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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" set for May 20th      Home login  
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 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 151
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20thPage 7 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
Wrong. This isn't about silencing those who protest out of offense - it's about standing up to those who THREATEN VIOLENCE out of offense. Again, NOBODY is trying to silence the protesters... their speech is just as respected as the cartoonists' is... it's merely another way of saying that THEY won't be intimidated into silence by anyone else.

The message is - rant and rave all you want... but threats aren't going to prevent us from saying what we think needs to be said.

Where is it that you get the idea that someone saying "I'm going to ignore you" is the same as someone saying "I'm going to shut you up"...?
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 152
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History
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/12/2010 3:56:21 PM
RE Msg: 186 by SaharaM:

Considering that Mohammed is the founder of Islam, and if Mohammed is seen as stupid or selfish or something like that, then people would likely think that anyone who did what he said was a fool for doing so, then it would be defamation or false light against every Muslim in the world, about 1.57. billion people
You're misunderstanding the situation. This is not defamation. Yikes.
If you think it's not defamation or false light, go around your town saying that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and all the other Founding Fathers, were paedophiles. Watch what happens. Then tell me it's not defamation or false light.

RE Msg: 187 by RocketMan_Len:
The whole 'Draw Mohammed Day' is, essentially, a show of solidarity. It is intended to show that we, as a group, will not be intimidated into silence by people who seem to think that THEIR beliefs are the only ones that matter. While I will not be participating, I can understand and support those who choose to do so.

And to those who would argue that the concept of Free Speech doesn't include speech that offends... I would submit that this is the very ESSENCE of Free Speech - that everyone is allowed to speak their minds, no matter how repulsive we take it to be. I believe it was Voltaire who said - "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
I can understand your view. It makes a lot of sense.

However, I grew up in an area where people insulted others using humour all the time. I can tell you what I saw happened, not once, not twice, but many times.

Most people who were long-time friends would sometimes insult each other. Sometimes they'd insult each other back and forth, and say "That's our way of being friends". Other times, they'd overstep the mark, and then, their friend would say to them, "If you keep on, I'll hit you." Their friend would normally stop. But sometimes he got so carried away he forgot himself, and didn't. Then his friend would hit him, and that would wake him up. The person who got hit, would apologise. If the person who hit him apologised too, he'd say "Don't. I deserved it."

But a lot of people would insult people who weren't good friends with them. Sometimes, they would insult the other person till the other person got offended, and the other person would tell him to stop. If he stopped, fine. If he didn't, they would hit him.

Sometimes, people would say it's not OK, to answer an insult with a punch. That would end in one of 3 ways:

The offended person would agree, and just keep asking him to stop. But the person handing out the insults would up the ante. He would be more and more offensive to the person. He would start being offensive to others. But he would be most insulting to the person he started offending, and would get progressively more and more offensive. Eventually, he would start hitting the other person, and once he started hitting the other person, he would keep insulting the other person, but would also keep hitting the other person, and would become hit the other person with more and more force and more and more viciously. Now, nothing anyone would say would stop him. Eventually, the other person would either have a mental breakdown, move away from the whole area and have nothing to do with any of those people, and have nothing but bad things to say about all the other people with him, or he would lose it, and start throttling the person insulting and hitting him, until that guy was terrified of him.

The other thing that would happen would be that the offended person refused to see a reason to not hit him, and the others would all tell the offended person that they would not allow him to hit the other person, and would step in to defend the person insulting him. Then he'd go silent, would take the insults, until he just lashed out and without warning, stabbed the guy, and the guy ended up in hospital.

However, very rarely, the other people would step in, and say to the person insulting him, that if HE didn't stop, THEY would ALL hit him. Then he would shut up, and a few days later, would apologise to the other person for being such an a**hole.

Either way, the only thing that ever worked, was to either let the person being insulting, to get hit, and learn his lesson, or, to step in, and take on the person dishing out the insults. Anything else would escalate to something that no-one there really wanted.

So yes, we COULD all draw cartoons of Mohammed. But then, next time, they won't bother with a warning. They'll just wait until the programme comes out, and then they'll kill the makers of South Park. Then, we can jail them all we want. But no-one will consider making such a jibe for several years, not when they know they will die for it.

