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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" set for May 20th      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 76
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20thPage 4 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)

It wasn't canceled by students or the university, or any municipal, provincial or federal authority it was canceled by Coulter.

Her choice not to speak


Yes, same as it was the broadcaster's choice when it came to the episode of South Park. The point I was making is that it was threats of violence used totry & curb someone's free speech that is the problem. It doesn't matter who's making the threats
or what the person or group that is being threatened is planning to say; making the threats is an attack on free speech. If someone plans to give a lecture on a topic you find distasteful then don't listen to the talk. Using threats to curb their right to say those things is wrong.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 77
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/6/2010 9:09:15 PM
making the threats is an attack on free speech.

Who defines what a constitutes a "threat" that should be excluded from free speech then?

The broadcaster, like Coulter did not have their freedom to express themselves taken away, they gave it away by being cowards, that simple.

Why reward cowardice?

 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 78
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History
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/6/2010 9:14:36 PM

First, I was not "comparing" any one terrorist group against any other in the manner you imply,


ya you were...


Why would we go out of our way to offend the other muslims just to offend "the offended" when we DID NOT do this after free-speech suppressing terrorist bombings and threats by Jewish extremists (incidently, Jewish extremists are responsible for MORE terror attacks in the US than al-Qaeda)


You just said Jews threaten our freedom of speech by attacking us more frequently than Al Qaeda. It's right there. Seems a little crazy to me but like I said, use info however you want.


Second, a bomb is a bomb is a bomb... Whether it kills 1 or 100+1 is pretty much irrelevant if you, or a spouse or child, is that 1... If you're in the way, you're in the way...


Now that's just weird. If a hundred people are in the way is that the same as one person in the way? Would Hiroshimans agree with a bomb is a bomb? Strange concept. Also JDL was pretty much done with blowing stuff up in the mid eighties. It would be weird to still be afraid of them now. And also, the conditions leading to their actions were a little more aggravating than someone drawing cartoons of God. Not that that's okay, but it's true.


Explain to me again how how offending the vast majority who don't threaten or protest will make "the offended" shut up...?


It might make them think about it all a bit differently. Probably not. But you'd be amazed what people get used to over time. Desensitivity training might be good for them. I've still got my "Ayatollah Assholla" t-shirt. That worked for a while.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 79
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/6/2010 9:17:48 PM

You just said Jews threaten our freedom of speech by attacking us more frequently than Al Qaeda.

No, he said the JDF, ...and he's right. Just look at the Galloway debacle for an example of free speech being successfully curtailed by JDF influence over the Harper administration in Canada.

At least Galloway didn't take the coward's way out.

Al Queda never took away the creators of South Park's freedom of expression, their broadcaster did.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 80
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History
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/6/2010 9:47:57 PM

No, he said the JDF, ...and he's right.


Read what he said...


free-speech suppressing terrorist bombings and threats by Jewish extremists


Doesn't seem to mention modern day JDL which hasn't attacked anyone qith a bomb in 25 years. It does mention Jewish extremists and bombings though. I guess you can also interpret that however you want. Ask yourself this question, did the JDL threaten to kill Harper if he let Galloway in to Canada?


Al Queda never took away the creators of South Park's freedom of expression, their broadcaster did.


Holy semantical observation. Fine, the broadcasters took away Parker and Stone's freedom of speech just totally out of the blue.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 81
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/6/2010 10:34:05 PM

Ann Coulter was scheduled to speak at the University of Ottawa, but her talk was cancelled because of threats received frompeople opposed to her views.

It wasn't canceled by students or the university, or any municipal, provincial or federal authority it was canceled by Coulter.

Her choice not to speak, ...again, why do you reward cowardice?


I'm sure how stating that Coulter was threatened & chose to cancel the speaking engagment is rewarding her, perhaps you'd clarify that comment.

Here's the article from the newspaper:


OTTAWA — A protest by hundreds of students led organizers to cancel a Tuesday night speech by American conservative commentator Ann Coulter at the University of Ottawa.
A spokesman for the organizers said Coulter was advised against appearing after about 2,000 "threatening" students crowded the entrance to Marion Hall, posing a security threat.
"It would be physically dangerous for Ann Coulter to proceed with this event," said conservative political activist Ezra Levant inside the hall. "This is an embarrassing day for the University of Ottawa and their student body . . . who chose to silence her through threats and intimidation."
A protest organizer, international studies student Mike Fancie, said he was pleased they were able to stop Coulter from speaking.
"What Ann Coulter is practicing is not free speech, it's hate speech," he said. "She's targeted the Jews, she's targeted the Muslims, she's targeted Canadians, homosexuals, women, almost everybody you could imagine."
The announcement of the cancellation was greeted with shouts of "Shame" and "We want Ann" from about 100 people inside the hall. Outside protesters mockingly chanted "Goodbye Ann Coulter."
About 10 Ottawa police cars were called to the scene, but there were no incidents.

