having your papers"...
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 155
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/10/2010 2:31:00 PM
Chabot asked first, then the answers he was given or in this case, wasn't given, constituted probably cause. If it was illegal to ask, he would have had his butt tossed out of court. Do you think all fourteen guys just threw their hands in the air and said "We're here illegally!" all on their own? Read the judgment. If they had said nothing at all, refused to provide any documentation, the result would have been the same. He was right. They were undocumented workers. He used his experience, knowledge etc to determine a crime was likely being committed. Read this again...


<div class="quote">(1) Plaintiffs were headed to work; (2) most were unable to produce any identification,and of the four who did, two could produce only identifications issued by the Guatemalan consulate; and (3) they spoke little English. Officer Chabot also testified that passengers, of whom he requests documentation as a matter of routine, are able to produce valid identification more than 99 percent of the time. All of these facts combined may well have sufficiently heightened his suspicions for him to believe that he could shift his inquiry from the traffic stop to investigating other potential criminal activity.

That's the probable cause. Read this once more too...


<div class="quote">reasonable suspicion does not require either probable cause or evidence of a direct connection linking the suspect to the suspected crime.

That from just one of the many case law examples supporting this position.

If it is unconstitutional to ask anyone for their immigration papers, why would you even have any such laws? It wouldn't make any sense at all. You have to scrap them. Then you can start picking off all the other laws with potential to racially profile or intrude on freedoms.
 Ailliss
Joined: 3/16/2010
Msg: 156
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/10/2010 3:03:20 PM

Beginning after the 2004 election, under Brewer's command, no fewer than 100,000 voters, overwhelmingly Hispanic, were blocked from registering to vote. In 2005, the first year of the Great Brown-Out, one in three Phoenix residents found their registration applications rejected."


Duhh; well, this is a tough one but let me guess….
Because these frauds were not U.S. citizens!!!!
Not just anyone can come into our country and vote in our elections!
Anyone advocating illegals and others not meeting the necessary qualifications in order to cast a vote is a traitor.

What makes our country great is that we are a nation of laws.

"Prop 200," which required proof of citizenship to register.”
I had to provide proof, no problem here. It is only a problem for those illegally attempting to vote. Which is a felony.
Not permitting these intended lawbreakers access to our polls is a good, lawful thing.

Greg Palast is a disgusting instigator; helping felons and other anti-law abiding revolutionaries like members of La Raza and gangs.


I mean, Grandma Palast snuck into the USA via Windsor, Canada. We Palasts are illegal as they come,
. What a phony; pfffftttt.
He, Palast, was born in Los Angeles. He is a U.S. citizen.
However, he is yet another good reason to do away with “Border babies” policy.


The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?

Arizona has no choice but to attempt to uphold the laws on immigration and border control that the Federal government refuses to uphold and enforce.

With the most porous border Arizona is now inundated with criminal trespassers. Most of who are a burden, economically and socially, to the greater population of Arizona. I would love it if one day some ingenious lawyer could come up with a way to instigate a law suit against the Federal government for their failure to uphold our laws and protect U.S. citizens from harm and foreign invaders.

The Federal government has chosen to forget that the above is their main duty to its citizens.

Thanks for the videos msg 72. The Mexican mestizos are too ignorant to realize the lands they call theirs were so for only about 40 years till they sold them to the U.S. or lost them in battles. For centuries the lands they speak of belonged to the Spaniards; they the built missions and made contributuons to these lands; NOT THE MEXICANS.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 157
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/10/2010 6:24:37 PM

Ha! It's the same thing. The tired, the poor, the huddled masses, the wretched refuse haven't got a chance of being "legal" - they'll be dead before they're legal - so you might as well say bugger off and be done with it.


We are already are accepting 1 million immigrants per year. Then you add all the illegal immigrants on top of that. Sorry, but we can't accept all the third world countries of the world. But if we did, maybe we can lead them all to your house...lol.

If we don't slow down, even the legal immigration as it is now, it will turn out to be something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 158
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/10/2010 6:32:23 PM
"Now if we actually had an effective border fence, we could check their visas and passports at that point and then we wouldn't have this issue."

