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 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 495
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...Page 15 of 33    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33)
That means that there are workers in the USA, who have far less freedom of movement, than businesses. Ergo, no free market...Ergo, no free market.

Not only is that not news, that was my point in the thread to which you asked the question I actually answerd:

Pardon me, but isn't that impossible?

Well no, it's not impossible. A free market is possible. It might be highly unlikely because eliminating restrictions on crossing national borders is not going to be popular, but highly unlikely is not the same as impossible.

But equally, businesses cannot move in a second.

So what? The concept of a free market doesn't depend on that. It only depends on businesses doing what is in their best interests and workers doing what is in their best interests with everyone free of government restrictions. Their ability to move is certainly a factor in what a business decides is in their best interests, but so are lots of other things. The only relevant conceot her is the freedom to make that decision, not what factors go into it.

They need to plan their moves, and the introduction of their products into new markets, well in advance.

So? That's a business decision that's part of being a business.

If you open the flood-gates to economic migrants, they can move far quicker than businesses can. So again, not equal freedom of movement between the labour pool and business products. Ergo, no free market.

In case you haven't heard, businesses already have the ability to cross international borders and they are attempting to eliminate whatever restrictions they still face by arguing that those restrictions violate the idea of a free market. I think it's rather obvious that it's the labor that has been left out of the equation. If you call tech support and find a tech support center in India staffed with people from all over the world instead of people from India, let me know. Then I'll know that workers were allowed to go to where companies located their operations.
 az109
Joined: 7/3/2010
Msg: 496
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/13/2010 9:10:18 AM
What are your views and thougts on this disaster
It sucks.

how will it effect the economy
Some people will get rich off it, some will get poor, and some will stay the same.

how will it effect the enviroment
the environment will have more oil in places it didn't before

What will become of BP , were is Tony Haywood ?
BP will post record profits, and Tony Haywood is in the doghouse.

your views on offshore oil drilling
It's noisy for the fish who swim by.

how long will it take before the spill can be capped
I have no idea. But it says a lot against the engineering community that not one of them has yet solved the problem, or, if a solution has been created that they haven't applied it. All that costly education, all those degrees, and here is a basic problem of pressurized flow containment and yet nobody in their ranks is up to the challenge. The big lesson from this as far as I am concerned is that the curricula for engineering programs needs to be improved by an order of magnitude. I bet a plumber could handle the leak if BP coughed up for the rush service and parts. Hey engineers: WTF??? Give your degrees back. Go sit in the corner.

It was predictable and predicted and there was regulation but that got corrupted, so all in all, business as usual. Money is still being made, so...what's the problem? Keep in mind that as long as money is being made things are as they should be.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 497
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/13/2010 11:46:03 AM
I have no idea. But it says a lot against the engineering community that not one of them has yet solved the problem, or, if a solution has been created that they haven't applied it.

Unless you've done some engineering, I doubt you would appreciate the difficulty involved. I'd be willing to bet that ideas are not in short supply. What is in short supply are ideas that stand a good chance of success, not end up doing more damage that's even more difficult to fix, and can actually be implemented as well as be implemented in a reasonable amount of time. It doesn't do any good to have a great idea that's nothing more than an egineers wet dream which takes a year to put in place only to discover that it doesn't work and damaged the well, making the problem worse.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 499
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History
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/13/2010 1:05:05 PM
Paul's fishing bud had the right trick. Rent out the boat and get the h3ll away from that toxic crime scene. Thousands of cleanup workers and coastal residents have already fallen ill. The final health toll to residents and cleanup workers may well climb into the hundreds of thousands or more before this particular situation is mitigated to the full extent possible. It's only a matter of time before the class action suits climb into multi-billions. BP has started selling off assets and could well go under, leaving a lot of injured people without any compensation. Past is prologue...Alaska 18 years later.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/895.html
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 500
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/13/2010 1:08:03 PM


However, when I asked him how he could afford to take a vacation, his answer was that BP was paying all those who wanted the work, to go out and do mop up work. If you had a boat, you could work. He said that they pay for his expenses, and any damage to his boat due to floating oil, and pay him $1750.00 per day. He hired a guy to go out and do the work, and he came to San Diego to visit family.