Coulter expressed her outrage, calling the University of Ottawa a "bush league" institution in an interview for The Washington Times.
"This has never happened before," she told the newspaper. "I go to the best schools, Harvard, the Ivy League and those kids are too intellectually proud" to threaten speakers.
Levant blamed the bedlam on university academic vice-president Francois Houle, who had written Coulter to warn her that Canadian laws make provisions for hate speech.

"Promoting hatred against any identifiable group would not only be considered inappropriate, but could in fact lead to criminal charges," he warned her in the letter, which Coulter quickly leaked to the media.

The university has refused to comment since. Levant said Houle's advice to Coulter had emboldened students to block her appearance.


Great comment there from that international studies student, Mike Fancie :

said he was pleased they were able to stop Coulter from speaking.

Nice to see how the banner of free speech is protected at our universities. He also goes on to state that Coulter's talk is hate speech.....

Now, free speech IS allowed in Canada, but hate speech isn't, so why didn't Mikey let her talk, then lodge a complaint against her with the appropriate federal Human Rights Dept? If it was hate speech, Ann would be charged, & if found guilty fined & /or imprisoned.

I guess Mike not only isn't a supporter of free speech, he also doesn't see the need for involving the justice system with the hassle of a trial & proving she's guilty. So much easier to just be judge & jury yourself.

What a beacon of enlightenment, glad to see he hasn't wasted his tuition & classes.
 MondoVman
Joined: 4/26/2009
Msg: 82
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History
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/6/2010 11:46:27 PM
http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/
"If you know of any other interesting depictions of Mohammed that you think should be included on this page, email suggestions ..."

Hmmm, a bounty of images and a request for more that may offend the easily? offend-able, but very definitely will offend the forum sycophants who too enjoy reveling in their exposed immature attempts at manipulating others.

Here Ye All - There are Others, not to be confused with the sycophants, who will, as told in this forum, exercise their wills. It's Our American Way. In your face? Yes it is.

Now again come the dissenting sycophants derisively demanding these Others only act to reverse the will of the First Party. Ha ha. Not funny.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 83
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History
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 1:25:39 AM
Ann Coulter wears a dress, though I would hardly consider her feminine, and she also spins tales for illiterates. What she does do though, is incite hate, where there needs to be none. The students exerted their democratic rights not to have their campus contaminated by a pathogen like Coulter.

As for illiterates, most people a couple thousand years ago were illiterate. Jesus resorted to parables to try to paint pictures that people could understand, as was the tradition of the day. Today there is no excuse for people believing in Prophets(profits) like Coulter, Dimbulb, and the folks who came up with Hate Islam Day.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 84
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 4:56:34 AM

Doesn't seem to mention modern day JDL which hasn't attacked anyone qith a bomb in 25 years.

Your right... It doesn't mention the JDL... but it does talk about Jewish extremists who HAVE engaged in the same kind of free-speech suppressing activity...

Of course, since you can't actually dispute that... So, you seem intent on focusing on the specific example of ONE SUCH group... A very disingenuous way of trying to rebut a generic example...

Wouldn't be any different than someone else disputing "muslim intimidation" by focusing ONLY on CAIR, for example, who have not threatened anybody...

Let's try it... The whole point of "striking a blow for free speech" is ludicrous since CAIR has never threatened a newspaper/tv station with violence... What are you complaining about...?

I know you THINK you have found something to "hang your hat on"... but it is just a deflection as it doesn't respond to the actual point... Which is, BOTH Jews and Christians have threatened publishers/broadcasters... And engaged in violence to censor them... And neither you nor any of the anti-muslim bigots supporting this have suggested deliberately offending them... In fact, you are going out of your way to defend NOT doing so...


Second, a bomb is a bomb is a bomb... Whether it kills 1 or 100+1 is pretty much irrelevant if you, or a spouse or child, is that 1... If you're in the way, you're in the way...



Now that's just weird. If a hundred people are in the way is that the same as one person in the way?

It's only wierd if you want to try and excuse some terrorists, who are like you, by suggesting "they aren't so bad" and vilify an entire religion, who aren't like you, as a "scourge", because they "hate our way of life"...

I'm sure how stating that Coulter was threatened

Ummm... The topic is "Everybody draw mohammed day"... Not Ann Coulter... Are you so desperate to save face after this being shown to be the juvenile, racist crap that it is that you will now try to hijack your own thread (with nonsense no less)...?
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 85
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 5:38:45 AM
Fine, the broadcasters took away Parker and Stone's freedom of speech just totally out of the blue.

No, via cowardice.

JDL (sorry for typo), not JDF.

Speaking of ACTUAL suppression of freedom of speech (not as a result of cowardice) by a terrorist organization:


By Scott Weinstein, Independent Jewish Voices (Canada)

An organization the FBI, the U.S. State Department and U.S. courts have branded a 'terrorist organization' has given advice to the Harper government that led Immigration Minister Jason Kenney to barring a British MP from Canada.

A Kenney spokesman said Kenney first heard about British MP George Galloway's visit from a Jewish Defense League letter, and contacted departmental communications staff at Citizenship and Immigration to prepare media lines.