At a time when we can't even keep up to our highway infrastructure maintained, our military is worn out, and we can't even afford to properly care for Veterans, where are we going to get the financial and human resources to build a giant leaky symbol that will do nothing to address the cause? In addition to the previously mentioned ways to breach such a colander of futility, tunneling is not so hard to do either.

We are quick to want to punish the symptom of the disease the immigrants, and whack off healthy limbs like the constitution, and lagging on how to fully address the cause of our disease. Those who demand cheap, illegal behavior are driving this. Obama is cracking down on these folks harder than Bush ever did. This administration is also keeping those arrested in such raids, in the country to testify against the real perpetrators, those who demanded their presence. Previously there was a revolving door and prosecutions were more difficult without the witnesses.

The Houston Chronicle has practically said Obama is doing a better job at it than Bush did and that Obamas efforts against the employers are "unprecedented"
http://blogs.chron.com/immigration/archives/2009/11/post_320.html
snip..
"Ten months into President Barack Obama's administration, I wonder if we can make the following declaration: The new president has been much tougher on illegal immigration than most people would have predicted. Some might even say he's been more focused on the issue than the Bush White House.

Another case in point: Today we reported that U.S. immigration officials put an unprecedented 1,000 businesses on notice Thursday that their paperwork would be inspected to make sure they don't employ illegal immigrants.

This marks the largest wave of immigration-related business audits in history. And the feds aren't going after small operations either. "
end snip..

Republicans are blocking attempts at any meaningful reform for now. They know it's better to have this on the whine list than to have it taken off in mobilizing their base. They also know that if the discussion gets too heated and they show their arses, that they will only further drive away the Latino American vote, the 23% that they do have.

"--crickets --"
More like ringing in the ears from having Fox News, and Rush turned up so high.

"Lets face it, Dems are for OPEN borders and ILLEGAL immigration because it suits them. Their solution is to make illegal immigrants LEGAL! So all of this braying about the AZ law is disingenuous because they will NEVER support any law or action to reduce illegal immigration with the exception of AMNESTY."
"I have not heard ONE solution from the DEMS on this issue with the exception of the non-solution of Amnesty. I'm still waiting....."

Look elsewhere for your news. Look at the Dems proposed blueprint for a starting point and then get back to us when you have a fuller understanding and perhaps some workable ideas.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 159
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/10/2010 6:51:18 PM
Chabot asked first, then the answers he was given or in this case, wasn't given, constituted probably cause. If it was illegal to ask, he would have had his butt tossed out of court.

Yes, but I never said it was illegal to ask... You've implied this several times (that I was saying they couldn't ask)... This is a strawman because it isn't an argument I've ever made... I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up but I suspect that it is because your argument will fall apart if you acknowledge that...

Once again... All they need to ASK is "reasonable suspicion"... But "reasonable suspicion" is insufficient to ARREST...

Do you think all fourteen guys just threw their hands in the air and said "We're here illegally!" all on their own? Read the judgment.

I did read it... And it clearly indicates that AT LEAST TWO (not all fourteen, but AT LEAST TWO) admitted to being illegal BEFORE being arrested... That is the "probable cause"...

sometime before Officer Chabot returned to his vehicle to run Tamup's license, many or most of the Plaintiffs had essentially admitted being in the country illegally.


Plaintiffs Tamup and Estrada both testified in their depositions that they had admitted to Officer Chabot that they and the rest of the passengers were not in the country legally.

There it is... AFTER asking (which "reasonable suspicion" allows) but BEFORE the arrest (which requires "probable cause")

If it is unconstitutional to ask anyone for their immigration papers, why would you even have any such laws?

Where has anyone said it was unconstitutional to ASK on "reasonable suspicion"...? Can you quote it specifically... Simply implying an argument not made and then rebutting does not establish anything...

Now ARRESTING a natural born citizen as "unlawfully present" for not having "his papers" is a different matter... THAT is what the Arizona law allows... And that, despite all the efforts to deflect from the issue by arguing against points not made, is what you haven't established as acceptable...
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 160
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The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/10/2010 8:52:14 PM

Where has anyone said it was unconstitutional to ASK on "reasonable suspicion"...? Can you quote it specifically... Simply implying an argument not made and then rebutting does not establish anything...