How can this be? BP is evil, and won't pay out claims against them, and polluted the Gulf because they like the smell of dead oily seagulls. As several people have predicted BP is going to declare bankruptcy to avoid paying for the damage. Or something.
 imalwayssmiling
Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 501
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History
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/13/2010 2:09:11 PM
How can the boat owners trust to be paid for their work,Is BP currently paying them weekly or giving IOU's.

When an industry expert was asked if a company like BP could survive this,to be around to pay for this damage,it was disclosed that BP could do many things like separate its business into separate business groups,so one entity like the spill would lose money,yet another BP entity would not be part of that sector and would look amazing not being attached to the entity thats taking these losses of the spill and clean up.He further explained that if BP split its company into separate entities,if the going got to bad to survive tha,t the worse hit company, could then go bankrupt yet not be part of the rest of the companies.

Does anyone have any thoughts on that,I think if its legal to do that,that would be terrible,a restructuring like that.

I would hope that a company would ultimately be responsible because at the time of the disaster it had not been made into separate smaller companies.

I believe this will go the way of the Exxon disaster,where its made clear everything will be paid for,lots of PR, a winning court case to the peoples affected then 21 years of appeals like Valdez,until a oil friendly court two decades later reduces the first winnings by 90% and all affected finally receive a paltry amount of the original,yet after two decades most move,other die,other wiped out two decades earlier,and as with valdez,their fishing industry never rebounded and all there canneries are still shut,21 years later.In my eyes I see the same oil company ethics as it was when I was younger in the 70s and 80s.

Listening to the BP PR now, they make it sound like claims are being paid as fast as they come in,yet when citizens are interviewed they all talk of run around and receiving payoffs or payments equal to a normal weekends worth of work,not equal to nearly 90 days worth of lose nor the next 3 to 7,8,9,10 years worth of no fishing.Many have never received a dime and do you think the thousands of deckhands will ever see a penny,so far they talk like only boat owners are the losers.I know the company in Ohio that supplies these boats and fisherman that will lose their business ,from no business, will never see a dime from this from BP.
 imalwayssmiling
Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 503
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History
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/13/2010 4:02:34 PM
Nice spin ,how you weave decades of oil companies running the show the way they want it run, and the feds that are supposed to check them letting them sign their own paper work.Now we get Obama,a total stranger to the inner workings of oil companies,and the moment Barrack see there is corruption in this system,he puts the brakes on them,shuts it down till we even know how to stop the leak,and is now trying to get decades of the buddy buddy system stopped between corrupt feds and big oil,yet some how you have a crazy way to spin this around as if any of this has anything to do with Obama,what you don't like the new sheriff,Why! because he is actually doing something.Bush would have nevr forced BP to cough up 20 billion for starters.

oil drilling produces jobs right,well not good enough reason,now we can all bleed and bleed as we suffer for the pasts tunnel vision concepts on allowing mega oil corporations making money at any cost to our country and its citizens.

I don't remember Obamas presidential campaign talking about making everything right, make all of our mortgage and car payments, give us free gas, and fix all that ails us if some almost untouchable non inspected existing industry ,an oil industry with a past president in the oil business,his father ,ex prez knee deep in drilling with all their Saudi friends, and when that industry screws up because they are in bed with the leaders ,and no one cared,but now its out of hand some blame this also on Obama,every tea party's scapegoat.

There is a new sheriff in town,I hope he stops oil until they have equipment built,and tested and on every drilling site before another well is turned on again,time to pay the piper,and what we need are gags for the mouths of those that let them continue unchecked,I'm tired of hearing noise coming from the mouths of all the drill baby drill people.I don't know about you but I was had it up to here with oil before this even happened,its the only reason we even went to Iraq to protect our oil interests,its the only reason we war with most countries,we get our oil and folks like Bush and other oil companies make millions and billions and our sons and daughters pay with there lives in war,war over oil,and now millions in the south and all over the Caribbean and the US will pay too.Sure Paul blame it on Obama,what ever allows you to sleep at night.