The Jewish Defense League, categorized by the FBI as a “right-wing Jewish terrorist group”, was founded by US ultra-Zionist Rabbi Meir Kahane in 1968. The Jewish Defense League (JDL) wrote to the Canadian government March 16 asking it to ban Galloway. Mr. Galloway is scheduled to speak in four Canadian cities from March 30 to April 2 on "Resisting War from Gaza to Kandahar".

In the late 1960s, Kahane also founded the Kach political party in Israel, which along with Kahane Chai (Kahane Lives) were declared terrorist organizations in 1994 by the Israeli Cabinet. Kahane was shot dead in a New York City hotel in 1990.

The US State Department designated the JDL’s Israeli affiliates, the Kahane Chai and the Kach as “foreign terrorist organizations” – a decision upheld by a US Appeals Court. (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2006/82738.htm )

Kach member Baruch Goldstein massacred 29 Palestinians praying in the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron. The JDL is still active with Hebron’s Jewish settlers, most visibly remarkable for its hate graffiti such as: “Arabs to the Gas Chambers”. (see http://www.cpt.org/gallery/slideshow.php?set_albumName=album03 )

In a 1986 study of domestic terrorism, the US Department of Energy concluded: “For more than a decade, the Jewish Defense League (JDL) has been one of the most active terrorist groups in the United States....Since 1968, JDL operations have killed 7 persons and wounded at least 22.”

In 2001, the JDL’s leader, Canadian Irv Rubin and member Earl Krugel were convicted of planning a terror attack in California against an Arab American congressman. Rubin was also accused of planning bombing attacks on Concordia University and California mosques. Krugel was murdered in prison, and Rubin died in prison allegedly by suicide. This appeared to be the end of the JDL in North America after dozens of bombings, shootings and assaults.


Jewish group proud of role in barring Galloway
Updated Thu. Mar. 26 2009 8:00 AM ET

The Canadian Press

OTTAWA -- The Jewish Defence League of Canada is taking credit for lighting the spark that ultimately burned a British politician's plans to enter the country.

The organization advised the federal government early last week about the impending speaking tour of George Galloway, the controversial British MP who has been a bitter critic of Israel.

A letter - sent March 16 to Immigration Minister Jason Kenney, his cabinet colleague Peter Kent and opposition MPs - asked the government to keep that "hater" out of Canada.

"We asked that he not be allowed in," said Meir Weinstein, national director of the Jewish Defence League of Canada.

"Whether or not that had an effect on anyone - well, he's not in."

Weinstein said the letter "lit a fire" under other Jewish community leaders to protest the visit, to contact Canadian politicians, and write to newspapers about Galloway.

Four days later, Kenney's office confirmed the British MP would not be allowed into the country.


Of course, a government barring someone from speaking out about a brutal illegal occupation being perpetrated by an "ally", ...It probably doesn't compare to a broadcaster censoring its own broadcast of a cartoon, but ...what can you do?
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 86
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History
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 6:31:35 AM

Ann Coulter wears a dress, though I would hardly consider her feminine,


That's it. Fatwa for you!


Of course, since you can't actually dispute that...


Can so. Fatwa for you too.


JDL (sorry for typo), not JDF.


Too late. Fatwa for you. Double Fatwa because you spelled Al Qaeda wrong too.

[quote}BOTH Jews and Christians have threatened publishers/broadcasters... And engaged in violence to censor them.

Really? Examples? If so, that would also be evil and unacceptable. But in the case you've mentioned as your prime example, the letter that JDL sent to our government didn't mention anything about threats of death. I don't agree with it in any way, but they have every right to voice their opinion. I disagree only with the death threats.


No, via cowardice.


Riiiight. So the genesis of cowardice waaaaas.....? Death threats remember? So you're saying then that, since cowardice is a bad thing, they should have not censored themselves and thus should have aired the offensive cartoon? So draw Mohammed day is back on?


but it does talk about Jewish extremists who HAVE engaged in the same kind of free-speech suppressing activity...


I don't give an 'f about "free speech suppressing activities" like the liberal do gooders who ran Coulter out of town or the right wing do gooder Jews who wanted Galloway's boat turned around. You've got every right to oppose free speech in a non psychotic manner. Actually our liberal do gooders were pushing it a bit with Coulter. The reason, in this case, muslims really piss me off is the death threats. It's a night and day difference. As I've said before, it's psychotic, unrespectable, evil and will lead to much worse in the future. The example of George Galloway is not even in the same league. It was a letter, not a bomb. And no, the outcome isn't the same.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 87
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 7:17:51 AM

So the genesis of cowardice waaaaas.....?

Not from a terrorist organization, Al Qaeda or otherwise, the source was a Blog domestic to the USA, based in New York. Further, it wasn't a "death threat":


Death threats remember?


"“We have to warn Matt and Trey that what they are doing is stupid and they will probably end up like Theo Van Gogh for airing this show. This is not a threat, but a warning of the reality of what will likely happen to them.”