What's the point of asking any questions if no proof is required? If all you have to say is "I'm American. I was born here.", then there's no reason to ask. It's the demand for proof that people feel is unreasonable and I don't agree. Essentially you're saying cops can ask all they want but expecting proof is unconstitutional. Sorry for the huge difference there.

The whole problem is what constitutes probable cause. If you think anything short of an admission of guilt is unconstitutional I think you're wrong. Cops are trained to spot liars all the time.


Now ARRESTING a natural born citizen as "unlawfully present" for not having "his papers" is a different matter... THAT is what the Arizona law allows... And that, despite all the efforts to deflect from the issue by arguing against points not made, is what you haven't established as acceptable...


I:nnocent people are arrested all the time. Doesn't mean they're convicted and if there has been a miscarriage of justice, they can sue the pants off people. Like I've said before, mistakes will be made. Innocent people spend years in jail all the time but that doesn't mean we should scrap the law. I get that not having to prove citizenship is a right and people are edgy about this change. Unfortunately there is no other way to enforce the law. As well I believe it is possible for cops to figure out if someone is actually a legal citizen without having to see papers. Lines of questioning can spot the truth or the lies. Situations can show obviously illegal status. I would suggest that after more case law is presented, not having papers may not even be the key issue. Targeting illegal employers is something this law does that seems like a great move.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 161
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/10/2010 9:27:47 PM

So it's an enforcement issue? Crooked cops? So we should abandon all of the otherwise helpful laws? How do you fix that?

It's not a question of "fix," as that is probably not possible. It is a question of mitigation. Racial profiling is already happening; this law will only encourage it more.

Unfortunately there is no other way to enforce the law.

Really?

Targeting illegal employers is something this law does that seems like a great move.

I guess I'll call this "self-refutation."
 HeyJenny
Joined: 11/13/2008
Msg: 162
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/10/2010 9:29:31 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGqPo5ofk0s

1) This is a new video of an L.A. teacher who is teaching students in California, just great !
I read that Glen Beck covered this on FOX news.

2) BOYCOTT THOSE WHO ARE BOYCOTTING ARIZONA!what flags was live oak school in california flying on their flag pole on the 5th of may when the those boys were sent home....... You can find this on Facebook

3) http://www.kfiam640.com/main.html Talk Show called The John and Ken show gives info. about Riverside County high school band teacher in California that canceled the band's trip to Arizona and lied saying it was because of the budget.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 163
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/10/2010 9:55:15 PM

I:nnocent people are arrested all the time.

That still doesn't justify a law which sets conditions which specifically allow that to happen...

What's the point of asking any questions if no proof is required? If all you have to say is "I'm American. I was born here."

Exactly... Of course, I said exactly that some time back...

I get that not having to prove citizenship is a right and people are edgy about this change.

This whole thing reminds me of a line (well, a couple of them) from a movie I was watching recently... It was the part in "Hunt for Red October" where the captain and first officer were talking about what they would do after defecting... The first officer was talking about living in Montana, owning a pick-up, etc... It went something like this...

"FO: and perhaps a recreational vehicle, travel from state to state. Do they let you do that?

CPT: Yes

FO: No papers?

CPT: No papers."

And, of course, they were referring to papers to prove your legal status, your legal privilege to be there... anywhere, really...

Ya know, I can easily recall a time when sappy stuff like that was the propular culture expression of the things which separated "us" from "them"... The kind of thing that made "us" the "good guys" and "them" the "bad guys", the "evil empire", a threat to our freedom... And now that there is no "them", we, many of the very people who likely would have revelled in that difference, want to become more like "them"...

Of all the 'rights' there are, freedom of movement, without having to prove your legal privilege to do so... Without it being treated as a privilege... Is the one from which all others eventually flow... Freedom of speech is useless if you either can't bring your audience to you or you to your audience freely without the prospect of having to prove a legal privilege to do so... Freedom of religion isn't much of a freedom if you can't go from your home to your church without the prospect of having to prove your legal privilege to do so... Your right to be secure against unreasonable seizure isn't worth much as a right if you can be siezed until you have to proven you have the legal privilege of that right... And the list goes on...