I'd pass a rule,No president allowed to be in office if his families income is oil,because it is he that is the one that takes us to war.You sure wouldn't see a president going to war over beef interests if his family owned burger joints.
 imalwayssmiling
Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 504
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History
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/13/2010 4:30:59 PM
P.s. I wouldn't let another drop of oil flow until we have all 27,000 abandoned (and some leaking ) oil wells inspected.There is a reason we have cheap oil here,because we take short cuts at our peoples expense.Oil in Eroupe has always been 3 times more than us.If thats how much we need to pay to not have these earth changing accidents then I'm completely fine,wouldn't it be nice for once to have an energy where we don't need to start a war over it,could you imagine a war over solar power or electric energy.See we actually pay 20 times the price Europe pays,we pay in other ways instead of upfront,we like to pay later,which is great for some,Halliburton , Cheneys company,made a fortune off the last war for oil in Iraq,heck Halliburton had their hand in this gulf well capping gone wrong,yet most tea party types are not speaking their name,just BP and Obama.Halliburton must have cloaking abilities or they are like magic,no one see them,no one cares.Oil loves it when we pay later,that way the driller allows its customers to pay rather than themselves.Hope you don't love seafood,but hey,enjoy your drive in your car.

And " lets let Americans do there thang"................you mean the current way without any rules,unabated capitalism............ thats how we got here,duh.Funny it ruined us allowing Wall street to do that,their "thang" and now we are buried by allowing oil to do there "thang"

Do you enjoy being a lobbyist and whom do you work for !
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 506
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History
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/14/2010 2:54:23 AM
RE Msg: 505 by abelian:
Well no, it's not impossible. A free market is possible. It might be highly unlikely because eliminating restrictions on crossing national borders is not going to be popular, but highly unlikely is not the same as impossible.
Pardon me. I don't see how it's possible. But I was wrong to say that it is impossible, until I've proved it mathematically. Until then, I can only say that I've seen all sorts of economic markets, and so far, I have never come across any market, or even any concept of a market, that would offer labour pools the same freedom of movement as business products, because they are 2 different types of entities, that operate in 2 different ways, that give rise to 2 entirely separate types of freedom of movement.

So what? The concept of a free market doesn't depend on that. It only depends on businesses doing what is in their best interests and workers doing what is in their best interests with everyone free of government restrictions. Their ability to move is certainly a factor in what a business decides is in their best interests, but so are lots of other things. The only relevant conceot her is the freedom to make that decision, not what factors go into it.
We already have a market fully free of all government restrictions. It's called "the black market". Granted, nice middle-class people never see it. But it's rife all over the poorer areas of the UK, and I would not be suprised if the same is true of other Western countries.

For some reason, people seem to not like the idea of a black market, no matter how free it is of government restrictions. It might have to do with the fact that black markets mostly seem to start out with people treating each other nicely, but seem to develop all the same problems as the legal market, but with the addition of transactions being backed up by the use of extreme violence as a method of enforcing contracts, particularly when they are unfair contracts.

In case you haven't heard, businesses already have the ability to cross international borders and they are attempting to eliminate whatever restrictions they still face by arguing that those restrictions violate the idea of a free market. I think it's rather obvious that it's the labor that has been left out of the equation.
Of course labour was not left out of the equation. In the UK, companies were fighting for years, to have an "open-door" policy when it came to immigrants, and they are still fighting to let cheap foreign workers keep flooding in. I personally have no clear views on what should be done about immigation policies at present. But it's damn obvious that businesses are very clear about how they want the labour pools to work.

If you call tech support and find a tech support center in India staffed with people from all over the world instead of people from India, let me know. Then I'll know that workers were allowed to go to where companies located their operations.
Funny you should mention this, because there was a comedy set in an Indian call centre, shown not too long ago, with British people working there as well as Indian people. If you emigrated to India, and applied to work in a call centre, I doubt that you'd get refused to work on the basis of your colour. I expect that with the amount of extreme poverty over in India, a job like that over there is probably highly prized. So you'd be competing with probably 1000 other candidates.