I don't give an 'f about "free speech suppressing activities" like the liberal do gooders who ran Coulter out of town or the right wing do gooder Jews who wanted Galloway's boat turned around.

Right, who cares about free speech? (what's this thread about again?)

The reason, in this case, muslims really piss me off is the death threats.

Interesting, so your objection is admittedly from confirmation bias, ie: judging a billion+ people for the actions of a tiny extremist fraction, ...even when there was no explicit "threat" ...bomb or otherwise.

As I've said before, it's psychotic, unrespectable, evil and will lead to much worse in the future.

See the blog entry in question (above), psychotic?

It was a letter, not a bomb.

It was a blog entry with the explicit distinction, "This is not a threat".
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 88
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 8:05:21 AM
WOW , You've actually been able to"legislate" EMOTION?
Thats impressive !
So , do you have a special "Thought police "?
Are they psychic ?
or do they determine your degree of malice by facial expressions ?

No, nice straw man though.

Here you go, replete with SPECIFIC definitions (no straw man needed), what constitutes "hate" is bolded (again, no straw man needed).


Advocating genocide

318. (1) Every one who advocates or promotes genocide is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.
Definition of “genocide”

(2) In this section, “genocide” means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part any identifiable group, namely,
(a) killing members of the group; or
(b) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction.
Consent

(3) No proceeding for an offence under this section shall be instituted without the consent of the Attorney General.
Definition of “identifiable group”

(4) In this section, “identifiable group” means any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.
R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 318; 2004, c. 14, s. 1.
Public incitement of hatred

319. (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of
(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
Wilful promotion of hatred

(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of
(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
Defences

(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)
(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;
(b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;
(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or
(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.
Forfeiture

(4) Where a person is convicted of an offence under section 318 or subsection (1) or (2) of this section, anything by means of or in relation to which the offence was committed, on such conviction, may, in addition to any other punishment imposed, be ordered by the presiding provincial court judge or judge to be forfeited to Her Majesty in right of the province in which that person is convicted, for disposal as the Attorney General may direct.
Exemption from seizure of communication facilities

(5) Subsections 199(6) and (7) apply with such modifications as the circumstances require to section 318 or subsection (1) or (2) of this section.
Consent

(6) No proceeding for an offence under subsection (2) shall be instituted without the consent of the Attorney General.
Definitions

(7) In this section,

“communicating”
« communiquer »
“communicating” includes communicating by telephone, broadcasting or other audible or visible means;

“identifiable group”
« groupe identifiable »
“identifiable group” has the same meaning as in section 318;

“public place”
« endroit public »
“public place” includes any place to which the public have access as of right or by invitation, express or implied;

“statements”
« déclarations »
“statements” includes words spoken or written or recorded electronically or electro-magnetically or otherwise, and gestures, signs or other visible representations.
R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 319; R.S., 1985, c. 27 (1st Supp.), s. 203; 2004, c. 14, s. 2.
Warrant of seizure

320. (1) A judge who is satisfied by information on oath that there are reasonable grounds for believing that any publication, copies of which are kept for sale or distribution in premises within the jurisdiction of the court, is hatepropaganda shall issue a warrant under his hand authorizing seizure of the copies.
Summons to occupier

(2) Within seven days of the issue of a warrant under subsection (1), the judge shall issue a summons to the occupier of the premises requiring him to appear before the court and show cause why the matter seized should not be forfeited to Her Majesty.
Owner and author may appear

(3) The owner and the author of the matter seized under subsection (1) and alleged to be hate propaganda may appear and be represented in the proceedings in order to oppose the making of an order for the forfeiture of the matter.
Order of forfeiture

(4) If the court is satisfied that the publication referred to in subsection (1) is hate propaganda, it shall make an order declaring the matter forfeited to Her Majesty in right of the province in which the proceedings take place, for disposal as the Attorney General may direct.
Disposal of matter

(5) If the court is not satisfied that the publication referred to in subsection (1) is hate propaganda, it shall order that the matter be restored to the person from whom it was seized forthwith after the time for final appeal has expired.
Appeal

(6) An appeal lies from an order made under subsection (4) or (5) by any person who appeared in the proceedings
(a) on any ground of appeal that involves a question of law alone,
(b) on any ground of appeal that involves a question of fact alone, or
(c) on any ground of appeal that involves a question of mixed law and fact,
as if it were an appeal against conviction or against a judgment or verdict of acquittal, as the case may be, on a question of law alone under Part XXI, and sections 673 to 696 apply with such modifications as the circumstances require.
Consent

(7) No proceeding under this section shall be instituted without the consent of the Attorney General.
Definitions

(8) In this section,

“court”
« tribunal »
“court” means
(a) in the Province of Quebec, the Court of Quebec,
(a.1) in the Province of Ontario, the Superior Court of Justice,
(b) in the Provinces of New Brunswick, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, the Court of Queen’s Bench,
(c) in the Provinces of Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland, the Supreme Court, Trial Division,
(c.1) [Repealed, 1992, c. 51, s. 36]
(d) in the Provinces of Nova Scotia and British Columbia, in Yukon and in the Northwest Territories, the Supreme Court, and
(e) in Nunavut, the Nunavut Court of Justice;