And as a natural born citizen it is not your obligation to prove you are "lawfully present" or be detained until you do... That very act fundamentally transforms your right from a right to a legal privilege...
 rustytraveler
Joined: 4/30/2007
Msg: 164
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History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/10/2010 11:46:59 PM

Oh, wow! You really believe this? Really? You think a bunch of "immigrants" in 1692, for example, had "papers"? Really? You believe this? Wow.


The thing is dawn, they have become so far removed from their immigrant roots... that it's easy to forget that we were ALL immigrants. Which I find kind of odd... I suppose they never think of just how they got here .

Actually the whole world is in a state of migration and always has been, we're just seeing more at the moment because of the east block countries opening up, the wars in Africa and the middle east... plus the Mexican connection has been on going for a very long time; California, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas were a Spanish/Mexican colony since the 1500s until the treaty of Guadaloupe Hidalgo in 1848. So there have been ex Mexicans in America for around 500 years... bit more than most of the (white) descendents of Europeans.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 165
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/10/2010 11:58:43 PM

Even if your family has been on this continent for five or six or seven or whatever generations, do you honestly believe people in the 1600s, 1700s, 1800s, and even in many cases the 1900s, had "immigration papers"? Really? You think this? They just came here. Period.


I believe the families coming to Ellis Island as far back as 1892, had some kind of papers. Into the early 1900's such papers were common place.
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 166
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History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/11/2010 3:42:03 AM


what bothers me, isn't the fact that Arizona enacted this law, but that other states that do NOT have major illegal immigration issues are also seeking to enact the law.

Why does enforcing a law or enacting a new law that will only truly affect those who broke the law to begin with bother you ?

^^^The law is imo an excessive response and one that appeases the frustration of those who live in affected regions, who see the federal response being historically ineffective.

The degree to which other non-border states seem interested in enacting this same legislation, while not having this as a central concern in their own state suggests that the law addresses another concern-- one that can also be achieved while appearing to do due diligence on the immigration issue. As I said before, I'd like to know what that is. Did I miss this somewhere?

I was in a court setting a few times in a county that operated a Sheriffs Dept. 287 (g)/ICE unit on the freeway. Talking with the people awaiting their time with the judge, most stops were for pretextual reasons...turn signal not used on freeway..(not a citeable offense), going a mile or two above the speed limit, burnt out tail light, etc.. In this 90% white county, the courtroom was 90% filled with blacks and hispanics. The one's I talked with all said their biggest crime was driving while black or hispanic, most noting that the officer pulled along side to look at them, then hit the blue lights. Nearby Albertville AL, routinely sets up roadblocks around hispanic neighborhoods, terrorizing the legal and illegal alike. I know kids from Reservations who experienced the same, essentially being detained from going outside the Res. The callousness of the majority in targeting a minority population with such hostility should serve as a warning of what we may ultimately become one day.


Papers, papers, papers. I'll repeat what my parents taught me: psycho regimes are psycho about freaking papers.

^^^Bears repeating.
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 167
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History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/11/2010 4:00:14 AM
oops...double post. perhaps too early for posting ;)
 dwayne88
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 168
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History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/11/2010 5:52:32 AM
The real reason IMO is that the government wants to do this to everyone.

They want us all to have out papers on us at all times, or we might be deemed a terrorist.

This isn't even about illegals.

This is about taking away the rights of the people of this country.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 169
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/11/2010 5:53:31 AM

It is still commonplace to "come to" another country with papers. That isn't the issue. The issue is AZ's functional requirement to carry them with you.


We already established early on legal immigrants have to carry papers with them under federal law. What we seem to be trying to establish is Americans citizens having to carry papers.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 170
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/11/2010 6:35:50 AM

where are we going to get the financial and human resources to build a giant leaky symbol that will do nothing to address the cause? In addition to the previously mentioned ways to breach such a colander of futility, tunneling is not so hard to do either.