However, somehow, I doubt that you'd want to move to India and work in a call centre. I think that you and most Westerners think they're much better off where they are.

I'm not totally against the principles of a free market. I just think that it's like any theory. It has a range in which we have empirically verified that it seems to work. Within that range, the theory is perfectly valid. But it still has a range, and cannot be assumed to work without any level of limitations, not until we've proved it works ad infinitum by proper scientific experimentation, just like anything else.
 imalwayssmiling
Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 507
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History
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/14/2010 8:27:28 AM

Yep. If the American entrepreneur were allowed to innovate, and create without being taxed into the past centuries, we would have solved this problem by now.
Well,I have been in the workforce since 1974,and what I have seen is the vast majority of companies sell out and outsource or relocate there business to foreign countries,and as time goes by American business has chose to have foreignors take our work so owners could make more profits,not a single concern of the American worker.I have watched everything from manufacturing to ag products sell out,its the owners choice of course,but they always tend to choose profit over employing Americans with jobs.One of the times I was sickened by handcuffs placed on the wrists of innovations was when Bush disallowed scientists to work on important work like stem cells and such and our greatest scientists moved there work to foreign countries,yet with Obama he is the opposite,lifting the bans of the Bush period.Prodding us to change and be innovative.

I don't see anyone being taxed into past centuries,take the tin foil off your eyes,look my friend my business slid to the nothings in the last 2 years of Republican reign and it has done nothing but continue to increse monthly since Obama took office and since all my clients are in the luxury end of the scale,I see and here whats up in there lives.I remember when their real estate dealings and investments went bust and I now see them all back into their lavish vacations and once again investing.Sure it all depends on your town or city as to how much change you see.I know from life experience we have atleast 2 years before we feel widespread improvement in all our lives.I had to laugh at those shocked the change had not happened the first month or two of Obama.

They can say what they want,but my clients in the $100,000 to $600,000 a year category are all active again something I watched on hold for 2 years,proofs in the actions not what a few gripe about.Poor babies,the rich being forced to pay a more fair tax,more equal to what the rest of us pay.How sad to think people making $20,000 to $50,000 a month have to pay a little more,must be rough,poor babies.Even Warren Buffet said it was absolutely unfair he pays like 17% tax and his employs pay alot more.

I hope with all my heart that some day I am so freakin blessed to have a tax problem as they.How will I ever get by.Alot of needless whining going on by the top 2%,the same ones that out sourced there businesses for that last 30 years.Had the owners stayed patriotic and had American pride, and favored American made over there personal profit we would never have got here.I'm only 52 and I clearly remember when we made everything in this country and everyone had jobs,I remember when construction and manufacturing paid 40% more than they pay now and that was 20 years ago,$16 dollar an hour jobs that are all min wage now,and why because the American owner would rather pay a illegal under the table rather than pay a wage of yester year .Sure now that we are down to crumbs(available Jobs not out sourced yet) we blame this on the immigrants.Blame is on the owners and corporations that sold out for the last 30 years removed millions and millions of jobs in this country.

Left to there own choices the American majority of owners choose the illegal or the downtrodden to do a once good paying job for min wage now,this is why we need rules,and this is why we need to crack down on millions of people and bosses hiring underpaid illegals,everyone from those hiring landscapers,maids,construction workers,restaurant workers,ect.Its the owners that did the hiring and made the change.God bless the illegal that only took advantage of an amazing opportunity we made available to them,that was our fault we have floods of them sneaking in,if they had to compete as a legal citizen they wouldn't even have a job would they.The job is the reason they are here.

I know who owns the blame,and it has nothing to do with anything current,and it was even a done deal before even Bush was in Office.Its been decades in the works.
 That Handy Man
Joined: 11/23/2008
Msg: 509
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/14/2010 9:25:21 AM
I for one, see things deteriorating rapidly. Any speak of "coming out of it" or a "turn a round" is just hype and BS! Just look at the debt, the interest, and one sees it's simply not sustainable!