Is THAT what we want? Escalating the situation from death threats to full death?

The way to deal with speech that offends you is to start a dialogue, so that both parties can learn a little bit about the other. You DO NOT use violence, or the threat of violence, in an attempt to intimidate your opponent into silence. It does nothing but weaken your position, while strengthening theirs. If suppression is your only argument, then it's time to question the validity of your stance.
Yes. But we are parties in this too. If WE do not start a dialogue with the producers of South Park, then we are condoning what they do, and in the eyes of everyone else, we condone their jibes, because we agree with them, and if they weren't making them, we would.

We may not be making those jibes ourselves, and we may not be threatened ourselves as a result. But you can bet that those who are insulted look at us as scumbags even worse than them. They seem to not know or not care. We claim to know AND care, and do nothing to stop it. In the eyes of those who are offended, WE are the most evil people of all, and this is something I found true of the whitest non-religious agnostics around, who were being insulted for silly things, things that none of us care about all that much.

Yes, if WE are being insulted, WE should start a dialogue. But if we witness an insult to others, and we stay silent, then in their eyes, we are the ones most deserving of punishment. Next time ten of them get drunk together and they are all angry and looking for a fight, it will be US they start on, not them, and not all of us against all of them, but TEN of them against ONE of us, and they won't stop, not until the police come round the corner, or they see that they've gone too far, and that's usually several minutes after they passed that point. Often, it's when someone says "He's stopped moving", and they all stop, and there is deadly silence, because he's not moving, and he's not going to move again, not until the Resurrection.

Sure, we should ask what should be done. But we cannot make others do our bidding. We can only control ourselves. So all we can do, is to ask ourselves: What should WE do to make the situation better?

We COULD turn around to our Muslim friends and appeal to their better nature. I've done this before, and it does have an effect, provided the ones throwing out the insults aren't keeping on with the insults.

If they don't listen, we COULD try to stop these people. But I think we would be hard placed to find them, even if we arrested them, with more insults coming, I think there would just be more in their place, and we do not have enough jails to jail every Muslim in the world.

We COULD turn around to South Park and tell them that we are not happy watching a programme that encourages others to commit acts of violence, even if it's not right for them to do so.

If they don't listen, we COULD tell South Park that we won't watch their programmes, or any programmes by Comedy Central, until they stop doing things that are bound to cause violence and murder. They WOULD change their ways then, because they are making these programmes to make money, and they make money by ratings. If no-on watches their programmes, they'll go out of business.

We CAN change the world for the better. But it is pointless to try unrealistic options. We have to look at ALL the things we can do, and pick the ones that are bound to make everything better the most. In this case, that's telling South Park that if they don't play nice, we won't watch them or anything else Comedy Central makes.

We HAVE power to change the world for the better. Just not the power that most people cling to. Answering threats with more threats.

Above all, be rational. Not defensive.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 153
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/12/2010 3:59:49 PM
...it's merely another way of saying that THEY won't be intimidated into silence by anyone else


How effective do you think it would be to draw Mohammed? You've seen how certain forms of free speech have incited riots....this may incite another terrorist attack, but hey, the people drawing at least got to say they weren't going to be threatened or told what they could or couldn't do. I'm not saying you sit back and be dictated to by extremist groups because of the threat of terrorist attacks, but there are other ways of dealing with them, other than enflaming them with such childish expressions. Do you think they're at all concerned that you're expressing your freedom of speach and will say, "ooooooo, I guess they told us by drawing pictures, I guess we better back off now." It's not the most intelligent route to go. You'd be attempting to use complex thinking on those with a proven simplistic and twisted logic (read no logic). In the end, you can't tell who's goading whom into escalated retaliation.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 154
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/12/2010 4:46:25 PM

Wrong. This isn't about silencing those who protest out of offense - it's about standing up to those who THREATEN VIOLENCE out of offense. Again, NOBODY is trying to silence the protesters... their speech is just as respected as the cartoonists' is... it's merely another way of saying that THEY won't be intimidated into silence by anyone else.