“genocide”
« génocide »
“genocide” has the same meaning as in section 318;

“hate propaganda”
« propagande haineuse »
“hate propaganda” means any writing, sign or visible representation that advocates or promotes genocide or the communication of which by any person would constitute an offence under section 319;

“judge”
« juge »
“judge” means a judge of a court.
R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 320; R.S., 1985, c. 27 (2nd Supp.), s. 10, c. 40 (4th Supp.), s. 2; 1990, c. 16, s. 4, c. 17, s. 11; 1992, c. 1, s. 58, c. 51, s. 36; 1998, c. 30, s. 14; 1999, c. 3, s. 29; 2002, c. 7, s. 142.
Warrant of seizure

320.1 (1) If a judge is satisfied by information on oath that there are reasonable grounds for believing that there is material that is hate propaganda within the meaning of subsection 320(8) or data within the meaning of subsection 342.1(2) that makes hate propaganda available, that is stored on and made available to the public through a computer system within the meaning of subsection 342.1(2) that is within the jurisdiction of the court, the judge may order the custodian of the computer system to
(a) give an electronic copy of the material to the court;
(b) ensure that the material is no longer stored on and made available through the computer system; and
(c) provide the information necessary to identify and locate the person who posted the material.
Notice to person who posted the material

(2) Within a reasonable time after receiving the information referred to in paragraph (1)(c), the judge shall cause notice to be given to the person who posted the material, giving that person the opportunity to appear and be represented before the court and show cause why the material should not be deleted. If the person cannot be identified or located or does not reside in Canada, the judge may order the custodian of the computer system to post the text of the notice at the location where the material was previously stored and made available, until the time set for the appearance.
Person who posted the material may appear

(3) The person who posted the material may appear and be represented in the proceedings in order to oppose the making of an order under subsection (5).
Non-appearance

(4) If the person who posted the material does not appear for the proceedings, the court may proceed ex parte to hear and determine the proceedings in the absence of the person as fully and effectually as if the person had appeared.
Order

(5) If the court is satisfied, on a balance of probabilities, that the material is available to the public and is hate propaganda within the meaning of subsection 320(8) or data within the meaning of subsection 342.1(2) that makes hate propaganda available, it may order the custodian of the computer system to delete the material.
Destruction of copy

(6) When the court makes the order for the deletion of the material, it may order the destruction of the electronic copy in the court’s possession.
Return of material

(7) If the court is not satisfied that the material is available to the public and is hate propaganda within the meaning of subsection 320(8) or data within the meaning of subsection 342.1(2) that makes hate propaganda available, the court shall order that the electronic copy be returned to the custodian and terminate the order under paragraph (1)(b).
Other provisions to apply

(8) Subsections 320(6) to (8) apply, with any modifications that the circumstances require, to this section.
When order takes effect

(9) No order made under subsections (5) to (7) takes effect until the time for final appeal has expired.
2001, c. 41, s. 10.


If you are familiar with Coulter, you can cross-reference section 318 with her previous statements, re: "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

So... that's "free speech"? and this:

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Islam."

....is a threat?




 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 89
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 8:27:23 AM
Not to be too picky ... But , shouldn't that be "Straw -person ?"


Why? The term itself isn't a metaphor for a "person" specifically, ...but an lifeless agricultural implement?

I suppose one could argue with the farmers on this one, if they wanted to first check said agricultural implements for anatomical correctness, ...before political correctness is even germane.

Now, quickly search Google images to find a "agricultural anthropomorphic figure made of straw for the purpose of frightening avian pests", wearing a skirt!

Now, in order to remain compliant with the topic of the thread:

Perhaps the more Islamophobic farmers can get their digs in by clothing one in Bedouin garb?
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 90
view profile
History
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 8:28:37 AM
OMG.."The reason, in this case, muslims really piss me off is the death threats.

AP...Interesting, so your objection is admittedly from confirmation bias, ie: judging a billion+ people for the actions of a tiny extremist fraction, ...even when there was no explicit "threat" ...bomb or otherwise.

OMG..As I've said before, it's psychotic, unrespectable, evil and will lead to much worse in the future."

bla bla bla..
The people who scream the loudest about death threats from a few radical Muslims, remain tellingly silent when the Hutaree threaten fellow citizens, when death threats directed at President Obama went up 400%, when legislators are threatened with death over health care reform, when we have a Joel's Army, Blackwater/xE and Oathkeepers, Christian Identity, and KKK in our midst, threatening death for all less than "perfect" citizens, when entire Christian congregations are praying for Obama's death, when US evangelicals muck about in Uganda to help set up death panels for LGBTs, Oklahoma City, Atlanta, women's health care provider, and IRS bombings and death threat, just to name a few domestic Christian terrorists. There is a profound lack of consistency in the outrage when it is our own doing the threatening. Guess which religion has killed, maimed, poisoned, burnt, tortured and threatened the most people...
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 91
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 9:29:52 AM
Ummm... The topic is "Everybody draw mohammed day"... Not Ann Coulter... Are you so desperate to save face after this being shown to be the juvenile, racist crap that it is that you will now try to hijack your own thread (with nonsense no less)...?