On the other hand. I remember when NYC was broke and bankrupt. I thought it was all over then, too! But times were much different then. It seems this cancerous GREED in the world of big business, government and finance, was not nearly as advanced back then!
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 510
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/14/2010 10:20:11 AM

Pardon me. I don't see how it's possible. But I was wrong to say that it is impossible, until I've proved it

Yes, you were wrong and you're also wrong to think you could prove it. You can obviously define a free market (since Adam Smith did precisely that), so it's obviously not impossible to have a free market. It's only highlly improbable that such a market will ever be realized. I'm not sure why you have so much difficulty distinguishing between impossible and highly unlikely. If you're still confused, I will attempt to make the difference clearer.


Until then, I can only say that I've seen all sorts of economic markets, and so far, I have never come across any market, or even any concept of a market, that would offer labour pools the same freedom of movement as business products,

Then try reading Adam Smith who elucidated the concept back in the mid 18th century. If you read what he actually wrote, you'll also discover that what he described is NOT what is called a free market in the present day (despite selectively quoting him out of context.

because they are 2 different types of entities, that operate in 2 different ways, that give rise to 2 entirely separate types of freedom of movement.

Uh, no those things are not. Labour competes for customers (i.e., the businesses that hire them) just like products compete for customers. That's the entire point and it's fundanebtal to the concept of a free market. Placing restrictions on any competition (labor or products) undermines the foundation of all the arguments derived from those assumptions. If labor is restricted, then a corporation can aleays exploit workers by paying non-competitive wages to workers in a system from which they cannot escape nor can others enter.

We already have a market fully free of all government restrictions. It's called "the black market".

Eh? A black market is one which operates illegally. I can't think of a market which is more restrictive than one in which even the existence of the market is illegal. It operates freely in the sense that the risks of being arrested or shut down are reflected in the cost of doing business, but it is certainly not unrestrcited.

For some reason, people seem to not like the idea of a black market, no matter how free it is of government restrictions.

It doesn't bother me. I figure that black markets exist when it's more cost effective to circumvent the law and take the risks associated with operating as a black market. If anything, it serves to point out the stupidity of wasting time, money and effort to enact laws which can't be effectively enforced.


However, somehow, I doubt that you'd want to move to India and work in a call centre.

Maybe. Maybe not. Many people might, since many things are cheaper in India than in the US. The lower wages do not necessarily translate into a lower standard of living.

I'm not totally against the principles of a free market. I just think that it's like any theory. It has a range in which we have empirically verified that it seems to work.

If it worked, companies would not make products in countries where the people who make the products can't afford to buy them because such a situation couldn't exist in a free market.
 imalwayssmiling
Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 511
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History
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/14/2010 10:29:29 AM
First off the not paying a fair share of taxes is one small point.Warren Buffet would be an idiot to write a check and I'd lose respect for him if he did.He shows his complete willingness to pay more if the laws are changed,the man still lives in the modest home he bought when he married his wife decades ago.Nothing will change until large mega corporations are locked to the floor tightly with laws and regulations since they are really the ones that have run this country,our country was formed by the Barrons and Rockafellors and Vanderbilts not a democratic government.Big money guided the extremely crooked government,heck the foundation of rights to bare arms came about to protect your self from the government,had nothing to do with hunting .

The problem, with this would take 100,000 words not 2 paragraphs.I see this BP thread as what we have been debating,mega corporation which you seem to adore,having free reign.This is why we have 27,000 abandoned ,not ever inspected wells,an industry thats most presidents family income purposely run without policing.Everything we have debated about decades of corporate abuse is about BP today it is why they are able to do business as they do,would be the same outcome if you inserted any oil corporation name.I believe in capitalism,and mega Corporations are more like communism,we all suffer over one leaders thirst of profits,even past presidents allowed them to be the leader.I think Halliburton had more pull than Bush in Iraq.