After California built up their fences around the border, greatly reduced the amount of illegals in that state. Arizona, fencing is way inadequate. So illegals will follow the path of least resistance, thats through Arizona.



Those who demand cheap, illegal behavior are driving this.


Its never been about cheap labor. Its always been about Mexico not providing for its own people. Employers taking advantage of it, was only a side effect of illegal immigration, not the motivation behind it. We have been outsourcing for years on cheap labor.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 171
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History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/11/2010 7:10:19 AM
The Dems are proposing a national biometric ID card for anyone working in the US. Not sure if they are doing this as a cynical ploy or a tool to at least begin moving forward on reform. Thus far, most of the most anti-immigrant people are also opposed to a National ID card, until it comes to Hispanic looking people.

This debate seems closer to the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, or the Old Immigration generation of northern and western Europeans becoming conservative and opposed to the New Immigration wave starting in the late 1880s when most immigrants were coming from southern and eastern Europe. The US has always been a melting pot of people opposed to other ethnic backgrounds getting their share of the pie. The white European presence on the Western continents is only a few hundred years old, compared to the 12,000- 15,000 years of the ancestors of those now so strongly opposed. The support of singling out people of Hispanic/Latino descent for papers is a throw back to the "issue of whiteness" that permeated the US between 1790 and 1952, where requirements for naturalization were restricted to "white people". The debate then was the difference between "common knowledge" and "scientific evidence" in determining "whiteness". "Common knowledge", most widely accepted at the time, seems to be the "reasonable suspicion" of today.

As a third generation natural born US citizen, I grew up in Midwestern towns often dominated by one ethnic group or another. I was of the first generation who did not speak any of the mother tongues of the old countries. The pollack jokes, Ole and Lena jokes, Swede jokes, etc, were the dying throes of assimilation as Americans. I still remember the widespread angst over the prospect of a Catholic President. I had no idea how powerful the dormant racism was in the region until the Mariel Boat People were introduced into those lilly white towns, and then the immigrant waves to work in the meat packing houses and farms. After living in the South, I was truly amazed that I thought I lived in a more progressive land up there. To them it was about race. Just as it is in Arizona.
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 172
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History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/11/2010 7:46:09 AM

The support of singling out people of Hispanic/Latino descent for papers is a throw back to the "issue of whiteness" that permeated the US between 1790 and 1952, where requirements for naturalization were restricted to "white people". The debate then was the difference between "common knowledge" and "scientific evidence" in determining "whiteness". "Common knowledge", most widely accepted at the time, seems to be the "reasonable suspicion" of today.
.....After living in the South, I was truly amazed that I thought I lived in a more progressive land up there. To them it was about race. Just as it is in Arizona.

^^^Thanks for that great explanation and the context provided in your entire post.

Imo, it places any further justification for this myopic over-reaching 'law' as it stands, squarely in the column of 'racist' where it belongs.

America the Beautiful...the world and your country is increasingly becoming brown....and that's a beautiful thing...when are some of you going to get that? When your kids start marrying farther afield and bring home grand children that look like 'them' despite a storied family pedigree...will you get it then?

edited. and edited again!
 HeyJenny
Joined: 11/13/2008
Msg: 173
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/11/2010 7:26:20 PM
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2010/0503/Arizona-immigration-law-revised-backtracking-or-fine-tuning

The law was revised people, half of you don't even know what you're arguing about. It really isn't what alot of you are making it out to be. The officers are only doing their jobs.

I do want to make a point,those who are U.S. citizens should be precise and say exactly that. Almost everyone tends to say that they are American, while that is true , there are North Americans and South Americans. I know saying "U.S. citizen "doesn't roll off the tongue as easy but more important to clarify what you are in my opinion.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 174
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History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/12/2010 6:04:58 AM

America the Beautiful...the world and your country is increasingly becoming brown....and that's a beautiful thing...when are some of you going to get that? When your kids start marrying farther afield and bring home grand children that look like 'them' despite a storied family pedigree...will you get it then?
The father of my children is an immigrant ... but the immigrant (while he comes from Europe) is the same background as I am: German. I'm 5th & 3rd generation German and part Native American because my ancestor who came over during the Civil War as an indentured slave married a lovely lady from the area.