Sorta like your trying to hijack a thread (about "drawing mohammed" to p*** off Islamic extremists stifling free speech) by bringing up Jewish extremists having a larger percantage of attacks on American soil, perhaps?


The Coulter reference is appropriate since it's a comparison using a case of people using threats to stifle free speech.

But feel free to post examples of Jewish militants & Christian militants using threats to try & stifle free speech, those would be appropriate comparisons as well.

I see by your profile you are in Ottawa.... by any chance are you a student or faculty member at the University of Ottawa?

Save face? I don't know about you, but I'm not so thin skinned thatI really care what a lot of people on the internet ( people that I will probably never encounter in person) think of me. I merely started a thread that I thought would generate discussion, and at that I succeeded. If I wanted to start a thread that won't ruffle any feathers I suppose I could start a thread asking "so, what's the weather like at your place today? It'd be a pretty boring thread tho...
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 92
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 9:43:51 AM

They should have let Coulter speak, then hopefully they could have charged her with inciting racial hatred,



Exactly, don't stifle her right to free speech but let her speak & face the consequences of he actions. If her talk was determined to be a hate crime, she would be charged & if found guilty face fines & possible incarceration.

But some would rather use anonymous threats to curtail her speaking ( making them the judge & jury) then when she chooses not to speak give themselves high 5's for showing people how enlightened THEY are because they were able to keep someone whose views they disagreed with from speaking.

I guess in their view ( thru rose colored glasses perhaps?) "free speech" only applies to people who have the same views as they do, any other view is by their definition wrong.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 93
view profile
History
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 10:01:21 AM

bla bla bla..
The people who scream the loudest about death threats from a few radical Muslims, remain tellingly silent when the Hutaree threaten fellow citizens, when death threats directed at President Obama went up 400%, when legislators are threatened with death over health care reform, when we have a Joel's Army, Blackwater/xE and Oathkeepers, Christian Identity, and KKK in our midst, threatening death for all less than "perfect" citizens, when entire Christian congregations are praying for Obama's death, when US evangelicals muck about in Uganda to help set up death panels for LGBTs, Oklahoma City, Atlanta, women's health care provider, and IRS bombings and death threat, just to name a few domestic Christian terrorists. There is a profound lack of consistency in the outrage when it is our own doing the threatening. Guess which religion has killed, maimed, poisoned, burnt, tortured and threatened the most people...


Feel free to start your own thread. As none of the above is any good, you'd probably hear a whole bunch of silence or people agreeing that yes, actually all those things are bad. It's just that this thread only talks about this one thing. But thanks for assuming I'm just a pissed off redneck. So fire away.


Not from a terrorist organization, Al Qaeda or otherwise, the source was a Blog domestic to the USA, based in New York. Further, it wasn't a "death threat":


Actually I'm glad you mentioned that. Because you're right, telling someone they will likely end up dead if they do something couldn't possibly be a threat. Especially because they say right there in plain English "this is not a threat". They must have been idiots to assume such a thing. I mean even though the dictionary defines threat as


an indication of something impending


telling someone they will likely die in the near future if they do something isn't really a threat. I say this because I've got a wicked investment for you. It's a land development opportunity and you get to be a limited partner. It's just like actual ownership but better. You don't have to worry about maintenance, taxes, all that bad stuff. But you still get to tell all your friends you're a "land owner" in Florida. You can't find a safer investment. Just send a check and you're in.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 94
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 10:45:04 AM
I mean even though the dictionary defines threat as

"an indication of something impending"

Okay, in order to eliminate equivocation from the debate so as to exclude the possible [2] threat of intellectual dishonesty, let's look at sub-definitions in order to be SPECIFIC.

threat
noun
1 a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done

2 a person or thing likely to cause damage or danger
~ New Oxford American Dictionary 2nd edition


See, I was referring to sub definition 1 (see "intent" vis a vis "not a threat) , when you made the references to; " the death threats", "It was a letter, not a bomb" (um, what bomb BTW?), if you are now making the more specific claim of sub-definition 2, then the blog entry was still not the actual "threat" but the warning of its potential, as no mention was made by the authors of the blog that; they themselves were to be the means of "damage or danger".

So, which do you mean?
(or are you just equivocating...)
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 95
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 11:24:23 AM

"“We have to warn Matt and Trey that what they are doing is stupid and they will probably end up like Theo Van Gogh for airing this show. This is not a threat, but a warning of the reality of what will likely happen to them.”



So they sent this message because of concerns for Matt & Trey and wanted to warn them.

And they sent it anonymously so Matt & Trey couldn't contact them& thank them for their warning, how modest.

Amd of course if the ones sending the warning happened to be the ones that were a threat to Matt & Trey's safety, they wouldn't lie and say "this is not a threat", would they?
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 96
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 12:40:27 PM
So they sent this message because of concerns for Matt & Trey and wanted to warn them.