Nonsense... If it WERE about only violence then it would be done in a way that actually targeted that extremely small minority and not the majority you say have the right to protest... There will be no impact on the minority, they'll see it as just another racist attack... Only THIS time they'll be right... The majority group you say have the right to protest will be equally offended... And this offense will be delivered deliberately and maliciously, for no purpose other than offense and it will be racist BECAUSE it's target is so intentionally broad... The only purpose to knowingly targeting a group so much larger than the minor few is to intimidate them into silence...

And, incidently... All this was covered in the last 8 pages... It might be more efficient to simply read back rather than going over the same ground that has already been covered... It's unlikely that repeating it will change the outcome but a new justification not previously presented might be more defendable...
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 155
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Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/12/2010 5:22:12 PM
What bugs me most about this is that it doesn't actually matter what the image of Mohammed is. It doesn't matter if Mohammed is a dog, cat, goat, flaming devil, Jesus or some heroic, idealized angel bopping around a medieval fresco. You did it, you die. You hang it on your own wall? Now you're really done for.

My earliest musical memory, likely not as sharp as it could have been, is of my sister getting stoned with her friends listening to The Wall. Nothing beats rocking out to...


Are there any queers in the theater tonight?
Get them up against the wall!
There's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me,
Get him up against the wall!
That one looks Jewish!
And that one's a coon!
Who let all of this riff-raff into the room?
There's one smoking a joint,
And another with spots!
If I had my way,
I'd have all of you shot!


I'm not comparing this to drawing Mohammed because this isn't religious. But it's offensive as hell. Yet the context is quite beautiful. But it doesn't matter if your cartoon of Mohammed is as ugly as these lyrics, or beautiful, or accurate, or justified, or if it condems itself in the end when the metaphorical wall falls down. You're just dead.

In January of this year The Met in New York trashed its collection of art containing the prophet's image.


Critics say the Met has a history of dodging criticism and likely wants to escape the kind of outcry that Danish cartoons of Mohammed caused in 2006.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/jihad_jitters_at_met_76yj3VNUy4hcRAnhOcPCHP#ixzz0nlPlDzfJ


We've actually been politely removing images of Mohammed from public display since the mid nineties. So, logically what we're left with is admittedly less meritorious and immature art. Normal muslims should be given credit for being able to tolerate what other normal people can and do everyday. So I'll support some form of art today (draw Mohammed), because we don't even know what the cartoons would look like because they haven't even been drawn yet, rather than no art at all.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 156
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Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/12/2010 7:13:00 PM
It is the fundamentalists of the Muslim faith that are actually keeping the original mandate alive concerning Idolatry. It is a Judeo/Christian ban on false idols that supports, in part, this aspect of their religion version. Harketh backeth.

“Thou shalt have no other gods beside me. Thou shalt not make to thyself an idol, nor likeness of anything, whatever things are in the heaven above, and whatever are in the earth beneath, and whatever are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them; for I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, recompensing the sins of the fathers upon the children, to the third and fourth generation to them that hate me, and bestowing mercy on them that love me to thousands of them, and on them that keep my commandments.”

Now, it is only the Muslims or Scientologists who may be chastised for their intolerance. After hundreds of years of witch burnings, the Crusades, the First Nations holocaust of the Americas and other chapters we conveniently choose to forget, we are again launching the new crusades against people who own "our" oil, and the brown brothers and sisters who held land here for thousands of years before Manifest Destiny.

This has nothing to do with religious superiority. It has everything to do with xenophobia, racism, attempts at control, pissing off a third of the world's population just because we have the nukes and troops all over the planet, and we cannot admit that capitalism is a huge financial, ethical, and moral failure experiment.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 157
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/12/2010 8:10:45 PM
But a generalist campaign would in most likliehood degenerate into a de facto "counter-threat" against people who never MADE a threat or THOUGHT ABOUT MAKING a threat.

Exactly the reasoning by so many people who think all Islamic's or Muslims are terrorists because of a crazed minority who are...and round and round it goes with the minority of crased terrorists thinking that all outside of their religion and beliefs are unworthy to live. It boils down to uninformed people who are unwilling to be informed. It's a crazy world...always has been and always will be.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 158
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Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/13/2010 5:05:06 AM
RE Msg: 200 by Earthpuppy:
Now, it is only the Muslims or Scientologists who may be chastised for their intolerance. After hundreds of years of witch burnings, the Crusades, the First Nations holocaust of the Americas and other chapters we conveniently choose to forget, we are again launching the new crusades against people who own "our" oil, and the brown brothers and sisters who held land here for thousands of years before Manifest Destiny.