My point of my clients was mainly the people whining are those complaining of their job and they refuse to look at the millions that have had a turn around since Obama,I look at the whole picture ,they look at themselves.I didn't only look at myself when times were tough for years,it was my area of the three hardest hit real estate regions,I knew others were doing better and some worse,I looked at the whole picture.Much of this blame is also the citizens fault ,one with no credit and stupid enough to get into anything other than a fixed mortgage if only the current rate was your limit,so stupid as to have never done the math of what there payment was when a absolutely normal rise in interest happens would be something they never could afford.We had millions of citizens buy homes they could not aFFORD NOR QUALIFY FOR,BUT THANKS TO THERE HAVING TO KEEP UP WITH THE jONES'S AT ANY COST AND A STUPID WILLING BANKING INDUSTRY VOID (oops, caps sorry)of ethics or rules,enforceable rules they made a great team,now you have those millions whining Obama is not helping them with there housing problem,you cannot help millions that never should have qualified in the first place.We had tens of millions that should have stayed in an apartment,tough luck for their stupidity.I live within my budget,I don't buy beyond my reach because I can,I leave that stupidity to the likes of my sisters,who whine after the purchase rather than think about it before the purchase.

This BP problem will stay the same unless Obama steps in because you have the Republican party saying what we need to do now is give the industry less regulations not more.Its half the citizens fault because even when you have a mega corporation wipe out the gulf you still have half the country saying lets go back to the old ways,drill baby drill.Thats why Obama cannot easily solve these problems,half the country seems to lack the intelligence to even comprehend the causes of the problems,and they seem detached from the fact that they have involvement in these problems.

BP loves you people,if it was not for people like me and Obama they would continue unchallenged.Dems are working on the problem and Republicans are doing nothing,everything that is brought to them is a blanket no.How does republicans want to fix this gulf spill,the spill we cannot even stop and have no existing equipment built to fight a spill,well,they want drilling to start again and they want even less regulations and rules.Think they need to be drug tested,its the only thing that makes sense.Whats their solution the a forest fire,maybe we should add more gas.Is that anymore insane than their reasoning now.

So many Americans are so dense,Monsanto,Tyson,Chase,Exxon,Shell,ect. are the ones that run this world,they got control,on the worlds energy,water and food and finances,they even dictate what patented by them seed must be used to grow vegetables.They thrive because they are brilliant at conning half the citizens in this world that they are here to help and its actually others that are the fault.Kudos to them for being impressively brilliant cons,they got you fooled.like giving candy to a baby.Many of us wonder why you all are so naive and blind,its very obvious to us,its well documented,its no mystery,they have a list of mismanagement and damage ten miles long,yet here you are.I'll let you get back to your blaming Obama for this spill and your employment woes ,enjoy.
 That Handy Man
Joined: 11/23/2008
Msg: 512
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/14/2010 10:49:16 AM
^^^I think you are just saying what is quite obvious. Humans ARE, for the most part VERY STUPID! And they will always be on the shitty end of the stick, with the smart and hence powerful keeping them down and fuking them over! lol But, even STUPID people, have Egos, and it's those Egos that become so incensed, at this sense of powerlessness and always coming up loosing!

In a sense, it HAS to be this way! Survival of the fittest and all that! It's only natural!
 az109
Joined: 7/3/2010
Msg: 513
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/14/2010 11:02:37 AM
I've done plenty of engineering. That's why I am pointing at the engineers. Fixing the leak is an engineering problem. If you took BP and the government out of the way of engineers, offered a reward to motivate engineers, and set a deadline, you would have a funded engineering project with a hope of success. Engineers have been trained to operate only within that context. They are useless as employees and subordinates to non-engineering management, and will sheepishly remain uninvolved or participate only reluctantly and minimally when governed badly, which is the usual case.

Along with the abundant noise about blame, responsibility, control, which are non-engineering concerns, in the media, is a smaller over-shouted noise made by engineers and academics about the real and technical problem of a leaking pipe. Just like this thread becomes a sounding board for ideology, the noise made about the spill becomes a rampaging tangent about everything else than how to stop a flow of oil coming from a hole in a pipe.

There are some engineers who know ways to fix this. They have not and will not be allowed to apply their solutions. One or two might someday write a book about how nobody would listen. The book will explain how the problem could have been fixed.