It was posted on a blog.

And they sent it anonymously so Matt & Trey couldn't contact them& thank them for their warning, how modest.

It was posted on a blog.

Amd of course if the ones sending the warning happened to be the ones that were a threat to Matt & Trey's safety, they wouldn't lie and say "this is not a threat", would they?

It was posted on a blog, ...no message was sent, anonymously or otherwise.

On a related note concerning this thread's topic, intent and "freedom of expression":


On her website Norris explains this is not meant to disrespect any religion, but rather meant to protect people's right to express themselves.


This IS about "freedom of expression", ...explicitly.

And (very "on-topic", and also concerning intent, as it's from the person who "started" this):

Hello:

I did not 'launch' an Everybody Draw Mohammed Day.
Because I make cartoons about current, cultural events, I created a fictional 'poster'.
I made this cartoon because South Park was censored by Comedy Central due to a 'veiled' threat from a radical Muslim website.
I made it because I was concerned about artists not being able to draw what they need to in America without fear.
I regret going on the Dave Ross radio show; my ego took me there and, not being clear on what it all meant, I let myself get side swiped.
I never started a facebook page about this.
I had no idea this cartoon would strike such a cord and go viral.
I never wanted or committed to leading a 'movement'.
Enough Mohammed drawings have been made to get the human rights/first amendment point across by now.
At this point they could only bother some Muslims who are not radical, i.e. the majority.
That is not helpful.
I say we call off the never-existing Everybody Draw Mohammed Day.
Do something positive and face to face instead.
If you are not Muslim, introduce yourself to one. If you are Muslim, introduce yourself to a non-Muslim.
Obviously we need to talk about all of this since my cartoon became such a big deal.
Thanks,

Molly


Just sayin'
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 97
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 2:12:45 PM

and aren't just saying that as a juvenile, tit-for-tat "I know you are, but what am I" kind of comment



So the rule is that you can make whatever accusations you wish, and if the person accused responds to your accusation with an equally valid example of you doing the same thing, they're making a " juvenile tit-for-tat" reply?

If it WERE "an equally valid example" you might have a point... But it isn't... Not even close... What it is, however, is a deliberate partial quote used in a disingenuous manner to make it APPEAR as if this were the actual point being made (which you have attempted to do several times when your point got 'shot down') rather than simply a parenthetical remark WITHIN an on-topic commentary...

To wit:

You are right... And what we don't "understand" is... Why would we go out of our way to offend the other muslims just to offend "the offended" when we DID NOT do this after free-speech suppressing terrorist bombings and threats by Jewish extremists (incidently, Jewish extremists are responsible for MORE terror attacks in the US than al-Qaeda) or after free-speech suppressing terrorist fire-bombing and threats by Christian extremists...?

At no point after any of that did we have a national "protest" designed to offend as many Jews or Christians as possible... Nor any serious effort to stage such a thing... Can you give me one good reason for that difference...? Can you explain why it is different with the muslims, other than due to utter and unadulterated bigotry...?

No...? I thought not...

What it was NOT, was an entire post that had no bearing on the "Na-Na-Boo-Boo, Look what I did, I HOPE you're offended! Whatcha gonna do about it, huh, huh?" topic of the OP's "draw mohammed day"...

And, I notice, you STILL haven't been able to provide a logical, mature answer to any of the questions about how this will ACTUALLY lead to the silencing of "the offended"...
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 98
view profile
History
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 3:04:50 PM
I can't for the life of me find one other Jewish terror group operating in the US. The plotted attack on the US congressman never took place so it has been a solid 25 years since anything Jewish lead took place in America. I mean, unless you think the secret Zionist government planned and executed the 9/11 attacks. So if you want to attack people for not doing their research you should be crystal clear on your own. Quit keeping all your "research" to yourself. What are the "several" other Jewish terror groups operating in the us targeting us citizens? Are the Jews taking over for real this time? I don't know and am clearly too dumb to do the research. Please help.

The whole thing about JDL is really stupid anyway. Of course JDL's tactics were wrong and just about as evil as anybody who would kill cartoonists. Just because you brought it up as a "see you guys are just hicks because all this other BS has been going on for years and you never say anything about it which obviously means you support it" doesn't actually mean I support other terror networks. If this were a thread about the JDL in the 1980's I'd be against it just like I am against killing cartoonists.

Logical, mature answer...okay, aside from desensitivity training which is actually a mature, logical, psychological treatment for illogical phobias, I'd suggest getting a group of people together drawing Mohammed on TV even would get more Americans involved with the story and perhaps noticing the next time evil sharia laws start to creep into civilized societies so that one day we don't have a more serious problem. So it may not lead to the silencing of kooky people, but it may marginalize them appropriately.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 99
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/7/2010 3:47:20 PM
The plotted attack on the US congressman never took place so it has been a solid 25 years since anything Jewish lead took place in America.