This has nothing to do with religious superiority. It has everything to do with xenophobia, racism, attempts at control, pissing off a third of the world's population just because we have the nukes and troops all over the planet, and we cannot admit that capitalism is a huge financial, ethical, and moral failure experiment.
I quite agree. There is a HUGE amount of intolerance towards Muslims, Scientologists, and religious people in general. I don't think South Park is more intolerant of Muslims and Scientologists than anyone else, because they take the mickey out of everyone, including Richard Dawins. But there is a HUGE amount of intolerance towards Muslims, Scientologists, and religious people in general, and not towards "us", depending on who "us" is.

It's also a form of control, because it's morality being defined by what the government lets happen, and what the government is against. In Revenend Lovejoy's words: "Once something has been approved by the Government, It's no longer immoral."

Most Americans agree that it's moral to say "No taxation without representation". The fund to rebuild Iraq came out of the Iraq's own coffers, and BILLIONS were stolen from that fund by American contractors. Yet nothing was done to return the money, and those contractors were freed from any liability for it. That's Americans taking money from the Iraqi people, which is tax, with no representation for the Iraqi people. It's directly opposite to the founding principles of America!

All it shows us, is that Americans say "No taxation without representation, FOR AMERICANS". But for everyone else, it's OK to take their country's money, taxing the people, with no way for them to say "Stop".
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 159
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Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/14/2010 12:17:05 PM

The fund to rebuild Iraq came out of the Iraq's own coffers, and BILLIONS were stolen from that fund by American contractors.
Not sure what that has to do with the topic of this thread, but must say that the poster is correct.

Yuppers, it does appear that the folks who set up the puppet government there (in Iraq) no doubt benefited
the most from those "puppets". You put the people in office who will fill your pockets ... right? I mean that's
really not rocket science ...

http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=425
Iraq's oil money - US steals 80% of reconstruction fund

US GOVERNMENT CRONIES WALLOW IN IRAQ WAR BLOOD MONEY

The US puppet government in Iraq set aside billions of dollars for reconstruction, but 80% of it has somehow
gone missing in American hands. The US government is trying to brush-off serious complaints by
international aid organizations with hollow excuses.


As for the topic here ... I'm not religious in any way ... not just saying that to actually hide any real religious
background, just stating that because it's truly my religious background ... NOT RELIGIOUS.

In spite of that, I still respect others' religious beliefs and thoughts and just do not understand why some folks think
it's okay to keep stirring up the pot about this. I think it's despicable to have something like that going on.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 160
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/15/2010 11:20:12 PM
Well that is the real difference isn't it.

And in the long run this is really about intent.

I have already seen some of the attempts at this which have been puerile and malicious... but then again, I may have been just misreading there intent which was truly just to show solidarity with the idea - truly - that no matter what I may say, no matter how much I dislike it, I don't get to f**king kill you for it because it makes me mad.

And in the end, IMHO that's what the intent of this should be about...not juvenile revenge but solidarity with the cartoonists, with Theo Van Gogh (RIP, despite himself...) and with the countless men and women who have dared express themselves but have been silenced by the autocratic theocracies of fundamentalist extremist Islam spreading throughout the world...

And if it gives offense, well as many have already noted, Christians and Jews and most other world religions have seem to have gotten by being objects of fun for quite some time without marching in the streets calling for genocide... maybe try some of that on for size?

Who cares if it is juvenile and in the end amounts to nothing? Even if it is nothing more than base humour...although I think that might be giving the idea too little credit. If it gets a few over starched kaffiyahs in a knot, it's probably a good thing.