My gripe with engineers is they have a code of professional ethics that they like to dress up in its colors but they fail miserably to live up to it. I won't blame them for not answering a call that was never given, but still there is some culpability in hiding behind the excuse that nobody came begging them to solve the problem, when the importance of a solution should be obvious and compelling regardless of being wooed, if you want your precious code of ethics to actually mean something. I think they should temporarily overthrow the US government, declare a kind of engineering martial law, commandeer the nation's resources, plug the hole, and then with a job well done behind them, quietly slink back into their cubicles, pull their degrees over them like blankets and take a nap.

The constraints of the real problem are not insurmountable. Knowledge and skill are adequate. The project structure is one culprit and the inability of a profession to assert itself is the other. Remember, too, how the well got drilled and how the operation proceeded despite inadequate redundancy of safeguards. Engineers did that, too. They caused the problem, but in such a away as to be excused from responsibility for it. Now they are similarly excused from solving the problem they caused. When you look at the oil in the gulf, think of it as what happens when engineers are improperly trained and employed. As it drags on, think of a bunch of engineers standing around doing nothing because "it's not my problem".

For years to come when you gas up your car, think of your small part in the big scheme that evades responsibility so effectively for everyone that nobody with a hand in things ever has to admit they have a hand in things. Just buy the gas and go. The gulf has oil in it. No big deal. The air pollution from burning fuel never mattered. The wars to control oil never mattered. The oil spill doesn't matter. What matters is that the car gets you to work. It's not your problem. You are not accountable because you only bought the gas, you didn't have anything to do with how it was made. The same way, the engineers are not responsible for the failure of the equipment they designed, operated and (failed to) maintain. They were just doing their job, not running the company.

The sad thing to me is that when you profess noble ideals then in reality pervert them, it creates a gulf of cynicism between intention and action. Men who could otherwise help will instead prefer taking revenge through inaction on a world they wrongly blame for their own failing to live up to the ideals of the profession that attracted them with promises of personal fulfillment had in the course of good deeds done.
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 514
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History
affordable ! take off you blinders,nothing could be more expensive than oil
Posted: 7/14/2010 11:42:45 AM
But... but smoking is a dirty habit.
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 515
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/14/2010 12:47:54 PM
Not to interrupt the ongoing debate of programmers, smoking, free markets and the rest BUT:

Now BP(no bigger pirate and terrorist exists in the WORLD) has negoiated the release of the bomber of Pan Am flight 103, so they can drill off the shores of Libya! How much more proof do we as just basic human beings need to see this corporation will do ABSOLUTELY any fuking thing to make money!!!

There should be a price put on Tony Hayward and the Board of BP's head. I know I would be happy to contribute! These people are scum, lower than dirt and care for nothing but their own well being as a company.

Further a little publicized event a couple of weeks ago. BP had rung off a section of the spill to "burn off". In that ring were several dozen, if not a 100 sea turtles. Despite the efforts of humane activists trying to get in there and get the turtles out before the burn took place, the coast guard and BP boats prevented it, and set fire to the oil and the turtles!

It's not enough that they have poluted the area the turtles lay their eggs, now they just would burn them alive.

Now you idiots can go back to complaining about programmers, price of oil in europe versus the US and the other horsesh1t you seem to want to debate. (sigh) You know, I'm beginning to believe some of you must work for the BP publicity machine, to avert everyones attention from what these azzholes are doing.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 516
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/14/2010 1:09:48 PM
Fixing the leak is an engineering problem.

I never said otherwise. You simply chose to not address the issues I mentioned with respect to your complaint that the problem has not been fixed yet. In general, I considers engineers to be a bit conservative in what they design, but even I recognize some rather important constraints on anything that could be seriously considered to be a fix.
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 518
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History
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/14/2010 3:31:30 PM

There should be a price put on Tony Hayward and the Board of BP's head. I know I would be happy to contribute! These people are scum, lower than dirt and care for nothing but their own well being as a company.