"Never took place" only because they were caught and jailed before it could be completed... Am I correct in assuming that, if the act is caught before it's committed then the perps aren't terrorists and the act isn't an act of terrorism (or attempted terrorism at a minimum)...? Then why all the hullabaloo over failed Islamic terror plots...? Obviously, by this standard, they aren't acts of terrorism and the perps aren't terrorists... Right...? Or does it depend on whether the perps are Muslim or not...? And the "death threats" shouldn't be an issue if they aren't actually carried out... Right...?
Just because you brought it up as a "see you guys are just hicks because all this other BS has been going on for years and you never say anything about it which obviously means you support it" doesn't actually mean I support other terror networks.

I NEVER said it means you or anyone supports those acts... Not even close... Your emotional investment is clouding your ability to parse the statement...

If I were to paraphrase my comments in the style you have it would have to be... "see you guys are just hicks because all this other BS has been going on for years and you never say anything about it which obviously means your support for offending Muslims who have never made a threat or engaged in intimidation/terrorism just to "thumb your nose" at the ones who do is at best juvenile and immature and at worst pure and utter bigotry"

If you disagree then perhaps you can show me where I HAVE said "you support those terrorists" rather than "this is a juvenile, immature "Na-Na-Boo-Boo, Look what I did, I HOPE you're offended! Whatcha gonna do about it, huh, huh?" school-yard tactic"...
Logical, mature answer...okay, aside from desensitivity training which is actually a mature, logical, psychological treatment for illogical phobias

Except... This is NOT a phobia... It is a religious conviction... And the vast majority of people who may support this "day" are neither trained in the application of desensitization as a therapeutic technique nor qualified to diagnose a phobic disorder (as evidenced by the reference to a religious conviction as a phobia)
I'd suggest getting a group of people together drawing Mohammed on TV even would get more Americans involved with the story and perhaps noticing the next time evil sharia laws start to creep into civilized societies so that one day we don't have a more serious problem.

Evil sharia laws...? Into "civilized society" (as in one that plays school-yard "sticking out your tongue to offend" games)...? If nothing else, your obvious willingness to refer to Muslim religious laws as "evil" shows that utter bigotry underlying this support for "draw mohammed day" (particularly when you fail to make the same characterization of Halakha, despite the acts of Jewish extremists, even though this is a recognized and accepted alternative to secular civil/family courts in the US... Again, why the double standard...? Why are Jews permitted their Beth Din as perfectly acceptable but it's "evil" to allow Muslims their Sharia court...?)...
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 100
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/8/2010 6:24:59 AM


Christian beliefs and symbols are violated everyday. On the same South Park episode, Christianity gets it just as bad.


Cultural differences, cultural "filters" (as another poster here often puts it). People have to respect , for instance, American cultural filters regarding things like citizens with firearms; that's a sort of sacred cow in many demographics in this country which it simply is not in many or most other countries. That's just an example of a cultural filter.

Now, with the Muslims (as opposed to Christians, Jews, etc) , some of theirs (in general) are things such as, they tend to be more religious in general than many modern-day Christians or Jews, and along with that goes the strong taboos against things such as pork, violating the Koran or the Prophet (depicting him visually is one way of violating him, to them).

So, I mean, yes there's freedom of speech here, we all know it and (most) want it, but we could also have the decency to refrain, IMO, from gratuitous insults or mockeries (whether in the name of simple freedom of speech -- which is not in reality being threatened here, let's be realistic --- or in the name of "art") of peoples' long-cherished religious beliefs or icons.

I just feel a mature society (generally mature at least) can do better. It still strikes me as adolescent , this need to rub it in these peoples' faces and openly depict their Prophet, or make mocking cartoons of Jesus or (so-called) "art" depicting Mary, etc etc. (IMO, that type of art is a shortcut to art for people who have low to no actual artistic talent but simply want to call themselves "artists"). Refraining out of neighborliness and decency is not , IMO, "capitulation to extremism".

The reasons the vast vast majority of Christians or Jews don't react the same when theirs are slandered or mocked is because of those "cultural filters". Generally, many are less religious overall than their Muslim counterparts in the first place. And many or most are from "Western"-type cultural backgrounds, where religion is seen today as something that can be poked fun at , or freely criticized if not lambasted, and so on. Another thing to bear in mind is that , technically speaking, Islam is the youngest cousin by far of the three Abrahamic faiths.

Look at the state Christendom was in when it was 14-hundred-and-some years old (so to speak). At that time, many Christians would have struck your head off as well for openly tarring Jesus or the Cross. I suggest that as time goes on and Islam (for lack of better terms) "ages and matures" a bit itself, perhaps even undergoing some sort of "reformation" in its own right, away from Koranic literalism and towards liberalism, one day in the future (who can say?), things may well change some. But that time obviously isn't now.

And, with US troops still occupying Iraq, and US and NATO troops occupying Afghanistan, hundreds of thousands of Muslim civilians dead and displaced as a result of the "war on terror", the average Muslim in the "Arab street" could be forgiven, IMO, for feeling that cartoonish insults against the Prophet are just one more kick at them while they are already down.
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