Get over your bronze age fairy tales...join the human race.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 161
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Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/16/2010 3:13:48 AM
This part of the new Crusades might have some credibility if it were not for the fact that most promoting it are the same ones whose snow balls start melting if we don't use the phrase "Merry Christmas" during the holly daze. The Moronic Whore (war) on Christmas crowd/aka Everybody Draw Mohammed Day could not care less about free speech. It's all about control, confrontation, and Crusades.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 162
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Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/16/2010 6:59:32 AM

This part of the new Crusades might have some credibility if it were not for the fact that most promoting it are the same ones whose snow balls start melting if we don't use the phrase "Merry Christmas" during the holly daze. The Moronic Whore (war) on Christmas crowd/aka Everybody Draw Mohammed Day could not care less about free speech. It's all about control, confrontation, and Crusades.


You're grasping at straws earthpuppy. But since you brought it up, maybe the same people offering to kill cartoonists will start killing people who say merry Christmas someday too.


A group of Toronto Muslims reacted with outrage yesterday after hearing that an Etobicoke mosque issued a warning to followers that wishing someone a Merry Christmas is like congratulating a murderer.

The notice went out on the Khalid Bin Al-Walid mosque's Internet message service on Christmas day, stating that congratulating non-Muslims on their festivals "is like congratulating someone for drinking wine, or murdering someone or having illicit sexual relations and so on."

Whoever wishes someone a Merry Christmas, it goes on to say, "exposes himself to the wrath and anger of Allaah."
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 163
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History
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/16/2010 8:16:42 AM

But since you brought it up, maybe the same people offering to kill cartoonists will start killing people who say
merry Christmas someday too.
Could be.

Not that I'd encourage it, but if that did start to happen maybe there'd be fewer people to make those of us who are
"non-religious" miserable. You know, knocking on doors, shoving that crap down our throat every time we turn
around ... insisting on prayers at work, prayers at community potlucks or BBQ's when they know there are non-religious
or people of other religious cultures in the room.

Don't the so-called Christians already do enough to antagonize non-believers? Do they now have to start antagonizing
people still more with anti-Muslim drawings?
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 164
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/16/2010 9:56:53 AM

It isn't simply Christians, or "so-called Christians" that are antagonistic to Muslims. No sense in creating extra controversy


And in many cases, those that are antagonistic towards them are that way because they use threats & violence to get their way & to get others to adapt to their views; not because they're Muslims.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 165
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/16/2010 10:06:09 AM
^^^ Game, set and match.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 166
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/16/2010 1:58:44 PM

^^Good point; however, those who sink to antagonism often sink to over-generalization, choosing to be antagonistic in a way that affects millions and millions of uninvolved Muslims.


"Am I my brother's keeper?"

Let's be sure not to do this.

Let's be specific about who the "accusations" such as they are, are leveled at.

Wahhabists and other more literalistic Sunni Muslims, primarily are the ones who adhere to more narrow versions of the hadith and literalistic versions of the Qur'an that prohibit images of the prophet. Further, these groups wish to marginalize and/or eliminate all other forms of Islam until only their form remains. They are, for want of a better term, the "Reconstructionist/Dominionist" type of Islam.

They have no love for Shiites, nor Sufis who generally want to be left to live and worship in peace. The US government has tacitly supported the Wahabbist madrasas by lifting up and supporting the house of Saud which has been funneling literally hundreds of millions of dollars into this xenophobic and militant branch of religion, worldwide in schools, arms and a mass media campaign.

These are the Islamic protesters you see demanding the extermination of Europeans or destruction in Norway over the cartoons.

Now my question is, is it in any way the responsibility of the moderates to disassociate themselves more than they have been? Juan Cole has been noted for saying that they in fact have been but that this has been tragically under-reported in the Western media. I don't doubt that this is the case, as having the mainstream media report this would be "bad for business." But as to Western Islamics, should the condemnation not be more pronounced and more out front?

Productively, there has to be a better way to show solidarity with the artist than just a free for all which will, sadly, attract the lowest common denominator of race-baiters - some examples I have seen are just that. Still, actual satirical political cartoons, well drawn, might not be out of order. And according to the article from "religionfacts" also not strictly prohibited unless you are a religious fanatic.

And frankly IMHO I don't think secular society owes any one religious group any more protection from satire than any other religion has been extended.