So you advocate vigilante assassination. That actually doesn't surprise me, given some of the nonsense I've seen you write on here.
 imalwayssmiling
Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 519
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History
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/14/2010 4:08:08 PM
Paul I find you entertaining ,your odd slant on how you think things work and how you misplace blame brings a smile to my face. I love this utopia you would love to live in where we have no rules or regulations with our biggest offenders and thats how you believe it would work unfettered.Let get rid of drinking ages and drivers licenses and drivings tests also while were at it. Silly meddling of the governments.Priceless.

I love the part where someone called howdy doody gets the blame for the actions of Lieutenant General Robert L. Van Antwerp head of the corp of engineers,BP's objections to other nations helping, claiming they will get in the way,and Energy Secretary Steven Chu, U.S. Geological Survey chief Marcia McNutt and other government scientists who have asked a series of questions to ensure that the integrity of the blowout preventer and the well itself are preserved.Somehow you think these people are Obama,odd in one breath you gripe that Obama doesn't have his fingers in every thing and in the other breath you gripe he won't stay out of these things,like telling others how to do there job.Real wishy washy,anyways thanks for the smiles
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 521
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/14/2010 5:26:58 PM
"That actually doesn't surprise me, given some of the nonsense I've seen you write on here."

So I guess you would give him and the board a raise, more stock options, perhaps a medal for service to our country. The man and the board by negligence, shortcuts and other intrigues, killed 11 men working on that rig. Now have freed a terrorist in order to get drilling rights.

I guess I'll look for your next post telling me about the parade your organizing in their honor!
 That Handy Man
Joined: 11/23/2008
Msg: 522
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/14/2010 9:11:29 PM
Reading about the burning of the Sea Turtles! I hope this civilization wipes itself out sooner rather then later!

I could care less, about the humans! They are almost ALL SCUM! If they are not guilty outright, they are guilty by virtue of their ignorance and stupidity!

If I could incinerate a few billion, I would! They deserve nothing less!
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 523
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History
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/15/2010 3:46:59 AM

So I guess you would give him and the board a raise, more stock options, perhaps a medal for service to our country. The man and the board by negligence, shortcuts and other intrigues, killed 11 men working on that rig. Now have freed a terrorist in order to get drilling rights.

Yes. The fact I don't condone murder is a clear indicator that I think they are deserving of sainthood.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 524
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/15/2010 6:44:04 AM

How come even our most corrupt presidents who were impeached will join churches but O'bomber will not?

Uh,... Joining a church is a sign of corruption?
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 525
The BP oil spill in the Mexican Gulf ...
Posted: 7/15/2010 7:54:47 AM
In answer to Random Entry:

1. "How come even our most corrupt presidents who were impeached will join churches but O'bomber will not?"

Try actually checking some facts. No sitting U.S. President has ever been impeached.

Impeachment *proceedings* have been instituted against two, namely Andrew Johnson and William Jefferson Clinton. Both were acquitted by the U.S. Senate. Richard Nixon never had impeachment proceedings instituted against him. He resigned first and then was pardoned by Gerald Ford.

Why does Obama's purported non-membership in a church matter if the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guarantees free exercise of religion? Oh, wait, church membership is the defining caracteristic of morality. I get it now.

2. Everyone victimized by BP's negligence should sue BP ruthlessly until all of BP's assets are basically owned by BP's victims.

3. Gas prices are higher in many countries due to taxation. Your accusation against Obama does not have any substance.

a. What promise about banking funds are you talking about and when was it made?
b. Americans are not getting a bulk discount on gasoline. The U.S., State and municipal governments are not taxing gasoline consumption at the same levels as it is taxed in other countries.
c. What "point" is it that Obama is supposedly making?
d. How is he seeking to "ruin America"? Is he personally responsible for an oil rig disaster?
e. How is this disaster going to make Obama 'rich'? How is it going to get him "other favors"? What, exactly, are you talking about? Be specific.

Without details, Random Entry, it looks as if you are determined to interpret every fact, or random speculation, as somehow establishing something negative about Obama.

If you are a Republican and dislike him for ideological reasons, say that and offer actual arguments, like William F. Buckley Jr.

Just because you are right wing does not require you to be less coherent than Rush Limbaugh on a painkiller binge.
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