While three of my four children were born abroad I seriously doubt anyone would ever stop my children and ask them for papers because they don't fit the racial profile the Arizona law is targeting.

The new law is nothing more than targeted racial profiling. If you're out having a leisure drink with someone who falls into that category and a fight breaks out in the bar, if you don't get away before the police get there I suppose they could ask you for your papers? For sure your companion?
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 175
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History
The real reasons behind Arizona's Immigration Law?
Posted: 5/12/2010 6:44:51 AM
Brewer just signed the bill into law to prohibit hispanic/latino ethnic studies in schools. Fine to study Greco/Roman philosopy, Norse mythology, Shakespeare and other fine white fare. American Indian and Black history studies are still allowed, but study the influence of Mayan culture and philosopy, latino authors..nope. No racism there on the heels of the profiling bill. According to Horne, they are not part of western culture and subversive.
http://www.truthout.org/greco-romans-welcome-arizona-schools59299

snip..
In Lak Ech - Tu eres mi otro yo - You are my other self. I am you, and you are me. If I hurt you, I hurt myself. If I hate you, I hate myself. If I love and respect you, I love and respect myself.

This is how Maria Federico Brummer's class begins at Tucson High School in Arizona. Students here, part of Tucson Unified School District's highly successful Mexican-American Studies (MAS) K-12 program (the largest in the nation), are taught this and other indigenous concepts, such as Panche Be (To seek the Root of the Truth), including other ways of measuring time (Aztec & Maya calendars).

I am there, to speak to them about the relationship among In Lak Ech, Panche Be and Hunab Ku - a beautiful Maya philosophy and human rights ethos based on maize. It affirms - contrary to what is taught in schools - that the ancient peoples of this continent were not savages, and clearly understood how the universe functioned and understood what it meant to be a human being.

Not coincidentally, academically, MAS students - many of who were doing poorly prior to entering this program - consistently outperform their peers, and it is virtually a college-bound factory.

In a parallel universe across the 10 Highway at the state capitol in Phoenix - 518 years after Columbus initiated the theft of a continent - Arizona's state Superintendent of Schools, Tom Horne has just declared, via the passage of HB 2281, that indigenous people and indigenous knowledge are still outside of Western Civilization.

In his relentless campaign against ethnic studies, Horne has just engineered the passage of a new draconian state law that seeks to ban the teaching of ethnic studies by withdrawing its funding. This is the same state that recently passed the racial profiling SB 1070 law; the primary targets would be Mexicans and Central Americans with indigenous features, suspected of being "illegal aliens."
snip..
This year's bill, HB 2281, causes the geographic dislocation of the continent.
Acting as royal cosmographer, Horne has ruled that maize (Mesoamerican) knowledge - indigenous to this continent - is subversive and not part of Western civilization or does not belong in the West or in Arizona schools. The bill falsely claims that American-Indian courses are exempt from this bill (in order to comply with federal law), though there are no federal laws that compel the teaching of American-Indian Studies. The bill also exempts African-American Studies courses - as long as they are open to everyone. This, too, is a canard because all ethnic studies courses are open to all. This attempt to exempt American-Indian and African-American courses is a clear signal that it is Mexican-American Studies that is the clear target.

By targeting MAS - Horne also sets himself up as the chief arbiter of who and what is indigenous and what is indigenous knowledge. Maize knowledge - which is the foundation of Mexican-American Studies - is also the foundation of much of indigenous knowledge throughout North, Central and South America. Apparently, Horne has decided that maize knowledge is not part of American-Indian Studies.

Through the bill, he also mischaracterizes the program by claiming that its teachers preach hate, segregation, anti-Americanism and the violent overthrow of the government. The bill sets up an inquisitorial mechanism that will monitor books and curriculum. Horne has been especially critical of Rudy Acuña's Occupied America and Paolo Freire's Pedagogy of the Oppressed. (Separately, the Arizona Department of Education has banned teachers with heavy accents from teaching English classes).

end snip..more at link.
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