Take note of which religions get picked on in popular culture the least...the ones that don't have a brutal mythology/history of repression and exclusivity of culture and spirituality So far it is the desert monotheists and their offshoots that bear the brunt of the satire...

Wonder why that is?

Now where did I live that really tiny tiny fiddle...ah here we go...

*starts playing "Hearts and Flowers" very dramatically*

But "uninvolved"? I don't know if we can say one is truly uninvolved if they claim to espouse a religious belief and get upset when others are critical of it and defend those who commit crimes under it's name or fail to condemn said crimes. Whether Christian, Jew, Islamic, Hindu or Secular Humanist (not a religion) we are responsible for our own actions but if we adhere to a system then IMHO we also have some accountability to its adherence to by others who claim it as their own...especially when it is clear they are not acting remotely in accordance with those principles.

Now I could be very wrong...feel free to tell me how, I am just putting this out there, but I am not convinced that the idea of confronting this abberent and anti-social belief, even in this childish fashion is not entirely a bad thing, given that the belief itself is, frankly, childish, bullying and petulant, not to mention superstitious in the extreme.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 167
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/16/2010 2:40:38 PM
Now I could be very wrong...feel free to tell me how, I am just putting this out there, but I am not convinced that the idea of confronting this abberent and anti-social belief, even in this childish fashion is not entirely a bad thing, given that the belief itself is, frankly, childish, bullying and petulant, not to mention superstitious in the extreme.


I agree, however in this case, the trigger was a blog comment on a NY based website, ...not a declaration by a mad cleric or terrorist organization, ...a blog comment by an individual.

I still see the broadcaster being guilty of cowardice here (a blog comment!), in pulling the South Park episode. There's your suppression of freedom of expression right there.

You know me bro', ...I have as much reverence for the icons of any of the flavors of the Abrahamic club sandwich as I do for Zeus (well, ...maybe slightly less, Zeus is pretty cool). But I also detest people claiming an honorable motivation, re: "freedom of speech" when the culprit is a corporate entity caving to the perceived implied-threat of a single contributor to a US based blog (the comment was pulled from the blog, ...neat eh?)

Yes, freedom of expression was stifled, ...but by Comedy Central, ...they're the culprit here, not a billion+ Muslims.
 whiskeypapa
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 168
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/16/2010 2:42:27 PM
Thumbing ones nose while chanting nahnah booboo at an entire system of belief is not confronting the few who discredit it. It is childish and a bad thing and does not advance humanity.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 169
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History
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/16/2010 3:14:36 PM
madfiddler.."Now my question is, is it in any way the responsibility of the moderates to disassociate themselves more than they have been? Juan Cole has been noted for saying that they in fact have been but that this has been tragically under-reported in the Western media. I don't doubt that this is the case, as having the mainstream media report this would be "bad for business." But as to Western Islamics, should the condemnation not be more pronounced and more out front?"

You are correct that mainstream Muslims have condemned the extremist branches, and correct that the Western Media refuses to report these efforts in any meaningful or fair and balanced manner. CAIR has been upfront in these condemnations for many years, but I have yet to see one reference in any of the MSM.
As noted on their website they are "condemning terror to the deaf".
http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx
"The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has a clear record of consistently and persistently condemning terrorism. Yet American Muslim groups like CAIR get repeatedly asked the question why have Muslims not spoken out against terrorism? The fact is they have, but who is listening? This prompted one media commentator to ask, “Are Muslims condemning terror to the deaf?”"
There is only about a quarter million Google hits on "Muslim leaders condemn terrorism".
Here's a quick one with links.
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Madfiddler.."Now I could be very wrong...feel free to tell me how, I am just putting this out there, but I am not convinced that the idea of confronting this abberent and anti-social belief, even in this childish fashion is not entirely a bad thing, given that the belief itself is, frankly, childish, bullying and petulant, not to mention superstitious in the extreme."

We love to forget the little fact that it is our military presence around the world and in Muslim holy lands in particularly, that is the main driver, and recruiter of terrorists. We reacted precisely wrong in the aftermath of 9/11 when global sympathy was on our side. We squandered that sympathy by upping the bully mode and occupying yet more Muslim lands, killing and maiming millions, doing bin Laden's job for him in swelling the ranks and rage of the extremist factions. I've not seen any Western leaders condemn our terrorism in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and other Drone prone countries. It this condemnation under-reported as well?

To allow our xian fundie crazies to fall down to the level of the fundie crazies of Islam plays into their hands in dividing the US from the entire Muslim world and will only serve as yet another perfect recruiting tool. This tactic would also play into the hands of Christian Dominionists/Reconstructionists who are salivating at the prospect of nuking the Muslim world and bringing on our fundies' childish, bullying, petulant and extreme end times superstitions upon the rest of us and the world. Throwing oil on the fire right now instead of maintaining the high road is hardly a productive solution.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 170
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/16/2010 3:27:44 PM
To alpha, whiskey and earthpuppy,

Good responses, and I think these answers put things into perspective. It's very hard for us to cry foul when it is 50 years of post-cold war Imperialism that has created the pre-existing conditions for hostility to begin with...

Never mind the Crusades, The British and American history of Imperialism in Islamic Lands in the Near and Far East before WW2...the list goes on and on...

Chickens coming home to roost indeed...

And in that perspective...a day of drawing cartoons is really quite petty. A day, or better still a month of boycotting all Viacom products and services would send a clearer and more effective message.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 171
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/16/2010 3:46:02 PM

Good point; however, those who sink to antagonism often sink to overgeneralization, choosing to be antagonistic in a way that affects millions and millions of uninvolved Muslims.


True, but not all do sink to overgeneralization. It's almost guaranteed that any opinon you can have ( or action you could take or not take) will offend someone.

Bombs detonated by terrorists ( Muslim or otherwise) don't discriminate either.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 172
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/16/2010 3:46:41 PM

Bombs detonated by terrorists ( Muslim or otherwise) don't discriminate either.

Hmmm... whose bombs kill more people, ...anyway.

Some blog poster?

Chickens coming home to roost indeed...

Now we're talkin' turkey


A day, or better still a month of boycotting all Viacom products and services would send a clearer and more effective message.

Oh snap!!!

After all, it isn't the Muslim extremists (or blog commentators) who have control over what media we get to see, is it?
Viacom

BET NETWORKS
BET
MTV NETWORKS
ATOMFILMS
ADDICTINGGAMES
CMT
COMEDY CENTRAL
GAMETRAILERS
HARMONIX
LOGO
MTV
MTV2
MTVN INTERNATIONAL
MTVU
MTV TR3S
NEOPETS
NICKELODEON - NICK JR.
NICK AT NITE
PARENTSCONNECT
RHAPSODY
SHOCKWAVE
SPIKE
TeenNick
TV LAND
VH1
VH1 CLASSIC
VIRTUAL WORLDS
XFIRE

PARAMOUNT PICTURES CORP
PARAMOUNT PICTURES
PARAMOUNT VANTAGE
MTV FILMS
NICKELODEON MOVIES
HOME ENTERTAINMENT

Fuck 'em!

Watch PBS (and donate often)
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 173
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/16/2010 4:48:09 PM

PARAMOUNT PICTURES CORP
PARAMOUNT PICTURES

Oh God... NOT Paramount...!!!

Boycott everything else, just not Paramount (hint: we want another Star Trek movie)...
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 174
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/17/2010 7:22:20 AM
I see another of my posts has mysteriously "disappeared" from this censorship thread so I'm outta here.
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 175
Everybody Draw Mohammed Day set for May 20th
Posted: 5/22/2010 9:26:48 AM
Better check again. I found about *ten* pages labeled 'Draw Mohammed Day' - one with twelve thousand fans, and over eight thousand drawings. Far from taken down, the operator of the page has vowed to keep it open indefinitely (although taking a break for the weekend, due to overload...) and invites people to submit drawings all year long.

That somewhat restores MY faith in humanity - that people are willing to stand up to the bully-boy tactics of death-threats and riotous demonstrations, and say that we will freely speak our minds, no matter how much pressure you put on us to stop.

As one YouTuber put it - when the demonstrators stomp on and burn the flag of another nation, they're doing it to DELIBERATELY provoke and offend. Why is it permissible for them to do so, while simultaneously saying that it's NOT permissible for anyone to offend THEM?
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